np: ORAS UU Stage 3.1 - Sex on Fire [Victini Remains BL]

[Deej Dy]

Here is just a short example of what I did routinely to scout Victini and then inflict pain on the opponent.

arbokiscool22 withdrew Metapod!
arbokiscool22 sent out Swampert!
The opposing Victini used V-Create!
Its not very effective... Swampert lost 25.2% of its health!
The opposing Victini's Defense fell!
The opposing Victini's Special Defense fell!
The opposing Victini's Speed fell!
The opposing Victini lost some of its HP!
Swampert restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
arbokiscool22 withdrew Swampert!
arbokiscool22 sent in Pidgeot!
The opposing Victini used Energy Ball!
Its not very effective... Pidgeot lost 23% of its health!
The opposing Victini lost some of its HP!

Now I just Hurricane and Crit-Confuse something (with the real MVP that should be banned)/Defog/U-turn/whatever and I know what set it is for the rest of the match.

And if it was band? Swampert tanks the V create...
252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 141-167 (35.1 - 41.6%) -- 79.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Of course this is one example so you don't necessarily need Swampert.

 

[GULLY]

and that's the type of fucking retarded logic I'm talking about lol pls Sam Hikari do something.

Ur p much saying u know tini isnt healthy but it should be let back in bc its not that broken. To me ur logic is way more flawed. Why would we wanna conciously make a less healthy meta?

 

[kokoloko]

please tell me when I said tini isn't heathy

please

in fact I very explicitly said what the real
problem with the metagame is in an earlier post

 

[Schpoonman]

Looking back you didn't, but you dismissed his argument as "fucking retarded" without bothering to clarify how Victini wasn't unhealthy.

 

[kokoloko]

actually I've stated why victini is fine in the metagame multiple times but keep trying

 

[LeoLancaster]

Y'know, by this point I think I've been convinced that Victini would be okay in UU, or at least it wouldn't be the end of the world. (Alhtough in #xyuu Omfuga is talking about how tini will be like Zygarde and get rebanned later as I write, which is something I can see hapening, but w/e.) My concern though, is that the logic kokoloko keeps criticizing is somethng those of us who don't know the direction the tier will be headed in the future have to make. It is quite possible that in terms of unhealthiness Victini is the least of the present evils, but the vast majority of the voters don't know whether the greater problem Pokemon will be tested or not. I would be much more comfortable with letting Victini back into the tier if I knew stuff like Pidgeotite had a good chance of leaving. But I don't, and so I have to vote to keep tini banned because as UU stands now Victini does nothing for the tier besides (arguably minimally) increasing the current problem trends caused by other Pokemon.

BTW If Victini stays BL and then gets retested again later I would really like to see suspect tours, the ladder is just awful at showcasing Victini.

 

[Sam]

Please don't!

I do think koko brought up a valid point about how some people viewed the suspect. Wanting to 'preserve a meta' isn't a very good reason to base your vote on. Base your vote on the meta with the suspect.

 

[LeoLancaster]

Please don't!

I do think koko brought up a valid point about how some people viewed the suspect. Wanting to 'preserve a meta' isn't a very good reason to base your vote on. Base your vote on the meta with the suspect.

But the problem is that the Victini meta is slightly to moderately worse than the one without, at least currently. But with other problems taken care of Victini might very well be fine. Gahh I'm really seriously considering changing my vote (assuming that's still allowed).

 

[Ernesto]

Yea maybe we should've seen if stuff like Pidgeot, Mamo or Gatr deserved to be suspected/banned before we tried to bring Tini back down, but it's too late for that, right? So w/e, if you feel Tini is broken vote to keep it banned, and if you don't, vote to unban it. No need to make a big issue out of it, this stuff is always subjective at the end of the day.

Just please, suspect Pidgeot afterwards, lol.

 

[BenzMafia]

Here is just a short example of what I did routinely to scout Victini and then inflict pain on the opponent.

arbokiscool22 withdrew Metapod!
arbokiscool22 sent out Swampert!
The opposing Victini used V-Create!
Its not very effective... Swampert lost 25.2% of its health!
The opposing Victini's Defense fell!
The opposing Victini's Special Defense fell!
The opposing Victini's Speed fell!
The opposing Victini lost some of its HP!
Swampert restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
arbokiscool22 withdrew Swampert!
arbokiscool22 sent in Pidgeot!
The opposing Victini used Energy Ball!
Its not very effective... Pidgeot lost 23% of its health!
The opposing Victini lost some of its HP!

Now I just Hurricane and Crit-Confuse something (with the real MVP that should be banned)/Defog/U-turn/whatever and I know what set it is for the rest of the match.

And if it was band? Swampert tanks the V create...
252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 141-167 (35.1 - 41.6%) -- 79.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Of course this is one example so you don't necessarily need Swampert.

Are you telling me that whenever Victini comes in vs my Forry i should pivot to my Swampert first and double switch into a grass resist later because if Victini has Energy Ball it is gonna go for it, if it doesn't have it will switch out anyway? This may sound logical at first glance, i see where you're coming from but in practise it doesn't work out. What if Victini users decide to not reveal their coverage, save it for later and go for it after convincing opponent that they don't have it? What happens if Victini clicks grass move right away? Even if Forry stays in for whatever reason it cannot do anything in return. Worst case scenario you reveal a coverage move. So what? Not like you waste your berry and can't use natural gift anymore. Heck you can even use this to your advantage and go for V-Create/Bolt Strike next time you get a switch vs pert. Now you'll say prediction argument is bad, it can go both ways. That's where risk vs reward comes in to play. If you mispredict vs Mixtini you lose a pokemon, if Victini mispredicts you it'll only lose 10% while still doing damage to you because its moves have so damn high base power you still take a chunk from even resisted hits. You are acting like Victini users are like NPC characters from Nintendo games and only attack what's inside. If that was the case sure you could just switch lol 11 times and LO stall it out.
Moral of the story is please do not use "You can scout for its moves" as an argument because it is flawed as fuck. We all saw what happened to Greninja.

 

[Skankovich]

Here is just a short example of what I did routinely to scout Victini and then inflict pain on the opponent.

arbokiscool22 withdrew Metapod!
arbokiscool22 sent out Swampert!
The opposing Victini used V-Create!
Its not very effective... Swampert lost 25.2% of its health!
The opposing Victini's Defense fell!
The opposing Victini's Special Defense fell!
The opposing Victini's Speed fell!
The opposing Victini lost some of its HP!
Swampert restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
arbokiscool22 withdrew Swampert!
arbokiscool22 sent in Pidgeot!
The opposing Victini used Energy Ball!
Its not very effective... Pidgeot lost 23% of its health!
The opposing Victini lost some of its HP!

Now I just Hurricane and Crit-Confuse something (with the real MVP that should be banned)/Defog/U-turn/whatever and I know what set it is for the rest of the match.

And if it was band? Swampert tanks the V create...
252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 141-167 (35.1 - 41.6%) -- 79.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Of course this is one example so you don't necessarily need Swampert.

Or the tini user recognises that you've seen the life orb, recognises you're probably weary of eball and clicks vcreate again on the inevitable scout. Telling people to just scout is easier said than done when the things that can risk an invested life orb v-create are limited already.

And its not even like Mixtini has to run special attack investment and sacrifice v-create power- eball hits 4x super effectively where important and uninvested life orb psychic 2hkos both arcanine and fatmence after rocks anyway.
And even if you do scout out this set, what do you do? There's a single mon in the tier that isn't 2hko'd after rocks by this moveset and its called snorlax (even then, like if scarf hydreigon u-turns out on a snorlax switchin or something its a 2hko), and if you don't have it what do you do? You switch around and hope they don't click the right move at the right time.

Tini is nowhere near as broken as I thought it would be and I was honestly unsure what to vote, but at the end of the day I agree with Lapras in that all it does is shift the meta further towards offense than it already is and so is ultimately unhealthy. I can only see it getting more broken over time too, but that isn't really relevant I guess.

EDIT: hahhah that was some synchronised posting there

 

[sniperr]

Yea maybe we should've seen if stuff like Pidgeot, Mamo or Gatr deserved to be suspected/banned before we tried to bring Tini back down, but it's too late for that, right? So w/e, if you feel Tini is broken vote to keep it banned, and if you don't, vote to unban it. No need to make a big issue out of it, this stuff is always subjective at the end of the day.

Just please, suspect Pidgeot afterwards, lol.

such beautiful words. I feel as though Tini suspect was done too soon with all these other threats lurking that may need potential tests as well. As a result it honestly effects a lot of peoples choices and thoughts, including mine. #BANPIDGEOT

 

[Doctor Swagmoar]

Simply put, if it were truly an overpowered mon it would get far more usage.

In the last dozen battles I had, it was on zero of the opposing teams.

 

[rs]

Simply put, if it were truly an overpowered mon it would get far more usage.

In the last dozen battles I had, it was on zero of the opposing teams.

People were too busy running like 3 checks for it than actually using it

Edit: Changed wording to make YABO's meme useless

 

[Deej Dy]

Skankovich
BenzMafia

It seems we have officially moved away from discussion of why "Victini is broken" to "hypothetical scenarios of correctly predicting the opponent".
In all suspect tests inevitably the line "_____ is broken if you use it right" and a bunch of other hypothetical scenarios eventually show up. No one ever wins these arguements because they are poorly construed and completely subjective to player's skill and random chance.

I posted what I saw on the ladder multiple times as an example of how easy it is to find out "the highly variable Victini"'s sets,
not something you should emulate every match.
Did they predict me sometimes? Sure, but I was able to find out the set and counter it accordingly the vast majority of the time. I mainly posted to show that Victini's variability in sets really isn't as overpowering as some make it out to be.

 

[YABO]

People were too busy running like 3 checks for it to actually use it

Victini checks Victini, sick logic

 

[Doctor Swagmoar]

I think you're blindsided by the elegance of that logic, xShiba.

It doesn't get any simpler than this really. If 'tini was OP it would actually get a fair amount of usage by people with the desire to win (pretty sure everyone wants to win, right?) Instead, it's usage on the suspect ladder was disparaging and disappointing.

EDIT: Keeping in mind this is not the sole reason as to why I feel it should be unbanned, it's just a bullet point against it's exclusion from UU. If only 1 in 12 people use it on average, then the presumption that Victini overcentralizes will wear out and become obsolete. How could something be allowed to overcentralize in the long run based not on actual usage, but on anticipation alone?

 

[sniperr]

I think you're blindsided by the elegance of that logic, xShiba.

It doesn't get any simpler than this really. If 'tini was OP it would actually get a fair amount of usage by people with the desire to win (pretty sure everyone wants to win, right?) Instead, it's usage on the suspect ladder was disparaging and disappointing.

can't say I agree with that. if that were truely the case, the ladder would be spammed with pidgeot, gator ect.. which are pretty huge threats. the desire to win isn't always about using op pokemon, but prepping your self on how to deal with these threats. some are just easier to check than others.

 

[Doctor Swagmoar]

The ladder is spammed with Pidgeot and Gator and they do get more usage than Victini, and that's just a fact.

So by your logic, since Pidgeot and Gator and many other offensive Pokemon see more usage than Victini on the average team, Victini is somehow ban worthy.

Again, totally failing to see where the bandwagon seems to be going with all this. It's inclusion has changed the meta, but not nearly in an unhealthy enough way to warrant further exclusion.

/alsomyopinion

 

[North]

The ladder is spammed with Pidgeot and Gator and they do get more usage than Victini, and that's just a fact.

So by your logic, since Pidgeot and Gator and many other offensive Pokemon see more usage than Victini on the average team, Victini is somehow ban worthy.

Again, totally failing to see where the bandwagon seems to be going with all this. It's inclusion has changed the meta, but not nearly in an unhealthy enough way to warrant further exclusion.

/alsomyopinion

You have failed to notice that most people that are for ban are not saying that Victini is a broken pokemon. The reason people are voting ban is mostly for the negative effects Victini would have on the metagame. Usage does not indicate the viability. Pokemon like Reuniclus has way less usage than Rotom-Heat, but I would say most intelligent battlers would tell you Reuniclus is better than Rotom-H. Please do not make outright unedducated posts about how banning works until you fully understand why or why not a pokemon should be banned.

 

[Darvin]

The ladder is spammed with Pidgeot and Gator and they do get more usage than Victini, and that's just a fact.

The usage stats actually tell a very different story:

0 weighting):
| 12 | Feraligatr | 10.52026% | 19587 | 9.598% | 15274 | 9.244% |
| 22 | Victini | 8.13665% | 16605 | 8.137% | 13716 | 8.301% |
| 29 | Pidgeot | 7.75330% | 15822 | 7.753% | 12284 | 7.434% |

1500 weighting
| 11 | Victini | 10.82289% | 16605 | 8.137% | 13716 | 8.301% |
| 12 | Feraligatr | 10.52026% | 19587 | 9.598% | 15274 | 9.244% |
| 26 | Pidgeot | 8.39940% | 15822 | 7.753% | 12284 | 7.434% |

1630 weighting
| 3 | Victini | 17.34922% | 16605 | 8.137% | 13716 | 8.301% |
| 11 | Feraligatr | 12.30697% | 19587 | 9.598% | 15274 | 9.244% |
| 16 | Pidgeot | 10.36531% | 15822 | 7.753% | 12284 | 7.434% |

1760 weighting
| 2 | Victini | 22.64272% | 16605 | 8.137% | 13716 | 8.301% |
| 10 | Feraligatr | 14.23365% | 19587 | 9.598% | 15274 | 9.244% |
| 15 | Pidgeot | 12.15947% | 15822 | 7.753% | 12284 | 7.434% |

While usage doesn't equal viability, by any measure these pokemon have a significant presence in UU. Perhaps Victini's presence wasn't as much as we'd hoped given it was a suspect test for Victini, but it definitely got used.

 

[Godsend]

Magikarp is bad - sees no usage.
Maero is good - sees high usage.

Granted it's not end all be all but but there is a definite correlation.

 

[sniperr]

The ladder is spammed with Pidgeot and Gator and they do get more usage than Victini, and that's just a fact.

So by your logic, since Pidgeot and Gator and many other offensive Pokemon see more usage than Victini on the average team, Victini is somehow ban worthy.

Again, totally failing to see where the bandwagon seems to be going with all this. It's inclusion has changed the meta, but not nearly in an unhealthy enough way to warrant further exclusion.

/alsomyopinion

during my whole uu suspect test. I've seen more victinis than gator and pidgeot. I've literally only seen Pidge once and gator once. the "banwagon" you are failing to see is that victini already hurts playstyles like balance, and maybe stall even further. We already have constricted team building and victini isn't adding anything special to balance the metagame. like its been said before, it has too much unpredictability "if" you want to say scouting as a argument, a compentent player might just be cheecky enough to predict that scout. My point is that if we decided to keep victini, it won't make anything better. Not everyone plays offense nor wants to be forced to scout to not get bopped, so why add a pokemon that makes you lean even more to one specific playstyle. All playstyles should be as viable as possible for an enjoyable metagame.

 

[Doctor Swagmoar]

I think I've said my piece here, so I'm out. There's an impasse between those in favor of ban, thinking team building is less healthy now, while those in favor of no ban disagree. No real deep sympathy for stall players from me, so I guess we'll see. I'd rather use Entei over Vic at this point anyway, so I'm cool with whatever.

Just to quote Nysyr

NYSYR:
As someone who played most of his games during the Victini meta (and didn't use him very often), I'm of the opinion that ORAS has made everyone soft. I actually enjoyed the faster paced meta that had Victini in it because Pink core spam was less used on ladder, and even the fat mons that were used weren't absolutely stally.

 

[Kink]

Ok, I'm only going to say this once.

Haha I'm actually gonna say this a lot.

Victini is not the problem. It's not the solution, but it's not the problem, and bans are based on problems. If Victini is unbalanced, it will be presented as unbalanced once the meta becomes balanced. That may have sounded confusing, but here's what I mean:

Pidgeot and Gatr are far larger problems, and let's just assume that this is correct so I don't have to make a gigantic ass post (which I will when the time comes) as to why these two mons are unbelievably broken in the meta. If, at that time when Pidgeot and Gatr are banned respectively, Victini is found to be broken, it will be RE-EVALUATED as it's been done now.

Let's be real, in the fast past balance-crushing metagame that has arised, Victini is a godsend, not a curse, especially as being another Pokemon that can offensively take on the current more-broken mons in this tier.

Shout out to Bouffalant, we agreed on something.