Linked

[Imperator Romanum]

Its also worth noting that if a pokemon linking Protect with a move is facing off against a pokemon with two attacking moves linked, by the end of the 2nd turn they would both have achieved the exact same thing in attacking twice, there is no real clear advantage.

That said though, this is assuming Protect fails each consecutive use, which won't always be the case. But more often than not it should be so you'd be better off with a different link.

I see no problem with Protect shenanigans.

Problem is linking protect with any move, or linking protect with a boosting move. Talonflame is the obvious abuser of this. Linking protect with Brave bird means it can revenge kill a pokemon that usually would be able to take one brave bird, but not two. For example Mega Diancie is now, essentially OHKOd by the smogon bird. Same with Breloom, Azumarill ect.

Using protect with Swords dance also increases its attack by 2x, provided you're faster than the opposition. You can do this every other turn, essentially giving you contrary. But this does not only apply to Talonflame, every single (fast) pokemon has contrary provided they want to give up their link.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

So people didn't think Protean was broken in AAA until a few people got to number one spamming it, lets see how protect + attack does in the metagame...

First replay:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/linked-237206686

Second against fake turn:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/linked-237209289

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/linked-237401642

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

So people didn't think Protean was broken in AAA until a few people got to number one spamming it, lets see how protect + attack does in the metagame...

First replay:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/linked-237206686

Second against fake turn:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/linked-237209289

This is what I'm talking about. Protect in a link basically makes your opponent can't do anything to you, which makes it kinda uncompetitive I think. If Hack Guy consider suspecting Protect in a link, I'll support it.

 

[Arcade]

you should probs ban perish song-block/mean look as that brings OP to another level, apart from that, this seems immensely fun! can't wait to try

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

I forgot that Quagsire learned Stockpile. It only maxes at three, but it makes it can perform the same role as Clefable. Quagsire also has Water/Ground typing, which is also an excellent defensive typing. It may not have Stored Power like Clefable, but Stockpile sets allow it to use Scald, which is a stupid move. I am considering to move Quagsire into A rank if Stockpile Quagsire proves to be a thing.

 

[acz13]

The OM searcher has detected another OM with code! Added to eos.psim.us! Also, haha, Jirachi is too fun :P.

 

[Ranbu No Melody]

Why isnt Dragalge at viability ranks? He can Draco Meteor and haze at the same turn.

 

[CactusCacti]

Time to introduce you guys to few sets in the series of "to play like a jerk"

Hide

Golurk @ Choice Scarf
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dynamic Punch
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch

Simple little set to cause confusion and fish a flinch hax at the same turn for maximun frustation.
Not much to say about this guy.
This set can also be done with machamp but Golurk has more desirable typing.

Murkrow @ Eviolite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Confuse Ray
- Thunder Wave
- Roost
- Dark Pulse / Sub / Foul Play

Nobody likes parahax so whats better than introduce them both at the same turn?
Fun for the whole family!

Sableye @ Sablenite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / (def as needed)
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind / Will-O-Wisp
- Snarl / calm Mind
- Will-O-Wisp / Calm Mind / snarl
- Recover

This one can be tweaked as needed but the premise is the same;
Snarl and Will-o, combo em up in desired way and become a great nuinsance that is hard to take down.
Also handy against the dual hazard setters.

Golduck
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 spe /
Timid Nature
- Encore
- Disable
- Scald
- Filler / Rain Dance

Encore and Disable at same turn is largest nuinsance you can get.
Bit questionable on the linked moves tho, but the idea is still there.
Rest of the moves are pretty much fillers tho.

 

[DarkeKnight]

Time to introduce you guys to few sets in the series of "to play like a jerk"

Golduck
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 spe /
Timid Nature
- Encore
- Disable
- Scald
- Filler / Rain Dance

Encore and Disable at same turn is largest nuinsance you can get.
Bit questionable on the linked moves tho, but the idea is still there.
Rest of the moves are pretty much fillers tho.

Curious as to why you're not using Alakazam for this.

 

[CactusCacti]

Curious as to why you're not using Alakazam for this.

I forgot his excistance
but golduck also has the speed advantage with swift swim if rain is up

so up to taste i guess

 

[Heroes and Cons]

Klefki can use prankster and the link to guarantee dual screens in one turn, which is pretty ridiculous, and it can even run it with a light clay for lengthy support. I would highly recommend putting this thing in a high viability tier.

Aegislash has the combo of Shadow Sneak and King's Shield, allowing it to deal damage and protect from non-priority damage at the same time, AND punish contact attackers.

 

[TheBlueFiretruck]

I've been using Scarfed Gengar with Shadow Ball + Sludge Bomb, and it's flipping amazing. Shadow Ball is first in the link because it can activate a SpD drop, which is devastating for the opponent. It gets a ton of important 2HKOs, making switch-ins hard to find. It also OHKOs Clef which is a big plus. It's hard countered by Assult Vest Meloette (yes, it was used against me because of Gengar), but I'd love to see some calcs for this thing. Anyone?

 

[Funbot28]

I think this should be implemented in the viability rankings:

A+ --------> S

Jirachi is ridiculously good, with Zen Headbutt and Iron Head linked to together, it can cause a 76% chance to flinch. Also factoring in T-Wave, and it can be a pain to deal with. It can run many different sets, like Choice Scarf, Bulky Offense, Support and many others. Also has access to good coverage moves in the elemental punches, and U-Turn for momentum. Jirachi is one of the best, if not the best mons in Linked (imo).

 

[Imperator Romanum]

I think this should be implemented in the viability rankings:

A+ --------> S

Jirachi is ridiculously good, with Zen Headbutt and Iron Head linked to together, it can cause a 76% chance to flinch. Also factoring in T-Wave, and it can be a pain to deal with. It can run many different sets, like Choice Scarf, Bulky Offense, Support and many others. Also has access to good coverage moves in the elemental punches, and U-Turn for momentum. Jirachi is one of the best, if not the best mons in Linked (imo).

Eh... I haven't seen Jirach used much, but I do disagree with this nomination simply because of Aegislash absolutely ruining this thing. It does it job amazing, and is amazing, but Aegislash is a pokemon I'd rather see go to S than Jirachi.

Hack_Guy Can you think of quickbanning something with protect? It's absolutely gamebreaking, and maybe thinking about suspect testing Talonflame?

 

[skies]

I believe something should be done about flinching. Similar to STABmons, multi-hit with flinching moves is just really unfair imo. So, for Tail Slap you're going to get a 41% chance to flinch (Cincinno is what I'm speaking of), but then you also have another 41% chance to flinch via Bullet Seed, so it's 82% chance to flinch all in one turn. So, that's more often than not that you're going to flinch your opponent. The other Pokemon that gets this chance is Jirachi, but with Iron Head + Zen Headbutt. Those are two Pokemon who, under the correct circumstances, are unbeatable. They can clear through teams once priority is eliminated (easier said than done) and basically leave the game up to hax. What makes them broken is nothing. Really. They're not broken. However, they are unfair and unhealthy, in my opinion. You can beat Cinccino with priority, you can beat Jirachi with opposing Scarf Pokemon or through Pokemon who resist the moves, but in the end they still can be a large pain in the ass. I just feel as if the metagame would be much more fun without looking at the opposing team preview and thinking "god, not a cincinno..." which you shouldn't have to think!

Also, here's a replay of it verus M'joe'ra where it 6-0es his team. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/linked-237306036. He doesn't have priority, and this is obviously a joke team just to see what Cincinno can do, but it just shows how annoying it can be.

 

[urkerab]

I believe something should be done about flinching. Similar to STABmons, multi-hit with flinching moves is just really unfair imo. So, for Tail Slap you're going to get a 41% chance to flinch (Cincinno is what I'm speaking of), but then you also have another 41% chance to flinch via Bullet Seed, so it's 82% chance to flinch all in one turn.

Actually it's "only" 65%. (Since you can't flinch twice, the easy way to calculate this is to look at the chance you don't flinch, which is 59% of 59% or 35%.)

 

[skies]

Actually it's "only" 65%. (Since you can't flinch twice, the easy way to calculate this is to look at the chance you don't flinch, which is 59% of 59% or 35%.)

I was wondering this, thanks for clarifying! Still, though, it's over 50% and is more often than not that you aren't moving.

 

[xJownage]

there are several things that need to be banned in this metagame before it becomes less...spam stupid shit...ty.

1. Protect. Do you guys remember Protect: the metagame? This is a manifest of that to be honest. Its utterly devastating against half of the teams in the meta and basically necessitates the use of specific counters to the mons that abuse it. Better carry prankster twave + nasty plot thundy! or sable. or whatever prankster mon. Talonflame is literally stupid with protect + brave bird or protect + swords dance. Protect + Brave Bird makes it literally invulnerable if you don't have the priority. Protect + SD literally rapes everything. So now, as a person who hasn't played linked in 2 months, I am just gonna go wreck the ladder without even trying.

2. Flinches are aids. while not as overcentralizing as protect, the potential for it to make the opponent invulnerable is very great. Not to mention how terrifying scarfrachi is with twave + Iron head and other flinch moves + u-turn which basically gives everything free switches.

While I am certainly not experienced enough in the tier for my opinions to be of note, I am going to remedy that, and these are undeniably broken to the point that they are completely uncompetitive. Now i'll see you guys when I break the ladder.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Lol this metagame. This'll be the last post for a couple of hours as I'm going to sleep, but there's a couple of very, very broken things that need to be banned quickly in this metagame for it to flourish.

Flinching

Flinching is retarded. It's completely based on hax, and in standards its on the bad but here you have infinite flinches with fake out + u-turn. You also have utterly devastating stuff like Cinccino with Tail slap + Bullet seed, with a 65-85% chance to flinch.

Protect

protect in this metagame is something you can literally slap on any relatively fast pokemon and give it a boosting move, that pokemon has now effectively doubled its attack as it gets up a free Swords dance on anything that's not faster

Boosting move + Attack

This overwhelms stall and balance on a baffling level. You have to use unaware, and even then there's things that easily break past the unaware users.

Talonflame

Priority 120 Parental bond Brave bird is insane. So is protect + sd, protect + brave bird, swords dance + brave bird, taunt + will o wisp, brave bird + will o wisp. The list goes fucking on and on. This mon is stupid and it severely restricts team building for offence, which wouldn't be a problem if flinching and boosting + attack is pressuring stall and balanced.

Aegislash

So Aegislash was unbanned after very little discussion. I was pro unban but Aegislash is actually very broken. It can run Shadow sneak + King shield to attack and then safely return back into shield form, and it can also run Shadow ball + Sacred sword which is unresisted and hitting hard on both ends of the spectrum, that combo has very, very few switch ins. And that's without taking Swords dance, Head smash, Automize, HP ice, flash cannon, iron head and all of the coverage moves it gets into account. It againt restricts team building and has zero switch ins. What could sorta switch in before can't handle two neutral, powerful moves. It can also boost + attacking which is again adding to the broken pile that is Aegislash.

Sorry for the foul language

 

[M'joe'ra]

Lol this metagame. This'll be the last post for a couple of hours as I'm going to sleep, but there's a couple of very, very broken things that need to be banned quickly in this metagame for it to flourish.

Flinching

Flinching is retarded. It's completely based on hax, and in standards its on the bad but here you have infinite flinches with fake out + u-turn. You also have utterly devastating stuff like Cinccino with Tail slap + Bullet seed, with a 65-85% chance to flinch.

Protect

protect in this metagame is something you can literally slap on any relatively fast pokemon and give it a boosting move, that pokemon has now effectively doubled its attack as it gets up a free Swords dance on anything that's not faster

Boosting move + Attack

This overwhelms stall and balance on a baffling level. You have to use unaware, and even then there's things that easily break past the unaware users.

Talonflame

Priority 120 Parental bond Brave bird is insane. So is protect + sd, protect + brave bird, swords dance + brave bird, taunt + will o wisp, brave bird + will o wisp. The list goes fucking on and on. This mon is stupid and it severely restricts team building for offence, which wouldn't be a problem if flinching and boosting + attack is pressuring stall and balanced.

Aegislash

So Aegislash was unbanned after very little discussion. I was pro unban but Aegislash is actually very broken. It can run Shadow sneak + King shield to attack and then safely return back into shield form, and it can also run Shadow ball + Sacred sword which is unresisted and hitting hard on both ends of the spectrum, that combo has very, very few switch ins. And that's without taking Swords dance, Head smash, Automize, HP ice, flash cannon, iron head and all of the coverage moves it gets into account. It againt restricts team building and has zero switch ins. What could sorta switch in before can't handle two neutral, powerful moves. It can also boost + attacking which is again adding to the broken pile that is Aegislash.

Sorry for the foul language

Im just gonna put this here.

This my friends is a rocky helmet, it is exceptionally useful on beating flinchers and dual contact attackers. Rocky Helmet will deal insane amounts of recoil damage to flinch mons like jirachi, ambipom, mienshao, lopunny and cinccino due to the fact that they will be taking a bunch of damage even if your mon gets flinched, especially cinccino due to it's tail slap making contact 5 times. For talonflame this literally changes talon's name from smogon bird to suicide bird, easily giving it 50% when combined with brave bird recoil. Basically all you need to do to break the above mentioned threats is put that helmet on a couple of fat mons that can live a few hits and you are good.

On the topic of setup sweepers, run either clefable, quagsire or a strong priority attacker.

Not gonna comment on protect + attack right now.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Im just gonna put this here.

This my friends is a rocky helmet, it is exceptionally useful on beating flinchers and dual contact attackers. Rocky Helmet will deal insane amounts of recoil damage to flinch mons like jirachi, ambipom, mienshao, lopunny and cinccino due to the fact that they will be taking a bunch of damage even if your mon gets flinched, especially cinccino due to it's tail slap making contact 5 times. For talonflame this literally changes talon's name from smogon bird to suicide bird, easily giving it 50% when combined with brave bird recoil. Basically all you need to do to break the above mentioned threats is put that helmet on a couple of fat mons that can live a few hits and you are good.

On the topic of setup sweepers, run either clefable, quagsire or a strong priority attacker.

Not gonna comment on protect + attack right now.

Not every team should be required to run Rocky helmet, that would make it centralising. Not everything can afford to run rocky helmet either.

Both Clefable and Quagsire are OHKOd by +6 stored power from Swoobat, they're not the most powerful mons. You also Mega Gyarados

 

[Funbot28]

I think we should just ban King's Rock and Razor Claw

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

Okay. After playing for some time (and reading above comments), I need two things to be suspected.

First is linking Protect/Detect/King's Shield. I explained before as to why its uncompetitive. Protect itself does not need to be banned, just ban it from linking with other moves.

Second is King's Rock and Razor Claw.

Im just gonna put this here.

This my friends is a rocky helmet, it is exceptionally useful on beating flinchers and dual contact attackers. Rocky Helmet will deal insane amounts of recoil damage to flinch mons like jirachi, ambipom, mienshao, lopunny and cinccino due to the fact that they will be taking a bunch of damage even if your mon gets flinched, especially cinccino due to it's tail slap making contact 5 times. For talonflame this literally changes talon's name from smogon bird to suicide bird, easily giving it 50% when combined with brave bird recoil. Basically all you need to do to break the above mentioned threats is put that helmet on a couple of fat mons that can live a few hits and you are good.

On the topic of setup sweepers, run either clefable, quagsire or a strong priority attacker.

Not gonna comment on protect + attack right now.

You need to realize that King's Rock Cincinno with Rock Blast + Bullet Seed is unaffected by Rocky Helmet, so you won't be able to punish it. With this, you can just click Rock Blast/Bullet Seed and just 6-0 teams ease, which is much more unfair than Faketurn. Not just this. There are things like Cloyster Icicle Spear + Rock Blast or something. I think this is uncompetitive. It forces you to run Inner Focus. It's just unfair.

 

[Isa Simple]

Idk.
To my experience with following the meta I think that there are more than enough options to stop Flinch, though I am still on the fence about protect.
I feel like through the meta preparing itself for Fake Turn one should in turn be prepared for other flinch abusers.
Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn is a common a strong mon that shits on Fake Turn, Flinch Hax Jirachi, and Flinch Hax Cincinno.
Inner Focus Dragonite is also common and very spashable with its fantastic Dragon Dance + Sky Drop set.
Almost every offensive mon either boosts its speed, has priority, or is scarfed. The latter two being able to easily move before and KO flinch abusers, particularly Cincinno as it is not scarfed.

As for Protect I'm not really sure.
I still think it can be manageable.
Talonflame in particular I think is still far better off and scarier with other links like Brave Bird + Acrobatics or Brave Bird + Roost.
Plus there is enough Talonflame checks running around that can take a couple Brave Birds easily and proceed to still set up while you attack and then OHKO you as soon as protect fails.
Mega Tyranitar with DD + Stone Edge is an example of this. As are Rock Polish + Head Smash Aggron and Relicanth.
Though I do understand that there are other pokemon who may be able to run linked Protect better, so Idk.
But at this stage I'm not convinced it should go and I think that Talonflame is far more broken with links other than Protect BB / Protect SD.


Anyway, time to post some replays of my own experiences on the ladder now that this is OMotM.

Some of you may remember my talk about a Sunny Terrain team earlier in the thread? Well here is my first variation of it in action. Its good. But its not that flashy. The problem is that the meta is just so incredibly fast, making it hard to set up my conditions. Also practically every team has at least 2 x4 Grass resists such as Dragonite, Charizard, Dragonite, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, etc, which all take at least 2 turns to muscle past which leads to my conditions wearing out too fast. I will likely try this strat again with different setters though. Also I feel maybe just having 1 setter + Whimsy may be a better idea and just go for the late game sweep, rather than letting everything ride on getting enough set up opportunities to let 2 grass types muscle past each others checks. Its still a lot of fun to use.
But anyway here are some replays of it being successful:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/linked-237197660
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/linked-237198607
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/linked-237201223
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/linked-237201917

Oh and before I peace out to test more gimmicks and niches, I may have won this battle but I never wanna see anything like this every again ok?
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/linked-237207260

 

[Hack_Guy]

http://strawpoll.me/4517990/ Vote here on whether you think that Razor Fang/King's Rock and/or linked protect should be banned. Please do not vote until you have played a couple games and know how both of these affect the meta yourself.

So in essence, Protect in a link and Razor Fang/King's Rock are being suspected