Lots of votes! Yay.
Hariyama + Contrary is my vote this time around.
Hariyama + Contrary is my vote this time around.
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Project OU Theorymon [Voting: Check Post #3272]
- Thread starter bb skarm
- Start date
- Status
For me, the most convincing one is Umbreon + Magic Bounce.
*SPOILER* IMPORTANT POST PLEASE READ
Alright guys, this wraps up voting for this round. After everything, we have our winner…
+ Thousand Arrows
Patolegend! 's Thousand Arrows Sandslash takes the slate as a sand sweeper capable of spamming Ground STAB. Congratulations Patolegend! for winning this slate!
Sandslash: 36
Umbreon: 22
Hariyama: 9
Trevenant:0 *sob*
First and foremost, thank you to everyone that participated. I'm a little disappointed to see the vote count so low. We went from over 80 votes down to 67. It seems that people were a little less enthused by this slate, so participation was down…Please please please keep voting, people! Let's see if we can break 80 next time around.
Okay…now to the next order of business, the new slate. I'm going to just preface the new slate with this: We are introducing two extremely revolutionary things with this slate. Veteran posters will know when they see the slate. Without further ado, your next slate…
+ Fiery Dance (credit to GnralLao )
+ Desolate Land (credit to practically everyone that's submitted something. There are too many of you to count)
+ Extremespeed
+ Ghost/Fighting-Type and Drain Punch
As you can see, we have decided to allow ExtremeSpeed Braviary. Braviary is a repeat submission, but it was such a high quality one that we felt compelled to see its return. We also allowed Ghost/Fight & Drain Punch Mega Banette, a two buff submission.
Now for the pants-shitting explanation I'm sure you're demanding…one of our goals is to make viable as many unviable or flat out bad Pokemon. Sometimes, our rigid policy gets in the way of buffing something to the point of OU success. We felt that it was necessary to allow two buff submissions so that we can reach a much larger number of unviable Pokemon. At the same time, we really want to increase the quality of submissions. That is the reasoning behind Braviary. If we see something that people like so much but loses to something equally or more awesome, we will likely re-slate it because we are going to require a high degree of quality from here on out.
I know you all have questions regarding two-buff submissions. I will answer a few of the ones I anticipate, but please direct all two-buff questions to Sun King and Mysteria . You can reach us at our walls or via PM.
This is a really effing awesome slate you guys. I expect to see GOOD DISCUSSION on each submission here. I do not want to see posts that list the four submissions and merely say how you feel about the submission. I want to see people talk about the effect on the metagame, list possible sets, checks/counters to the submission, play styles that benefit from the submission, and potential teammates for each one. I also want to see votes really pick up this round because I know we can do it.
Here's to a brighter theorymon future!
DISCUSS
Alright guys, this wraps up voting for this round. After everything, we have our winner…
Patolegend! 's Thousand Arrows Sandslash takes the slate as a sand sweeper capable of spamming Ground STAB. Congratulations Patolegend! for winning this slate!
Sandslash: 36
Umbreon: 22
Hariyama: 9
Trevenant:0 *sob*
First and foremost, thank you to everyone that participated. I'm a little disappointed to see the vote count so low. We went from over 80 votes down to 67. It seems that people were a little less enthused by this slate, so participation was down…Please please please keep voting, people! Let's see if we can break 80 next time around.
Okay…now to the next order of business, the new slate. I'm going to just preface the new slate with this: We are introducing two extremely revolutionary things with this slate. Veteran posters will know when they see the slate. Without further ado, your next slate…
As you can see, we have decided to allow ExtremeSpeed Braviary. Braviary is a repeat submission, but it was such a high quality one that we felt compelled to see its return. We also allowed Ghost/Fight & Drain Punch Mega Banette, a two buff submission.
Now for the pants-shitting explanation I'm sure you're demanding…one of our goals is to make viable as many unviable or flat out bad Pokemon. Sometimes, our rigid policy gets in the way of buffing something to the point of OU success. We felt that it was necessary to allow two buff submissions so that we can reach a much larger number of unviable Pokemon. At the same time, we really want to increase the quality of submissions. That is the reasoning behind Braviary. If we see something that people like so much but loses to something equally or more awesome, we will likely re-slate it because we are going to require a high degree of quality from here on out.
I know you all have questions regarding two-buff submissions. I will answer a few of the ones I anticipate, but please direct all two-buff questions to Sun King and Mysteria . You can reach us at our walls or via PM.
Q: What is eligible for two buffs?
A: Honestly, that still something we're trying to figure out. As a rule of thumb, I'd say anything RU and below. That doesn't mean things in UU can't receive two buffs, but I'd be surprised to see them from here on out.
Q: Are there any perks to putting one buff on a Pokemon?
A: We are going to consider one-buff submissions before two-buff submissions. We want to boost creativity as much as possible, so if a great OU viable buff can be accomplished with a single buff, that will be slated over a two-buff submission.
A: Honestly, that still something we're trying to figure out. As a rule of thumb, I'd say anything RU and below. That doesn't mean things in UU can't receive two buffs, but I'd be surprised to see them from here on out.
Q: Are there any perks to putting one buff on a Pokemon?
A: We are going to consider one-buff submissions before two-buff submissions. We want to boost creativity as much as possible, so if a great OU viable buff can be accomplished with a single buff, that will be slated over a two-buff submission.
This is a really effing awesome slate you guys. I expect to see GOOD DISCUSSION on each submission here. I do not want to see posts that list the four submissions and merely say how you feel about the submission. I want to see people talk about the effect on the metagame, list possible sets, checks/counters to the submission, play styles that benefit from the submission, and potential teammates for each one. I also want to see votes really pick up this round because I know we can do it.
Here's to a brighter theorymon future!
DISCUSS
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I feel like mega Camerupt will still need trick room to be at its most effective because of the recent rise in garchomp, as well as other threats:
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Camerupt: 326-386 (94.7 - 112.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Camerupt: 356-420 (103.4 - 122%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Camerupt: 484-569 (140.6 - 165.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Camerupt: 398-470 (115.6 - 136.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
also walled by air balloon 'tran
252+ SpA Mega Camerupt Hidden Power Grass vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 14-17 (3.6 - 4.4%) -- possibly the worst move ever
(i'm using the standard set here, nothing special)
(will edit in more about how powerful it is, etc later)
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Camerupt: 326-386 (94.7 - 112.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Camerupt: 356-420 (103.4 - 122%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Camerupt: 484-569 (140.6 - 165.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Camerupt: 398-470 (115.6 - 136.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
also walled by air balloon 'tran
252+ SpA Mega Camerupt Hidden Power Grass vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 14-17 (3.6 - 4.4%) -- possibly the worst move ever
(i'm using the standard set here, nothing special)
(will edit in more about how powerful it is, etc later)
hot
Cool thing about Espeed Braviary is that it gives it an edge against offense and benefits itself from having a STAB boosted +2 priority move. Idk I feel like maybe offense gets a big overhaul with that one though. STAB Espeed is a huge deal, see Arceus in ubers for example, so Idk if this would be a healthy trait more so the pinnacle of offense in terms of priority users.
Fiery Dance Noivern
An interesting concept. Similar to Nasty Plot only it maintains momentum and can actually set up on more things as it threatens to KO them. That said though it is only a 50% chance to boost SpA and it is only 1 stage. But all in all I think that given the speed this would make Noivern a terrific late game cleaner, just come in for the revenge and fire off of Fiery Dance vs something either weak to it or low enough to KO anyway, then if you get the boost you can go to town easily. It is a bit of a shame that some of the things Noivern can set up on are resistant to Fiery Dance in Water types like Keldeo and Fire types like Infernape, but there are still Grass and Bug types too, which almost guarantee Noivern a boost assuming that 50% proves to be lucky. At +1 Noivern should have more than enough speed, and just enough speed to breeze through weakened teams.
Here are a few decent calcs:
252 SpA Life Orb Noivern Fiery Dance vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 286-338 (81.2 - 96%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Noivern Fiery Dance vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Scizor: 374-442 (133 - 157.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Noivern Fiery Dance vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 250-294 (74.8 - 88%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Noivern Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 304-359 (78.9 - 93.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Noivern Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 220-261 (79.4 - 94.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
So once these are just slightly weakened Noivern would be able to roll through.
Flavour wise dragons breathe fire, so its ok cause it doesn't contradict.
Desolate Land Mega Camerupt
Water Immunity, boosted Fire STAB, and Solar Beam. Mega Camerupt is now an awesome pokemon. This thing alone could make Trick Room teams viable, let alone the rise in viability and usage from Reuniclus. Mega Camerupt loses the Sheer Force boost on Earth Power, but makes up for it with increased power of Fire Blast, and being able to use Solar Beam over Hidden Power Grass. Water types are now a liability against mega camerupt as they will be deemed unable to use their STAB and are nuked by Solar Beam. Mega Camerupt becomes a fantastic Water and Electric type check, being able to take on the likes of Choice Band Azumaril running Knock Off > Superpower. The greatest thing about Desolate Land Mega Camerupt however is this:
Rotom-W Volt Switch vs. Mega Camerupt: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time
Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. Mega Camerupt: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time
Rotom-W Will-O-Wisp vs. Mega Camerupt: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time
252+ SpA Mega Camerupt Solar Beam vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 294-348 (97 - 114.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
That's right, Mega Camerupt is the greatest "Fuck You" to Rotom-W in the entire pokemon world. Which is actually an extremely great feature as there are plenty of teams where at least 50% of the pokemon are wrecked by Rotom-W. 70/100/105 defences alongside only 1 weakness makes Mega Camerupt a terrific tank. With its unique typing allowing it to come in and check tonnes of relevant threats, and nuke almost the entire meta. This imo would easily make Mega Camerupt an A rank threat. But of course not broken. It has almost the worst speed in the game leaving it easily revenge killed, due to its lack of recovery from even the likes of leftovers, and vulnerability to every form of hazard. Not to mention, however it is its only weakness and an easy one to cover, a ground weakness is never good. There is no shortage of strong ground type pokemon and ground type coverage that will either kill you or force you out every time, wearing you down quite fast.
Extreme Speed Braviary
An old favorite for sure. I loved some of the pokemon from the old XY thread and this was easily in the top 3 coolest and most controversial winners. This thing is an epic Defiant abuser and I know, cause I've used it in the old project. Its great how Mega Manectric used to be one of the most reliable and threatening revenge killers to this thing, but now it is just a free Atk Boost.
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Noivern Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 220-261 (79.4 - 94.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
One thing that stands out to me though is that the Latis are able to OHKO it with Draco Meteor, which limits its use as a Defiant abuser being able to switch into them, that said though you can just keep Braviary in, spam Banded E-Speed and they'll never be able to Defog in the first place.
252+ Atk Choice Band Braviary Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 249-294 (83.2 - 98.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Banded STAB E-Speed is extremely scary even without Defiant boosts, but its still so beneficial that Landorus-T remains one of the most common pivots in OU.
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Braviary Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 330-388 (103.4 - 121.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Braviary Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 363-427 (95 - 111.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
In fact there isn't a single intimidate user in the game that switch into this guy now I don't think.
This is an extraordinary buff to Hyper Offense teams.
Also note that Bulk Up sets with max SpD would become far more powerful too as you aren't held back by lack of scarf or speed investment, due to having +2 priority on your STAB.
Ghost/Fighting Mega Banette with Drain Punch
This is pretty sweet. I'm think something along the lines of:
Banette @ Banettite
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Claw
- Drain Punch
- Destiny Bond
- Taunt / Will-O-Wisp
A set like this would be able to abuse its unresisted STAB coverage alongside utility moves like Taunt or Will-O-Wisp, an priority D-Bond to be decent against all archetypes. Vs Hyper Offense Prankster D-Bond and Will-O-Wisp are an absolute bitch. Its unresisted STAB would give balance a solid run for its money coming off 165 Base Attack. And between HP investment, Taunt and Drain Punch, even stall will struggle a little vs this thing, especially with passive mons that can't break it such as Chansey.
It also has Shadow Sneak or Sucker Punch if that's what you into.
Also Mega Banette is quite good at keeping its hazards up once its mega evolved between Spin Blocking, Priority Taut for Defoggers, and Prankster D-Bond for preventing Excadrill or Latios from killing you with Earthquake/Draco Meteor once you stop their hazard removal. Also those two are each weak to Mega Banette's new found dual STAB so can't switch in at all. Neither can Starmie.
So yeah another great addition to hazard stacking teams and Hyper Offense.
Epic slate council! :D
An interesting concept. Similar to Nasty Plot only it maintains momentum and can actually set up on more things as it threatens to KO them. That said though it is only a 50% chance to boost SpA and it is only 1 stage. But all in all I think that given the speed this would make Noivern a terrific late game cleaner, just come in for the revenge and fire off of Fiery Dance vs something either weak to it or low enough to KO anyway, then if you get the boost you can go to town easily. It is a bit of a shame that some of the things Noivern can set up on are resistant to Fiery Dance in Water types like Keldeo and Fire types like Infernape, but there are still Grass and Bug types too, which almost guarantee Noivern a boost assuming that 50% proves to be lucky. At +1 Noivern should have more than enough speed, and just enough speed to breeze through weakened teams.
Here are a few decent calcs:
252 SpA Life Orb Noivern Fiery Dance vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 286-338 (81.2 - 96%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Noivern Fiery Dance vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Scizor: 374-442 (133 - 157.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Noivern Fiery Dance vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 250-294 (74.8 - 88%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Noivern Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 304-359 (78.9 - 93.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Noivern Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 220-261 (79.4 - 94.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
So once these are just slightly weakened Noivern would be able to roll through.
Flavour wise dragons breathe fire, so its ok cause it doesn't contradict.
Desolate Land Mega Camerupt
Water Immunity, boosted Fire STAB, and Solar Beam. Mega Camerupt is now an awesome pokemon. This thing alone could make Trick Room teams viable, let alone the rise in viability and usage from Reuniclus. Mega Camerupt loses the Sheer Force boost on Earth Power, but makes up for it with increased power of Fire Blast, and being able to use Solar Beam over Hidden Power Grass. Water types are now a liability against mega camerupt as they will be deemed unable to use their STAB and are nuked by Solar Beam. Mega Camerupt becomes a fantastic Water and Electric type check, being able to take on the likes of Choice Band Azumaril running Knock Off > Superpower. The greatest thing about Desolate Land Mega Camerupt however is this:
Rotom-W Volt Switch vs. Mega Camerupt: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time
Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. Mega Camerupt: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time
Rotom-W Will-O-Wisp vs. Mega Camerupt: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time
252+ SpA Mega Camerupt Solar Beam vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 294-348 (97 - 114.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
That's right, Mega Camerupt is the greatest "Fuck You" to Rotom-W in the entire pokemon world. Which is actually an extremely great feature as there are plenty of teams where at least 50% of the pokemon are wrecked by Rotom-W. 70/100/105 defences alongside only 1 weakness makes Mega Camerupt a terrific tank. With its unique typing allowing it to come in and check tonnes of relevant threats, and nuke almost the entire meta. This imo would easily make Mega Camerupt an A rank threat. But of course not broken. It has almost the worst speed in the game leaving it easily revenge killed, due to its lack of recovery from even the likes of leftovers, and vulnerability to every form of hazard. Not to mention, however it is its only weakness and an easy one to cover, a ground weakness is never good. There is no shortage of strong ground type pokemon and ground type coverage that will either kill you or force you out every time, wearing you down quite fast.
Extreme Speed Braviary
An old favorite for sure. I loved some of the pokemon from the old XY thread and this was easily in the top 3 coolest and most controversial winners. This thing is an epic Defiant abuser and I know, cause I've used it in the old project. Its great how Mega Manectric used to be one of the most reliable and threatening revenge killers to this thing, but now it is just a free Atk Boost.
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Noivern Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 220-261 (79.4 - 94.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
One thing that stands out to me though is that the Latis are able to OHKO it with Draco Meteor, which limits its use as a Defiant abuser being able to switch into them, that said though you can just keep Braviary in, spam Banded E-Speed and they'll never be able to Defog in the first place.
252+ Atk Choice Band Braviary Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 249-294 (83.2 - 98.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Banded STAB E-Speed is extremely scary even without Defiant boosts, but its still so beneficial that Landorus-T remains one of the most common pivots in OU.
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Braviary Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 330-388 (103.4 - 121.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Braviary Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 363-427 (95 - 111.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
In fact there isn't a single intimidate user in the game that switch into this guy now I don't think.
This is an extraordinary buff to Hyper Offense teams.
Also note that Bulk Up sets with max SpD would become far more powerful too as you aren't held back by lack of scarf or speed investment, due to having +2 priority on your STAB.
Ghost/Fighting Mega Banette with Drain Punch
This is pretty sweet. I'm think something along the lines of:
Banette @ Banettite
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Claw
- Drain Punch
- Destiny Bond
- Taunt / Will-O-Wisp
A set like this would be able to abuse its unresisted STAB coverage alongside utility moves like Taunt or Will-O-Wisp, an priority D-Bond to be decent against all archetypes. Vs Hyper Offense Prankster D-Bond and Will-O-Wisp are an absolute bitch. Its unresisted STAB would give balance a solid run for its money coming off 165 Base Attack. And between HP investment, Taunt and Drain Punch, even stall will struggle a little vs this thing, especially with passive mons that can't break it such as Chansey.
It also has Shadow Sneak or Sucker Punch if that's what you into.
Also Mega Banette is quite good at keeping its hazards up once its mega evolved between Spin Blocking, Priority Taut for Defoggers, and Prankster D-Bond for preventing Excadrill or Latios from killing you with Earthquake/Draco Meteor once you stop their hazard removal. Also those two are each weak to Mega Banette's new found dual STAB so can't switch in at all. Neither can Starmie.
So yeah another great addition to hazard stacking teams and Hyper Offense.
Epic slate council! :D
Desolate Land Camerupt is probably one of the most fitting additions I've seen, and goddamn would it help this mon. Primal Groudon has proven how far that typing and ability combos can take a Pokemon, and Camerupt now has a serious means to compete as a Mega Wallbreaker. Losing Earth Power's boost is a bit of a loss, but it gains the same Fire Blast + Solarbeam coverage Zard-Y uses, hitting with only slightly less power than Zard-Y, and Earth Power is still a STAB that isn't easy to switch into if the latter 2 are resisted. Camerupt can also still use his mixed stats to decent effect, especially since his speed isn't anything worth investing. Camerupt checks every OU Electric type already thanks to his typing mitigating Boltbeam, bar LO Thundurus
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Camerupt: 160-188 (46.5 - 54.6%) -- 61.3% chance to 2HKO
And now goes from having an Achilles heel of Water to outright checking/countering a good number of them.
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Camerupt: 238-281 (69.1 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Camerupt: 139-165 (40.4 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Also mitigates a lot of Fairies, non EQ Metagross, and Rain.
Camerupt's bulk isn't too bad thanks to full HP investment (no more creeping SLOWBRO!!!), at least enough that neutral OHKO's require a boost or an obscene attacker, and Fire/Ground brings some decent resistances without the water weakness to worry about. I could see Camerupt as a Wallbreaker for Bulky offense or Trick Room teams, bringing pretty good bulk compared to other ludicrous wallbreakers (only Heracross has the same mixed bulk), especially since he invests in HP and has a pretty effective typing. He makes a very effective Blanket Electric and Water check for Balance teams while also offering offensive pressure, and Resttalk might even give him some way to be used on Stall if we're really stretching, thanks to an immunity to burns Stallbreakers like Mew depend on and decent natural power with the Harsh Sun. He actually makes a pretty good check to Manaphy, Gardevoir, and (if kept healthy and REALLY needs to) Kyu-B which are serious issues for defensive cores in general.
232 SpA Mega Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Camerupt: 154-183 (44.7 - 53.1%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO
+3 252+ SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Camerupt: 215-254 (62.5 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Camerupt: 255-302 (74.1 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Mega Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir in Harsh Sun: 247-292 (89.1 - 105.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Mega Camerupt Solar Beam vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 312-368 (85.4 - 100.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Mega Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B in Harsh Sun: 351-414 (89.7 - 105.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
Camerupt's speed obviously isn't winning him any places on Hyper Offense, but that's an impressive combination of offensive and defensive utility to offer to bulky or balanced teams, even for a Mega Slot. Those team archetypes are also less momentum reliant and can stack hazards or pack a cleric to try and keep him healthy. SR and/or a layer of Spikes is essentially all a well played Camerupt needs to net the player 2 kills a match.
Might analyze the others a bit later, but Camerupt intrigued me the most since Desolate Land basically turns one of the biggest flaws holding it back on its head.
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Camerupt: 160-188 (46.5 - 54.6%) -- 61.3% chance to 2HKO
And now goes from having an Achilles heel of Water to outright checking/countering a good number of them.
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Camerupt: 238-281 (69.1 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Camerupt: 139-165 (40.4 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Also mitigates a lot of Fairies, non EQ Metagross, and Rain.
Camerupt's bulk isn't too bad thanks to full HP investment (no more creeping SLOWBRO!!!), at least enough that neutral OHKO's require a boost or an obscene attacker, and Fire/Ground brings some decent resistances without the water weakness to worry about. I could see Camerupt as a Wallbreaker for Bulky offense or Trick Room teams, bringing pretty good bulk compared to other ludicrous wallbreakers (only Heracross has the same mixed bulk), especially since he invests in HP and has a pretty effective typing. He makes a very effective Blanket Electric and Water check for Balance teams while also offering offensive pressure, and Resttalk might even give him some way to be used on Stall if we're really stretching, thanks to an immunity to burns Stallbreakers like Mew depend on and decent natural power with the Harsh Sun. He actually makes a pretty good check to Manaphy, Gardevoir, and (if kept healthy and REALLY needs to) Kyu-B which are serious issues for defensive cores in general.
232 SpA Mega Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Camerupt: 154-183 (44.7 - 53.1%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO
+3 252+ SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Camerupt: 215-254 (62.5 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Camerupt: 255-302 (74.1 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Mega Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir in Harsh Sun: 247-292 (89.1 - 105.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Mega Camerupt Solar Beam vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 312-368 (85.4 - 100.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Mega Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B in Harsh Sun: 351-414 (89.7 - 105.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
Camerupt's speed obviously isn't winning him any places on Hyper Offense, but that's an impressive combination of offensive and defensive utility to offer to bulky or balanced teams, even for a Mega Slot. Those team archetypes are also less momentum reliant and can stack hazards or pack a cleric to try and keep him healthy. SR and/or a layer of Spikes is essentially all a well played Camerupt needs to net the player 2 kills a match.
Might analyze the others a bit later, but Camerupt intrigued me the most since Desolate Land basically turns one of the biggest flaws holding it back on its head.
Congratz to Sandslash for winning the slate! *new toy syndrome intensifies*
OH MY SHIT! Such a good slate with many good mons, including mine, hehe (actually, it's not really mine lol. It's mostly Sun King's proposition, but I did suggest a Fiery Dance buff).
Anyway, here are thoughts about this slate:
M-Camerupt + Desolate Land: gg rain teams. In all seriousness, much like PDon in Ubers, Desolate Land disrupts any kind of weather and replaces it with harsh sunshine, patching its quad weakness to Water-type moves and leaving it with only one weakness to Ground-type moves. The difference in power between having Desolate Land and Sheer Force has its pros and cons though: Fire Blast (or even Eruption if you feel ballsy enough) will have a 1.5x boost instead of a 1.3x, but all of its other moves (mainly Earth Power and Ancient Power) won't be boosted in any way by Desolate Land. On the hand, those moves will have their secondary effect back (even if they won't occur very often, they could come somewhat handy). Also, with its new ability, M-Camerupt could even use Lava Plume on some kind of defensively oriented set to burn opposing mons in a more reliable way (but it does get Will-O-Wisp for that too and Fire Blast is just monstrously strong, so I doubt Lava Plume is of any use) or Solar Beam to take out Water/Ground-types on the switch (or Water-types in general). Speaking of switches, I'm not sure if this buff is enough for Camerupt because once your opponent has a threatening Water-type on the field, Specs Keldeo for example, the opponent can (and probably will) predict the Camerupt switch-in to absorb the Hydro Pump/Scald and will switch to a M-Camerupt check, which will place the M-Camerupt user in a tough situation as he/she will probably be forced to switch out because of M-Camerupt's awful speed and make one of its teammates take a hit or two. In overall, Desolate Land would certainly help out M-Camerupt's viability in the metagame due to its weather team disrupting prowess and super strong Fire Blasts, but it still would be too darn slow and predictable to consistently and effectively fulfill its purpose.
Braviary + Extreme Speed: First of all, I'd like to remind everyone (including myself) what are its base stats: 100 / 123 / 75 / 57 / 75 / 80. Alright, so this thing makes me think about Bisharp a bit. Why? Defiant + priority + 120-something base Atk stat + mildly low speed. Only this time, Braviary gets to outspeed many major threats using priority moves. My only concern with this mon is that even if it has a nice HP stat, it still is pretty frail and it'll have some problem to switch in and out, taking hits by common Defoggers and also maybe SR damage in the process (or even Brave Bird recoil). On the other hand, Intimidate-ing mons are completely screwed by Braviary as it'll get a Defiant boost and badly hurt or straight up OHKO them with Extreme Speed:
Now that I think of it, this buff looks a lot like giving Defiant to Entei: both have Extreme Speed and are weak to SR. In overall, it's an excellent buff for Braviary that'll greatly help hyper offense builds.
Mega Banette + Ghost/Fighting typing and Drain Punch: Oooh that looks great! Recovery and perfect coverage? Now that's gotta be something! But seriously, STAB Drain Punch from a 165 base Atk stat will hurt a lot and regain plenty of its HP. Now give it priority status moves like Taunt, Will-O-Miss and Destiny Bond, and you got yourself one heck of an annoyance to face. Also, with its new typing, it takes some common moves like Sucker Punch, Pursuit and U-turn much better. Furthermore, despite gaining three weaknesses (Fairy, Flying and Psychic), most of them are covered by M-Banette's damaging and status moves (Psychics fear switching into a Shadow Claw and Fairies, mainly Azumarill, won't like being burned or Taunted). Talonflame is still a problem though (even if it can't directly switch into M-Banette since Shadow Claw + Brave Bird recoil results in a double down exactly half the time) as Brave Bird OHKOes it.
I'll write/talk more about M-Banette and, of course, Noivern later (probably tomorrow morning).
OH MY SHIT! Such a good slate with many good mons, including mine, hehe (actually, it's not really mine lol. It's mostly Sun King's proposition, but I did suggest a Fiery Dance buff).
Anyway, here are thoughts about this slate:
M-Camerupt + Desolate Land: gg rain teams. In all seriousness, much like PDon in Ubers, Desolate Land disrupts any kind of weather and replaces it with harsh sunshine, patching its quad weakness to Water-type moves and leaving it with only one weakness to Ground-type moves. The difference in power between having Desolate Land and Sheer Force has its pros and cons though: Fire Blast (or even Eruption if you feel ballsy enough) will have a 1.5x boost instead of a 1.3x, but all of its other moves (mainly Earth Power and Ancient Power) won't be boosted in any way by Desolate Land. On the hand, those moves will have their secondary effect back (even if they won't occur very often, they could come somewhat handy). Also, with its new ability, M-Camerupt could even use Lava Plume on some kind of defensively oriented set to burn opposing mons in a more reliable way (but it does get Will-O-Wisp for that too and Fire Blast is just monstrously strong, so I doubt Lava Plume is of any use) or Solar Beam to take out Water/Ground-types on the switch (or Water-types in general). Speaking of switches, I'm not sure if this buff is enough for Camerupt because once your opponent has a threatening Water-type on the field, Specs Keldeo for example, the opponent can (and probably will) predict the Camerupt switch-in to absorb the Hydro Pump/Scald and will switch to a M-Camerupt check, which will place the M-Camerupt user in a tough situation as he/she will probably be forced to switch out because of M-Camerupt's awful speed and make one of its teammates take a hit or two. In overall, Desolate Land would certainly help out M-Camerupt's viability in the metagame due to its weather team disrupting prowess and super strong Fire Blasts, but it still would be too darn slow and predictable to consistently and effectively fulfill its purpose.
Braviary + Extreme Speed: First of all, I'd like to remind everyone (including myself) what are its base stats: 100 / 123 / 75 / 57 / 75 / 80. Alright, so this thing makes me think about Bisharp a bit. Why? Defiant + priority + 120-something base Atk stat + mildly low speed. Only this time, Braviary gets to outspeed many major threats using priority moves. My only concern with this mon is that even if it has a nice HP stat, it still is pretty frail and it'll have some problem to switch in and out, taking hits by common Defoggers and also maybe SR damage in the process (or even Brave Bird recoil). On the other hand, Intimidate-ing mons are completely screwed by Braviary as it'll get a Defiant boost and badly hurt or straight up OHKO them with Extreme Speed:
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Braviary Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 288-339 (87 - 102.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO (the boost is from normal Gyarados and it has a 93.8% chance to OHKO after SR)
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Braviary Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 330-388 (103.4 - 121.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Braviary Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 363-427 (95 - 111.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO (guaranteed OHKO after SR)
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Braviary Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Manectric: 372-438 (132.3 - 155.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Braviary Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 330-388 (103.4 - 121.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Braviary Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 363-427 (95 - 111.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO (guaranteed OHKO after SR)
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Braviary Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Manectric: 372-438 (132.3 - 155.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Mega Banette + Ghost/Fighting typing and Drain Punch: Oooh that looks great! Recovery and perfect coverage? Now that's gotta be something! But seriously, STAB Drain Punch from a 165 base Atk stat will hurt a lot and regain plenty of its HP. Now give it priority status moves like Taunt, Will-O-Miss and Destiny Bond, and you got yourself one heck of an annoyance to face. Also, with its new typing, it takes some common moves like Sucker Punch, Pursuit and U-turn much better. Furthermore, despite gaining three weaknesses (Fairy, Flying and Psychic), most of them are covered by M-Banette's damaging and status moves (Psychics fear switching into a Shadow Claw and Fairies, mainly Azumarill, won't like being burned or Taunted). Talonflame is still a problem though (even if it can't directly switch into M-Banette since Shadow Claw + Brave Bird recoil results in a double down exactly half the time) as Brave Bird OHKOes it.
I'll write/talk more about M-Banette and, of course, Noivern later (probably tomorrow morning).
Oh man, I'm really loving these changes. Some Pokemon like Shuckle can never get around with just one buff, so finding creative ways to give two buffs to Pokemon (just a friendly reminder not to make anything broken, like Tail Glow + Simple) will certainly add extra depth to Theorymonning. Also the nostalgia rush from Theorymons past getting reslated is a great feeling, with such classics as Defog Hydreigon, Drought Torterra, Gale Wings Salamence, and more. Plus, second placers are also fair game, so get your Sand Rush Cacturne votes ready guys.
Fiery Dance Noivern: One of Noivern's largest shortcomings has always been its severe lack of power, which was made even more severe since it lacked any setup moves. Fiery Dance remedies this by a good deal, as it's only slightly weaker than Flamethrower and can grant Noivern +1 Special Attack for free. This can potentially make Noivern difficult to approach since it can force foes that don't want to be revenge killed out and throw out a Fiery Dance to possibly get to +1. This makes switching out a difficult choice, as you either have to run the risk of Noivern revenge killing the Pokemon in front of it or have it gain power because you switched. The only complaint I have with this is the inconsistency of having an effect that kicks in 50% of the time. So half the time a good play with Fiery Dance could come up with no notable results. I understand that the potential to get to +1 is huge on a sweeper, but I'm not one to rely on shaky tactics like this. Might be my bias against luck kicking in, but I stand my ground.
Desolate Land Mega Camerupt: What a middle finger towards rain teams. A Pokemon that's 4x weak to Water switching into Water-type moves and takes no damage from them is probably really painful for rain team users to think about. But a Water immunity isn't the only benefit here, as getting powered up Fire-type moves and gaining immediate Solar Beams really adds to its offensive power. Delta Stream Mandibuzz may have been able to block rain teams, but Mega Camerupt can be a true offensive threat to them thanks to Solar Beam and a Water immunity. But some of Mega Camerupt's flaws are still present, such as it's incredibly unusable-out-of Trick-Room Speed and only decent defenses. You could even say Mega Camerupt's offensive power outside of Fire-type moves dropped a bit, since Earth Power and Ancientpower are no longer powered up by Sheer Force, but these are somewhat moot points. While some of Mega Camerupt's flaws are still problematic, Desolate Land fixes some of its problems with benefits, and I'm really liking this one.
Extreme Speed Braviary:
Muh baby! <3
I had brought this one up ages ago in the original Theorymon thread, so it's a nice and nostalgic to see it slated all over again. Don't worry, I'll do my best to avoid bias here.
With Extreme Speed, Braviary's offensive potential has skyrocketed to crazy heights. Extreme Speed really compliments Defiant, as switching into Defog or getting Intimidated will give Braviary a free power boost. This allows Braviary to severely damage common Defoggers, such as Latios, Mega Scizor, and Skarmory, as well as Intimidators like Landorus-T and Mega Manectric. Braviary's Extreme Speed is only slightly weaker than Talonflame's Brave Bird, which is insignificant when factoring in Extreme Speed's +2 priority. Speaking of Talonflame, Braviary would be a pretty cool Bird Spam partner, as it punishes Defogs that attempt to remove hazards you lay down and has Superpower for Rock-types. Several sets could be made possible, like Choice Band for revenge killing potential, Life Orb for more consistent walllbreaking since its only recoil move is Brave Bird, or even a Bulk Up set to sweep bulky teams, so it shouldn't be too hard to add to teams. It's really nice to relive some of the past, and I really do hope Braviary wins so I can use it again.
Ghost/Fighting Drain Punch Mega Banette: I know there should be a bit of hype going on with this one, as this is the first Theorymon to get two buffs (after Rotom-Fan), but I'm kind of shifting back and forth with this one. With STAB Drain Punch, Mega Banette can deal much more damage to Steel- and Dark-types, gain health while dealing damage, and gains unresisted dual STAB coverage. Unresisted coverage with just two moves is great for a wallbreaker, as it can now use Prankster moves to disrupt the opponents, like Will-O-Wisp, Taunt, Destiny Bond, Thunder Wave, and plenty more; this is something that no other wallbreaker can brag about. But my concern lies in Mega Banette's poor stats outside of Attack, as 64 / 75 / 83 defenses are shaky at best, and base 75 Speed is only decent in terms of wallbreakers while being outsped by every relevant sweeper. If Mega Banette either had good bulk or good Speed to back it up, I'd say that this is a great Theorymon, but I'm having a hard time looking past its stats. I acknowledge its strong and unique points, but I'm kind of on the fence here.
Fiery Dance Noivern: One of Noivern's largest shortcomings has always been its severe lack of power, which was made even more severe since it lacked any setup moves. Fiery Dance remedies this by a good deal, as it's only slightly weaker than Flamethrower and can grant Noivern +1 Special Attack for free. This can potentially make Noivern difficult to approach since it can force foes that don't want to be revenge killed out and throw out a Fiery Dance to possibly get to +1. This makes switching out a difficult choice, as you either have to run the risk of Noivern revenge killing the Pokemon in front of it or have it gain power because you switched. The only complaint I have with this is the inconsistency of having an effect that kicks in 50% of the time. So half the time a good play with Fiery Dance could come up with no notable results. I understand that the potential to get to +1 is huge on a sweeper, but I'm not one to rely on shaky tactics like this. Might be my bias against luck kicking in, but I stand my ground.
Desolate Land Mega Camerupt: What a middle finger towards rain teams. A Pokemon that's 4x weak to Water switching into Water-type moves and takes no damage from them is probably really painful for rain team users to think about. But a Water immunity isn't the only benefit here, as getting powered up Fire-type moves and gaining immediate Solar Beams really adds to its offensive power. Delta Stream Mandibuzz may have been able to block rain teams, but Mega Camerupt can be a true offensive threat to them thanks to Solar Beam and a Water immunity. But some of Mega Camerupt's flaws are still present, such as it's incredibly unusable-out-of Trick-Room Speed and only decent defenses. You could even say Mega Camerupt's offensive power outside of Fire-type moves dropped a bit, since Earth Power and Ancientpower are no longer powered up by Sheer Force, but these are somewhat moot points. While some of Mega Camerupt's flaws are still problematic, Desolate Land fixes some of its problems with benefits, and I'm really liking this one.
Extreme Speed Braviary:
Muh baby! <3
I had brought this one up ages ago in the original Theorymon thread, so it's a nice and nostalgic to see it slated all over again. Don't worry, I'll do my best to avoid bias here.
With Extreme Speed, Braviary's offensive potential has skyrocketed to crazy heights. Extreme Speed really compliments Defiant, as switching into Defog or getting Intimidated will give Braviary a free power boost. This allows Braviary to severely damage common Defoggers, such as Latios, Mega Scizor, and Skarmory, as well as Intimidators like Landorus-T and Mega Manectric. Braviary's Extreme Speed is only slightly weaker than Talonflame's Brave Bird, which is insignificant when factoring in Extreme Speed's +2 priority. Speaking of Talonflame, Braviary would be a pretty cool Bird Spam partner, as it punishes Defogs that attempt to remove hazards you lay down and has Superpower for Rock-types. Several sets could be made possible, like Choice Band for revenge killing potential, Life Orb for more consistent walllbreaking since its only recoil move is Brave Bird, or even a Bulk Up set to sweep bulky teams, so it shouldn't be too hard to add to teams. It's really nice to relive some of the past, and I really do hope Braviary wins so I can use it again.
Ghost/Fighting Drain Punch Mega Banette: I know there should be a bit of hype going on with this one, as this is the first Theorymon to get two buffs (after Rotom-Fan), but I'm kind of shifting back and forth with this one. With STAB Drain Punch, Mega Banette can deal much more damage to Steel- and Dark-types, gain health while dealing damage, and gains unresisted dual STAB coverage. Unresisted coverage with just two moves is great for a wallbreaker, as it can now use Prankster moves to disrupt the opponents, like Will-O-Wisp, Taunt, Destiny Bond, Thunder Wave, and plenty more; this is something that no other wallbreaker can brag about. But my concern lies in Mega Banette's poor stats outside of Attack, as 64 / 75 / 83 defenses are shaky at best, and base 75 Speed is only decent in terms of wallbreakers while being outsped by every relevant sweeper. If Mega Banette either had good bulk or good Speed to back it up, I'd say that this is a great Theorymon, but I'm having a hard time looking past its stats. I acknowledge its strong and unique points, but I'm kind of on the fence here.
Holy crap this slate, noivern seems the weakest of the bunch but still a good idea. I would normally groan over something like desolate land being given to a mon but it makes sense on megarupt and buffs to trick room teams seem like a cool idea but I'm sure he would see use outside of trickroom too, one weakness thats complimented by levitates and flying types gives him some staying power. Freedom bird gets some cool tools to play with too like rock slide,u-turn and superpower but unfortunately no boosting outside of defiant, I could see use for him on offense still.
Mega banette seems to be my favorite though, fighting/ghost gives perfect coverage for that gigantic attack stat to abuse. It can afford to run two attacks and two annoyance moves like WoW, t-wave, d-bond,taunt(and cotton guard lol). Really cool submission and I wanted mega-banette to be a good mon since it came out so +1 for that.
Edit: Actually just thought of a super cheesy set for mega-banette now. WoW/calm mind/taunt/drain punch. Burn physical attackers, calm mind boost for special attackers, taunt status users and drain punch for heal. Ideally you come in on a physical attacker, burn it, calm mind on switch and calm mind again if its a special attacker for the +2. It's completely shut down by ghosts but still would be cool to pull off.
Mega banette seems to be my favorite though, fighting/ghost gives perfect coverage for that gigantic attack stat to abuse. It can afford to run two attacks and two annoyance moves like WoW, t-wave, d-bond,taunt(and cotton guard lol). Really cool submission and I wanted mega-banette to be a good mon since it came out so +1 for that.
Edit: Actually just thought of a super cheesy set for mega-banette now. WoW/calm mind/taunt/drain punch. Burn physical attackers, calm mind boost for special attackers, taunt status users and drain punch for heal. Ideally you come in on a physical attacker, burn it, calm mind on switch and calm mind again if its a special attacker for the +2. It's completely shut down by ghosts but still would be cool to pull off.
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.....,..sand rush cacturne? :D
Now to avoid just that, i guess ill look at rest of this. I really dont wamma go with banette and camerupt (never liked that ghost and i dont wamt to go pidgeon holing back into another ground type...) so ill just talk bout Braviary and Noivern then.
Braviary was, as stated, from that first project that i assisted in with Alexwolf. That thing was hell back in the days of the Deo twins and was contoversial at the time because that DeoSharp core was so popular and most didnt wanna deal with a STAB defiant E-Speed. Now though in a more...accommodating meta with more emphasis on intimidate and a bit more prominent resists, braviary could be fun. He was a favorite to abuse and his power would be welcome with open arms again (sub bulk up set was my favorite then).
Then ya got Noivern. We all know the thing is piss poor weak so having a move that has alright base power with a great chance to boost is very nice. Sure its gonna be annoying when it doesnt get a boost, but this fella will be steamrolling his way through people to get that boost (hopefully). He has speed, he has the typing and moves just that lackluster power will always hold him back. Will a boost and attack help him survive? Maybe. Maybe.
Now back to being happy of my Sand Rush Cacturne and idea of Excadrill weilding Cacturne as a club to hit stuff with (some sand team of Cacturne, Sandslash and Exca. Gonna be fun indeed). I missed that image
Noivern+Fiery Dance: Now we have a fast dragon that isn't mega and can beat steel types mostly. sometimes. maybe? Actually it doesn't matter because what it can now do is threaten them with a 100% accurate move that's also a free half calm mind 50% of time(and 50 is so close to 60 and 60=100 so yeah). Not being walled by ferro cos your focus blast missed is huge, but more than that, it now has a move to spam on a forced switch. I think a set of
Draco | Hurricane | Fiery Dance | HP Ground / Roost
would be really good. Focus Blast hit all steels hard, Fiery Dance does about same besides Heatran, so no point in Focus when HP Ground is more accurate. Or you could be a man and run Dugtrio! So yeah Heatran becomes a check now(or a counter, whichever can come in most times) but has to scout of HP Ground. AV Azu also becomes notable cos tank hits and fire off Play Rough. 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 SpD Calm Unaware Clefable is also a nice answer, but be careful with hazards and status. uhhhhhhh i think 6 lines is fair enough for something that makes me unsure of where its eyes are
Mega Camerupt+Desolate Land: nuuuuuuuuuuuu
uuuuu
u
urgh i'm sorry if this comes off as offensive but this is just a mindless buff that i really dont like. Look at ubers, Desolate Land owns, even when there's pogre to switch in. Now with DL Mega Camel, we would see stupid Cloud Nine Golducks everywhere. ik it makes Camerupt really good to use but it's not a positive for the meta imo. The only thing i guess it does is stop Scald spam. Hopefully i didnt miss anything while thinking but bulky chomp is one of the few switch-ins to this thing, and it can't ohko with eq and can only come in once anyway. Maybe SpDef Dragonite but that isn't a popular thing atm. There are the blobs that ran way from Pokemon Centers to fight but even then we counted it's answers on one hand i guess. i MIGHT be forgetting something niche(maybe Mega Latias) but there shouldnt be many of those.
Also this makes in-game difficult if you're against the red-color team :[
Braviary+Extreme Speed: With WCOP coming Murica mascot gets some love. I really forgot it gets Defiant before reading Salemance's post, and that makes it very interesting. Have ever had a Shadow Ball from your Sengar drop the SpDef of the switched-in Bisharp. How many pillows did you tear apart on that eventful night? ESpeed Braviary is gonna be soooooo good! RIGHT? right? will it be good? Actually idk cos as much as Defiant is being hyped, it doesn't even need it, packing 123 Atk. I really dont know how good it'll be, with only 2 possible sets(i guess) in Band and Sub+Bulk Up, i think it'll be average-ish, but im not sure about its future. Bird Spam might become better, which mean defensive Zapdos rises in usage, and maybe Bronzong o_0
Mega Banette+Fightng Type+Drain Punch: hmm this is interesting. We dont have a ghost-fighting iirc, it looks pretty straightforward. Isa Simple's set looks nice, though i'd run 4 in Spe cos 4SpD really doesn't accomplish anything, while 4Spe allows you to Taunt Klefki before it does anything, then burn cos you take ~30 i guess from Play Rough and even less from Dazzling Gleam, though Foul OHKO's if not burned, 2HKO's when burned. 216 Spe outspeeds Adamant Bisharp, thought you should always burn is first fwiw. Not to forget the massive Atk it has(5 less than Mega Chomp) so it can dish out hits as well. I suck at building so idk what might be good partners for it, but it really works on balance. Mega Sab is the ultimate answer unless you're real and use Foresight and Sab has been chipped well enough.
Note to ambitious self-acclaimed innovators: If you think you innovated cos you found Banette gets Dazzling Gleam
252+ SpA Mega Banette Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 136-162 (44.7 - 53.2%) -- 32.4% chance to 2HKO
Sun King DID I DO IT RIGHT??!!
edit: while cooking up DL Mega Camel answer, i messed up my calc and had Sheer Force with sun on, so regular latis can switch in, but Fire Blast 2hko's Latios while Draco doesnt ohko, Latias is 2ko'd with some prior chip damage, Draco doesn't ohko, i dont count banking on Fire Blast misses while roosting as an answer, tho y pp stalling is neat.
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SparksBlade
Here is a list of pokemon that can avoid the 2HKO from Desolate Land Mega Camerupt:
• Balloon Heatran
• SpD Malt
• Cloud Nine Altaria (even offensive spreads)
• Bulky DD Gyarados
• Stall breaker Talonflame
• Latias, Mega Latias
• DD Dragonite (can literally just spam faster Roosts to keep up Multiscale till Fire Blast Misses)
• SpD Dragonite
• Chansey
• Blissey
• AV Tyranitar
• AV Goodra
• SpD Porygon 2 (Fire Blast has 3.1% chance to 2HKO)
• SpD Rotom-H
• SubCoil Zygarde.
The list of things that can survive one hit and proceed to OHKO, particularly with ground STAB is also solid enough, lets not forget that Garchomp is the most used pokemon in the tier atm.
And given its vulnerability to all forms of hazard, as well as 0 recovery, not even from leftovers, it should be easy enough to wear down to a point where you can revenge kill it.
As for Cloud Nine Golducks, I'm pretty sure people would just run Cloud Nine on pre mega Altaria lol. Many don't actually utilise Nature Care much anyway, plus it helps vs Sand and Rain.
EDIT: I know a lot of the mons/sets I listed aren't necessarily used too often in the current meta but I think want to state that they are still definitely viable for things outside of Mega Camerupt.
Here is a list of pokemon that can avoid the 2HKO from Desolate Land Mega Camerupt:
• Balloon Heatran
• SpD Malt
• Cloud Nine Altaria (even offensive spreads)
• Bulky DD Gyarados
• Stall breaker Talonflame
• Latias, Mega Latias
• DD Dragonite (can literally just spam faster Roosts to keep up Multiscale till Fire Blast Misses)
• SpD Dragonite
• Chansey
• Blissey
• AV Tyranitar
• AV Goodra
• SpD Porygon 2 (Fire Blast has 3.1% chance to 2HKO)
• SpD Rotom-H
• SubCoil Zygarde.
The list of things that can survive one hit and proceed to OHKO, particularly with ground STAB is also solid enough, lets not forget that Garchomp is the most used pokemon in the tier atm.
And given its vulnerability to all forms of hazard, as well as 0 recovery, not even from leftovers, it should be easy enough to wear down to a point where you can revenge kill it.
As for Cloud Nine Golducks, I'm pretty sure people would just run Cloud Nine on pre mega Altaria lol. Many don't actually utilise Nature Care much anyway, plus it helps vs Sand and Rain.
EDIT: I know a lot of the mons/sets I listed aren't necessarily used too often in the current meta but I think want to state that they are still definitely viable for things outside of Mega Camerupt.
I'm gonna add more later, but I'll just post about my favorite right now:
Ghost/Fighting Mega Banette with Drain Punch
I lovelovelovelovelove this one. Right now I'm thinking a set something like the following:
Banette @ Banettite
Ability: Frisk --> Prankster
Adamant Nature
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
- Substitute
- Drain Punch
- Shadow Claw
- Knock Off / Gunk Shot / Sucker Punch
Edit: sorry Sun King :c
Substitute, especially with Prankster, eats up status and seeding, and gives a nice fallback against priority. Drain Punch works extremely well with this, providing a powerful STAB option while recovering health. Shadow Claw is another STAB, and the fourth move's kind of a toss-up. You can run the options listed, T-wave, Taunt... heck, you could run Cotton Guard and a specially defensive set if you wanted, now that you've got Drain Punch's recovery. I might look into a specialized EV spread later, but right now it's just a standard spread.
Ghost/Fighting Mega Banette with Drain Punch
I lovelovelovelovelove this one. Right now I'm thinking a set something like the following:
Banette @ Banettite
Ability: Frisk --> Prankster
Adamant Nature
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
- Substitute
- Drain Punch
- Shadow Claw
- Knock Off / Gunk Shot / Sucker Punch
Edit: sorry Sun King :c
Substitute, especially with Prankster, eats up status and seeding, and gives a nice fallback against priority. Drain Punch works extremely well with this, providing a powerful STAB option while recovering health. Shadow Claw is another STAB, and the fourth move's kind of a toss-up. You can run the options listed, T-wave, Taunt... heck, you could run Cotton Guard and a specially defensive set if you wanted, now that you've got Drain Punch's recovery. I might look into a specialized EV spread later, but right now it's just a standard spread.
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This is the opposite of mindless. It creates a niche that nothing else can fill in OU. Mega Camerupt is the only thing that can negate Water moves yet threaten Water types trying to switch in. It also is the only viable thing immune to both Water and Electric. These immunities alone allow for some pretty creative set-building. It also becomes a fantastic anti-Rain team building component.
I'm going to formally define what a "mindless buff" is so that the thread can stop throwing this term around…
A mindless buff is something that doesn't add any new niche for the Pokemon. An example would be Adaptability Mega Latios. Adaptability doesn't really tack on anything new for Mega Latios; it just hits shit way harder. Things that would have been 2HKOs turn into OHKOs; 3HKOs become 2HKOs. Defensively speaking, a mindless buff would be giving Fur Coat to Blissey. All it really does is help Blissey stomach physical hits a little better.
When thinking of buffs, think to yourself, "What does this add to OU that doesn't already exist?" Adding Pure Power/Huge Power to something may not be mindless because it allows something to suddenly become a wall breaker; however, it adds yet another wall breaker to OU and there are already a million wall breakers. Things like Mega Camerupt are slated because although it's a wall breaker, it has a niche in Desolate Land and an Electric immunity. Mega Camerupt becomes a Rain-stopper, which pretty much nothing else can do.
I can assure everyone that nothing on the current slate is mindless. I am usually the first person in the council to reject a submission on the grounds of being mindless.
Carry on with discussion; it looks good so far. Maybe we can start seeing some partners for these submissions soon?
EDIT: If you're going to post a set, please explain the set completely. Talk about why you used the EVs and moves. Explain each move; talk about weaknesses to the set. Please don't just post a set and call it a day. That doesn't really add anything to the discussion.
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Bulk up?
Minor nitpick; Gastrodon is also viable and immune to Electric and Water.
But yeah I'm not entirely sure where 'mindless' comes from and at the point we apply it to Desolate Land M-Camerupt the line of what's mindless and what isn't becomes really blurred and arbitrary. There's an argument for M-Camerupt with this ability maybe being broken, but it's a bit of a hazy one and it definitely isn't like we're slapping D-Dance on a 'mon with good attack but somewhat middling speed.
ANYWAY onto actually discussing the slate. Easily the best we've had in a while and I'm honestly having difficulty deciding which one I'd eventually vote for. But fuck it, let's go for creepy ghost
Sporting perfect neutral STAB coverage (unless we get a ghost/normal any time soon), Mega Banette went from that thing that looks hella rad and creepy but meh in battle to that thing that holy shit what do I switch in? The only big problem here is that you have to give up a utility move to use it's incredible dual STAB, which is important when it like Destiny Bond, Will-O-Wisp and Taunt in one set. At the same time, why Destiny Bond when you can kill everything with dat max attack 165 unresisted STAB? Unfortunately Ghost/Fighting doesn't do much for M-Banette defensively since it's still really frail - part of what makes it so weird; a prankster Pokémon with high attack and nothing else - but I honestly think this would be nothing but solid.
This one's... I'm really not sure. Y'see, the whole thing about it being viable on Volc is that Volc is already stupidly strong. It has 135 base Special Attack, a reliable way to set up which it always runs, and heck Fiery Dance is STAB on it anyway - Fiery Dance is run as a "might as well" thing because the power difference between it and Flamethrower is practically nill and sometimes you can get that really nice boost.
Why am I saying this when Fiery Dance would be an obvious improvement over Flamethrower on Noivern for the same reason? Well... because Volcarona doesn't rely on Fiery Dance to set up. It has Quiver Dance which is already the superior option; Fiery Dance is just a nice extra to the side pretty much. Noivern would rely on Fiery Dance. It has no other reliable way to set up and it's base 97 Special Attack is really bad. If you don't get that Special Attack raise - and it won't happen 50% of the time - then this does absolutely nothing for Noivern. Fiery Dance would be best suited to something that's already powerful and wants a special Fire move. Can't think of one off the top of my head; but you get the idea - this is unreliable boosting which is pretty bad.
Fucking amazing. I don't really think I need to say anything lol; STAB e-speed off of 123 attack is nothing but stupidly good, and then you go and chuck Defiant on top of it. What can I say, it's stupid good
Two things, because the rest of your post seems pretty sound.Minor nitpick; Gastrodon is also viable and immune to Electric and Water.
But yeah I'm not entirely sure where 'mindless' comes from and at the point we apply it to Desolate Land M-Camerupt the line of what's mindless and what isn't becomes really blurred and arbitrary. There's an argument for M-Camerupt with this ability maybe being broken, but it's a bit of a hazy one and it definitely isn't like we're slapping D-Dance on a 'mon with good attack but somewhat middling speed.
ANYWAY onto actually discussing the slate. Easily the best we've had in a while and I'm honestly having difficulty deciding which one I'd eventually vote for. But fuck it, let's go for creepy ghost
Sporting perfect neutral STAB coverage (unless we get a ghost/normal any time soon), Mega Banette went from that thing that looks hella rad and creepy but meh in battle to that thing that holy shit what do I switch in? The only big problem here is that you have to give up a utility move to use it's incredible dual STAB, which is important when it like Destiny Bond, Will-O-Wisp and Taunt in one set. At the same time, why Destiny Bond when you can kill everything with dat max attack 165 unresisted STAB? Unfortunately Ghost/Fighting doesn't do much for M-Banette defensively since it's still really frail - part of what makes it so weird; a prankster Pokémon with high attack and nothing else - but I honestly think this would be nothing but solid.
This one's... I'm really not sure. Y'see, the whole thing about it being viable on Volc is that Volc is already stupidly strong. It has 135 base Special Attack, a reliable way to set up which it always runs, and heck Fiery Dance is STAB on it anyway - Fiery Dance is run as a "might as well" thing because the power difference between it and Flamethrower is practically nill and sometimes you can get that really nice boost.
Why am I saying this when Fiery Dance would be an obvious improvement over Flamethrower on Noivern for the same reason? Well... because Volcarona doesn't rely on Fiery Dance to set up. It has Quiver Dance which is already the superior option; Fiery Dance is just a nice extra to the side pretty much. Noivern would rely on Fiery Dance. It has no other reliable way to set up and it's base 97 Special Attack is really bad. If you don't get that Special Attack raise - and it won't happen 50% of the time - then this does absolutely nothing for Noivern. Fiery Dance would be best suited to something that's already powerful and wants a special Fire move. Can't think of one off the top of my head; but you get the idea - this is unreliable boosting which is pretty bad.
Fucking amazing. I don't really think I need to say anything lol; STAB e-speed off of 123 attack is nothing but stupidly good, and then you go and chuck Defiant on top of it. What can I say, it's stupid good
1. Gastrodon is usable but questionably viable. It's very easily overwhelmed with the ORAS power creep.
2. Noivern doesn't use Fiery Dance to set up a sweep. It uses FD to clean up without losing momentum. Yes, it's only half reliable, but the fact that you don't waste a turn setting up means that you can become much more useful to your team. If you don't get the boost, you still didn't waste a turn setting up; you still put some chip damage in. Worst case scenario, you switch out and use Noivern again at a later time. Fiery Dance gives Noivern the opportunity to sweep earlier on if it gets the coin flip, and it's not comparable to Volcarona at all.
First of all..... council.... what a slate 
Jesus, all four are seriously cool, and this is the first slate in a while that I'm REALLY struggling to find a favorite.
Mega Camerupt: Something that people aren't discussing that much is that the devastating opportunity cost of using Mega Volcano as your mega is now a hell of a lot less. I can see this serving really well as a tank for Stall teams; partnered by Wish support (from anything, let's face it, that bulk :]), this could be really difficult to break. The added boon of Solar Power now makes it an absolute beast, as it really deals with weather setters exceedingly well:
252+ SpA Mega Camerupt Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Tyranitar: 348-410 (86.3 - 101.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Camerupt: 186-220 (54.2 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Camerupt: 236-282 (68.8 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Mega Camerupt Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 352-416 (83.8 - 99%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Mega Camerupt Solar Beam vs. 248 HP / 164+ SpD Politoed: 242-286 (63.1 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Mega Camerupt Ancient Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 276-328 (92.9 - 110.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mega Camerupt: 146-172 (42.5 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
I thought it might hard check both zards, but +1 dragon claw KO's 252 HP Camerupt, so it would just be a case of getting the right defensive investment.
Not to mention that in Trick Room, partnered with Cresselia who takes a grand total of Jack all from Earthquake, it becomes another beast entirely!
Another thing is that it's only weakness is the most exploitable in the game; the core of Mega-Manectric and Scarf Lando gets arseholed if Camerupt is partnered by Gyarados or Lando, or another non-grounded setup mon. Lando-T can't earthquake for fear of giving up a free turn, can't u-turn because something is getting totaled on the switch, and isn't doing much damage with other moves.
Nevertheless..... it is slow, its defenses aren't THAT great unless fully invested, so Close Combats, Stone Edges, and the like are doing serious damage, and it doesn't want to switch into anything it doesn't ABSOLUTELY wall.
Bear in mind that P-Groudon has 90 speed, more versatility, and 180/150 offenses with the same item restrictions, and you can appreciate that Mega Volcano is not getting close to that - it has to run almost full speed investment to outspeed Hippo.
The main thing that the buffs offer though is versatility. Now you can go taunt/WoW + 3 attacks, as Shadow Claw, Drain Punch and Knock Off/Sucker Punch is really difficult to switch into coming off that attack stat. The Dark neutrality is a massive boon as well, as this happens:
252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Banette: 172-203 (51.8 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Switch in, WoW, Drain Punch, win.
Braviary (M) @ Life Orb / Silk Scarf
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly/Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Bulk Up
- Brave Bird
- Superpower
Max Speed to outspeed Loom/Sharp/Diggersby, or if you have Spikes support, Adamant can be used. Brave Bird for taking Gengar down on the switch, and Superpower for TTar/Tran/Steels apart from Skarmory
Although, if you don't want to just rely on Defiant, Sheer Force could act as a fantastic Skarm/Scizor lure:
0- SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Braviary Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 177-211 (52.9 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0- SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Braviary Heat Wave vs. 248 HP / 200 SpD Mega Scizor: 224-265 (65.3 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
One thing to remember is that it hits harder than E-Killer Arceus, thanks to that extra 3BP.
Tasty.
Noivern:
Right, so the only viable sets at the minute are Specs, and Life Orb, right? Specs because it really needs the power, and Life Orb because it REALLY wants to change moves. Fiery Dance gives it a 50%=100% chance of the power of Specs, while only really reducing the power of coverage that it is only going to be using as a SE hit. Sounds good to me! Would this + No Guard be too mindless? :P
At +1, with LO, Noivern gets tasty, and at +2, it can even threaten the Blob with a 2HKO!
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Noivern Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 283-335 (44 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
This thing is going to give HO teams hell with that excellent base speed.
The only issue with it is the low accuracy of its moves, along with that 50% chance and it's incredible frailty. I really like the submission though, wish I'd thought of it!
Jesus, all four are seriously cool, and this is the first slate in a while that I'm REALLY struggling to find a favorite.
Mega Camerupt: Something that people aren't discussing that much is that the devastating opportunity cost of using Mega Volcano as your mega is now a hell of a lot less. I can see this serving really well as a tank for Stall teams; partnered by Wish support (from anything, let's face it, that bulk :]), this could be really difficult to break. The added boon of Solar Power now makes it an absolute beast, as it really deals with weather setters exceedingly well:
252+ SpA Mega Camerupt Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Tyranitar: 348-410 (86.3 - 101.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Camerupt: 186-220 (54.2 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Camerupt: 236-282 (68.8 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Mega Camerupt Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 352-416 (83.8 - 99%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Mega Camerupt Solar Beam vs. 248 HP / 164+ SpD Politoed: 242-286 (63.1 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Mega Camerupt Ancient Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 276-328 (92.9 - 110.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mega Camerupt: 146-172 (42.5 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
I thought it might hard check both zards, but +1 dragon claw KO's 252 HP Camerupt, so it would just be a case of getting the right defensive investment.
Not to mention that in Trick Room, partnered with Cresselia who takes a grand total of Jack all from Earthquake, it becomes another beast entirely!
Another thing is that it's only weakness is the most exploitable in the game; the core of Mega-Manectric and Scarf Lando gets arseholed if Camerupt is partnered by Gyarados or Lando, or another non-grounded setup mon. Lando-T can't earthquake for fear of giving up a free turn, can't u-turn because something is getting totaled on the switch, and isn't doing much damage with other moves.
Nevertheless..... it is slow, its defenses aren't THAT great unless fully invested, so Close Combats, Stone Edges, and the like are doing serious damage, and it doesn't want to switch into anything it doesn't ABSOLUTELY wall.
Bear in mind that P-Groudon has 90 speed, more versatility, and 180/150 offenses with the same item restrictions, and you can appreciate that Mega Volcano is not getting close to that - it has to run almost full speed investment to outspeed Hippo.
I just want to second this, as I've had a number of "mindless" submissions brutally quashed by Sun King.
Mega Banette: I really like this as well. Yesterday I got mauled by a set that Ben Gay suggested in the VR thread by a non-buffed Banette, and I know that it's a right swine to deal with. Most of that comes from the threat of priority D-Bond though, so I'm not sure how the added buffs would affect that being on it's moveset. This set sounds REALLY annoying, and aside from Gengar, Mega Eye and the Latis, sounds really difficult to take down. Pair it up with Lum Bisharp, ScarfTar, or Heatran, and it'd do some serious work. The main issue is it's lacklustre defenses, but I suppose with the aforementioned set you could fully invest in them and rely on Base 165 STAB Drain Punch for recovery.
The main thing that the buffs offer though is versatility. Now you can go taunt/WoW + 3 attacks, as Shadow Claw, Drain Punch and Knock Off/Sucker Punch is really difficult to switch into coming off that attack stat. The Dark neutrality is a massive boon as well, as this happens:
252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Banette: 172-203 (51.8 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Switch in, WoW, Drain Punch, win.
I think it can do more than 2 sets: it can also run a Defog set of it's own, as with E-speed, Superpower, and Brave Bird/Shadow Claw it has all the coverage it needs; a Sp.Def Bulk Up E-Speed resttalk set (with pursuit support from Bisharp, Scizor, or Ttar); it can run Tailwind Brave Bird E-Speed, it can run a Silk-Scarf Lure set; it can do a lot of really cool things. I like the look of this:
Braviary (M) @ Life Orb / Silk Scarf
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly/Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Bulk Up
- Brave Bird
- Superpower
Max Speed to outspeed Loom/Sharp/Diggersby, or if you have Spikes support, Adamant can be used. Brave Bird for taking Gengar down on the switch, and Superpower for TTar/Tran/Steels apart from Skarmory
Although, if you don't want to just rely on Defiant, Sheer Force could act as a fantastic Skarm/Scizor lure:
0- SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Braviary Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 177-211 (52.9 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0- SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Braviary Heat Wave vs. 248 HP / 200 SpD Mega Scizor: 224-265 (65.3 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
One thing to remember is that it hits harder than E-Killer Arceus, thanks to that extra 3BP.
Tasty.
Noivern:
Right, so the only viable sets at the minute are Specs, and Life Orb, right? Specs because it really needs the power, and Life Orb because it REALLY wants to change moves. Fiery Dance gives it a 50%=100% chance of the power of Specs, while only really reducing the power of coverage that it is only going to be using as a SE hit. Sounds good to me! Would this + No Guard be too mindless? :P
At +1, with LO, Noivern gets tasty, and at +2, it can even threaten the Blob with a 2HKO!
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Noivern Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 283-335 (44 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
This thing is going to give HO teams hell with that excellent base speed.
The only issue with it is the low accuracy of its moves, along with that 50% chance and it's incredible frailty. I really like the submission though, wish I'd thought of it!
Defog or TW on it will just be like 3 attacks + filler, so it isnt a dedicated defogger but something that might do it if it gets the space. idk if the resttalk set is good(doesnt look so but idk)
Now, as promised, my thoughts on our beloved bat-dragon!
Noivern + Fiery Dance: Sporting a rather subpar base 97 SpAtk, Noivern had a lot of problems to break past some bulkier mons, especially fat Steel-types as Focus Blast was its only answer against them, and a really shaky one due to its far-from-perfect accuracy. With Fiery Dance, Noivern can now simultaneously boost its SpAtk and deal great damage to those Steel-types (bar Heatran) and clean through teams if it gets the boost at the right time. With potential boosts, Noivern can now OHKO/2HKO certain mons it cound't wish to before:
Even if it can't get the boost, the opposing mon will be weakened and dealt with later by one of its teammates or by Noivern itself, easing its eventual sweep either way. Also, it's great speed tier makes it forced out by only a handful of faster threats and even less priority users. Speaking of being forced out, if you bring Noivern on a weakened mon, it'll be cornered in a tough situation as sacking your weakened mon to safely switch your Noivern check might just give it the SpAtk boost it needed to steamroll the rest of your team, but if you directly switch in your Noivern check, it might just get a strong Hurricane to the face, neutering its ability to consistently check Noivern later in the game.
Due to Fiery Dance's nature, I'm not sure if Draco Meteor is really wise to use as Dragon Pulse does about the same damage at +1, but I guess if it was to KO some specific mons like MegaZard-Y at +1 (Hurricane has 50% accuracy in the sun) and sweep later. Come to think of it, there's only a few that are hit harder by Dragon-type moves than its other moves, so I guess Draco Meteor could be alright. Taunt could be used in the last moveslot to screw up defensive/passive mons such as Chansey to force them out and boost Noivern's SpAtk. Of course, being weak to SR is an issue, so Rapid Spin/Defog support is strongly advised so that Noivern isn't worn down too quickly.
In overall, Noivern can be an incredible sweeper with great speed and excellent firepower once it gets at least one boost. It'll surely become a threat to prepare for as it might just destroy an entire team with the right conditions.
Noivern + Fiery Dance: Sporting a rather subpar base 97 SpAtk, Noivern had a lot of problems to break past some bulkier mons, especially fat Steel-types as Focus Blast was its only answer against them, and a really shaky one due to its far-from-perfect accuracy. With Fiery Dance, Noivern can now simultaneously boost its SpAtk and deal great damage to those Steel-types (bar Heatran) and clean through teams if it gets the boost at the right time. With potential boosts, Noivern can now OHKO/2HKO certain mons it cound't wish to before:
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Noivern Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 274-324 (94.1 - 111.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Noivern Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 343-406 (107.5 - 127.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Noivern Fiery Dance vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Metagross: 172-203 (57.1 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Noivern Hurricane vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 343-406 (89.3 - 105.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Noivern Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 341-402 (89.2 - 105.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Noivern Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 220-261 (79.4 - 94.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Noivern Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 343-406 (107.5 - 127.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Noivern Fiery Dance vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Metagross: 172-203 (57.1 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Noivern Hurricane vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 343-406 (89.3 - 105.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Noivern Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 341-402 (89.2 - 105.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Noivern Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 220-261 (79.4 - 94.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Due to Fiery Dance's nature, I'm not sure if Draco Meteor is really wise to use as Dragon Pulse does about the same damage at +1, but I guess if it was to KO some specific mons like MegaZard-Y at +1 (Hurricane has 50% accuracy in the sun) and sweep later. Come to think of it, there's only a few that are hit harder by Dragon-type moves than its other moves, so I guess Draco Meteor could be alright. Taunt could be used in the last moveslot to screw up defensive/passive mons such as Chansey to force them out and boost Noivern's SpAtk. Of course, being weak to SR is an issue, so Rapid Spin/Defog support is strongly advised so that Noivern isn't worn down too quickly.
In overall, Noivern can be an incredible sweeper with great speed and excellent firepower once it gets at least one boost. It'll surely become a threat to prepare for as it might just destroy an entire team with the right conditions.
Sorry but i didnt see your reply earlier Sun King(alert of the other reply was above yours).
Your first para is just an outline of gastro and DL+Mega Camel except for the viability point.
As for mindless idk if there's a set definition for mindless buff, but i relate it to anything that's damn too obv anyone would think of(focus blast mega pidg for example), and i dont like these in their own self, not cos they might be bad, but they're so damn obvious. It's rare i would actually approve for something like that to be added to Theorymons. I don't label bad nominations as mindless, but the extremely obvious ones that one would see in the lobby and ou room daily(Fur Coat Blissey).
As for "What does this add to OU that doesn't already exist?", im pretty sure it's too narrow of a guide to help. A lot of things dont exist in ou(multitype, perma weathers, dark void(idc if seargle gets it), geomancy, speed boost darmanitan) and not all of them are healthy for the meta. As for tackling rain, im pretty sure there are enough answers to rain and that's why it's nowhere near seem broken. It just makes it easier to stop rain, but then it adds more pressure while teambuilding as well, while single-handedly making rain as a playstyle unviable. Lando is being suspected for the same reason that it makes it difficult to use a certain playstyle, so idk why Mega Camel would be different.
I don't, and will never, question the efforts that the council puts in for this project, and know that i never hold you responsible you for any slate. If i dont like something, i have no reason to blame you guys cos i know you choose best 4 from whatever you have, and the sample pool should contain a lot of submissions from us so it's basically our fault if i dont like something. I have a lot of respect for all you guys, and if anything i ever did appears to contradict this, then I'm sorry but it wasn't meant to offend you people.
Also, apparently you didnt read till the end :[
Also Camel doesnt have just offensive sets, it could opt for something like resttalk wisp roar or something, but this just speculation so i can only talk of very concrete possibilities.
Your first para is just an outline of gastro and DL+Mega Camel except for the viability point.
As for mindless idk if there's a set definition for mindless buff, but i relate it to anything that's damn too obv anyone would think of(focus blast mega pidg for example), and i dont like these in their own self, not cos they might be bad, but they're so damn obvious. It's rare i would actually approve for something like that to be added to Theorymons. I don't label bad nominations as mindless, but the extremely obvious ones that one would see in the lobby and ou room daily(Fur Coat Blissey).
As for "What does this add to OU that doesn't already exist?", im pretty sure it's too narrow of a guide to help. A lot of things dont exist in ou(multitype, perma weathers, dark void(idc if seargle gets it), geomancy, speed boost darmanitan) and not all of them are healthy for the meta. As for tackling rain, im pretty sure there are enough answers to rain and that's why it's nowhere near seem broken. It just makes it easier to stop rain, but then it adds more pressure while teambuilding as well, while single-handedly making rain as a playstyle unviable. Lando is being suspected for the same reason that it makes it difficult to use a certain playstyle, so idk why Mega Camel would be different.
I don't, and will never, question the efforts that the council puts in for this project, and know that i never hold you responsible you for any slate. If i dont like something, i have no reason to blame you guys cos i know you choose best 4 from whatever you have, and the sample pool should contain a lot of submissions from us so it's basically our fault if i dont like something. I have a lot of respect for all you guys, and if anything i ever did appears to contradict this, then I'm sorry but it wasn't meant to offend you people.
Also, apparently you didnt read till the end :[
Isa Simple firstly, i did say im certainly missing some stuff
what i said for balloon tran applies to most stuff actually: they do not fit on everything
Also Camel doesnt have just offensive sets, it could opt for something like resttalk wisp roar or something, but this just speculation so i can only talk of very concrete possibilities.
I don't think my definition of mindless is limiting anything. As for a "set definition", what I posted is the set definition. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask that submissions add a new niche to the metagame. We want to increase the quality of submissions, so I want everyone to know what we are looking for.
About M-Camerupt, many people mentionned that it could finally get good use of Solar Beam with Desolate Land to nail Water-type mons. However, I don't think it should be used for that purpose. I mean, which Water-type mon would want to switch in and stay on that thing (Golduck of course!)? Fire Blast in harsh sunlight is enough to 2HKO frailer Water-type mons like Keldeo, Starmie and non-AV Azumarill (even Rotom-W after SR and Leftovers), and Earth power is enough for 2HKOing bulkier ones like M-Gyarados and Slowbro. Also, M-Camerupt is somewhat bulky with 70 / 100 / 105 defensive stats, so it can afford to take a non-STAB/resisted non-Water STAB hit from those mons if they're foolish enough to stay in, so I don't think Solar Beam is really necessary on M-Camerupt.
Speaking of bulky Water-type mons, CroCune, CroBro, CM Manaphy and Rotom-W (what about Lanturn?) can't even touch M-Camerupt nor can't it touch them (except for Rotom-W) unless of a crit. In conclusion, I won't vote for it as the impact on the metagame will be a bit much since it'll render some well-known team builds (mainly rain) and sets (mainly CroCune and CroBro) practically useless by its mere presence even though it's slow as hell.
Speaking of bulky Water-type mons, CroCune, CroBro, CM Manaphy and Rotom-W (
- Status