Metagame np: Stage 6 - The Boys Are Back

[Realistic Waters]

Quick thoughts on Gallade:
To be quite honest I haven't found Gallade to be a major problem so far, it isn't too hard to check seen as how it's only has base 80 speed, multiple weaknesses and shabby defence so anything faster with moderate power can easily take it out such as Tauros, Sneasel, Kanga, Fletch (plenty of others). Offensive teams should not have a problem unless it using Choice scarf which still relies on prediction. In relation to Sawk, it dosent exactly outclass it either because Sawk sits in a slightly better speed tier, more useful abilities (Sturdy/Mold breaker) and pure fighting typing not to mention it runs pretty much the same attacks on choice sets.
There aren't too many defensive answers to Gallade however, things like Colbur berry Psychic types particularly Xatu and Musharna also Granbull, Pelliper and Togetic take on particular sets on well.
It may be able to run multiple sets but they can all be dealt with accordingly. Swords Dance requires a turn to boost and is easily revenge killed, Band relies on prediction and defensive answers like I mentioned can come in decently, bulk up does not have direct power and needs to boost multiple times to be a threat, scarf isn't going to help on more defensive teams and also relies on prediction and don't really have anything to say on utility and AV sets they just sound kinda meh tho.

I don't think it's enough for a quickban after seeing it in practice. (I know it hasn't been that long)
ucanuseit2

 

[Cherub Agent]

Gallade @ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 HP / 244 SDef / 16 Spe
Careful Nature
- Wish
- Will-O-Wisp / Knock Off / Taunt
- Protect
- Drain Punch

certainly not its most threatening set, but it's really fun to use on more passive teams. this thing is a nifty wish passer thanks to really high special bulk when invested and above all its resistance to stealth rock. it's one of the few defensive mons who can go toe to toe with NU's toughest special wallbreakers in aurorus, magmortar, magneton, samurott and pyroar. protect + drain punch give a lot of passive recovery when not using wish, and WoW means that physical attackers can't just switch in all willy nilly, but knock off is obviously also great. Taunt prevents it from being used as set up fodder, but you'll appreciate toxic spikes without a secondary damaging move. 16 speed evs outrun max neutral base 50s, but you can also run 80 speed to outrun max neutral specs aurorus

 

[HJAD]

I guess i might as well post my main thoughts on the new monster that is Gallade.

I, was extremely sceptical about Gallade ngl. I thought it was going to ravage this tier in a similar way to Mega Pinsir in UU, or Gatr and Serp when they got their special abilities. But, especially after testing around with it, and playing it several times on the ladder it has hit me that it might not actually be BROKEN. Its one of those mons that you come into a game expecting a lot from, however, most of the time it doesnt play as well as i'd hope when im using it, and nor does it trouble me too much when i play it. Its quite a conundrum really, because looking at it, gallade has to run such a particular moveset to beat a well-built team, which is annoying, but you can argue the same with lilligant, and what hidden power it runs etc. it also has some nice counters like gourgeist small and colbur psychics that beat it 1v1

So, my main thoughts and feelings about Gallade is that its definately NOT broken, you cant run the set of champions and have 20+ coverage moves as well as 4 or 5 settup moves and some more support moves for the rest of your team. in theory, gallade should have been quick banned a long time ago, but in reality, and ingame situations, gallade is actually quite managable since 80 base speed isnt the greatest, and the likes of banded sneasel can put its entire notable existence at risk with a well-timed pursuit. stall teams (that really didnt exist in the first place) will die because there will always be a gallade set to break the team.
however, gallade, in my opinion, does deserve a suspect test. i will leave it to the council and TLs to decide on how soon after Magnets that test will happen or if Gallade even warrants one in the first place. One thing is for sure, it wont be staying in the tier for too long since RU have noticed its presence and will probably start using it again, meaning that it would rise up through usage.

on another note, if we do have a gallade suspect and with all the hubub about SmashPass, can we just QB that bullshit already? Im pretty sure every respectable player in this community has asked for it get banned and if we have a suspect for it, it would be literally delaying the inevitable. SmashPass has ways around its counters (hp electric gore for mantine, return huntail etc etc) so nothing outright BEATS it. The only way ive found to beat it is crit through screens and attack drops, otherwise SmashPass has ways around whatever mon you have in your roster. Its quite sad really.

tl;dr gallade isnt broken in practice, qb smashpass already

 

[Fling]

You kinda contradict yourself in your post saying that gallade isn't broken because it can't always be running the right set to beat the other team and then by saying that smash pass is broken because it can always run a certain specified move to beat the opponent. Dont really care what happens to smash pass tbh but thats just a weak point for a quick ban.

Also I feel that people rarely prepare for smash pass as a playstyle, yea its a pretty uncompetitive strategy but so is shit like t wave.

 

[marilli]

stuff

I don't think your argument for Gallade being not OP is fully supported.

Standard SD Gallade without dumb coverage moves have 0 switchins already bar stuff like Granbull. We are not talking about 10 bazillion move Gallade with max stats on everything. We are talking simply about SD Gallade with 2 STAB + Knock Off. In fact, Gallade does not really even need absurd coverage moves to have no checks. You claim that Gallade's OPness on paper is only because people claim Gallade carries the 'set of lords' aka 10 move with 252+ in every stat with 3 items, which is incredibly misleading. Most mons that have no counters are too slow to be effective (such as Rampardos), or rely on prediction because of a Choice Item and sometimes gives setup because of it (such as Sawk). Gallade is neither. As a result, it destroys nearly all slow teams, without conceding setup because you're locked into the wrong move.

You say it doesn't matter because stall is already unviable, but this also doesn't hold much water. Not only does SD Gallade make stall unplayable, in makes balance quite unplayable as well. Magneton does this pretty much, but at least you can use 3-4 Pokemon and try to play around and predict. Because: what do balance teams usually rely on to tank Close Combats for instance? Things like Garbodor that are weak to Psychic-type STAB. While 80 speed isn't blazing fast, it is more than enough, and balance teams will essentially lose a mon every time Gallade comes out, so you can revenge it. "It's not op because you can just revenge or just make all of ur team faster than it" is not at all a good anti-ban argument for anything. It forces you to run offense. A common claim is that "but offensive metas are fine!" Yes, offensive metas are fine as long as there are options for bulkier, slower offensive teams that can actually afford to tank hits and thus counteract teams that prey on fast HO, such as rain, smashpass, tr, etc.. Gallade removes this option with its sky-high special bulk and above average speed, and it is clear that Gallade (along with Magneton) seriously affects the metagame in a negative way. For instance, Sneasel is being this good is also a product of no one really being able to run bulky teams, and offense has no way to outrun Sneasel bar running Gurdurr or "dumb scarf sets" which no one runs because they're apparently trash and you'll be called an idiot ladder noob every time you reveal your scarf, but I digress.

Gallade being trapped by Sneasel is not a good argument for why Gallade isn't OP enough: Sneasel can put nearly all offensive pokemon in the same conundrum of either being knocked off and being killed or pursuited out and die anyways. If anything, it's a testament to how good of a wallbreaker and wincon Sneasel is in a metagame where people cannot afford to run bulky teams anymore, not how bad Gallade is, lol. If we talk about 80 Speed not being spectacular, how we can just revenge it easily and stuff, I'd say Magneton is less OP than Gallade because it has less speed. At least Magneton centralizes the meta but it at least has usable switch-ins to its main set! Also it's not like Gallade is completely neutralized vs. opposing offense, either. Gallade bulky enough to take almost any 1 hit, and retaliate with a swift KO, and simply by putting Shadow Sneak on the SD set it performs very well vs. offense that try to revenge it.

Finally, you argue that Gallade doesn't always do as much as you expected, even though you expect a ton from it. "I thought it was going to sweep every game, but it can't sweep every game. Therefore, it's clearly not op." Yet, the fact that you expect it to have a sweeping opportunity in a large majority of your games only confirms my suspicions that Gallade might actually be op, haha. Just because it doesn't meet the expectations of being blatantly op and 6-0ing teams, doesn't mean it's not OP.

Also I'm kinda sad that people are scared of being damned by the community to use twave or smashpass even if they help you to win, lol. I thought we should playing to win, not to win without being called 'no skill noob' by others.

 

[Ares]

Let me preface this post by saying that I wouldn't mind seeing Smash Pass leave.

The thing is though; Smash Pass isn't a guaranteed win. Ever since I used it first round in the nutl against Can-Eh-Dian Smash Pass has been thrown back into the lime light and more and more people have started using it. There have also been multiple posts by people saying that we should ban / qb it because its noncompetitive (debatable) and it is a guaranteed win. The thing is though is that its not a guaranteed win. I watched multiple ppl ladder for reqs and they all had at least 16 losses with it during their run of about 70 games.

Smash Pass is pretty matchup reliant, it tends to do well against certain teams but not so much against others. It just so happens that the play style it does best against (HO) is the most popular playstyle right now. And even then HO teams can carry checks to Smash Pass with things like Taunt as well Priority or even boosting alongside Smash Pass. Pretty much what I'm trying to say is that Smash Pass isn't this infallible thing as everyone is making it out to be and as soon as the White Herb is used up it becomes pretty easy to beat.

 

[Cherub Agent]

gallade is like magmortar that can set up, doesnt miss and has a SR resistance instead of a weakness. its pretty broken

 

[Winter's Howl]

You say it doesn't matter because stall is already unviable, but this also doesn't hold much water.

You could say that's not Realistic Waters. Kek.

But on the real though, Gallade is a threat. Haven't decided whether it is broken or not as of yet. It seems that the community has been very slow to catch on to the fact that we have Gallade. Can't imagine that the general populous would show disinterest in using a new drop. It usually goes that whenever NU gets a new drop, it is everywhere. And Gallade is a pretty exciting drop, as is evident by the discussion going on here. Then again, I could just be running into the wrong people.

gallade is like magmortar that can set up, doesnt miss and has a SR resistance instead of a weakness. its pretty broken

Gallade also has awesome versatility, backed with a well rounded support move pool to compliment its coverage and boosting options.

 

[TSM ryan]

Not surprised Magneton ended up being banned at all, but that's just what influence does. Kudos to the Do Not Ban voters anyways.

 

[Teddeh]

Even though I didn't think magneton was broken, I'm looking forward to seeing team structures now. Things like grass types took a hit because there is less need to run lanturns / stunfisks on most teams and i can also see things like kabu taking a slight hit from it as well since we can afford to run less ground types / water-rock weak pokemon. This also opens up another slot for teams to have as a threat, so i think the meta is going to become more offensive which will make for a pretty fun meta, but saturated with sneasel, tauros, archeops and gallade.
Also bringing it up again now magneton has been banned; can we ban smashpass pls? My suggestion would be a quickvote ban. PU has done something similar but I think it would be extremely useful for us to do the same due to the extremely large population of players in NU that want it banned and how noncompetitive it actually is.

 

[Water Drone]

Some thoughts

Gallade: At a first glance, this thing looks ridiculous. Great overall stats, hard hitter, access to a wide array of moves, pretty versatile in what it can run, Bulk Up, Band, Scarf, Fast Sd, Bulky Sd, even some creative sets like the WishTect one Cherub Agent posted. I'm not too keen on the fact that it seems to almost single-handedly make most of my teams unviable. I need to use it myself before I can make a full opinion on it, but as of right now I'm leaning towards just quickbanning.

Smashpass: I've only battled this a few times, but each time got destroyed. Maybe thats a result of the offensive style teams I use, but this is pretty good. It's insanely hard to stop after a shell smash, pass to something like Xatu and from there its pretty much gg. Takes minimal effort to set up a few screens, send in Gorebyss/Huntail, hit ss, possibly get a sub up, threaten pokemon with their offensive moves, or pass immediately, either way just really good from what I've seen. Again, I'll probably make a team with this to form a full opinion.

 

[ZoroDark]

With Magneton being gone, the meta is probably going to revolve around Sneasel + Gallade for a while now. The core is so incredibly potent with Sneasel trapping Psychic and Ghost types or softening up walls with its powerful Knock Offs for Gallade to clean up. I can see Mawile shooting up in usage again because it either beats or pivots into over half of the S / A+ threats and Baton Pass allows it to keep momentum on your side easily as well. Tauros and Fletchling beat it 1 on 1 but getting an Intimidate off can go a long way in preventing them from running over you. It's not the most creative core in the world and I'm sure people have used it before, but Mawile + Lanturn + Hariyama sounds like a really nice core. Struggles with hazards and lack of speed, but you have 3 more slots to cover that and you're already pretty sound defensively.

Getting back to Gallade, its lack of counters means it probably needs to get banned sooner than later. SD / CC / Psycho Cut / Knock Off ragaves everything slower than it outside of Granbull, and Colbur Psychics and the latter can't even really do anything back. I suppose they can all pivot out to a revenge killer via U-Turn (Xatu, Uxie, Mesprit) or Baton Pass (Musharna), but that only works once. Unless the revenge killer is CB Sneasel that clicks Pursuit (yay coin flips), nothing can prevent Gallade from setting up again and doing massive damage then. So yeah if we ignore Granbull for a while, the best way to deal with Gallade is either revenge killing or not letting it set up via offensive pressure. Granted, it isn't the easiest thing in the world to set up in the first place, but between its good special bulk and decent offensive pressure at +0, it's reasonable to assume Gallade will find a way to set up against most teams. I didn't even talk about the variety of Gallade's sets, because I don't know them as well and SD is the one that's really ban worthy, but they undoubtedly add to Gallade's brokenness.

This might be more controversial, but maybe we should look at Sneasel as a potential suspect in the future as well. It's easily one of the most defining forces in this metagame. It pressures 90% of the tier with its Speed and power and it's a nightmare to face for offensive teams. If it's CB, it's a great team player by trapping the Ghost / Psychic types your opponent needs to check other members of your team (hi Gallade!). On the other hand, it's got plenty of checks and counters, it's SR weak and it's very frail with a CB attached. Saying that removing Sneasel will make the metagame better, is a dangerous argument because Sneasel keeps a lot of the Psychic types in check that might rule the tier otherwise. But yeah Sneasel is very, very good, so it probably deserves some kind of discussion.

I didn't face a single SmashPass team while laddering for reqs, but by looking at some replays and reading the arguments in this thread, it should definitely be nerfed in some way. This thread could serve as good inspiration and if you haven't read it already you should :o But yeah, I feel like it might be easiest to just quickban Shell Smash + Baton Pass for now and wait and see what OU does. If they go through with "can't pass boosts in 2 different stats or +4 boosts all around", that can be extended to NU later, but it doesn't seem like OU will reach a verdict very soon. The priority should be getting rid of SmashPass right here and now in NU though.

edit: ugh I'm becoming as big a tryhard as finch

 

[HJAD]

With Magneton being gone, the meta is probably going to revolve around Sneasel + Gallade for a while now. The core is so incredibly potent with Sneasel trapping Psychic and Ghost types or softening up walls with its powerful Knock Offs for Gallade to clean up. I can see Mawile shooting up in usage again because it either beats or pivots into over half of the S / A+ threats and Baton Pass allows it to keep momentum on your side easily as well. Tauros and Fletchling beat it 1 on 1 but getting an Intimidate off can go a long way in preventing them from running over you. It's not the most creative core in the world and I'm sure people have used it before, but Mawile + Lanturn + Hariyama sounds like a really nice core. Struggles with hazards and lack of speed, but you have 3 more slots to cover that and you're already pretty sound defensively.

Getting back to Gallade, its lack of counters means it probably needs to get banned sooner than later. SD / CC / Psycho Cut / Knock Off ragaves everything slower than it outside of Mawile, Granbull, and Colbur Psychics and the latter can't even really do anything back. I suppose they can all pivot out to a revenge killer via U-Turn (Xatu, Uxie, Mesprit) or Baton Pass (Musharna), but that only works once. Unless the revenge killer is CB Sneasel that clicks Pursuit (yay coin flips), nothing can prevent Gallade from setting up again and doing massive damage then. So yeah if we ignore Granbull for a while, the best way to deal with Gallade is either revenge killing or not letting it set up via offensive pressure. Granted, it isn't the easiest thing in the world to set up in the first place, but between its good special bulk and decent offensive pressure at +0, it's reasonable to assume Gallade will find a way to set up against most teams. I didn't even talk about the variety of Gallade's sets, because I don't know them as well and SD is the one that's really ban worthy, but they undoubtedly add to Gallade's brokenness.

This might be more controversial, but maybe we should look at Sneasel as a potential suspect in the future as well. It's easily one of the most defining forces in this metagame. It pressures 90% of the tier with its Speed and power and it's a nightmare to face for offensive teams. If it's CB, it's a great team player by trapping the Ghost / Psychic types your opponent needs to check other members of your team (hi Gallade!). On the other hand, it's got plenty of checks and counters, it's SR weak and it's very frail with a CB attached. Saying that removing Sneasel will make the metagame better, is a dangerous argument because Sneasel keeps a lot of the Psychic types in check that might rule the tier otherwise. But yeah Sneasel is very, very good, so it probably deserves some kind of discussion.

I didn't face a single SmashPass team while laddering for reqs, but by looking at some replays and reading the arguments in this thread, it should definitely be nerfed in some way. This thread could serve as good inspiration and if you haven't read it already you should :o But yeah, I feel like it might be easiest to just quickban Shell Smash + Baton Pass for now and wait and see what OU does. If they go through with "can't pass boosts in 2 different stats or +4 boosts all around", that can be extended to NU later, but it doesn't seem like OU will reach a verdict very soon. The priority should be getting rid of SmashPass right here and now in NU though.

edit: ugh I'm becoming as big a thyhard as finch

I'm seconding this opinion on a possible Sneasel suspect in the future.
I know we have just come our of one and sneasel isnt the biggest fish to fry ATM since it has counters and is somewhat manageable, but there is undeniably a meta trend where any team that is remotely balanced runs a sneasel to shit on offense due to its ridiculous base speed, strong dual stab which can be further amplified by a choice ban / life orb. Not to mention it isn't only a one trick pony, it can run both banded sets and swords dance life orb / Eviolite sets to extreme devastation.
Just want to reiterate that sneasel is really really good, anyone else think its too good? Or just a good mon

 

[Deej Dy]

I personally love Sneasel in this metagame and would hate to have to suspected/banned or whatever you guys are calling for. Here are a few quick reasons; however, if you guys are actually adamant on banning/suspecting it I'll likely come up with more in depth reasons.

-First off, if keeps the rampant number of calm mind psychics such as Musharna, Uxie, and Xatu in check, and without Sneasel we only have
Malamar, Liepard, and Cacturne left as viable dark types.

-Second off, its attack is only 95, which is perfectly stoppable. Even along with Band, there are a large number of switchin's and lets not forget it gets
Choiced locked into pursuit or w/e. You can also do Swords Dance (the set I prefer), but once again that requires a turn to set up with a Pokemon 4x weak to mach punch.

- It's fun to use and have pursuit mind games. Sure, having fun shouldn't be the only reasoning behind not suspecting something, but I figured I'd state my opinion anyway.

- It is frail AF and is weak to SR, which limits the times Sneasel can switchin. Whenever I use Sneasel I always have strong hazard support like defog/Xatu or else Sneasel usually dies extremely early in the match (esp. with life orb)

 

[Orphic]

I'm seconding this opinion on a possible Sneasel suspect in the future.
I know we have just come our of one and sneasel isnt the biggest fish to fry ATM since it has counters and is somewhat manageable, but there is undeniably a meta trend where any team that is remotely balanced runs a sneasel to shit on offense due to its ridiculous base speed, strong dual stab which can be further amplified by a choice ban / life orb. Not to mention it isn't only a one trick pony, it can run both banded sets and swords dance life orb / Eviolite sets to extreme devastation.
Just want to reiterate that sneasel is really really good, anyone else think its too good? Or just a good mon

I think the fact that colbur berry+signal beam on every psychic type on a balanced team (I've seen like 2 per team sometimes) is a pretty big indication as to why this thing alters the metagame a ton.
However, that's all I think it does. I think it's extremely unwise to call suspect tests on every strong pokemon in the meta, yes it's fast, yes it's strong, but is it overcentralising or too powerful? No. The colbur berry psychic types are a good example of adapting the metagame to the current threats. The reason this is different to overcentralising is because there are plenty of Sneasel checks out there, and I mean plenty: Rhydon, Garbodor, SNEASEL, Mawile, Regirock, Gurdurr, Hariyama etc. Therefore, the meta handles Sneasel well, and you really don't have to try too hard to fit a check or two on your team, for these reasons, I'd reject a suspect test of Sneasel.
As Deej pointed out, it doesn't have that high an Atk stat, it can only hit hard right off the bat with a choice band set. For this reason it also finds itself being rather predictable. As well as having a case of serious 4MSS, what do you sub Low Kick in for? I'd also hate to be left with just Tauros as a fast wallbreaker in this tier.

 

[scorpdestroyer]

I think Sneasel deserves a suspect test

I personally love Sneasel in this metagame and would hate to have to suspected/banned or whatever you guys are calling for. Here are a few quick reasons; however, if you guys are actually adamant on banning/suspecting it I'll likely come up with more in depth reasons.

-First off, if keeps the rampant number of calm mind psychics such as Musharna,Uxie, and Xatu in check, and without it we only have like
Malamar/Liepard, and Cacturne left as viable dark types.

-Second off, its attack is only 95, which is perfectly stoppable, even along with Band and there are a large number of switchin's and lets not forget it gets
choiced locked into pursuit or w/e. You can also do Swords Dance (the set I prefer), but once again that requires a turn to set up with a pokemon 4x weak to mach punch.

- It's fun to use and have pursuit mind games. Sure, having fun shouldn't be the only reasoning behind not suspecting something, but I figured I'd state my opinion anyway.

- It is frail AF and is weak to SR, which limits the times Sneasel can switchin. Whenever I use Sneasel I always have strong hazard support like defog/Xat or else Sneasel usually dies extremely early in the match (esp. with life orb)

I disagree with some of the reasons you mentioned:
- Sneasel checking other mons is not a reason for keeping it in the tier. Sneasel isn't the only check to CM psychics anyway, and I don't think you can consider them broken if Sneasel left the tier. Even if they were, we'd just ban them.

- yup, it has "only" base 95 attack, but you have to consider that it's a base 95 Atk stay with 2 of the most spammable and powerful STAB moves (especially knock which you don't even have to predict with and it wears down its counters automatically), coming off one of the fastest mons in the tier, boosted by choice band

- pursuit mind games are pretty dumb. With Sneasel lurking everywhere, I can no longer run Haunter and Mismagius effectively because they just die almost guaranteed after killing something, I have to be careful locking my Mesprit into psychic or Sneasel will trap me etc. Also there's like only 1 mach punch user?

- hazard weakness is annoying, but like you said Xatu support is usually enough to give Sneasel a few extra switches in to do its job. in addition I never actually found the hazard weakness to be too problematic when using CB Sneasel, probably because Sneasel is so fast that's usually the only form of damage it takes anyway :/

I think the fact that colbur berry+signal beam on every psychic type on a balanced team (I've seen like 2 per team sometimes) is a pretty big indication as to why this thing alters the metagame a ton.
However, that's all I think it does. I think it's extremely unwise to call suspect tests on every strong pokemon in the meta, yes it's fast, yes it's strong, but is it overcentralising or too powerful? No. The colbur berry psychic types are a good example of adapting the metagame to the current threats. The reason this is different to overcentralising is because there are plenty of Sneasel checks out there, and I mean plenty: Rhydon, Garbodor, SNEASEL, Mawile, Regirock, Gurdurr, Hariyama etc. Therefore, the meta handles Sneasel well, and you really don't have to try too hard to fit a check or two on your team, for these reasons, I'd reject a suspect test of Sneasel.
As Deej pointed out, it doesn't have that high an Atk stat, it can only hit hard right off the bat with a choice band set. For this reason it also finds itself being rather predictable. As well as having a case of serious 4MSS, what do you sub Low Kick in for? I'd also hate to be left with just Tauros as a fast wallbreaker in this tier.

The problem with the list of Sneasel counters you listed is that all of them are slow mons and don't have reliable recovery, and are tbh quite a limited pool. Sneasel doesn't really have offensive checks because it's just so fast, it's probably only limited to priority from Gurdurr / hariyama and the occasional random scarfer. Apart from that you're going to need to put in a mawile / Carracosta / regirock / Poliwrath into your team if you want to check Sneasel effectively. The rest of the checks will get knocked off and then beaten the next 1-2 times they try and switch in, which is fine if you don't mind playing around Sneasel I guess. Point is, Sneasel's list of counters is a very limited pool of slow Pokemon that aren't very varied (ie are generally limited to similar roles of being very bulky pivots/walls), while the defensive checks eventually just get overwhelmed.

Add that to the fact that Sneasel restricts a lot of frail sweepers with its pursuit and very spammable STABs, I think its restrictiveness is worthy of at least a suspect test.

 

[Orphic]

Add that to the fact that Sneasel restricts a lot of frail sweepers with its pursuit and very spammable STABs, I think its restrictiveness is worthy of at least a suspect test.

I understand what you said about the list of checks I provided, but honestly, I do not find myself restricted in teambuilding with Sneasel in the tier. The fact is, with the previous tests, there have been limited checks to the pokemon in question. Now regardless of whether Sneasel's checks have reliable recovery, they're mostly very bulky, and also very easy to fit on teams like Regirock and Mawile. Couple this with how simple it is to wear Sneasel down with priority and hazards, and it's not restrictive at all.

 

[Disjunction]

If we're all really going to take the mind set of "one threat down, let's rush to decide what to suspect next before the meta settles," then yes, I would think Gallade + Sneasel are our two best choices.

If we're going to talk about how amazingly Gallade matches up vs Balance, then I certainly don't think it's right to brush off Sneasel's matchup vs Offense. Despite only having access to STAB options, Sneasel hits the majority of the tier for neutral damage, excluding Poliwrath, Pawniard, Mawile, Thick Fat Yama, Monferno, Pignite, and other Sneasel. Anything else, especially frail offensive mons, are hit hard by something Sneasel wants to throw out, whether it be a Knock Off, Icicle Crash, or Pursuit. Obviously, Defensive mons are threatened at the prospect of losing an item from "The Strongest Knock Off in the Tier."™

You also can't ignore the fact that Sneasel completely ignores all of the standards for what a "good" speed tier is and actually outspeeds every relevant, non-Scarf Offensive mon outside of Zebstrika.

I'm not saying it's "clear cut broken", but it's definitely on par with Gallade in terms of threatening a certain play style. I'm not going to say "YEA LET'S BAN IT" I'm saying "YEA LET'S SUSPECT IT" which is different.

 

[boltsandbombers]

I think we have a problem when there are three different things that we want suspected, being Gallade, SmashPass, and potentially Sneasel. All of them have arguably broken or unhealthy affects on the metagame, but we as a community and the council need to prioirtize which is the most problematic to the tier. I realize that the magneton suspect just ended, but as others have said, I don't think the tier is very healthy / fun / stable / etc at the moment due to the excessive amount of threats that you need to account for in teambuilding. It's kinda like we have a boat with 20 holes in the walls and we're trying patch up the biggest ones.

I feel that Gallade is the biggest issue that needs to be addressed, as its unique and extremely good STAB combination combined with absurd versatility and ability to boost its stats is unmatched. Gallade has very few legitimate defensive answers, and while offense has little trouble revenge killing the banded or sd sets, they struggle versus the bulk up or even scarf sets.

Sneasel is just as much of an issue, and I don't want to reiterate the points others have made but the ability to threaten all playstyles while fitting into every team incredibly easily is, well, a bit too much. While it does have a reasonable about of checks and counters, the fact that the majority of them do not have reliable recovery and are crippled by losing their item is just adding on to the problem.

It would also be pretty logical to suspect these together considering how incredibly well they support each other, between pursuit support and general type synergy.

SmashPass is not as prominent as the previous two but still shouldn't ignored, although I feel it's somewhat of a smaller hole to patch up and should probably be addressed afterwards.

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Can we not talk about suspecting something else when the metagame hasn't even had time to breathe post-Magneton? Don't make your mind up on something before we've even had a chance to play the meta.

 

[Punchshroom]

I mean it's pretty obvious why Gallade would be put up on the suspect slate. This Pokemon seems almost tailormade to dismantle balance teams; its Swords Dance sets combined with very high power plus perfect neutral coverage are utterly terrifying to defend against (Granbull and Colbur Gourgeist are your only real hopes, as even Togetic may fall if it gets Knocked Off prior while Quagsire doesn't switch into LO Close Combat), and then there are its Choice sets which have access to Trick, so it won't necessarily be saddled by being locked into moves and potentially cripple a switch-in (including its counters, though Granbull would probably be the most well insulated against it). Basically, Gallade's various sets grant it more favorable matchups against a variety of playstyles, yet almost all still seem to screw with balance in some way. This is a pretty high priority suspect, because we certainly had plenty of things to worry about before the quickdrop, and the last thing this meta needs is what is essentially an upgraded Sawk. (so help me if one person starts bringing up Set of Champions arguments again...)

Sneasel on the other hand is more equipped to break down more offensive teams, which would most certainly be run by many players to keep Gallade at bay. The main arguments against Sneasel being suspected would be its "fraility", "hazard weakness", "95 Atk" or other statwise nitpickings people would bring up, but more notably, Sneasel isn't as universally threatening to playstyles as Gallade is. However, Sneasel's biggest issue is that it possesses very risk-free dual STABs that have a disgusting amount of coverage on the meta, and it is incredibly fast and strong enough to boot (it does have Sword Dance if you're interested). What makes Sneasel a more medium priority suspect for me is that offense still has options to defend themselves with, such as Mawile, Carracosta, Regirock, Hariyama, and Poliwrath, while bulkier teams have access to all those Pokemon and more, such as Quagsire, Weezing, and Mega Audino, so it certainly doesn't seem very restricting on teambuilding at first glance, but I can see why it is brought up as a potential suspect.

 

[Tomahawk]

Gallade has pretty much no guaranteed counters. Checks, sure, but no real counters. There will always be a move it can slot in or a simple nature or item change that will help it beat the supposed counter. Well, probably I missed one counter but here are some calcs vs potential Gallade switchins:

Audino:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Gallade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Audino: 333-394 (81.2 - 96%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Uxie:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Gallade Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Uxie: 354-416 (100 - 117.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Gallade Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Uxie: 322-380 (90.9 - 107.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Musharna:
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Gallade Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 426-504 (98.3 - 116.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Quagsire:
252 Atk Life Orb Gallade Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 400-473 (101.5 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Gallade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 199-235 (50.5 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Togetic:
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Gallade Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Togetic: 237-281 (75.7 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Granbull:
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Gallade Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Granbull: 320-377 (83.3 - 98.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Yes Punchshroom, I realize that Gallade is very, very powerful against most playstlyes and has been brought up as a possible since the moment Antar said it may quickdrop to NU. However, I'd just like to do my part to curb Smogon's mentality as a whole of constantly looking for things to suspect, and by suspect I mean ban. (I understand that being suspected doesn't necessarily mean it will be banned, but another problem Smogon has is that most users see a mon up for suspect and have their mind made up that it's being broken before they even get reqs.) In my opinion, it's completely pointless to be calling for a suspect when the latest ban hasn't even been implemented on the ladder.

 

[Punchshroom]

Nebuchadnezzar, the point of suspects is to remove unhealthy components of the metagame, and not all metas immediately suspect another mon the moment their current suspect ends. Between the ORAS Megas, ORAS tutors, the release of certain hidden abilities, and new (or old) comers to the meta, be it tiershift or quickdrops, NU has kind of been in a state of unrest and never really settled down, so the suspects are sort of urgent. There is really nothing wrong with suspecting mons in quick succession if the meta isn't currently in balance due to overpowered threats, or some elephants in the room just need to be rid of.

Tomahawk you forgot Gourgeist. Still, I don't think it is too practical for SD Gallade to carry Poison Jab (it's probably more suited for CB Gallades), nor is it fair to not list Colbur Psychic calcs; though that said, Gallade could do significant damage with +2 boosted Knock Offs against Colbur, or just +2 unboosted Knock Offs.

 

[Evan.]

Yeah so im of the opinion that Sneasel should be suspected, even ahead of Gallade.

After a bunch of laddering, and reading hollywoods post about how he's not sure whats making this metagame unfun, ive come to the realization that its Sneasel, not gallade. Sneasel pretty much dismantles most offensive teams by itself since it outspeeds practically every mon in the tier and there aren't any switch ins on offensive teams. Even if you have counters on offense like, you can't even reliably switch into them because of Banded Pursuit which forces each mon to, i dont want to call it a 50/50 cause its not really a true 50/50, but it forces mons to think twice before switching out which can force even more kills. It can also run Low Kick which can beat other supposed counters like Avalugg and Regirock. Also the argument about sneasel having 4MSS is kinda dumb, considering that it doesnt need to run Low Kick, it has the option to. 4MSS is when a mon needs more than 4 move slots to be really effective in the meta (see: gogoat), whereas what sneasel as is the option to run a coverage move > pursuit if it wants to fuck some of its counters.

Speaking of counters, Sneasel is unprecedented in how efficiently it breaks down its defensive answers on balance teams, even without Low Kick. This is because most of it's defensive answers rely on either eviolite or leftovers in order to prevent from being worn down, they are crippled by Knock Off and are hard pressed to switch in multiple times. This leaves us with pretty much Poliwrath, MegaDino, Defensive Mawile and Defensive Carracosta as full counters to sneasel (and even costa and maw get worn down because knock off removes their lefties which are their only form of recovery) and there aren't even any good offensive checks to it outside of weird scarfers and Gurdurr b/c of how rare mach punch is and because it outspeeds the entire meta and has a good STAB priority. At least Gallade is just solely a wallbreaker (albiet its probably the best wallbreaker we've ever seen in the tier) and has a bunch of offensive checks and defensive stuff like Granbull or Colbur Xatu that teams can throw on, whereas sneasel just has so few answers and just forces the metagame to center around it so much.

When people talk about hazards and wearing sneasel down, i feel like its really not as potent of an argument as it was during typh meta. Spikes are non-existent right now because of the prevalence of Xatu on practically every balance team, as well as the lack of solid setters that beat xatu outside of like offensive roselia and offensive Garb. When people talk about rocks wearing it down, ok it has a rocks weakness but there are actual forms of hazard removal in the tier rn and sneasel separates itself due to the fact that it will likely get multiple hits off per switch in due to the lack of mons that outspeed and force it out.

Sneasel is a strange case because its not as cut and dry as a normal suspect is, but I fully believe that it is skewing the metagame into an unhealthy state. It has counters but they really only fit on fat balance and defensive teams. It also has the ability to easily break down these counters, while still straight beating offensive teams due to its lack of offensive checks, pursuit, and incredible Dual STAB. All of these factors make me want this thing suspected ASAP.