Data ASB Feedback & Game Issues Thread - Mk III

[Rainman Legends]

just make Damp toggable, if default the opponent cannot faint from explosion. If you decide to toggle it, the opponent CAN faint from explosion. It gives the choice to the player and gives it decent interaction.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Why? What purpose does that serve? What precedent does it follow? What balance problem does it address?

Cute idea that does nothing to address the issues with the proposal.

 

[Dogfish44]

Can we either CT: None Memento, or give it a high EN cost? Right now it costs 0 EN. 0.

 

[Its_A_Random]

Can we either CT: None Memento, or give it a high EN cost? Right now it costs 0 EN. 0.

Just do the former if we really have to. Who really cares if it does not cost energy given it is the most useless suicide move in the game (and hence why no one uses it).

If we really have to give an EC to it, 1 or 2 will suffice. No one will still use it because it is outclassed by attacking anyway.

 

[waterwarrior]

In regards to Damp: No. If we're really go the route of "every Pokemon that has a useless ability gets a buff," where does it end?

Azumarill already resists Ice and Fire, Thick Fat needs buff.
Gluttony needs buff- outside of Ice Gym and Enigma Berry, nobody uses berries, and Enigma Berry doesn't even work with Gluttony
Almost all battles are in ASB Arena and Gogoat doesn't even learn Grassy Terrain, needs buff

Damp change screams buff culture when, as was basically IAR's argument, there's no damn reason to buff it. Even the logic that was used to bring this about was flawed. When this was discussed over IRC, there was a mention of Overcoat, where, because it's useless with Magic Guard, it was buffed. HOWEVER, Cloyster, Forretress, Sandy Wormadam, Trash Wormadam, and Escavalier all benefit from it as well. Unless this Damp buff somehow helps Swampert, tell me how this change will benefit Swampert, Kingdra, etc. or it really is as viable a change as the silly examples I gave.

In regards to Memento: There are really more options than it appears here- to change it to CT: None and leave the EN cost alone, to change it to have a very small EN cost with either CT: None or CT: Passive, or to give it a noticable EN cost and CT: Passive.

As it currently stands, you can sacrifice your mon to bring the NATURAL stage of the opponent to -4/-4 as long as you have 4 EN left. If you're considering sacrificing a mon, there's no way you have the ability to get more than one more last-ditch attack off, and if you just killed a mon and are about to be revenge killed by a fresh mon, can you really say that, if you're too low on EN to fire off a powerful combo or your most powerful options are subbed for, doing damage is going to be completely outclassed by crippling the hell out of a mon, especially if it doesn't carry a switch move?

Personally, I'd prefer making it have a low-to-middling EN cost (somewhere around 1-5, aka lower than other -2 stat drops like Screech) and have it as CT: None or CT: Passive, but really there are arguments for any of the four solutions.

 

[Gerard]

Even if the energy cost is 20 if it falls into the last attack your pokemon does (be it because of the sacrifice or because of energy KO), so I don't see the reason other than to avoid using it in combos (in which case 99% of the time another combo or just attacking twice would be preferable).

Honestly Memento is only decent when you're either in a Switch = KO AND you don't have a switching move, on a Switch = OK and you're trapped (be it because of an Ability or a Move) or in a last pokemon standing. And that's only if the opponent can use the reduced damage to heal itself back up, or to set up hazards or the like (and which invalidates the last pokemon standing case).

I would use CT: None if you're worried about it being used in combinations (though I have to admit the thought of Memento + Memento is diabolical and hilarious).

-.-.-.-.-.-.-

While Damp might not need a buff I think one ability does. Flower Veil.

The ability is bad, at least in it's current form. It's only user, Florges, has no use for it, and even worst is that both of it's abilities are exclusively doubles abilities. Not even good doubles abilities at that, they require Florges to be used in extremely specific scenarios to even work, not even mention being effective at that.

I think we should make Flower Veil work for the user regardless of its type (partners would still have to be Grass Type for it to work on them). As we already do with moves such as Rototiller.

* If that's the intended effect of Flower Veil then ignore this message, though a mention of protecting the user regardless of type would be nice. Also adding that the ability also protects from status.

 

[Its_A_Random]

While Damp might not need a buff I think one ability does. Flower Veil.

The ability is bad, at least in it's current form. It's only user, Florges, has no use for it, and even worst is that both of it's abilities are exclusively doubles abilities. Not even good doubles abilities at that, they require Florges to be used in extremely specific scenarios to even work, not even mention being effective at that.

I think we should make Flower Veil work for the user regardless of its type (partners would still have to be Grass Type for it to work on them). As we already do with moves such as Rototiller.

* If that's the intended effect of Flower Veil then ignore this message, though a mention of protecting the user regardless of type would be nice. Also adding that the ability also protects from status.

"This Pokemon takes great care of all Grass-types, emanating a mystical barrier preventing its own and their stats from being lowered by opponents in battle."

Already there without having to edit anything! ^_^

 

[Dogfish44]

RE Memento: I think everyone's underestimating the power of being able to put someone's natural stages at -2/-2 or -4/-4, but w/e. I'm just going to propose 15 EN - that way 34 EN is needed to get the combo off. Our self-KO moves tend to have higher ENs than they really should tbh (Lunar Dance is 15 and the lowest EN, for reference).

Unless someone objects or wants to move to discussion / voting, I'd like to just word of god this in in ~24 hours.

 

[Gerard]

"This Pokemon takes great care of all Grass-types, emanating a mystical barrier preventing its own and their stats from being lowered by opponents in battle."

Already there without having to edit anything! ^_^

Can we still add that it prevent status conditions?

 

[ZhengTann]

Don't mind me. By the way, TSRD, stat-dropping attacks drop stats whether you miss or hit, AFAIK.

Damp Jellicent: I have an IRC log here, but Council will probably sit on it, at least until I can contact everyone else and get some sort of a consensus.

IRC log

[10:03:52] Zt EM, you still wanna undamp jelly?
[10:04:26] elevator_music it doesnt really matter to me, i just brought it up because it seemed inconsistent
[10:04:41] elevator_music with how we treated stuff like limber stunfisk etc
[10:04:52] Zt !asbility limber
[10:04:53] ASBot Limber | Type: Passive | Mold Breaker-affected: Yes
[10:04:54] ASBot This Pokemon's body is well trained and immune to paralysis. If the Pokemon with this Ability is Electric-type, this Pokemon's Speed cannot be lowered by any method, including self-inflicted reductions.
[10:05:10] Zt Maybe just add some weird interaction.
[10:05:22] Zt Like "If the Pokemon with this Ability is Electric-type, this Pokemon's Sp Def cannot be lowered by any method, including self-inflicted reductions."
[10:05:38] Zt Or Def, or any one arbitrary stat
[10:05:44] Zt !search damp
[10:05:46] TIBot https://pokemonshowdown.com/dex/abilities/damp
[10:05:54] elevator_music i mean something along those lines is kinda what i had in mind
[10:06:05] elevator_music tho i didnt have a concrete suggestion or anything
[10:06:44] elevator_music i think people are being silly about it, but i also really dont care because its for a pokemon i have no intention of ever using or facing hahaha
[10:06:48] Zt Okay, I'll just log this onto the thread and see how IAR responds. Although Tex is pretty right that we're doing this just because OCD or something.

Memento EN cost: Dogfish is ascending into godhood, and personally I am ambivalent. From the looks of it, so is everybody else.

Flower Veil: Left here for a bit until it gains traction. I'd like to know why the status immunity part was not implemented in the first place though.

 

[Dogfish44]

Flower Veil was probably incompletely implemented, since Veekun doesn't mention status, whilst Bulbapedia does. If someone can go confirm this for me I'll implement to match in-game (Because that's not a council call, that's a bloody common sense call) Confirmed and implemented. We could do with a discussion on clarifying if Florges should receive the boost whilst not a Grass Type, but that can be done in a thread if needed.

Memento has been implemented.

Damp doesn't need a boost - M-Glalie has it's Glaciate Explosions, and in Doubles it's very useful. Limber is a different situation since Electric ALWAYS handles Paralysis.

 

[Its_A_Random]

I think we should should have discussed the status immunity before directly implementing it. You know, with a Pokémon who is going to get high usage in the upcoming DYAE tournament getting a fairly noticeable buff, would it not have made more sense to discuss whether it would be the best to implement it given the ramifications? I mean it would have passed the council anyway but the timing and the reasoning to buff (in-game only) strikes me in a very odd way.

Also there is the fact that EM got a difficulty spike but I do not care about that TLR now for obvious reasons. :)

 

[Dogfish44]

I probably should've waited, but we've habitually fixed issues like this before.

That said, this is suddenly an important issue. I would like to know the original justification for making it influence the user - or if it was just an ambiguity that we've currently got an odd wording for (Where it should clarify the user also has to be grass-typed).

 

[Frosty]

Total immunity to status is a big no-no. I suppose it is just a fix to adjust to ingame effects. But making that specific change will cause balance related issues (I mean huge ones). So if we are to adapt to ingame, I'd much rather eliminate the effects on self alltogether and discuss the matter.

 

[Elevator Music]

Can we clarify Meditate's description a bit? Specifically what attacks are "ki-based" (and maybe what attacks are "mental" but I have a feeling that's a significantly longer list).

 

[Dogfish44]

Ki-Based probably refers to Force Palm? Old DAT;

Force Palm: The Pokémon charges ki energy on its palm that it uses to strike the opponent. Upon impact, the energy has a chance to paralyze the opponent’s muscles.

Whilst Mental probably refers to the Psychic-Style attacks (Any Psychic attack which doesn't manifest as a beam or whatnot, so think Confusion and Psychic).

... needs an update. Will comment on that after sleep.

 

[Maxim]

...I'll probably get slapped again, but I want to bring something up.

Currently Illusion works as follows:

Whenever you send this Pokemon out, it can feign the appearance of another member on your squad. If this Pokemon is damaged by a direct attack, the Illusion will cease at the end of the round. Direct damage is any attack that does damage to the Pokemon's HP. Attacks that are evaded, blocked via Protect, or damage a Substitute are not considered direct damage. It will retain the typing and moveset of the Pokemon with Illusion. ...

What I've bolded is what I have an issue with. Why do we have it at the end of the round? Currently this ruling makes substitutions against Illusion Pokemon rather difficult, since most of the more obvious solutions are illegal under our current sub system (i.e. If X takes super effective damage from Y, then repeat Y.)

I propose that we make this work like in game, where the first direct hit reveals the illusion immediately.

 

[Gale Wing Srock]

...I'll probably get slapped again, but I want to bring something up.

Currently Illusion works as follows:


What I've bolded is what I have an issue with. Why do we have it at the end of the round? Currently this ruling makes substitutions against Illusion Pokemon rather difficult, since most of the more obvious solutions are illegal under our current sub system (i.e. If X takes super effective damage from Y, then repeat Y.)

I propose that we make this work like in game, where the first direct hit reveals the illusion immediately.

I agree with you guys that Illusion needs some way to work with our subs. But Illusion isn't distributed widely, and is a one round pony like Multiscale. I do feel however that Illusion on Aurumoth is far too powerful.

What I think we can do, is nerf Illusion on Aurumoth to certain types of pokemon. Like a Bug cannot disguise into a steel type for instance?

Or we can have a sub clause to ease prediction on Illusion? but I feel that this method is far too specific and will make us go towards Sub Clauses for things that trouble us.

We definitely need to spend some time analyzing Aurumoth's potential for abusing Illusion though.

 

[Mowtom]

What I think we can do, is nerf Illusion on Aurumoth to certain types of pokemon. Like a Bug cannot disguise into a steel type for instance?

That is...needlessly complex. Not to mention arbitrary.

I personally think that no real change is needed, as you can simply sub for IF target has less/greater than x HP THEN y. If that sub is illegal fsr, then I agree subbing against Illusion must be improved

 

[Gale Wing Srock]

That is...needlessly complex. Not to mention arbitrary.

I personally think that no real change is needed, as you can simply sub for IF target has less/greater than x HP THEN y. If that sub is illegal fsr, then I agree subbing against Illusion must be improved

The problem there Mowtom, is that the pokemon's knowledge of the disguised pokemon would be the same as the pokemon that it appears to be.

So If Aurumoth is disguising as Shuckle, and you have a sub for less than 100 HP at the start of action 1. It wouldn't trigger.

But we can do that after action 1's damage though. Like, "IF at the start of action 2, Shuckle's HP is greater than 80, THEN use Shadow Ball instead."

And yeah, this is not as easy when the illusion is too close to be called that way.

 

[Maxim]

That and the fact that the opponent can screw this up if you're ordering first in a variety of ways. Reflect, for instance.

 

[Its_A_Random]

Or you can sub for a specific move that the illusion mon has that would screw you over otherwise... but that is beside the point.

The issue is how is it any different to the current effect from a gameplay standpoint? I mean is it not easier to just make a definite ruling saying that the Illusion Pokémon has its actual HP and not the the pretend's HP (Drawing from in-game)? Blind Switches can be resolved by simply not showing HP until the round proper.

The issue most likely lies in vague details as opposed to some balance issue.

So If Aurumoth is disguising as Shuckle, and you have a sub for less than 100 HP at the start of action 1. It wouldn't trigger.

But we can do that after action 1's damage though. Like, "IF at the start of action 2, Shuckle's HP is greater than 80, THEN use Shadow Ball instead."

Or sub for if greater than 100 HP A1 especially if we do the above in Aurumoth's case..................

 

[TSRD]

So I wanted to get people's thoughts on +Priority Moves and Stall vs Quick Guard.

Does Quick Guard work here? I'm inclined to think Yes.
Stall says nothing about altering the priority of the move itself it simply ignores normal priority and makes the move go last regardless.
As the move is still a +Priority move (just going last) it would still count as one for purposes of Quick Guard. Thoughts?

 

[Gerard]

I don't think so, an here's why.

Brave Bird is NOT an increased priority move, yet I CAN be, if the pokemon has Gale Wings then Brave Bird would have priority and thus Quick Guard should stop it completely, however following your logic, brave Bird is not, on principle, an increased priority move, even though it strikes at +1, becaus it's they ability that transforms it into one.

Moves don't exist in a vacuum, so considering a Shadow Sneak that has negative priority as an increased priority move would be the same as considering Gale Wings Brave Bird a non-increase priority move just cause under regular circumstances it is.

 

[TSRD]

Except Gale Wings turns it into a +priority move, as it literally says it adds priority. Stall does not turn a move into a negative priority move or say that it alters priority in any way, it simply makes it act last regardless of priority. In fact it acts outside of normal priority since it will always be last, even after a move with maxed negative priority performed by a slower mon.