CAP 20 CAP 20 - Playtest [FINALS]

[Birkal]

The CAP 20 Naviathan Playtest has officially begun!


​

After 94 days of debate, discussion and polling, we have now completed our third CAP of the 6th Generation of Pokemon. Thanks to the leadership of nyttyn and our Topic Leadership Team, we are now pleased to present Naviathan. For the inaugural battle (with 939 spectators!), our Topic Leader nyttyn brought a team of special attackers with Mega Gardevoir at the center. But his team ultimately fell to sparktrain, one of our rising contributors and Showdown CAP Project regulars, which featured Mega Metagross sporting Hammer Arm for the easy OHKO against Naviathan. You can watch the whole battle here or by clicking on the above image. Thanks to these two battlers for the entertaining bout.

And now, Naviathan is available for public use on Pokemon Showdown. Yippee!

Once you're there, hop onto the Teambuilder to make a team for the CAP 20 Naviathan Playtest Ladder. Remember, you don't need to use Naviathan on your team; any Gen6 Overused team will do just fine. Once you're ready, get on the Playtest ladder and try out your team. Throughout the next two weeks, you'll face plenty of opponents who are testing the new metagame that features the unpredictable Naviathan.

The Naviathan Playtest Ladder will only be available for two weeks, meaning that its time will be over on June 21st. The top eight users on the ladder will compete in a tournament to win bragging rights on site and consideration towards the CAP Contributor badge. Use this thread to post your impressions and thoughts on the new metagame. Share whatever tidbits of advice you may have. Best of luck on the playtest ladder!

Want to learn more about the Create-A-Pokemon Project? Check out the CAP Site for more information. See y'all on the ladder!

NOTE: Naviathan was created for the OU Metagame back in March 2015. Therefore, Landorus was considered while building this Pokemon and is deemed legal for the playtest.

 

[nyttyn]

i thought he was running bullet punch / meteor mash / zen headbutt / grass knot

i was wrong

 

[Swede]

Is it standard for there to only be one CAP pokemon allowed during an inaugural playtest?

 

[ginganinja]

Confirming that Landorus-I IS NOT BANNED for this playtest.

Dislike away~

 

[acidphoenix]

issue: i'm fighting a guy with already-mega'd poke.

replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/capnaviathanplaytest-238874944

 

[jas61292]

issue: i'm fighting a guy with already-mega'd poke.

replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/capnaviathanplaytest-238874944

There is currently problems with the playtest ladder rules. This is known and being worked on.

 

[Phione]

Is it standard for there to only be one CAP pokemon allowed during an inaugural playtest?

Yes. CAPs are built for the OU metagame, not the CAP metagame.

 

[sparktrain]

★NyttyN: naviathan does nothing: the battle

Metagross used Hammer Arm!
It's super effective! The opposing Acta est fabula lost 100% of its health!

The opposing Raison d'etre used Hyper Voice!
It's not very effective... Oarmagod lost 52.6% of its health!

Pretty much.

gg nyttyn, and good luck to all on the ladder!

 

[Mowtom]

Is anyone else incapable of viewing past turn 15?

 

[Birkal]

Is anyone else incapable of viewing past turn 15?

Nope, it's a known issue that we're trying to fix. Patience!

 

[jas61292]

There is currently problems with the playtest ladder rules. This is known and being worked on.

In case anyone doesn't know yet, the problems with the ladder have been fixed. Have fun playtesting everyone!

 

[Freeroamer]

Naviathan @ Leftovers
Ability: Heatproof
EVs: 252 HP / 216 Def / 40 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Slack Off
- Scald
- Taunt
- Toxic

I didn't take part in the process but I like playtesting because CAP always introduces some fresh ideas. However, from testing Naviathan, I've found the DD sets to be quite underwhelming, and the CM sets are definitely a threat to prepare for. However the set I've actually ended up using most is the one above because this thing is really quite fat when invested and thanks to that great typing it can check a whole slew of dangerous threats such as Bisharp, Lati@s, Talonflame, non-EQ Zard X, Clefable and kind of Azumarill(CB Superpower and BD blow you back but otherwise you're good). I prefer Heatproof because that Fire resistance really helps vs certain threats altho being immune to burn is kinda cool too, esp. vs TauntWisp Talon which can theoretically try to stall you out. Taunt+Toxic allied with it's decent Speed allows you to take on a ton of defensive threats, esp. with your own immunity to Toxic. EVs outspeed Adamant Bish, and therefore most defensive mons too.

 

[Golden009]

This is the first playtest I'm competing in, even though I've been lurking here since Tomohawk, so I'm looking forward to seeing how Naviathan plays. The standard CM set looks the best to me, although I admit I haven't laddered with it, so I don't know what's going to happen.


We still need a Mega CAP though.

 

[BigWigs]

Played with Naviathan (the CM set specifically), managed to sweep a few competent teams with it, it's something pretty fun to use late game and is also pretty good at taking things like Talonflame Brave Birds for the team early game. I'd have to say Taunt feels like a must-have to me, as it's crucial to winning CM wars against fellow Naviathans and Slowbros, as well as take care of some other annoying things such as Ferrothorn.

 

[QueenOfLuvdiscs]

I really like CM / Stallbreaker sets on Naviathan because those sets are much more reliable, it could also be because every DD set I've faced has use Ice coverage along with it's dual STABs, which is the worst option ever, getting completely walled by every Water type and only hits Garchomp ever and even with Adamant, it's low base power moves means it just hits like a li'l bitch. RIP DD set, we gave CM too much and it's gonna be overshadowed by it.

 

[Birkal]

For anyone who's interested, we (mostly nyttyn and Snobalt) made a brief skeleton analysis for Naviathan back during Moveset Discussion. You can find the full post here. While it was based off of speculation, you may be able to glean some ideas about why we designed CAP 20 the way we did. It should also help alleviate some questions about coverage / optimal spreads. If you have anything you'd like to add here for when we put it up on site, let us know by posting!


CAP20 Skeleton Analysis

• A dangerous set-up sweeper that, while not the top of its field in either category, can perform either a quick Dragon Dance sweep or a prolonged Calm Mind sweep.
• Water/Steel typing provides a plethora of setup opportunities, aided by both Water Veil and Heatproof
• Somewhat lackluster without the ability to setup
• Best on teams that can provide it the support it requires.

Dragon Dance + 3 Attacks
Name: Dragon Dance + 3 Attacks
Move 1: Dragon Dance
Move 2: Waterfall / Iron Head
Move 3: Iron Head / Icicle Crash / Ice Punch
Move 4: Wild Charge
Ability: Water Veil
EVs: 48 HP / 252 Atk / 208 Spe OR 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
Item: Life Orb

• Because of CAP 20’s Steel/Water typing and Water Viel ability, it is able to set up Dragon Dances on a plethora of common mons, such as Clefable and Mega Sableye.
• Dragon Dance allows it to outspeed the most common Choice Scarf user in the tier, Landorus-T.
• Waterfall and Iron Head are your main forms of stab, allowing you to deal with bulky ground types as well as pesky fairies like Unaware Clefable who are 2HK0’d despite ignoring your boosts.
• Ice coverage gives this CAP perfect neutral coverage alongside Wild Charge and hits Landorus-T harder than Waterfall does
• Wild Charge rounds out CAP20's coverage, giving it neutral coverage on most of the metgame, barring a few exceptions such as Ferrothorn and Gastrodon. Wild Charge lets CAP20 OHKO Mega Charizard Y and Keldeo at +1, and heavily damages foes such as Mega Slowbro, Suicune, and Skarmory, allowing CAP20 to sweep past them if they have been sufficiently weakened. Keep in mind that Life Orb recoil piles up quickly alongside Wild Charge recoil.
• Partners that can provide entry hazards are greatly appreciated.
• Best used to clean up heavily weakened teams or teams full of frail members.

Calm Mind
Name: Calm Mind
Move 1: Calm Mind
Move 2: Scald
Move 3: Slack Off
Move 4: Flash Cannon / Refresh / Taunt
Ability: Heatproof
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA OR 232 HP / 252 Def / 24 SpD
Nature: Bold
Item: Leftovers

• Calm Mind is required
• Scald is primary STAB move
• Slack Off heals off damage taken
• Last move is filler. Flash Cannon allows CAP to beat stuff such as Clefable and Altaria and Refresh allows it to heal off status, primarily paralysis and burn.
• EVs and item are self explanatory, while the second EV spread ensures Timid Heatran does not 2HKO with Earth Power when the CAP is at +1
• Scald allows CAP20 to still be useful before it sets up, by coming in and burning would-be switchins throughout the match.
• Best used to demolish defensive teams when checks/counters are either heavily weakened or taken out of the picture.

 

[QueenOfLuvdiscs]

For anyone who's interested, we (mostly nyttyn and Snobalt) made a brief skeleton analysis for Naviathan back during Moveset Discussion. You can find the full post here. While it was based off of speculation, you may be able to glean some ideas about why we designed CAP 20 the way we did. It should also help alleviate some questions about coverage / optimal spreads. If you have anything you'd like to add here for when we put it up on site, let us know by posting!


CAP20 Skeleton Analysis

• A dangerous set-up sweeper that, while not the top of its field in either category, can perform either a quick Dragon Dance sweep or a prolonged Calm Mind sweep.
• Water/Steel typing provides a plethora of setup opportunities, aided by both Water Veil and Heatproof
• Somewhat lackluster without the ability to setup
• Best on teams that can provide it the support it requires.

Dragon Dance + 3 Attacks
Name: Dragon Dance + 3 Attacks
Move 1: Dragon Dance
Move 2: Waterfall / Iron Head
Move 3: Iron Head / Icicle Crash / Ice Punch
Move 4: Wild Charge
Ability: Water Veil
EVs: 48 HP / 252 Atk / 208 Spe OR 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
Item: Life Orb

• Because of CAP 20’s Steel/Water typing and Water Viel ability, it is able to set up Dragon Dances on a plethora of common mons, such as Clefable and Mega Sableye.
• Dragon Dance allows it to outspeed the most common Choice Scarf user in the tier, Landorus-T.
• Waterfall and Iron Head are your main forms of stab, allowing you to deal with bulky ground types as well as pesky fairies like Unaware Clefable who are 2HK0’d despite ignoring your boosts.
• Ice coverage gives this CAP perfect neutral coverage alongside Wild Charge and hits Landorus-T harder than Waterfall does
• Wild Charge rounds out CAP20's coverage, giving it neutral coverage on most of the metgame, barring a few exceptions such as Ferrothorn and Gastrodon. Wild Charge lets CAP20 OHKO Mega Charizard Y and Keldeo at +1, and heavily damages foes such as Mega Slowbro, Suicune, and Skarmory, allowing CAP20 to sweep past them if they have been sufficiently weakened. Keep in mind that Life Orb recoil piles up quickly alongside Wild Charge recoil.
• Partners that can provide entry hazards are greatly appreciated.
• Best used to clean up heavily weakened teams or teams full of frail members.

Calm Mind
Name: Calm Mind
Move 1: Calm Mind
Move 2: Scald
Move 3: Slack Off
Move 4: Flash Cannon / Refresh / Taunt
Ability: Heatproof
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA OR 232 HP / 252 Def / 24 SpD
Nature: Bold
Item: Leftovers

• Calm Mind is required
• Scald is primary STAB move
• Slack Off heals off damage taken
• Last move is filler. Flash Cannon allows CAP to beat stuff such as Clefable and Altaria and Refresh allows it to heal off status, primarily paralysis and burn.
• EVs and item are self explanatory, while the second EV spread ensures Timid Heatran does not 2HKO with Earth Power when the CAP is at +1
• Scald allows CAP20 to still be useful before it sets up, by coming in and burning would-be switchins throughout the match.
• Best used to demolish defensive teams when checks/counters are either heavily weakened or taken out of the picture.

After reading this, these sets were supposed to be the defining and main sets of Naviathan, being able to function as 2 completely different sweepers, however, these sets/spreads really need some tweaking to really showcase what Naviathan is capable of doing. The last 2 bullets points actually made laugh. One of the best sets it has is no set which I have explained as to why that is and I don't see why need to tell people the obvious, like, I'm pretty sure that's common knowledge when building a team, but i dunno.

Starting with the DD set, I don't understand what that HP invest is for as it's never explained, just seems it is there to look cool tbh. Ice coverage is so bad on it as well, as it only hits 2 Pokemon, Lando-t and Garchomp. Waterfall 2HKOs Defensive Lando with a bit of prio damage and it OHKOs Scarf, and it just adds more counters to it, as it unable to hit anything with a Water typing, but if you are reall that desperate to beat it, by all means run Ice, but I'd rather use Return as it actually provides amazing neutral coverage with Water.
252 Atk Life Orb Naviathan Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 322-382 (100.9 - 119.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

-1 252 Atk Life Orb Naviathan Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 159-190 (41.6 - 49.7%) -- 28.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

And saying that Naviathan can set up on Mega Sableye is a bit iffy, not only is Mega Sableye not common in the OU metagame, Foul Play prevents Naviathan from setting up on it, despite in being immune to burns, it's gonna lose to Mega Sableye, unless you get really lucky with hax which isn't a valid option at all.

The CM set is the set that really shines, because the coverage it has works so much better on the special side, rather than the physical and the extra bulk you can invest makes it really durable. However, not invested, it's really slow and not hard to revenge at all, even after a CM it can be revenged meaning that speed is crucial for it to be really amazing, otherwise it seems like a waster to have such a good speed stat and just not use it. Substitute can be used over Slack Off, as boosting behind a sub with that bulk is terrifying and this what makes the slow boosting set a true force to be reckoned with, making revenge killing really hard and aids its setup even more than recovery can do for it. Flash Cannon isn't all that great on it either, as you beat Clef anyways and only DD Altaria is a threat, which has to risk being burnt by Scald to beat it, and even with Heal Bell/Refresh, Taunt just shuts this down completely and becomes setup fodder for it and should be the primary slot over Flash Cannon.

Speaking of which, Taunt is the move that really broke Naviathan and has allowed a no set-up option to be really good; A fast taunt user that is immune to Toxic and takes half damage from burns with recovery alongside an amazing defensive typing and bulk. Iirc, Taunt was so 'the Calm Mind set got something good as well as Dragon Dance' or something along those lines, but it's turned Naviathan into a fat stallbreaker than the double set-up sweeper we envisioned.

In short, DD has failed due to having no powerful STABs and need Life Orb to do anything, making revenging / whittling super easy and walled by a lot of mons where CM has outdone itself because Taunt is broken on it and should have never been allowed in the first place.

 

[Vryheid]

If you couldn't see within ten minutes of looking at this Pokemon that calm mind/scald/slack off/taunt is far and away the best set, I dunno what to tell ya. That doesn't mean its a bad Pokemon though, it adds a much needed switchin to Fairies and many Dragon types that isn't cripplingly weak to stall teams. Hitting the rare balance between having a useful niche (unlike Volkraken) and not being stupidly overpowered (unlike Cawmodore) shows that the balancing process has done unusually well this time around. It's fun enough to use in the playtest so far and has never felt too difficult to check.

I'm interested to see what kind of cores people come up with to deal with its easily exploitable electric/ground/fighting weaknesses. Maybe Specially Defensive Gliscor is a good partner, but that still doesn't help against Thundurus.

 

[Astra]

I'm currently creating my team and I can see that Landorus-T can cover all of Naviathan's weakness. It can easily take Electric, Ground, and Fighting-Type moves, while Naviathan can take Ice and Water-Type moves. Just a little food for thought.

 

[Alfalfa]

When Water / Steel was selected as the typing, I knew from the get go that Dragon Dance sets were going to suck. It does not take a couple of matches for you to figure that out; it should theoretically have everything it needs in good bulk, speed tier, and just enough coverage to break through what it needs, but it does not fit well in this current metagame, which it is supposed to fit in. Relying on Life Orb for a Dragon Dance user to inflict damage really blows, since you get worn down so easily, and Naviathan really does not have the raw power needed to forgo Life Orb, meaning that the set is very limited towards a its life span. I would rather just use Zard X if I wanted a Dragon Dance user that could outspeed Scarf Lando-T, since that is a hell of a lot more threatening, and while it can kill itself easily with Flare Blitz, a good Zard X-based team will be able to clear the way so Zard X does not have to kill itself every time it uses Flare Blitz.

 

[NumberCruncher]

So Naviathan has a boatload of problems that keep it from doing what it wants to do(see what I did there). His first problem is that his coverage is awful. He doesn't have a single move in his arsenal that hits Rotom-W outside of Return, which is awful and make him weak to even more than he's usually weak to. Because each of his coverage moves are so bad, you will usually need two if you want a viable DD set, but Clef walls sets without Iron Head, and Electrics wall you without Waterfall.

His second problem is that his special stats are also terrible. His Special Defense in particular. As everybody should probably realize, his only good set is CM/Scald/Taunt/Slack Off. Note that it's only niche use is having Taunt and Calm Mind on the same set along with status resists to set up on stall. The issue becomes that because his stats start criminally low, you don't have a way to punish the opponent for switching into one of this sets innumerable counters.

This creates a weird dual nature, where it win-buttons dedicated stall teams and loses to everything else. This is an interesting niche itself, but certainly not the one we were trying to occupy.

I could go on about what else is wrong with the floating deadweight, but I'm trying to do this on a mobile, and it's fighting me on this one.

 

[Bughouse]

That is an illogical assertion. DD regular Gyarados works just fine and that mon has a rocks weakness, neutrality to talonflame revenging, and equally wallable coverage.

You just have to support it well.

 

[Exclaimer]

The more and more I've been playing the ladder, the more and more I've disliked how effective Naviathan is. He just dies to way too much, from Metagross, to any Ground type that outspeeds it, to Thundurus and Keldeo. Dragon Dance is even worse at taking hits from these guys, which is bad considering that most offensive teams have at least two natural checks to him. Water / Steel may be a great typing, but I have to disagree because that Ground and Fighting weakness really hurt its capabilities as an offensive sweeper, with many Choice Scarf Pokemon having a powerful STAB to bop him with. And Mega Lopunny exists.

I've found no reason to run Dragon Dance Naviathan on any offensive team I've made because it requires way too much removal and support to be able to set up. DD Gyarados and even Feraligatr to an extent bring more to the table that I can appreciate. Maybe I'm just a bit salty that I've been unable to use Naviathan effectively, and Calm Mind is too slow for my preferred playstyle so I've found no reason to even use him. I can agree that stallbreaker Naviathan is really good at what it does, but I don't recommend using it on this ladder, I've seen no stall whatsoever. Probably because everyone is running Naviathan-based balance, or Naviathan killing hyper offense.

 

[sharpen42]

Don't know if this can be useful, but... http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/capnaviathanplaytest-240887658

 

[Birkal]

And just like that, the CAP 20 Playtest is officially over! Let's check out who topped the ladder this time.

(Tagging Antar and The Immortal so they know.)

As mentioned in the OP of this thread, the new format this CAP is an 8 person tournament. As such, what we need right now is for the top finishers to identify themselves. If you see yourself in the screenshot above, please post here identifying yourself. While the tournament is only for 8 people, I would encourage other people on the list to identify themselves as well, in the case of multiple accounts belonging to the same person or in case any individual is unable to participate.

The tournament itself will be single elimination, with each matchup being a best 2 out of 3. First round matchups will be posted after we have the 8 participants identified. Feel free to post with any questions regarding the tournament.

Congrats to all the top finishers!

Ok, we have the participants, now lets get this tournament started.

Tournament Rules:

Specific Rules:

• Naviathan is available for this tournament in addition to typical Pokemon allowed within XY OU. It is not necessary to put on your team; you could win this tournament without ever putting CAP20 on your team.
• All other CAPs are banned for this tournament. This isn't the CAP metagame, it is simply the current CAP + OU.
• Since CAP20 started back in February when Landorus was still legal in OU, it will remain legal for the playtest.
• All matchups will be played as a best of three.

General Rules:

• This tournament will follow the same general rules of those held in the tournaments subforum. These rules and regulations can be found here.
• Species Clause: A player cannot have two of the same pokémon on their team. For example, a player cannot have two Koffing on his or her team.
• Sleep Clause: A player cannot put two or more different opposing Pokémon to sleep using attacks that induce sleep to opposing pokémon.
• Evasion Clause: A player cannot increase their Pokémon's evasion stat with a move that specifically increases evasion. Items or indirect boosts do not break this clause.
• OHKO Clause: Players cannot use Horn Drill, Guillotine, Sheer Cold, or Fissure in any of their Pokémon's movesets.
• Battle Timeout: If a player exhausts the timer, he/she loses.
• Wifi Battle Clause. Team preview must be enabled.
• All matches must be played on Pokemon Showdown!, since Naviathan is not implemented anywhere else.
• If you have any questions be sure to let me (and jas61292) know!

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Forum names of top finishers:
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2)
3)
4)
5)
6)
7)
8)