Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[Martin]

Rotom-W A --> A+

This is my first time nominating something, so this probably won't be perfect. Rotom-W is for me definetly A+ rank material. With only one weakness and solid defenses, Rotom-W can tank hits from so many things. Grass is not the best offensive typing to say the least, and essentially the only Grass-types to look out for are Seprerior and Venusaur. You can easily Volt Switch away from Venusaur, and carrying a counter or hard check to Serperior is not that hard (Mega Venusaur, Heatran, and Tornadus-T to name a few).

Rotom-Wash @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Volt Switch
- Will-O-Wisp
- Hydro Pump
- Pain Split

This is the basic defensive set, and is what I think is the best. Let me just list the S and A rank Pokemon I mean it walls (I've probably overlooked some): Azumarill, Heatran, Landorus-T, Bisharp, Talonflame, Tornadus-T, Gyarados (Not mega), Pinsir, Skarmory, Sand Rush Excadrill. That is quite a few Pokemon. My point here is that Rotom-W walls a ton of things, and there are almost no neutral hits that can OHKO it (A few exceptions like Specs Draco from Hydreigon, and Specs Hyper Beam from Sylveon). This little washing machine will as good as always get of something, if it's a Will-O-Wisp, a Volt Switch, or you can get your health back up with Pain Split. If you struggle with status like Toxic, easy enough, just run Rest or include a status absorber. With how often you Volt Switch, Toxic damage racking up probably won't be too much of a problem anyways. I am aware of that Rotom-W often can get worn down quickly by some powerful hits, but a Pain Split at the right time can quickly get you up to over 50 % HP, especially as Rotom-W has a low base HP. I don't really feel like Rotom-W needs any big amount of team support, you just need something that resists Grass and stops Earthquake from Mold Breaker Excadrill, and most teams fill these criterias already by simply having a Flying-type, as most Flying-types resist Grass. I don't feel like it really has that many big flaws, other than the fact that it could get worn down in not too many rounds if it has to take too many powerful hits, and does not get off a Pain Split or Rest. On the suspect ladder I have met it in actually like 40 % of all teams, and it is really anoying to deal with even though I have Mega Venusaur and Mold Breaker Excadrill to deal with it.

Volt Switch can be blocked by Ground-types but they often struggle if you predict the switch and go for Hydro Pump as shown by these calcs against Ground-types:

0 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 350-414 (96.9 - 114.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 294-348 (76.9 - 91%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (Defensive Landorus-T)
0 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 296-350 (92.7 - 109.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (Choice Scarf Landorus-T)
0 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 282-332 (67.1 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 372-440 (103.6 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I don't really have anything else to add from my head, but I feel like I have kind of proven why Rotom-W should be A+. I don't really see what puts Rotom-W behind all the A+ Pokemon, and therefore I think it should rise to A+. To finish it off here are some defensive calcs:

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 254-300 (83.8 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 123-145 (40.5 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Landorus-T Superpower vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 97-115 (32 - 37.9%) -- 0.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 81-96 (26.7 - 31.6%) -- 33.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 117-138 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 102-121 (33.6 - 39.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 83-99 (27.3 - 32.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Rotom-W is really not on the same level as the stuff in A+. In any decently built team, chances are you will have prepared for it without even trying. While the same applies to Garchomp, Rotom-W is only ever going to be running the same moves with literally 1 slight variation regarding its recovery. Beyond being naturally checked on teams and being INSANELY predictable, it is worn down really quickly due to its susceptibility to status and lack of reliable recovery. While I agree the utility of a slow Volt Switch and Will-O-Wisp is big, the low speed which makes it appealing is, in fact, a double-edged sword. I have often found much to be desired from Rotom-W's speed. While this can be fixed somewhat by creeping to benchmarks such as 44 speed, this comes at the price of losing momentum v.s. other Rotom-Ws' Volt Switches. This is completely detrimental to the Pokémon's success, and it means that it can be very easily played around using substitute. Rotom-W is one of those glue 'mons that can fit onto most archetypes due to its role covering a fair number of points while fulfiling its role rather well, but when compared to the more specific roles of the stuff in A+ it simply isn't on the same level as them. Finally, you can chuck as many calcs in our faces as you want, but the calcs you have given don't really help your cause either. Firstly, I would have never guessed that a STAB super effective base 110 attack would do a lot of damage to Pokémon who thrive either on their offensive stats or their physical defense. Also, the calc for Mamoswine is under the assumption that you don't get bopped by a Freeze Dry upon switch-in - which 2HKOs Rotom-W for the record, meaning it can't switch in on it. In addition, most of the defensive calcs you have given show Rotom taking hits which it is either blatantly obvious it will take well (Talonflame, Sand Rush Excadrill), won't be in a fit state to take by the point of the game it is at (itemless Azumarill (I assume that is Sitrus for Belly Drum, in which case it will most likely be boosting when you come in regardless), Pinsir Close Combat), under the assumption that they are not boosted (all), is not being boosted by an item (Azumarill, Landorus, Mold Breaker Excadrill), is no longer taken well after Stealth Rock and/or only a little prior damage (Mold Breaker Driller, Azumarill, Bisharp, Pinsir) or is based upon what is now a mostly (strong emphasis on that) irrelevant set (offensive Mold Breaker Excadrill, Choice Band Talonflame). There are probably more holes in your argument, but I'm too lazy to pick at them; however I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of the people that make posts in this thread agree with me when I say that Rotom-W should stay in A.

 

[green gadgets]

Garchomp should be S Rank

I doubt that a Pokemon with a quad weakness will ever see S-Rank. It's too easy to cripple/OHKO. It's still good in A+.

I can be wrong but is Physically Rotom-W not outclassed by Specially Defensive Rotom-W?

 

[Martin]

I can be wrong but is Physically Rotom-W not outclassed by Specially Defensive Rotom-W?

Nah. Physically Defensive is still its best set on the basis that it allows it an easier time checking the main things it is trying to check (namely Talonflame, non-Mold Breaker Excadrill, M-Metagross (lol 20bp Grass Knot op) and other physical attackers).

 

[green gadgets]

Nah. Physically Defensive is still its best set on the basis that it allows it an easier time checking the main things it is trying to check (namely Talonflame, non-Mold Breaker Excadrill, M-Metagross (lol 20bp Grass Knot op) and other physical attackers).

Okay my bad. Still, it's too predictable to be A+.

 

[Deleted User 268985]

Shedinja deserves a ranking, at least D rank but he could go even higher. ORAS gave him an incredibly useful partner in M-Sableye, who is the only defensive magic bouncer in the game. Having a magic bouncer and a defogger on the team means Sheddy can pretty consistently switch in without worrying about hazards. This means Shedinja is the ultimate pivot. He has immunities to types that no other Pokemon can claim, such as ice and fairy. There are plenty of mons with popular sets who can't touch him at all.

On his own, he doesn't do much damage, but the very threat of Shedinja on the team forces your opponents to play differently. If they have, say, 2 mons who can't touch Shedinja at all, they are basically playing 4 on 6 and will start to make aggressive predictions to try and get around Shedinja. You can exploit this by teaming Shedinja up with pivots who use u-turn and volt switch to ease prediction and control the flow of the game (unfortunately due to baton pass clause you can't use other baton passers as pivots; this is a lame rule and I think should be changed to allow baton pass on multiple mons as long as stats are not being passed, but that's for another thread).

Here is a replay showcasing the Shed in action:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-236794017

As you can see, I had a pretty bad match up in this game (he had Tyranitar + Garchomp, which means with Tyranitar's sand stream, and the threat of Garchomp's recoil damage, Sheddy couldn't stay in for more than a turn or use any attacks until both of those guys were dead). I was able to turn the tides due to smart plays involving Shedinja. The spin block on turn 14 allowed me to keep rocks up for the entirety of the game, and obviously being able to WoW Dragonite while it was locked into outrage completely eliminated him as a threat.

This is the set I'm using:

Shedinja @ Focus Sash
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Sneak
- X-Scissor
- Will-O-Wisp
- Baton Pass

All of these moves are moves I consider essential. X-Scissor is your go-to STAB, shadow sneak is for cleaning, WoW is to hit switch-ins, and baton pass allows you to act as a pivot and ease prediction. Baton pass is the most important move on the set because it also lets you scout. I have heal bell on this team, so if Shedinja stays in on something that uses an unexpected toxic, but I baton pass on that same turn, I can use heal bell to clear the status and Shedinja lives to fight another day. Baton pass also allows you to avoid sandstorm damage more easily. If someone switches in Tyranitar while Shedinja attacks, your poor Shedinja dies at the end of the turn to sandstorm and there's nothing you can do. But if Shedinja switches into, say, a hydro pump from Keldeo, then Shedinja can use baton pass on the same turn that the Keldeo user switches to Tyranitar to avoid the sandstorm damage. This also makes predicting a lot easier. You don't have to wonder "is he going to leave Keldeo in assuming that I switch, or is he going to go to Tyranitar to kill me?" Simply click baton pass and you win that scenario no matter what happens.

Also: focus sash > lum berry because it lets you stay in on Weavile and kill him with x-scissor. If you use lum, Weavile will checkmate you with pursuit every single time.

 

[That Grammar Terrorist]

Shedinja deserves a ranking, at least D rank but he could go even higher. ORAS gave him an incredibly useful partner in M-Sableye, who is the only defensive magic bouncer in the game. Having a magic bouncer and a defogger on the team means Sheddy can pretty consistently switch in without worrying about hazards. This means Shedinja is the ultimate pivot. He has immunities to types that no other Pokemon can claim, such as ice and fairy. There are plenty of mons with popular sets who can't touch him at all.

On his own, he doesn't do much damage, but the very threat of Shedinja on the team forces your opponents to play differently. If they have, say, 2 mons who can't touch Shedinja at all, they are basically playing 4 on 6 and will start to make aggressive predictions to try and get around Shedinja. You can exploit this by teaming Shedinja up with pivots who use u-turn and volt switch to ease prediction and control the flow of the game (unfortunately due to baton pass clause you can't use other baton passers as pivots; this is a lame rule and I think should be changed to allow baton pass on multiple mons as long as stats are not being passed, but that's for another thread).

Here is a replay showcasing the Shed in action:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-236794017

As you can see, I had a pretty bad match up in this game (he had Tyranitar + Garchomp, which means with Tyranitar's sand stream, and the threat of Garchomp's recoil damage, Sheddy couldn't stay in for more than a turn or use any attacks until both of those guys were dead). I was able to turn the tides due to smart plays involving Shedinja. The spin block on turn 14 allowed me to keep rocks up for the entirety of the game, and obviously being able to WoW Dragonite while it was locked into outrage completely eliminated him as a threat.

This is the set I'm using:

Shedinja @ Focus Sash
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Sneak
- X-Scissor
- Will-O-Wisp
- Baton Pass

All of these moves are moves I consider essential. X-Scissor is your go-to STAB, shadow sneak is for cleaning, WoW is to hit switch-ins, and baton pass allows you to act as a pivot and ease prediction. Baton pass is the most important move on the set because it also lets you scout. I have heal bell on this team, so if Shedinja stays in on something that uses an unexpected toxic, but I baton pass on that same turn, I can use heal bell to clear the status and Shedinja lives to fight another day. Baton pass also allows you to avoid sandstorm damage more easily. If someone switches in Tyranitar while Shedinja attacks, your poor Shedinja dies at the end of the turn to sandstorm and there's nothing you can do. But if Shedinja switches into, say, a hydro pump from Keldeo, then Shedinja can use baton pass on the same turn that the Keldeo user switches to Tyranitar to avoid the sandstorm damage. This also makes predicting a lot easier. You don't have to wonder "is he going to leave Keldeo in assuming that I switch, or is he going to go to Tyranitar to kill me?" Simply click baton pass and you win that scenario no matter what happens.

Also: focus sash > lum berry because it lets you stay in on Weavile and kill him with x-scissor. If you use lum, Weavile will checkmate you with pursuit every single time.

I still am not convinced that Shedinja deserves a spot, it still requires too much team support and has minimal payoff. Yes, you spinblocked and Will-O-Wisped a dragonite, but can't that be achieved by any other ghost type that has a lower risk and higher reward? EG: Gengar, Mega Sableye, etc.

Plus, Gengar can also use a focus sash and has a more notable offensive presence, so the things that normally check it can still be weakened by the appropriate coverage move. (Focus blast nails Bisharp and Tyranitar, icy wind nails Landorus, etc.)

You're also using prediction with baton passing out as an argument, but, if Tyranitar just even switches in, you've lost a teamslot, like if you're trying to will-o-wisp a dragonite, and tyranitar switches in, etc.

Plus, the usage moves that hit Shedinja super effectively are still at a high level, Bisharp is very common, so is Special Mega Altaria with Fire Blast, Scarf/Banded Landorus-T with Stone edge, etc.


That's why I suggest we keep Shedinja unranked.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

I'm honestly having a difficult time imagining Garchomp in any other place than S rank

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are the pinnacle of the OU metagame. These Pokemon are able to perform a variety of roles very effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits. These Pokemon define the meta

"Reserved for Pokemon that are the pinnacle of OU the OU metagame"

The current usage statistics for the 1825 OU ladder is:

Garchomp at number one with 26.3% usage

The current usage statistics for the 1696 OU ladder is:

Landorus-Therian at number one with 22%

Garchomp at second place with 20%

The current usage statistics for the 1500 OU ladder is:

Garchomp at seventh place with 14%

The current usage statistics for the 0 OU ladder is:

Garchomp at seventh place with 13%


This tells us a couple of things. The higher you get on the ladder the more Garchomps you'll be seeing, which again means that more experienced players know how beneficial Garchomp is and use it. Looking at the usage statistic we can also see that none of the other S ranks even come close to this, they're placed at 16 for Clefable, 20 for Landorus-I, 23 for Altaria and 25 for Metagross going by the 1825 ladder. I'm going to go hard into the usage of Garchomp right now, so this will be a long post but I don't know how to /hide in this format because I suck, so sorry in advance.


The argument I was trying to make that Garchomp really is the pinnacle of OU right, it's the highest by usage stat in the high ladder.

These pokemon are able to preform a variety of roles effectively, or just one extremely well.

Looking at the moveset of Garchomp you can see variety of roles, it's most common move is Earthquake, followed by SR, Fire blast and then Dragon tail. That's your Tank chomp lead right there, or your lum lead. You can truly never expect what it'll run as its least likely move is Dragon claw at 12%. Which again means that it can run a plethora of different sets but it's excellent as an offensive stealth rocker and lead

Moves
Earthquake 99.677%
Stealth Rock 87.536%
Fire Blast 52.524%
Dragon Tail 39.030%
Draco Meteor 24.304%
Toxic 21.964%
Outrage 21.429%
Swords Dance 21.095%
Dragon Claw 12.869%
Other 19.571%

Items
Rocky Helmet 63.429%
Lum Berry 12.330%
Choice Scarf 6.144%
Life Orb 5.902%
Focus Sash 5.038%
Garchompite 5.025%
Other 2.133%

Garchomp has low risk high reward.

Why wouldn't you want to use Garchomp as your stealth rocker on offensive teams? It beats Mega Sableye, it's fast and it's powerful. It can also use multiple sets without taking up opportunity cost, it stacks few weaknesses that are all resisted by steel. It can be used as a wall, tank, pivot, stealth rocker, sweeper, scarf, support.

Garchomp has very few flaws that are patched up by its numerous positive traits

Garchomps weakness is, it's pressured by a couple pokemon in the tier, It's weak to ice... Yes, there's more weaknesses but they were covered better by AM and others so they're there but not nearly enough to put overlook its amazing features in the metagame.

Garchomp defines the metagame, Garchomp is on over 26% of teams in the high ladder, might not seem much but it's amazing when you consider how many viable pokemon there are. Garchomp can fit multiple playstyles and will always have a place in the high rankings of OU. Garchomp is uncounterable and is easily a pokemon that you should prepare for.

 

[Deleted User 268985]

I still am not convinced that Shedinja deserves a spot, it still requires too much team support and has minimal payoff. Yes, you spinblocked and Will-O-Wisped a dragonite, but can't that be achieved by any other ghost type that has a lower risk and higher reward? EG: Gengar, Mega Sableye, etc.

Plus, Gengar can also use a focus sash and has a more notable offensive presence, so the things that normally check it can still be weakened by the appropriate coverage move. (Focus blast nails Bisharp and Tyranitar, icy wind nails Landorus, etc.)

You're also using prediction with baton passing out as an argument, but, if Tyranitar just even switches in, you've lost a teamslot, like if you're trying to will-o-wisp a dragonite, and tyranitar switches in, etc.

Plus, the usage moves that hit Shedinja super effectively are still at a high level, Bisharp is very common, so is Special Mega Altaria with Fire Blast, Scarf/Banded Landorus-T with Stone edge, etc.


That's why I suggest we keep Shedinja unranked.

Did you watch that replay? It's not just what Shedinja does, it's how Shedinja forces the other person to play. That whole game was based around my opponent trying to keep up rocks so he could kill Shed, which was the smart thing to do from his perspective. He finally got them up at the very end, and therefore effectively killed Shedinja, but in the process I was able to win the game. Shedinja's mere presence forced him to play a certain way which I was able to use to my advantage.

 

[North Gate]

I'm honestly having a difficult time imagining Garchomp in any other place than S rank

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are the pinnacle of the OU metagame. These Pokemon are able to perform a variety of roles very effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits. These Pokemon define the meta

"Reserved for Pokemon that are the pinnacle of OU the OU metagame"

The current usage statistics for the 1825 OU ladder is:

Garchomp at number one with 26.3% usage

The current usage statistics for the 1696 OU ladder is:

Landorus-Therian at number one with 22%

Garchomp at second place with 20%

The current usage statistics for the 1500 OU ladder is:

Garchomp at seventh place with 14%

The current usage statistics for the 0 OU ladder is:

Garchomp at seventh place with 13%


This tells us a couple of things. The higher you get on the ladder the more Garchomps you'll be seeing, which again means that more experienced players know how beneficial Garchomp is and use it. Looking at the usage statistic we can also see that none of the other S ranks even come close to this, they're placed at 16 for Clefable, 20 for Landorus-I, 23 for Altaria and 25 for Metagross going by the 1825 ladder. I'm going to go hard into the usage of Garchomp right now, so this will be a long post but I don't know how to /hide in this format because I suck, so sorry in advance.


The argument I was trying to make that Garchomp really is the pinnacle of OU right, it's the highest by usage stat in the high ladder.

These pokemon are able to preform a variety of roles effectively, or just one extremely well.

Looking at the moveset of Garchomp you can see variety of roles, it's most common move is Earthquake, followed by SR, Fire blast and then Dragon tail. That's your Tank chomp lead right there, or your lum lead. You can truly never expect what it'll run as its least likely move is Dragon claw at 12%. Which again means that it can run a plethora of different sets but it's excellent as an offensive stealth rocker and lead

Moves
Earthquake 99.677%
Stealth Rock 87.536%
Fire Blast 52.524%
Dragon Tail 39.030%
Draco Meteor 24.304%
Toxic 21.964%
Outrage 21.429%
Swords Dance 21.095%
Dragon Claw 12.869%
Other 19.571%

Items
Rocky Helmet 63.429%
Lum Berry 12.330%
Choice Scarf 6.144%
Life Orb 5.902%
Focus Sash 5.038%
Garchompite 5.025%
Other 2.133%

Garchomp has low risk high reward.

Why wouldn't you want to use Garchomp as your stealth rocker on offensive teams? It beats Mega Sableye, it's fast and it's powerful. It can also use multiple sets without taking up opportunity cost, it stacks few weaknesses that are all resisted by steel. It can be used as a wall, tank, pivot, stealth rocker, sweeper, scarf, support.

Garchomp has very few flaws that are patched up by its numerous positive traits

Garchomps weakness is, it's pressured by a couple pokemon in the tier, It's weak to ice... Yes, there's more weaknesses but they were covered better by AM and others so they're there but not nearly enough to put overlook its amazing features in the metagame.

Garchomp defines the metagame, Garchomp is on over 26% of teams in the high ladder, might not seem much but it's amazing when you consider how many viable pokemon there are. Garchomp can fit multiple playstyles and will always have a place in the high rankings of OU. Garchomp is uncounterable and is easily a pokemon that you should prepare for.

usage =/= viability check out landorus-i's usage stats imo and see what i mean

That being said Garchomp doesn't deserve S, it's mostly one of the better A+ mons, like Azumarill, or before it was S, Clefable. It has numerous flaws that keep it from going to S and usage statistics don't help at all in your case. If we want to discuss usage, Weavile has gained usage and that hinders Garchomp a lot :p. Ceertain metagame trends don't like Chomp and that's a simple fact of life we have to face here. I'm not going to go into detail but you shouldn't use usage stats as an argument, ever.

E: also dont use the stupid banner for rankings as an argument either, not really a point in that because you can stretch it to almost any 'mon

 

[Sochlo]

He's using the usage stats to show how splashable and dominant Garchomp's presence is. Whether or not that is enough to push it into S is debatable, but Garchomp is objectively one of the most meta defining Pokemon in the tier at the moment. I'd say even more so than Keldeo or, dare I say it, Metagross as even with things like Weavile rising it maintains its presence.

Obviously this doesn't translate to direct viability but when you're ranking things on its presence in the meta, Garchomp is pretty close to the pinnacle.

 

[MilkyWay]

I'm honestly having a difficult time imagining Garchomp in any other place than S rank

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are the pinnacle of the OU metagame. These Pokemon are able to perform a variety of roles very effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits. These Pokemon define the meta

"Reserved for Pokemon that are the pinnacle of OU the OU metagame"

The current usage statistics for the 1825 OU ladder is:

Garchomp at number one with 26.3% usage

The current usage statistics for the 1696 OU ladder is:

Landorus-Therian at number one with 22%

Garchomp at second place with 20%

The current usage statistics for the 1500 OU ladder is:

Garchomp at seventh place with 14%

The current usage statistics for the 0 OU ladder is:

Garchomp at seventh place with 13%


This tells us a couple of things. The higher you get on the ladder the more Garchomps you'll be seeing, which again means that more experienced players know how beneficial Garchomp is and use it. Looking at the usage statistic we can also see that none of the other S ranks even come close to this, they're placed at 16 for Clefable, 20 for Landorus-I, 23 for Altaria and 25 for Metagross going by the 1825 ladder. I'm going to go hard into the usage of Garchomp right now, so this will be a long post but I don't know how to /hide in this format because I suck, so sorry in advance.


The argument I was trying to make that Garchomp really is the pinnacle of OU right, it's the highest by usage stat in the high ladder.

These pokemon are able to preform a variety of roles effectively, or just one extremely well.

Looking at the moveset of Garchomp you can see variety of roles, it's most common move is Earthquake, followed by SR, Fire blast and then Dragon tail. That's your Tank chomp lead right there, or your lum lead. You can truly never expect what it'll run as its least likely move is Dragon claw at 12%. Which again means that it can run a plethora of different sets but it's excellent as an offensive stealth rocker and lead

Moves
Earthquake 99.677%
Stealth Rock 87.536%
Fire Blast 52.524%
Dragon Tail 39.030%
Draco Meteor 24.304%
Toxic 21.964%
Outrage 21.429%
Swords Dance 21.095%
Dragon Claw 12.869%
Other 19.571%

Items
Rocky Helmet 63.429%
Lum Berry 12.330%
Choice Scarf 6.144%
Life Orb 5.902%
Focus Sash 5.038%
Garchompite 5.025%
Other 2.133%

Garchomp has low risk high reward.

Why wouldn't you want to use Garchomp as your stealth rocker on offensive teams? It beats Mega Sableye, it's fast and it's powerful. It can also use multiple sets without taking up opportunity cost, it stacks few weaknesses that are all resisted by steel. It can be used as a wall, tank, pivot, stealth rocker, sweeper, scarf, support.

Garchomp has very few flaws that are patched up by its numerous positive traits

Garchomps weakness is, it's pressured by a couple pokemon in the tier, It's weak to ice... Yes, there's more weaknesses but they were covered better by AM and others so they're there but not nearly enough to put overlook its amazing features in the metagame.

Garchomp defines the metagame, Garchomp is on over 26% of teams in the high ladder, might not seem much but it's amazing when you consider how many viable pokemon there are. Garchomp can fit multiple playstyles and will always have a place in the high rankings of OU. Garchomp is uncounterable and is easily a pokemon that you should prepare for.

Can you please stop pushing Garchomp for S rank? You already posted about it multiple times and were shot down each time. Nothing is going to change between now and then.

Landous will most likely get banned and then you can make your case for Garchomp because you explicitly stated that in a Landorus metagame Garchomp should stay at A+. Personally I don't see Garchomp going to S any time soon. It is a good pokemon but is far from metagame defining. Garchomp sees a lot of usage because it has a variety of sets that fit well on many teams, but that doesn't automatically make it an S rank. When you team build, do you specifially prepare for Garchomp like you do fo Keldeo, Landous, Talonflam, etc? Probably not.

 

[AM]

Keldeo: S -> A+

Confirmed and done.

 

[ryan]

The reason why Garchomp's usage is so high is because it's a fantastic glue Pokemon. It patches up weaknesses to Metagross, Talonflame, Lopunny, Scizor, etc. all in one slot despite not resisting shit from any of them. It's a last ditch check to a shitton of Pokemon because of how much residual damage Rocky Helmet and Rough Skin do. Of course a Stealth Rock setter with a strong phazing move and good coverage has more usage than wallbreakers and sweepers. It's easier to slap onto a team, it doesn't take up your Mega slot, and it checks a lot of Pokemon. That doesn't make it metagame defining; it makes it reliable and consistent.

 

[Raseri]

The reason why Garchomp's usage is so high is because it's a fantastic glue Pokemon. It patches up weaknesses to Metagross, Talonflame, Lopunny, Scizor, etc. all in one slot despite not resisting shit from any of them. It's a last ditch check to a shitton of Pokemon because of how much residual damage Rocky Helmet and Rough Skin do. Of course a Stealth Rock setter with a strong phazing move and good coverage has more usage than wallbreakers and sweepers. It's easier to slap onto a team, it doesn't take up your Mega slot, and it checks a lot of Pokemon. That doesn't make it metagame defining; it makes it reliable and consistent.

tl;dr Garchomp is good

 

[Imperator Romanum]

usage =/= viability check out landorus-i's usage stats imo and see what i mean

That being said Garchomp doesn't deserve S, it's mostly one of the better A+ mons, like Azumarill, or before it was S, Clefable. It has numerous flaws that keep it from going to S and usage statistics don't help at all in your case. If we want to discuss usage, Weavile has gained usage and that hinders Garchomp a lot :p. Ceertain metagame trends don't like Chomp and that's a simple fact of life we have to face here. I'm not going to go into detail but you shouldn't use usage stats as an argument, ever.

E: also dont use the stupid banner for rankings as an argument either, not really a point in that because you can stretch it to almost any 'mon

Name a couple of flaws, not being rude but I can't come up with as many on my own.

The reason why Garchomp's usage is so high is because it's a fantastic glue Pokemon. It patches up weaknesses to Metagross, Talonflame, Lopunny, Scizor, etc. all in one slot despite not resisting shit from any of them. It's a last ditch check to a shitton of Pokemon because of how much residual damage Rocky Helmet and Rough Skin do. Of course a Stealth Rock setter with a strong phazing move and good coverage has more usage than wallbreakers and sweepers. It's easier to slap onto a team, it doesn't take up your Mega slot, and it checks a lot of Pokemon. That doesn't make it metagame defining; it makes it reliable and consistent.

But does it not fit exactly into the S rank definition?

tl;dr Garchomp is good

Hell yeah!

Can you please stop pushing Garchomp for S rank? You already posted about it multiple times and were shot down each time. Nothing is going to change between now and then.

Landous will most likely get banned and then you can make your case for Garchomp because you explicitly stated that in a Landorus metagame Garchomp should stay at A+. Personally I don't see Garchomp going to S any time soon. It is a good pokemon but is far from metagame defining. Garchomp sees a lot of usage because it has a variety of sets that fit well on many teams, but that doesn't automatically make it an S rank. When you team build, do you specifially prepare for Garchomp like you do fo Keldeo, Landous, Talonflam, etc? Probably not.

No. I've not been shut down, you can't shut down a discussion. There's many people agreeing with me as well, both in the OU room and on the forums. The deal is that I've not been shut down, It's an open discussion which I'll keep going until
And I might not intentionally prepare for Garchomp like i do Keldeo/tflame ect. but I almost do it automatically. I need a ground resistance. I need a dragon resistance and I need something that'll kill Tank chomp without losing half its health, isn't that the same thing as needing a flying resistance? Or a Keldeo switch in.

 

[AM]

We put definitions there for the sake of consistency across other viability rankings. They're suppose to be taken with a grain of salt not used for verbatim word for word to justify a rank. Replays and practical scenarios hold more ground in a nom than text. Always have always will.

 

[ryan]

Everything but the "pinnacle of OU" and "define the metagame" describes Garchomp, but those two very important pieces do not describe Garchomp. Yes, it's a Pokemon that is seen on all kinds of teams, but that's because it's a glue Pokemon. Glue Pokemon are easy to slap onto a team, not so good that you're putting yourself at a disadvantage if you're not using them. Every team I have that has Rocky Helmet Garchomp on it could easily function well without it so long as I made minor adjustments with it. The few teams I have that have non-Rocky Helmet Garchomp on them could also do fine with another Pokemon. It's just an easy Pokemon to use. That doesn't make it S rank.

 

[Deleted User 268985]

By the way I agree with the Garchomp to S rank. The rocky helmet set is his best and most common set, but if you make a switch expecting that set and it turns out to be SD / scarf / mega etc instead (which are all very good) then you get wrecked. If we're banning mons based on unpredictability and moving Keldeo down because it's too predictable, then Garchomp should be moving up.

 

[heritage]

Name a couple of flaws, not being rude but I can't come up with as many on my own.

Well, since you insist.
For the TankChomp set, no reliable recovery outside of Rest (which I guess is legit if you really need it, however this takes up a much needed moveslot for Fire Blast or Toxic) means that it's going to be worn down extremely fast thanks to status, which really, really hurts it by the way, or repeated switch in. Since it usually runs Rocky Helmet over Leftovers, this means it has literally 0 recovery. If running Leftovers then you miss out on screwing things like Lopunny, Talonflame or Landorus-Therian with extreme residual damage. Obviously there's the huge 4x Ice weakness, and there are so many Pokemon that carry HP Ice or Ice Punch that can easily take advantage of it. Pokemon that you're supposed to be checking, like Raikou, Thundurus or Mega Manectric, just bop you with HP Ice.
For the Scarf set, there's the problem of locking yourself into very exploitable moves like Outrage and Earthquake, not to mention Fire Blast is going to come off its lower attacking stat. The problems that the Tankchomp set have still apply here as well, mainly the x4 Ice Weakness. I guess Dragon Claw is an _ok_ option if you don't want to be locked into a move, but that doesn't hit nearly as hard as Outrage and is still exploitable.
Offensive SD with Rocks is really cool, but once again its STABs are extremely exploitable. Fairy-types easily switch into Outrage, while the abundance of Landorus-Therian not only hurts it with Intimidate, but that means it can't freely spam Earthquake. I mean there are more Flying-type Pokemon, especially Gliscor and junk, that can switch in, just using the best example.
It's positives without a doubt outweigh its negatives, but just because it's so high in usage doesn't mean it's tippy top tier. It's a freaking fantastic Pokemon without a doubt, and nobody is saying that it's bad, it's just not S rank.

No. I've not been shut down, you can't shut down a discussion. There's many people agreeing with me as well, both in the OU room and on the forums. The deal is that I've not been shut down, It's an open discussion which I'll keep going until

That's not helping your cause.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Well, since you insist.
For the TankChomp set, no reliable recovery outside of Rest (which I guess is legit if you really need it, however this takes up a much needed moveslot for Fire Blast or Toxic) means that it's going to be worn down extremely fast thanks to status, which really, really hurts it by the way, or repeated switch in. Since it usually runs Rocky Helmet over Leftovers, this means it has literally 0 recovery. If running Leftovers then you miss out on screwing things like Lopunny, Talonflame or Landorus-Therian with extreme residual damage. Obviously there's the huge 4x Ice weakness, and there are so many Pokemon that carry HP Ice or Ice Punch that can easily take advantage of it. Pokemon that you're supposed to be checking, like Raikou, Thundurus or Mega Manectric, just bop you with HP Ice.
For the Scarf set, there's the problem of locking yourself into very exploitable moves like Outrage and Earthquake, not to mention Fire Blast is going to come off its lower attacking stat. The problems that the Tankchomp set have still apply here as well, mainly the x4 Ice Weakness. I guess Dragon Claw is an _ok_ option if you don't want to be locked into a move, but that doesn't hit nearly as hard as Outrage and is still exploitable.
Offensive SD with Rocks is really cool, but once again its STABs are extremely exploitable. Fairy-types easily switch into Outrage, while the abundance of Landorus-Therian not only hurts it with Intimidate, but that means it can't freely spam Earthquake. I mean there are more Flying-type Pokemon, especially Gliscor and junk, that can switch in, just using the best example.
It's positives without a doubt outweigh its negatives, but just because it's so high in usage doesn't mean it's tippy top tier. It's a freaking fantastic Pokemon without a doubt, and nobody is saying that it's bad, it's just not S rank.


That's not helping your cause.

Thank you, those are all valid flaws. Though rest really shouldn't be considered on Garchomp.

Everything but the "pinnacle of OU" and "define the metagame" describes Garchomp, but those two very important pieces do not describe Garchomp. Yes, it's a Pokemon that is seen on all kinds of teams, but that's because it's a glue Pokemon. Glue Pokemon are easy to slap onto a team, not so good that you're putting yourself at a disadvantage if you're not using them. Every team I have that has Rocky Helmet Garchomp on it could easily function well without it so long as I made minor adjustments with it. The few teams I have that have non-Rocky Helmet Garchomp on them could also do fine with another Pokemon. It's just an easy Pokemon to use. That doesn't make it S rank.

so we're going to hold Garchomp because its not actually S worthy, every bodies just using it because its an excellent glue pokemon, too me that just seems like another argument for making Garchomp S rank

 

[Magis4Life]

Thank you, those are all valid flaws. Though rest really shouldn't be considered on Garchomp.



so we're going to hold Garchomp because its not actually S worthy, every bodies just using it because its an excellent glue pokemon, too me that just seems like another argument for making Garchomp S rank

Buddy, now you are just repeating yourself. It has been addressed numerous times now that just because garchomp makes for an excellent glue mon and is splashable on many teams does not warrant it S rank or is comparable with other S rank mons in terms of being meta defining. A mon is not meta defining because everybody uses said mon, and garchomp is not an exception. Hell, I find keldeo, manaphy, torn-t, zard x and quite a few others to be much more meta defining despite not being S rank and have more influence in games than chomp. I really think we should move on now is all.

 

[jpw234]

If you can explain why Garchomp is any different in its "metagame dominance" than Landorus-T an S nom might make sense

But it isn't, they're both reactive Pokemon that blanket check a bunch of the physical meta while performing another role (either SRing or being a Scarfer), they don't define the metagame, they're products of the metagame.

 

[Roxachronic]

Fail to see why people are pretty sure Garchomp will raise in the case Lando-I gets banned since with one potential threat gone like it some other mons could get more usage(more Water mons,etc.) and also is easier to put a more dedicated check to Garchomp since you have one less threat, anyways if it happens is better to wait until that time to see how the meta changes, and just to point it out, I would bet that Garchomp could have a worse time since it would be easier to use fat mons if Lando-I goes, but either way I don't want to jump to conclussions since Lando-I is is still currently in the meta.

Also now Garchomp seems right in A+, he is a great mon sure, but if you have the right check for it you should be able to handle him well taking into account an equal ability in both players, is not like something as M-Altaria,Lando-I or Megagross which you need to scout much mroe carefully, of course Garchomp has versatiltiy, but lets be honest, we all know Tankchomp is the reason for it to be in A+, its other sets are at most A or A- worthy, whereas the S rank mons have versatility and even when adapting some moves for a certain team their sets usually remain S worthy, my point is that even if Garchomp can run other sets they aren't as effective as the Tankchomp one, that is when you notice that its versatility is not as impressive as some want it to be(For example Scarfchomp, some people say that it can be effective because of the surprise factor, but they don't comment on how BOTH of his STABS have mons immune to them[Flying for Ground and Fairy for Dragon],which can be pretty bad for a choice set .)

So my point is that I think the positives of Garchomp are a little exagerated and its negatives are not took into account, like its obvious weakness to Ice, which even if you don't want to use a check for Garchomp a lot of people carry Ice coverage since it its incredible good right now(and in case you are wondering the main difference between Lando-I x4 weakness is that it is incredible difficult to change to a mon that is able to take a hit consistently and threaten it with an Ice move, a different story for Garchomp since even if it still can do decent damage it doesn't have the same amount of offensive presence.)

So keep Garchomp in A+.

 

[Deleted User 268985]

If you can explain why Garchomp is any different in its "metagame dominance" than Landorus-T an S nom might make sense

But it isn't, they're both reactive Pokemon that blanket check a bunch of the physical meta while performing another role (either SRing or being a Scarfer), they don't define the metagame, they're products of the metagame.

This isn't my argument but I'll step in because I agree with the Garchomp to S guy: you're underestimating Chomp and his other roles. Rocky helmet is one set. It's a good set, but it's not S by itself.

Garchomp is a lot more threatening on his offensive sets than Lando-T. Lando-T can use swords dance like Chomp, but his lower speed tier makes it kind of "meh". Lack of a useful secondary STAB hurts Lando, and the inability to use special moves such as fire blast and draco meteor hurts Lando as well.

There's also not much difference between Lando's sets. Switch in something bulky that is immune to EQ and takes neutral from knock off/stone edge and you have a great Lando-T check, regardless of the set. When it comes to Garchomp's sets, if you send in a physical wall and all of a sudden get a life orb (or a mega chomp) draco meteor to the face, you just lost a mon.

Garchomp is way better than Lando-T, and I agree that on the suspect ladder he is worthy of S-rank.

 

[AM]

If you mention Garchomp being S based on the suspect ladder or a meta that we're not even in right now I'm deleting your post.