Considering N's castle is right behind the Pokemon League... he technically might not have to bother with facing anyone but the Elite Four to get to Alder. (since they have to be defeated in order to activate the statue that takes you to the Champion's chamber) As he's familiar with the location, he can easily ask his new legendary dragon friend to fly him there, and his 'Pokemon whisperer' gift allows him to do so without needing HM02. (nor the Jet badge required to use Fly outside of battle) And then, again, as Ghetsis' his goal was to have everyone release their Pokemon, he had little desire for the Champion title.
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SPOILERS! Mysteries and Conspiracies of Pokemon
- Thread starter stage7_4
- Start date
My theory is that N didn't necessarily make an official challenge to the League. He clearly had a means to get there considering it was where his castle was buried. My theory is that rather than an official challenge to the league, N simply stormed in and defeated the Elite 4 and the champion in an unofficial manner, but proclaimed himself the champion on the basis of defeating them. This theory could be supported by the fact that N is not entered in the Hall of Fame, since that seems to be done as much for official records as for personal acknowledgement, if the player's entry despite not taking the position indicates anything.
Alternatively, maybe the Sages gathered the badges in disguise. Their presence and evident need for the Gym Leaders to hold them off implies they're at least halfway competent battlers. Maybe they each challenged a Gym, since there's less news about each Gym being beaten by a different challenger than one challenger sweeping them, and if the "team based on number of badges" theory holds up, it would explain why the Gym Leaders could challenge them later: Each sage went in with no badges on them, so only had to beat the Leader's most basic team, as opposed to their best which they'd use at N's castle.
It might also just be that the Gym Leaders can't deny N the badge after a challenge. Despite spreading harmful propaganda, Team Plasma, or at least N himself, hasn't done anything on a hugely public level that is outright criminal, at least not before Alder gets involved, by which point they might have all the badges for all we know.
Alternatively, maybe the Sages gathered the badges in disguise. Their presence and evident need for the Gym Leaders to hold them off implies they're at least halfway competent battlers. Maybe they each challenged a Gym, since there's less news about each Gym being beaten by a different challenger than one challenger sweeping them, and if the "team based on number of badges" theory holds up, it would explain why the Gym Leaders could challenge them later: Each sage went in with no badges on them, so only had to beat the Leader's most basic team, as opposed to their best which they'd use at N's castle.
It might also just be that the Gym Leaders can't deny N the badge after a challenge. Despite spreading harmful propaganda, Team Plasma, or at least N himself, hasn't done anything on a hugely public level that is outright criminal, at least not before Alder gets involved, by which point they might have all the badges for all we know.
I'm pretty sure he wasn't in the Hall of Fame because you enter the room literally the moment he beat Alder, so he didn't exactly have time to get registered. Plus like it was said before, he probably didn't want to be recognized as such because it conflicted with his (then) ideals and wasn't really necessary for the plan.
N actually didn't proclaim himself the champion. He said that he was a trainer that was far stronger than the champion. That would seem to imply that he didn't become the champion, or, at least, he chose not to become it.
This might be the key: it wasn't an official match for Championship. We go through the requirements to challenge the Champion to become the new champ: get all eight badges and beat the Elite Four without access to a Center. N likely skipped that and just challenged Alder to a normal battle.
N did challenge the Elite Four, some mention battling him.
Shauntal said:
Grimsley said:
It's likely N didn't challenge any gyms, given the gigantic stink he raised about the ethics of pokemon battles and that until getting a legendary he never really carried any pokemon (in all the fights with him, the pokemon were from the surrounding area, meaning they were catch & release).
Given his goal was less "become Champion" and more "defeat the current Champion with a symbolic legendary dragon" he probably faced the elite four and Alder in a unorthodox unofficial match, and he got there via force with Final Fantasy VI's burrowing castle. The elite four probably got in his way in an attempt to soften N up for Alder, to no avail. N's victory was likely never going to be officially recorded, but N/Plasma didn't need it to be since it was just the act itself that mattered. Either that or his entire fight was invalidated because he did kind of hold the place hostage. That couldn't have been legal...
Plus he used a legendary in a Elite Four challenge like a scrub! We don't want no scrub! (a scrub is a trainer that can't get no E-X-P)
You the player had to do things legit since you are supposed to prove that the current system works as-is. If you skipped gyms or burrowed your way to Alder then you'd be proving that there's something messed up about the pokemon league, proving N correct. Sorta.
One question I always had was where N's other pokemon came from (Zoroark, gearface, ice-cream, and the two Unova fossils) despite his extreme displeasure of raising pokemon. I mean, the game reason was to give us a full fight of course, but what about plot-wise? The Zoroark could be related to the one in the intro-cutscene (and was raised with N), but I think the other four could have been revived/created on the spot by Ghetsis so N would have a full team for the elite four. At least that works for the fossils and maybe Klingklang. Maybe N went to Dairy Queen and willed his sundae to life?
Actually, I like the idea that Ghetsis set N's team up, since despite being a strong team, N's final team has a BIG fighting weakness, so Ghetsis might have helped him arrange his team with the intention of destroying them once N served his purpose. This theory would be cooler if Ghetsis actually used a fighting-type in B/W but I digress (he does have focus blast on his star-mon at least).
Given his goal was less "become Champion" and more "defeat the current Champion with a symbolic legendary dragon" he probably faced the elite four and Alder in a unorthodox unofficial match, and he got there via force with Final Fantasy VI's burrowing castle. The elite four probably got in his way in an attempt to soften N up for Alder, to no avail. N's victory was likely never going to be officially recorded, but N/Plasma didn't need it to be since it was just the act itself that mattered. Either that or his entire fight was invalidated because he did kind of hold the place hostage. That couldn't have been legal...
Plus he used a legendary in a Elite Four challenge like a scrub! We don't want no scrub! (a scrub is a trainer that can't get no E-X-P)
You the player had to do things legit since you are supposed to prove that the current system works as-is. If you skipped gyms or burrowed your way to Alder then you'd be proving that there's something messed up about the pokemon league, proving N correct. Sorta.
One question I always had was where N's other pokemon came from (Zoroark, gearface, ice-cream, and the two Unova fossils) despite his extreme displeasure of raising pokemon. I mean, the game reason was to give us a full fight of course, but what about plot-wise? The Zoroark could be related to the one in the intro-cutscene (and was raised with N), but I think the other four could have been revived/created on the spot by Ghetsis so N would have a full team for the elite four. At least that works for the fossils and maybe Klingklang. Maybe N went to Dairy Queen and willed his sundae to life?
Actually, I like the idea that Ghetsis set N's team up, since despite being a strong team, N's final team has a BIG fighting weakness, so Ghetsis might have helped him arrange his team with the intention of destroying them once N served his purpose. This theory would be cooler if Ghetsis actually used a fighting-type in B/W but I digress (he does have focus blast on his star-mon at least).
I think someone did point out that N's entire team, including his dragon, is weak to something Hydreigon carries, even before you look at the rest of his team's match up. The only ones with a chance are Zoroark and Archeops by outspeeding, though Zoroark is the only one with a SE move in Focus Blast. Oddly enough it would also be the only one Ghetsis didn't orchestrate N having for the battle in this theory.
I remember reading that idea too and it was very interesting. Ghetsis setting N up so that way he could take him. N's Carracosta, Archeops, and Klinklang could be taken down by Ghetsis's Seismitoad. Vanilluxe could be taken down by Eelectross. Zoroark and the Dragon by Hydreigon. (Maybe even Zoroark by Bisharp thanks to Metal Burst). Either way, it does look like Ghetsis set up N to be defeated by him...
As for where N got his other Pokemon. Before B2W2, I figured Klinklang was just the same Klink he captured before then (being told by his sages to keep it for his fight). Of course that kind of disappeared...
Well, in every other match against N in BW1, he used Pokémon that were found in the area, meaning he likely captured them for that battle, then released them afterward.
Yup, this was confirmed in BW2. The only ones whom he still have by his side in that game are Zoroark and his legendary (which he later releases so that you can capture it). One thing stuck out to me though, N's Pokemon, which can be found in the wild (if you used the Memory Link) all start with very high happiness (I think max happiness but I don't remember it. This implied that despite the short time together, N really treated them so kindly that they loved him (and some like Zoroark and the legendary Dragon didn't leave him when he released the others).
But Shauntal and Grimsley sound like they don't know N's intentions, Shauntal just sensing there's some kind of hidden sadness while Grimsley was surprised there's a second challenger so soon (though considering Cheren came with Alder in the "final" cutscene of the main story it could be that Cheren was also battling his way through the Pokemon League and as it happened your paths just never crossed). I suppose they could have been pretending nothing was wrong for the sake of not worrying kids though if that was the case you'd think they would also know we're the kid involved in all this (or were they not paying attention and/or Alder/Marhshal not tell them?). It honestly seems like they just assumed that since N is challenging them that he must have gotten cleared by the Badge checker (and/or assumed if the trainer really wasn't strong enough they'd just beat them anyway; if anything the Badges are sort of used as a way to prove the trainer has trained enough to be able to challenge the Elite Four. N sort of cheated by using a high leveled Legendary Dragon to force his way through).
Hey, if the game gives you a Legendary before the League than its fair game. Heck in ORAS they're practically begging you to use Lati@s.
Well the Zorua we see in the picture is a different Pokemon than the Zoroark that N uses to battle since we get the Zorua and Zoroark remains as N's bodyguard. If I had to guess the Pokemon that N use in the final battle are strong abandoned Pokemon (how else would he have gotten the Fossil Pokemon unless they were abandoned, I'd imagine N would be against reviving extinct Pokemon) or were strong wild Pokemon negatively affected by people in someway. Oddly the Pokemon in N's final team are the only N Pokemon you don't get in BW2 (which makes sense for Zoroark, but what about the other's?).
Not just Hydreigon. Ghetsis entire team seems to be built around to taking down anything that N could use against him as Mew King said:
Zekrom/Reshiram: Seismitoad shouldn't have that difficult time tanking their elemental STAB and hitting them with a Super Effective STAB of its own. Hydreigon has Dragon Pulse as well (and oddly N's dragon doesn't have a Dragon-type move). Also only Reshiram has a move that at least one of Ghetsis Pokemon isn't immune to and its Fusion Flare which is resisted by Seismitoad and Hydreigon.
Carracosta: Eelektross got that covered, and if not him then either Bouffalant (Wild Charge and Earthquake), Seismitoad (Earthquake), or Hydriegon (Focus Blast).
Vanilluxe: If Bisharp doesn't take it out with a Stone Edge many of Ghetsis other Pokemon have a Fire-type attack waiting like Eelektross and, of course, Hydreigon.
Archeops: Once again a good Electric-type attack (or Bisharp's Stone Edge) would at least bring it down below half.
Zoroark: Bisharp is packing X-Scissor, and Hydreigon has Focu Blast.
Klinklang: I've pointed out the Fire- and Fighting-type moves that Ghetsis' team has.
Only member of Ghetsis team who doesn't directly have a role against N is Cofagrigus though from the looks of its moveset its more meant to stall and slowly weaken so maybe one of Ghetsis other Pokemon could be sent in to clean up. In addition N's team doesn't really have a lot of ways of defending or countering against Ghetsis team. So whether Ghetsis helped him pick out the Pokemon that he did or just knew the Pokemon that N would have on him, Ghetsis did look like he planned his team around beating N's.
And being Seismitoad's Ability is Swift Swim and it's carrying Rain Dance, if Speed becomes an issue looks like Ghetsis prepared for that.
Does anyone else think that Genesect's Drives might be Team Plasma's attempt at imitating Arceus's Plates? OK, don't crucify me, hear me out first.
1) Both Techno Blast and Judgement are Normal-type Special-based moves with 5 PP.
2) Both the Drives and the Plates change the type of the signature move of the Legendary.
3) Techno Blast has 120 Base Power, which is similar to Judgement's 120 Base Power (if you factor in the 20% boost the Plate gives) - yes, TB originally has 85 BP but I think at that time, Game Freak wanted to make a point that it wasn't as good as God. Then, they remembered that Arceus gets STAB from Judgement so Arceus is still better.
4) The Drives change the colour of Genesect's Cannon, similar to how the Plates change the colour of Arceus's wheel-like thing.
1) Both Techno Blast and Judgement are Normal-type Special-based moves with 5 PP.
2) Both the Drives and the Plates change the type of the signature move of the Legendary.
3) Techno Blast has 120 Base Power, which is similar to Judgement's 120 Base Power (if you factor in the 20% boost the Plate gives) - yes, TB originally has 85 BP but I think at that time, Game Freak wanted to make a point that it wasn't as good as God. Then, they remembered that Arceus gets STAB from Judgement so Arceus is still better.
4) The Drives change the colour of Genesect's Cannon, similar to how the Plates change the colour of Arceus's wheel-like thing.
OK, I'll give that it has more PP. As for the BP, the Plate gives a 20% increase so it has 120 BP (not counting STAB)
Interesting theory, but I think it was just to make Genesect adaptable. After all, I get the feeling that Genesect was supposed to be some sort of trump card, that was until N decided to shut the program down due to his moral issues with the program.
If you're right though, Team Plasma's scientists were probably originally supposed to make a Drive for all 17 types, but were only able to complete the 3 before N had all funding cut.
Maybe not exactly copy Arceus Multiple and Plates, but possibly a similar idea. I wouldn't be surprised if Drives for all the types were planned but only made the four "common" ones before N cancelled the project. If anything to just give Genesect coverage (they were probably planning on making more so they'd probably have had specific ones with a certain type if the project was allowed to complete).
Don't forget Water.
Water's already included, as it's often substituted for (or treated the same as) Ice.
Genesect proves the "against reviving extinct Pokemon" deal, and I suspect if people saw saw fossil Pokemon walking, swimming, or flying around, they would be captured pretty quickly. Kliknklang would just be a duplicate Pokemon (of N's) without an interesting hidden ability that makes it completely different. Vanilluxe is the only one that defies explanation, although if it was included, where would it go? The others just stayed in the same area. Although, I think that last part kind of explains all of it to a point.
Sorry, thanks for the correction.
To be fair, Genesect is more about being against altering it to the point where it was a new Pokemon and not reviving to be identical to the old days.
I finally saw Diancie and the Cocoon of Destruction, and I have a new theory on what we discussed earlier on about Pokemon killing humans.
SPOILERS :D
SPOILERS :D
We know from the first movie, Ash was turned to stone when an attack from both Mew and Mewtwo hit him. He was later revived, but only from all the Pokemon crying. In Diancie and the Cocoon of Destruction, something very similar happens when Yveltal was using Oblivion Wing. As shown in it, Pokemon, people, and plant life were turned to stone as well. I don't think it was just like a coma though, because when Pikachu turns to stone, everyone is crying, as if he has died. I think that what happens if a Pokemon kills someone is something similar. When legendaries (or any strong Pokemon probably.) attack a human or Pokemon, sometimes the attack goes to far unintentionally or intentionally. When this happens, what normally causes a loss of HP or a wound causes the one who was hit to turn into stone. The one hit is then essentially dead, or in a coma possibly because when they are turned back to normal, they seem perfectly fine. The only way they can be revived though is from many living things being in anguish, the Pokemon in the first movie crying over Ash, or someone or something giving their life force to aid everyone else, like Xerneas turning into the tree to restore the forest, Pokemon, and people in movie 17. So I think it is definitely possible, but when it happens is very rarely, usually by the hand of a legendary, and when it does happen the person or Pokemon is revived.
So every time a fossil needs reviving the guy takes it out back to cry over it? No wonder he asks us to come back later, he needs time to get twelve people together to watch the Littlefoot's mom die (or Futurama's Jurassic Bark ending).
I kid, I kid, but there is one wrench to your theory in the anime canon and it's the death of Latios in the fifth movie and Lucario in the eighth, both being deaths that had no retcon, revival, or redo's. Although both were technically sacrifices instead of deaths, so final death is only possible when it's by your own hand?
The only other on screen deaths that weren't later taken back happened to not-real pokemon (Entei in the third movie, Mirage Mew in the special, Corrupt Groudon in the sixth movie), so your theory might have some weight in the anime. Come to think of it, I can't think of any off-screen fighting-related deaths either. Sir Aaron also sacrificed himself, Papa-Latios did the same, and most of the ghost-story related episodes involve old age or broken hearts.
But my knowledge of the anime is pretty weak. Although as my math teach said, you need three points to make a pattern, and two isolated instances of petrification seem a little more like coincidental writing to me.