I remember when the entry hazard sticky web was first announced. There was a big hype about how it was going to completely wreck hyper offense teams and was going to put more reliance on hazard control. I'm kinda disappointed that it got such bad distribution. They should have made a decent spider or silk worm pokemon to go with this move upon release because since it's release it is pretty much non existent. I feel like it would have made stall teams and bulky offense teams more viable this gen. The best setter is shuckle, and nobudy wants to fuckle with shuckle. Leave it to game freak to make an amazing move and then give it zero distribution :/
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The main problem isn't really it's distribution. ORAS introduced Mega Sableye and Mega Diancie, two very common and influential pokemon. Magic Bounce allows them to bounce back sticky web, as well as being able to defeat galvantula and shuckle, the two viable users of sticky web (although they both suck). Bisharp has always been a prominent threat with defiant, and sticky web teams give it a field day - switching in on sticky web just gives it a free +2, and it's lowered speed doesn't even matter since all bisharp has to do is spam sucker punch and something dies. Nowadays sticky web is considered rather gimmicky, and even if it got better distribution, it wouldn't really matter unless the mon that got it could somehow beat sableye / diancie.
That's why the spider should have been fairy/poision... But no point in talking about hypothetical pkmn.
SketchUp
Don't let your memes be dreams
Giving this a mention because this pokemon will be relevant for [at least] the next two weeks because of the suspect test.
Giratina-O basically gives you a defogger and a spinblocker in one teamslot. Because of Giratina's good bulk it can easily take on most spinners except for LO Analytic Starmie predicting the switchin and going for Ice Beam (which even can be solved because after Stealth Rock + Life Orb max attack shadow sneak has a 50% chance to KO)
As a defogger Giratina finds many opportunities to switch in and safely remove all hazards on the field. It's also one of the very few defoggers who beat both Bisharp and Thundurus as Defiant users, which makes it so easy to defog at any point in the match. This said, it may be needed to use a move that helps beating Bisharp: Aura Sphere and Will-O-Wisp are the most obvious choices here. Rest could also be a good option because you have to switch in a lot and HP Ice from Thundurus can do a lot or else.
I have tried Giratina out both as a spinblocker as a defog user but I am not entirely sure what EV Spread + Moveset is the best. At the moment I like to use Defog / Will-O-Wisp / Rest / Shadow Ball as you can easily defog against almost the entire metagame. I haven't tried out Giratina explicit as a spinblocker, though I used it on a hazard stacking team. A defensive set with Dragon Tail or Roar works because you can keep your hazards on against spinners and phaze everything away while an offensive set gets rid of LO Starmie which is the only spinner that can beat Giratina 1v1.
Also, Giratina's typing makes him very good partners with several steel types. Klefki resists 4 weaknesses of Giratina while Giratina is immune to ground and resist fire, while Klefki can lay Spikes which works on teams with Roar/DTail Giratina or spam Thunder Wave which is excellent on teams with WispHex Giratina. Ferrothorn is a similar case whereas their defensive synergy is very good and Ferrothorn can lay both Stealth Rock and Spikes, as well spread status for the WispHex / TWaveHex sets. Bisharp also resists 4/5 weaknesses of Giratina while they make up a pretty good core because Giratina blocks Rapid Spin and Bisharp blocks Defog + pursuit traps Lati@s and Starmie, so Giratina doesn't have to run Shadow Sneak.
Um... did you see the suspect thread as of like 4 hours ago?
Giving this a mention because this pokemon will be relevant for [at least] the next two weeks because of the suspect test.
Giratina-O basically gives you a defogger and a spinblocker in one teamslot. Because of Giratina's good bulk it can easily take on most spinners except for LO Analytic Starmie predicting the switchin and going for Ice Beam (which even can be solved because after Stealth Rock + Life Orb max attack shadow sneak has a 50% chance to KO)
As a defogger Giratina finds many opportunities to switch in and safely remove all hazards on the field. It's also one of the very few defoggers who beat both Bisharp and Thundurus as Defiant users, which makes it so easy to defog at any point in the match. This said, it may be needed to use a move that helps beating Bisharp: Aura Sphere and Will-O-Wisp are the most obvious choices here. Rest could also be a good option because you have to switch in a lot and HP Ice from Thundurus can do a lot or else.
I have tried Giratina out both as a spinblocker as a defog user but I am not entirely sure what EV Spread + Moveset is the best. At the moment I like to use Defog / Will-O-Wisp / Rest / Shadow Ball as you can easily defog against almost the entire metagame. I haven't tried out Giratina explicit as a spinblocker, though I used it on a hazard stacking team. A defensive set with Dragon Tail or Roar works because you can keep your hazards on against spinners and phaze everything away while an offensive set gets rid of LO Starmie which is the only spinner that can beat Giratina 1v1.
Also, Giratina's typing makes him very good partners with several steel types. Klefki resists 4 weaknesses of Giratina while Giratina is immune to ground and resist fire, while Klefki can lay Spikes which works on teams with Roar/DTail Giratina or spam Thunder Wave which is excellent on teams with WispHex Giratina. Ferrothorn is a similar case whereas their defensive synergy is very good and Ferrothorn can lay both Stealth Rock and Spikes, as well spread status for the WispHex / TWaveHex sets. Bisharp also resists 4/5 weaknesses of Giratina while they make up a pretty good core because Giratina blocks Rapid Spin and Bisharp blocks Defog + pursuit traps Lati@s and Starmie, so Giratina doesn't have to run Shadow Sneak.
SketchUp
Don't let your memes be dreams
I'm pretty sure if sticky web had good distribution, at least one poke that got it could beat at least one of those two. That aside, the main issue with webs it having hard Bish and Serp checks. Webs is kinda forced to use a good amount of teamslots to beat the pokes that give it trouble, leaving little space for abusers, who you have alot of choice for.
Cmon GF, make a mold breaker webs user plz.
Some guy on the IRC channel has been very persistent on asking about a metagame without the presence of SR lately. Though annoying, it rekindled my curiosity regarding the effect of SR on the current metagame. What do you guys think? Furthermore, how would some pokemons (i.e. volcarona and dragonite) fair in the metagame without SR?
By the way, I am by no means promoting the idea of SR suspect testing.
By the way, I am by no means promoting the idea of SR suspect testing.
Personally, I think it's a bad idea. Stuff like Volc may improve, but you end up with already prominent threats like the Zards becoming broken (or close to it), Sash spam becoming extremely good (which is not a good thing), and the struggling playstyle of stall becoming even worse. Also, many SR leads and spinners lose alot of viability. It's a differenr meta, and I'd argue a worse one. If we had a OU (No hazards) ladder, I would probably try it, but it would seem very similar to low ladder, where sashes and SRless teams are everywhere.
There's actually been a lot of talk been a lot of talk about Stealth Rock over the years. There was even a no Stealth Rock ladder a few years ago to see the effects of it. The "pro-ban" side usually argues something along the lines that Rocks are overcentralizing in terms of teamslots required (ie you can teambuild without having to use setter and remover), that it limits a fundamental aspect of pokemon (that it is a tax on switching) and that Rocks limit certain groups of pokemon too much. The "anti-ban" side usually argues that Rocks are such an ingrained part of the metagame and that their removal could lead to certain aspects could become worse (Sash spam, Volc, Talon, Zards).
However, you have to look further beyond simple what becomes better and worse off the bat (ie further meta development). For example, without Rocks Moltres becomes a legitimate answer to Char-Y and Volc, Aerodactyl can check a metric ton of the "broken" stuff. Stall doesn't become worse either, as it is not restricted to carrying certain hazard removing stall mons (example Tetacruel or Defog Skarm) and can thus pick from a wider pool that allows it to cover more threats. This post by LonelyNess is probably the best anti-ban argument I've seen and it really shows some of the deeper implications of an SR ban, especially the whole bit about certain mons becoming less threatening due to the elimination of "x% chance to 2hko after Rocks" scenarios leading to more checks to a lot of mons.
Longer discussions in order of recency:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/stealth-rock-discussion-thread.3520266/
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/a-debating-thread-stealth-rocks.3482943/
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/stealth-rock-discussion.102453/
However, you have to look further beyond simple what becomes better and worse off the bat (ie further meta development). For example, without Rocks Moltres becomes a legitimate answer to Char-Y and Volc, Aerodactyl can check a metric ton of the "broken" stuff. Stall doesn't become worse either, as it is not restricted to carrying certain hazard removing stall mons (example Tetacruel or Defog Skarm) and can thus pick from a wider pool that allows it to cover more threats. This post by LonelyNess is probably the best anti-ban argument I've seen and it really shows some of the deeper implications of an SR ban, especially the whole bit about certain mons becoming less threatening due to the elimination of "x% chance to 2hko after Rocks" scenarios leading to more checks to a lot of mons.
Longer discussions in order of recency:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/stealth-rock-discussion-thread.3520266/
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/a-debating-thread-stealth-rocks.3482943/
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/stealth-rock-discussion.102453/
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I agree with the poster above that SR suspect testing would be a horrible idea due to how imbalanced I assume the SR-less metagame will be. We tried the SR-less meta last gen. If we repeat the process for this gen, I predict a far more imbalanced and horrendously overcentralized metagame. There are pokemons like m-pinsir and zardX and zardY that would be super dominant. But I think dragonite would be by far the most buffed mon. Its DDance set, persoanlly with some bulk investment, would be overly dominant...without the need to use up a mega slot. Mutiscale Dragonite would be buffed so much…to a point of being beyond annoying. This is, of course, an opinion of mine.
I understand one of the biggest concern by the pro-ban side is "x will be broken without SR." And I see it as a legitimate concern. But how big, in a rough estimate, is the list of most-likely broken pokemons without SR? Are the likes of volcaona and dragonite still potentially broken? Will these two (or others) be strengthened so much that they really bcome overpowering?
We really shouldn't discuss this too much further, but two things. First, broken doesn't check broken. If we deem Rocks to be broken, then we ban that and everything else that becomes broken as a result. Second, as we learned from the Aegi ban, fear of other mons becoming broken as a result of a ban usually isn't legitimate. We didn't suspect/ban Medi, Hera or Gard after Aegi got banned now did we?
We really shouldn't focus on how annoying/chaotic the metagame will be if we ban x. In the case of SR, if it's deemed to be broken, then it's broken and we ban it. As for dragonite and volcarona, they will imho obviously be broken or at least borderline broken. Neither requires mega stones, freeing up a space for mega on your team while being "perfect" sweepers. Drgonite, especially, would have have high firepower while having amazing bulk when combined with multiscale. I'd expect SR-less gen 6 meta to be like SR-less gen 5 (when we last tested it about a year or so ago). Dragonite would be on like 3/4 of all teams. Anyways, that was the last comment I will make on this matter since I'd rather not discuss anything that has to do with suspect testing in this thread anymore.
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I don't see how you can call SR 'broken'. You only need to devote a maximum 1 teamslot to defend against it, and offensive teams can forgo this if they don't have an SR weak mon and function fine. Also, alot of hazard removers, such as Skarm and the Latis, are very splashable and would get used even without hazards. You have to prepare for rocks about as much as you do for most A+ ranks in the viability thread, which doesn't make them broken, just a part of the meta.
This will also be the last comment along those lines from me, this is not an SR suspect thread, just a hazard discussion thread.
This will also be the last comment along those lines from me, this is not an SR suspect thread, just a hazard discussion thread.
The above discussion brought a tear to my eye.
A suspect discussion which was kept with maturity, respect and sensibility throughout. Once in a lifetime event right here.
So with the recent rise of Tankchomp, would you guys say many other rocks setters pale in comparison and have dropped in viability and usability? I've been wondering about using Tankchomp for a little while now and was wondering about it's pros and cons as a rocks setter as well as how it stacks up against other setters.
A suspect discussion which was kept with maturity, respect and sensibility throughout. Once in a lifetime event right here.
So with the recent rise of Tankchomp, would you guys say many other rocks setters pale in comparison and have dropped in viability and usability? I've been wondering about using Tankchomp for a little while now and was wondering about it's pros and cons as a rocks setter as well as how it stacks up against other setters.
SketchUp
Don't let your memes be dreams
Little reminder: http://snag.gy/kMMPi.jpg
Also, if anyone thinks the first post lacks some stuff feel free to mention it and I will change it. If there is high demand I can also add a little compendium though I don't thinkt that's necessary.
Tankchomp is great because it can force many pokemon like Metagross (without Ice Punch) out and set rocks in the meantime. Dragon Tail is also a big advantage over other setters as it can keep defoggers, spinners or opposing rock setters out the field. In my opinion Garchomp is the best rocks setters as it can fit on both offensive and defensive teams with 2 good sets [tankchomp and lum sd chomp] while also having decent offensive capabilities.
Also, if anyone thinks the first post lacks some stuff feel free to mention it and I will change it. If there is high demand I can also add a little compendium though I don't thinkt that's necessary.
Is it just me who can't wait for Defog+Poison Heal Gliscor to become legal with the gen 4 remakes?
Anyway, it is impossible to deny the profound effect that entry hazards have had on the metagame. I am going to do a sort of "brief history" of them because I think it'd be rather fun to type :)
In generation 1, the prospect of entry hazards had not been introduced. While it was most likely speculated by older, more competitive players of Pokemon Red/Blue/Yellow, it was merely something which you could only dream of laying down on the opponent's side of the field. However, in generation 2, the Forretress line was introduced for what I suspect was for the sole purpose of showing off the new move Spikes - a move which can be placed on the opponent's side of the field to deal a set amount of damage to grounded Pokemon on switch in - with said pokemon not only having the ability to lay its own spikes, but also to remove them from its own side. While it was never quite on the same level as other spikes and Rapid Spin users for each individual role, it still saw use on some teams due to being the only pokemon with access to both. GSC OU was a very bulky, long-winded metagame due to the fact that everything ran rest, toxic got reset to regular poison when a toxic'd pokemon was switched out and Leech Seed was significantly worse than it is now. This gave Spikes a very solid niche in being the most reliable way of dealing chip damage to your opponent, with it working like a typeless Stealth Rock which didn't hit Flying-types. Therefore, matches would often come down to the one who was able to control Spikes the best; if you could remove the hazards and the setter, you stood a far better chance than someone who couldn't.
However, the move received a change in generation 3: it could now be layed up to three times, with 1 layer dealing 12.5% of their max HP, 2 layers dealing 16.67% and 3 layers dealing a whopping 25 to your opponent. This meant that controlling them was far more important than in generation 2, with the constant threat of the layers building up putting heavy pressure on you to remove them as quickly as possible. As a result of this, hazard stacking hyper offense was born, with a team consisting of a suicide Spikes lead, a spinblocker (i.e. Gengar), a spinner (usually Starmie) and three other heavily offensive Pokemon. ADV OU is generally considered to be the most balanced metagame, and this is because a lot of the more powerful pokemon were held back by their STAB not matching with their stronger offensive stat, making Normal-type coverage very common in the metagame. However, I'm not here to talk about the common types in ADV, but about the history of entry hazards. Alongside spikes stacking hyper offense, Spikes in conjunction with the new mechanics for Toxic and a substantial reduction in the use of Rest resulted in full stall becoming significantly more effective than in GSC. Stall teams would typically carry either Forretress or Skarmory to lay hazards, a remover such as Forretress or Claydol and a number of pokemon capable of stalling. There's not that much I'm willing to say about ADV, so lets just move into gen 4.
The release of Pokémon Diamond and Pearl brought what were argubly two of the most influential things ever to grace OU without getting banned: Stealth Rock and Heatran. With Heatran being the most common Pokemon in the metagame, it was already obvious that generation four meant business. However, it could also learn Stealth Rock: a move which singlehandedly shaped the viability of a huge number of Pokemon. Stealth Rock is a move which can only be layed down once and deals damage dependent on the type effectiveness of Rock on the Pokemon which has to suffer it - ranging from 3.125% for a 4x resistance such as Lucario to 50% for a pokemon 4x weak to it such as Charizard. With various of the previous Spikes getting the move, it very quickly became overshadowed on the vast majority of teams simply due to how much better Stealth Rock was most of the time, and its influence really showed. With things like Charizard - which had seen use on select teams in previous generations - dropping off of the viability rankings altogether and pokemon which could set, remove and prevent its removal raining supreme. While there were some... debatable Pokemon which were OU by usage due to the move (*cough* Dusknoir *cough*), it brought a new level of strategy that was never seen to the same degree when you could only use Spikes, and it resulted in a significant drop in the viability of Flying-types such as Staraptor (forever BL) due to them no longer being immune to the only entry hazard - instead taking 25% on switch-in (outside of a few exceptions such as Gliscor). However, Stealth Rock wasn't the only new move on the block, with Toxic Spikes also being introduced in the same generation. This move would poison or toxic poison a pokemon on switch in, depending on whether 1 or 2 layers were present - and it, like Spikes, was avoided by Flying-types. In addition, it was absorbed by poison-types and Steel-types were not poisoned due to their immunity to said status. This move never made much of a splash in the metagame due to poor distribution and an effect which was decent at best. However, it wasn't completely unused. With various Pokemon including Forretress - god of all hazards - getting the move, it was used on teams which struggled v.s. stall and balance for its niche of being the only way to reliably toxic poison Celebi and Blissey due to Natural Cure, and it was often a win-con in such matchups as a result. There really isn't much else to say about it really, so on to generation 5!
Not much changed regarding entry hazards in generation 5 aside from it being the first instance of a Pokemon that was both OU by usage that didn't suck ass which was 4x weak to Stealth Rock in Volcarona. There were also a few more Pokemon which could spinblock introduced - most notably Jellicent - and, with the release of BW2, more Stealth Rock users. However, arguably the biggest change regarding hazards was the introduction of Magic Bounce. While it was limited to two less-than adequate users in Xatu and Espeon, the latter managed to carve itself a niche in the metagame. While it was small, it was what ultimately got the ball rolling regarding Baton Pass' viability as a strategy. Espeon was the first Pokemon on Baton Pass teams which could block any of Taunt or Whirlwind. However, the impact which I brought the ability up for was its effect on the way you had to play entry hazards. Magic Bounce was capable of cockblocking the use of any entry hazards when the Magic Bouncer was on the field, and it made it amazing support for Pokemon such as Volcarona, which could take advantage of your side being protected by hazards to, y'know, not take 50% from Stealth Rock. However, it did require prediction, so there isn't much else that I can say regarding it. Its effect wasn't huge, but it saw use nonetheless.
The release of Pokemon X and Y resulted in three things regarding entry hazards. The first was what was simultaneously the most overhyped move in the history of overhyped moves: Sticky Web. In the period which I dub the "oh mah gawd new stuff must hype" period, Sticky Web ran rampant in OU. There was lots of speculation about how it would obliterate the viability of hyper offense and how it was the new best entry hazard. However, neither of these materialised. This is primarily due to Sticky Web's atrocious distribution, with the only viable user being the all-powerful Shucklewhich OHKO's the entire team just by existing, but people realised that you shouldn't fuckle with Shuckle due to Sticky Web not being what it was cracked up to be due to all of its setters being taunt bait, suicide leads or both. This meant it was hard to set repeatedly throughout the match and relied on a team using up two of its teamslots for a spinblocker and Bisharp in order to stand any chance of keeping them on the field. However, the main impact it had was seen in early RU, with Shuckle being banned due to Sticky Web being broken in a metagame with Druddigon (plz ban Molk) and Shuckle being the only thing that could set it repeatedly due to its bulk. What was by far the biggest news regarding entry hazards was born with the buffing of Defog: a move which, as of generation 6, has the ability to remove entry hazards from both sides of the field which can't be blocked by anything other than Taunt. This was the biggest downfall of Sticky Web, and it is a big contributing factor to the viability of Talonflame and Charizard. It also brought along big changes in the makeup of teams, such as Bisharp becoming one of OU's top dogs due to a large number of favorable changes (Steel-type nerf, Knock Off buff and Defiant acting as a Defog deterrent). Speaking of Bisharp, Defiant and Competitive are now considered to be two of the best abilities in the game due to their utility of deterring Defog. While Competitive never saw any serious use outside of Milotic's short time in RU (please for god sake drop -_-), Defiant is now staple in all of OU, RU, PU, LC and, to a lesser extent, NU due to good users being present in all of said tiers and Defog being commonplace. It also directly affected the viability of what is considered to be one of the most threatening pokemon of BW2: Specs Latios. The change to the move singlehandedly blew Specs Latios' viability away due to it benefitting heavily from having Defog. anyway, I'm bored of talking defog, so I will move on. The final change to hazards of XY occurred in mid XY when the full Baton Pass strategy was banned. The only viable Magic Bounce user (Espeon) essentially became inviable with the death of full Baton Pass, and it resulted in its drop to obscurity. However, just when we thought that Magic Bounce was dead in the water, we were graced with the pleasant surprise that ORAS brought: two brand-spanking new mega evolutions. When they were were introduced into the metagame they revived Magic Bounce - finally giving the ability two much-deserved good users in Mega Sableye and Mega Diancie. These Pokemon have had a profound effect on the way that entry hazards are played. It also gave a new lease of life to something which is currently being talked about in the viability rankings: Shedinja. Mega Sableye was the sole contributing factor to anyone even bothering to put the effort into trying out Shedinja, and I personally can't wait for the main ladder to return so that I can try out Shedinja stall (nvm its already back). Aside from this, Magic Bounce functions the same as before, except now in the hands of two capable users.
That was a brief history of entry hazards by me. I have probably missed a lot and messed a little info up with generation 3, but all in all I enjoyed writing that and hope that someone can be bothered to read this wall of text :)
Anyway, it is impossible to deny the profound effect that entry hazards have had on the metagame. I am going to do a sort of "brief history" of them because I think it'd be rather fun to type :)
In generation 1, the prospect of entry hazards had not been introduced. While it was most likely speculated by older, more competitive players of Pokemon Red/Blue/Yellow, it was merely something which you could only dream of laying down on the opponent's side of the field. However, in generation 2, the Forretress line was introduced for what I suspect was for the sole purpose of showing off the new move Spikes - a move which can be placed on the opponent's side of the field to deal a set amount of damage to grounded Pokemon on switch in - with said pokemon not only having the ability to lay its own spikes, but also to remove them from its own side. While it was never quite on the same level as other spikes and Rapid Spin users for each individual role, it still saw use on some teams due to being the only pokemon with access to both. GSC OU was a very bulky, long-winded metagame due to the fact that everything ran rest, toxic got reset to regular poison when a toxic'd pokemon was switched out and Leech Seed was significantly worse than it is now. This gave Spikes a very solid niche in being the most reliable way of dealing chip damage to your opponent, with it working like a typeless Stealth Rock which didn't hit Flying-types. Therefore, matches would often come down to the one who was able to control Spikes the best; if you could remove the hazards and the setter, you stood a far better chance than someone who couldn't.
However, the move received a change in generation 3: it could now be layed up to three times, with 1 layer dealing 12.5% of their max HP, 2 layers dealing 16.67% and 3 layers dealing a whopping 25 to your opponent. This meant that controlling them was far more important than in generation 2, with the constant threat of the layers building up putting heavy pressure on you to remove them as quickly as possible. As a result of this, hazard stacking hyper offense was born, with a team consisting of a suicide Spikes lead, a spinblocker (i.e. Gengar), a spinner (usually Starmie) and three other heavily offensive Pokemon. ADV OU is generally considered to be the most balanced metagame, and this is because a lot of the more powerful pokemon were held back by their STAB not matching with their stronger offensive stat, making Normal-type coverage very common in the metagame. However, I'm not here to talk about the common types in ADV, but about the history of entry hazards. Alongside spikes stacking hyper offense, Spikes in conjunction with the new mechanics for Toxic and a substantial reduction in the use of Rest resulted in full stall becoming significantly more effective than in GSC. Stall teams would typically carry either Forretress or Skarmory to lay hazards, a remover such as Forretress or Claydol and a number of pokemon capable of stalling. There's not that much I'm willing to say about ADV, so lets just move into gen 4.
The release of Pokémon Diamond and Pearl brought what were argubly two of the most influential things ever to grace OU without getting banned: Stealth Rock and Heatran. With Heatran being the most common Pokemon in the metagame, it was already obvious that generation four meant business. However, it could also learn Stealth Rock: a move which singlehandedly shaped the viability of a huge number of Pokemon. Stealth Rock is a move which can only be layed down once and deals damage dependent on the type effectiveness of Rock on the Pokemon which has to suffer it - ranging from 3.125% for a 4x resistance such as Lucario to 50% for a pokemon 4x weak to it such as Charizard. With various of the previous Spikes getting the move, it very quickly became overshadowed on the vast majority of teams simply due to how much better Stealth Rock was most of the time, and its influence really showed. With things like Charizard - which had seen use on select teams in previous generations - dropping off of the viability rankings altogether and pokemon which could set, remove and prevent its removal raining supreme. While there were some... debatable Pokemon which were OU by usage due to the move (*cough* Dusknoir *cough*), it brought a new level of strategy that was never seen to the same degree when you could only use Spikes, and it resulted in a significant drop in the viability of Flying-types such as Staraptor (forever BL) due to them no longer being immune to the only entry hazard - instead taking 25% on switch-in (outside of a few exceptions such as Gliscor). However, Stealth Rock wasn't the only new move on the block, with Toxic Spikes also being introduced in the same generation. This move would poison or toxic poison a pokemon on switch in, depending on whether 1 or 2 layers were present - and it, like Spikes, was avoided by Flying-types. In addition, it was absorbed by poison-types and Steel-types were not poisoned due to their immunity to said status. This move never made much of a splash in the metagame due to poor distribution and an effect which was decent at best. However, it wasn't completely unused. With various Pokemon including Forretress - god of all hazards - getting the move, it was used on teams which struggled v.s. stall and balance for its niche of being the only way to reliably toxic poison Celebi and Blissey due to Natural Cure, and it was often a win-con in such matchups as a result. There really isn't much else to say about it really, so on to generation 5!
Not much changed regarding entry hazards in generation 5 aside from it being the first instance of a Pokemon that was both OU by usage that didn't suck ass which was 4x weak to Stealth Rock in Volcarona. There were also a few more Pokemon which could spinblock introduced - most notably Jellicent - and, with the release of BW2, more Stealth Rock users. However, arguably the biggest change regarding hazards was the introduction of Magic Bounce. While it was limited to two less-than adequate users in Xatu and Espeon, the latter managed to carve itself a niche in the metagame. While it was small, it was what ultimately got the ball rolling regarding Baton Pass' viability as a strategy. Espeon was the first Pokemon on Baton Pass teams which could block any of Taunt or Whirlwind. However, the impact which I brought the ability up for was its effect on the way you had to play entry hazards. Magic Bounce was capable of cockblocking the use of any entry hazards when the Magic Bouncer was on the field, and it made it amazing support for Pokemon such as Volcarona, which could take advantage of your side being protected by hazards to, y'know, not take 50% from Stealth Rock. However, it did require prediction, so there isn't much else that I can say regarding it. Its effect wasn't huge, but it saw use nonetheless.
The release of Pokemon X and Y resulted in three things regarding entry hazards. The first was what was simultaneously the most overhyped move in the history of overhyped moves: Sticky Web. In the period which I dub the "oh mah gawd new stuff must hype" period, Sticky Web ran rampant in OU. There was lots of speculation about how it would obliterate the viability of hyper offense and how it was the new best entry hazard. However, neither of these materialised. This is primarily due to Sticky Web's atrocious distribution, with the only viable user being the all-powerful Shuckle
That was a brief history of entry hazards by me. I have probably missed a lot and messed a little info up with generation 3, but all in all I enjoyed writing that and hope that someone can be bothered to read this wall of text :)
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The move Baton Pass was never banned, you were just limited to 3 (later 1) users. Espeon was still viable after the first iteration of the ban, and still is if only because GeoPass still exists. :/
I meant the strategy of full baton pass. Will make it clearer though. Thanks :)
SketchUp
Don't let your memes be dreams
Added a small list of viable rockers, spike setters, defoggers, spinners and suicide leads. If you think I missed something (not sure if Smeargle should be added as suicide lead) let me know and I'll change it. Also thanks to Tentacruel<3 for giving some suggestions for the list.
gamer boy you got the mechanics of Spikes completely wrong. Not all the layers add the same amount of damage. The first layer adds 12.5%, the second layer adds 4.16%, and the third layer adds 8.33%
I am surprised that the OP did not mention another aspect of entry hazard control: using moves that hit common setters supereffectively. For example the two most common Spikers in the metagame, Ferrothorn and Skarmory, are both weak to Fire, especially special ones. So if you build a sand team that is weak to spikes, it is a good idea to throw Fire Blast on Tyranitar so Ferro and Skarm don't have the oppurtunity to set up Spikes.
I think anti-leads are also heavily downplayed. If you have a 4x SR weak poke like Talonflame, to really have a comprehensive plan to keep SR off the field you can't just throw Defog Lati@s with it. Not letting your opponent getting Rock's off early game gives you more room to play with Talonflame. Fake Out+Ice Punch Mega-Loppuny can beat almost an SR lead out there because Fake Out break Sash+its supereffective coverage against Rock / Ground / Steel types (the pokemon with the most highest SR distribution)+its high speed to get 2HKO's.
edit: Also it should be mentioned that one layer of Toxic Spikes is a better option vs offensive teams because two layer Toxic Spikes damage (badly poisoned) will only exceed one layer toxic spikes damage (normal poison) if an opponent stays in for more than 3 turns.
I am surprised that the OP did not mention another aspect of entry hazard control: using moves that hit common setters supereffectively. For example the two most common Spikers in the metagame, Ferrothorn and Skarmory, are both weak to Fire, especially special ones. So if you build a sand team that is weak to spikes, it is a good idea to throw Fire Blast on Tyranitar so Ferro and Skarm don't have the oppurtunity to set up Spikes.
I think anti-leads are also heavily downplayed. If you have a 4x SR weak poke like Talonflame, to really have a comprehensive plan to keep SR off the field you can't just throw Defog Lati@s with it. Not letting your opponent getting Rock's off early game gives you more room to play with Talonflame. Fake Out+Ice Punch Mega-Loppuny can beat almost an SR lead out there because Fake Out break Sash+its supereffective coverage against Rock / Ground / Steel types (the pokemon with the most highest SR distribution)+its high speed to get 2HKO's.
edit: Also it should be mentioned that one layer of Toxic Spikes is a better option vs offensive teams because two layer Toxic Spikes damage (badly poisoned) will only exceed one layer toxic spikes damage (normal poison) if an opponent stays in for more than 3 turns.
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