Metagame np: Stage 6 - The Boys Are Back

[Tomahawk]

Nebuchadnezzar, the point of suspects is to remove unhealthy components of the metagame, and not all metas immediately suspect another mon the moment their current suspect ends. Between the ORAS Megas, ORAS tutors, the release of certain hidden abilities, and new (or old) comers to the meta, be it tiershift or quickdrops, NU has kind of been in a state of unrest and never really settled down, so the suspects are sort of urgent. There is really nothing wrong with suspecting mons in quick succession if the meta isn't currently in balance due to overpowered threats, or some elephants in the room just need to be rid of.

Tomahawk you forgot Gourgeist. Still, I don't think it is too practical for SD Gallade to carry Poison Jab (it's probably more suited for CB Gallades), nor is it fair to not list Colbur Psychic calcs; though that said, Gallade could do significant damage with +2 boosted Knock Offs against Colbur, or just +2 unboosted Knock Offs.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Gallade Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 367-434 (98.1 - 116%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

To be honest I feel like SD Gallade can use anything it wants, Swords Dance / Close Combat / Knock Off and the last slot is completely open. Use Zen Headbutt if you don't want to get stopped by Poison-types, use Shadow Sneak if you don't want to be stopped by Fletchinder. Are you using a team with something that really benefits the removal of Quagsire or Fairy-types? Use Leaf Blade or Poison Jab respectively. It has a lot of viable options for that last slot to be honest.

And I suppose, but I don't see Musharna or Uxie using Colbur, maybe that'll change though because of the prominence of Gallade and Sneasel. Here is a calc versus Mesprit:

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Gallade Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Colbur Berry Mesprit: 281-331 (93 - 109.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

[citro]

To me what really separates Gallade and Sneasel in terms of how difficult to deal with they are is their speed. Both of them have very few counters that can switch in repeatedly/are beaten by specific sets. Both are hard to switch in without taking a lot of damage due to poor defense/HP and few resistances.

However Sneasel can come in after any pokemon dies and fire off a banded attack which KOs just about any offensive pokemon after rocks or residual damage, which Gallade simply can't do due to its comparably bad speed. This list includes Lilligant, Scyther, Magmortar, Haunter, Electivire (after rocks/Wild Charge recoil), CM Xatu, Mesprit, CM Uxie, Rotom, Mismagius. Pokemon which die at around 70%-80% include Kangaskhan, Kabutops, Fletchinder, and some others I can't be bothered to list. Gallade cannot come in after you die on any of these because it is outsped by all of them. Obviously if they are not weak to Pursuit they can still switch out, but forcing a switch makes them eat hazards and a banded Knock Off, as well as the switched out pokemon taking hazard damage when it comes back, which is better than Gallade who does not force anything at all. Also I should mention that most of these pokemon can also revenge kill Gallade but not Sneasel.

Summing up I think Sneasel is much more problematic as it severely hinders offense unlike Gallade which only poses a problem to defense of which there are many other pokemon in the tier that do the same and it's kind of a characteristic of the tier (Tauros, Magmortar, Samurott, Aurorus, Zangoose)

 

[ryan]

citro is a god.

In my laddering for Magneton reqs, I was using SD Gallade, and I found that the few teams that were weak to it were either not good in general or really weak to Sawk as well. Most of these teams relied on Vileplume or another bulky Poison-type to check Sawk, and these things don't even beat Sawk because its Zen Headbutt 2HKOs literally all of them. In a lot of games, Fist Plate Sawk would have been just as good as if not better than Gallade. The only perks that Gallade had were its special bulk and Swords Dance, which I hardly ever clicked anyways because most teams pressured it well enough that it rarely got a chance to set up.

On paper, Gallade is really, really gross, but in practice, it has rarely been a problem for me or my opponents. As citro mentioned, a huge reason why Gallade isn't as great as it sounds is because it's so slow. That has been the primary factor keeping a lot of potentially broken Pokemon in check, including Sawk, Samurott, Magmortar, and Zangoose. These are all great Pokemon that hit absurdly hard right off the bat, but their Speed and other flaws hold them back a lot more in practice. In fact, I'd say that Magmortar and Zangoose are more broken than Gallade because they don't need to be at +2 to dismantle the tier, and Gallade definitely does.

Sneasel, on the other hand, hits crazy hard right off the bat and has only a handful of "counters," many of which still don't want to switch into a Knock Off (Gurdurr, Mawile, Carracosta, etc). Many of these "counters" are also super passive and give up free switches to lots of stuff, and they still don't keep Sneasel from Pursuit trapping other Pokemon, even ones that aren't just OHKO'd by it. And like ZoroDark said, its frailty matters a lot less when it has 115 Speed, which is nearly impossible to outrun without running Choice Scarf, which is kind of a shitty item in this meta because nothing has spammable STAB moves and balanced is far and away the most common playstyle.

I genuinely don't believe that Gallade is broken, but I'm willing to see it suspected. I just think Sneasel is a lot more pressing, like a lot of others in this thread.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

In fact, I'd say that Magmortar and Zangoose are just as broken as Gallade because they don't need to be at +2 to dismantle the tier, and Gallade definitely doesn't.

Fixed that for you.

Gallade is to Balanced what Sneasel is to Offense. You 2HKO almost the whole tier and the few mons that you don't like Pelipper/Granbull/Togetic get crippled by Knock Off. I believe that's the main issue with Gallade. Sawk does the same thing, but it can be checked by Psychic/Poison-types or played around because it's choiced more often than not. And Sawk has always been borderline broken in NU just because Fighting is that powerful in a tier where the only common enough resists are almost exclusively Psychic and those strongly dislike Knock Off. It's only because of those few exploitable weaknesses that it managed to stay in the tier. The only true weakness that Gallade has is its below average speed. That's not enough to keep this mon in the tier.

Sneasel is pretty much the same story. Barring a select group of mons (a larger group than in Gallade's case though) it 2HKO's everything with CB Knock Off because just like Fighting, Dark is really powerful offensively and Knock Off is just icing on the cake. Pursuit-trapping is whatever. It's a thing and you should be aware of it when you decide to use Psychic/Ghost types. If it makes your team weak to Sawk or Gallade afterwards then it's a Sawk/Gallade problem, not the other way around.

 

[Mistrals]

Hide

Easy sweep, easy tank
That's just how you play, oh
Kill, kill, kill it all
But you never faint
Should've known you were broken
From the first win
Had a Swords Dance easy
Why was it easy?

Hoped you were balanced
But 6-0ed me last match
6-0ed me last match, you did
Be balanced in NU is all I ever asked
But you don't understand is...

I'd catch a Gallade like you (yeah, yeah, yeah)
Tank some +2 Leaf Blades from you (yeah, yeah, yeah)
I'd even play vs HJAD rain for you (yeah, yeah, yeah)
You know I'd lose to Smash Pass for you (yeah, yeah, yeah)
Oh, I would go free KFC
Take a Bullet Punch through my knee
Yeah, would get haxed for you, baby
But you won't be balanced

lol I have too much time on my hands..


anyways instead of just making a wasted post, I'll talk a bit.
Gallade is really damn good. In fact, I do believe it may be too good, but I'd need to mess around with it and play vs it before really making a verdict there. That being said, it's speed tier is obviously the thing that hold it back from just being incredibly ridiculous, as 80 allows a lot of offensive mons to outpace or revenge it.(plus it's only priority is shadow sneak, which while not being pathetic with like sd isn't that powerful) I've seen the comparison to Pangoro be made, and while I think Pangoro destroyed bulkier teams a lot more terrifyingly than Gallade does, I think Gallade's higher speed tier and versatility might just be enough coupled with the fact that it's really hard to actually switch into an SD set(imo it's best set). [People overhyped this thing a little bit though imo.]

That being said, the argument for Sneasel seems very fair, in a vice versa sense. It's got bulky pokemon that manage to at least check it fairly solidly(low kick might eat through some of those though)but offensively it's incredibly speed tier and stab knock off, as well as pursuit 50/50s can make it hell to play against for more offensive teams(can't banded even beat fletch with ice shard lol). Ice typing is also amazing offensively for obvious reasons. A suspect for Sneasel seems very fair, at the very least to look into this farther, however I feel like if the meta brings more bulkier/slower teams into play Gallade will become a lot more unhealthy than before.(in fact, it took us getting forced into a very offensive metagame for the idea of a Sneasel suspect coming up lol)

Are either of them broken? idk, that's the point of a suspect ladder, to give us more play experience then we'd ever want against people using these pokemon.(well that and the self-torture of losing 10 games to hax vs people who think Gurdurr is op and/or are using Armaldo)

oh also obligatory fuck smashpass

tl;dr I'd be fine with both seeing suspects on both of these at some point, suspects help to have a healthy tier, and both have heavy advantages against certain teams and playstyles though I feel the former of the two's will become more obvious as time goes on.

 

[Teddeh]

I'm just going to point out that sneasel + any fighting type / mon that wants to get rid of psychics and ghosts has been extremely common, so it's not a thing that's just come around because of gallade. E.g sneasel + gurdurr / sawk / malamar.

From personal experience, I think people are exaggerating a tonne here. Sneasel is only as good as team mate support, whilst yes having an amazing speed tier is fine and dandy, it's literally just going to sit there until the opposing teams checks / counters to sneasel are weakened to the point where it can potentially sweep whilst sneasel has a limited number of switch ins due to hazards. Whilst also looking at the mons that counter sneasel (poliwrath, mawile, gurdurr, hariyama, carracosta), they're not exactly bad pokemon whatsoever and are amazing at the jobs that they do. Not to mention that the most common sneasel set is a choice banded set, it allows for easy setup for several pokemon if you lock yourself into the wrong move i.e pursuit / icicle crash if they have a barbaracle or shell smasher.
I think sneasel is an amazing team-mate for offense but also a terrible one at times. I actually think that having sneasel on teams promotes the idea of more competitive play since you have to think a lot more when using this pokemon since it has a high risk - high reward in the way it works. It's not like typhlosion where it can sit there and spam eruptions or have amazing bulk + no switch ins in camerupt (2 previously banned "broken" pokemon), it promotes the idea of competitive play and it actually takes skill to use effectively. All of its sets have draw backs; life orb with recoil + hazard weakness, banded being locked into something which means ez setup or eviolite which is piss poor damage output.
Now I can see why people would want a suspect but i honestly disagree with banning sneasel entirely and I think it is actually healthy in ways for our metagame to have a pokemon like this that creates and develops more competitive play, more thought into the use of it whilst also being a top tier threat.

As for Gallade; I think it's an amazing pokemon, it's very easy to use except when you miss and get paralyzed but I don't think it's unbeatable. I think it's extremely similar to magmortar in how it works, except it has more checks.
In general for this pokemon; I think there was so much hype and fear that it would tear our tier apart before anyone actually used it that it made everyone think it was broken just by how it looks on paper rather than using it. This actually upsets me because people are too closed minded to think of solutions to pokemon that are new to a tier, instead they just want to ban it. This applies to anyone who asked for a quickban -_-. As we have actually found out, it's very similar to magmortar, samurott, zangoose, extremely similar to sawk except sawk has better abilities and speed and in general it's just a good wallbreaker. Is it too good? maybe. I'd support a gallade suspect, but I think it needs more time in this tier.

tl;dr sneasel is far from broken, i think it's healthy for the meta. people who wanted a quick ban on gallade shame on you, suspect gallade, not sneasel.

 

[Syncrasy]

I don't want to see sneasel leave the tier as i feel like its pretty healthy in NU atm, its a nice to check to psychics such as musharna and xatu and provides Nu with a strong fast attacker. Sneasel is aslo easily checked by most priority in the tier, which HO in NU should at least have on user, like (bullet punch+fake-out) on hariyama which also resist both of sneasel's stabs if running thick fat, mach punch from gurdurr, ect.Scarf users also check sneasel quite well as scarf sneasel is very mediocre,hazard also wear down sneasel quite easily. And most forms of balance/stall have answers to sneasel such as regirock,poliwrath, and mawile.NU imo has alot more threatening mons in the meta like gallade/Sawk which I honestly feel have more limited answers too than sneasel.

 

[Deej Dy]

Hey, I hope it's possible we start the suspect or ban of Gallade soon because at the moment the metagame is probably the worst its been since Helio+Steelix. Just impossible to build balance when Gallade is combined with Fast mons like Tauros and Sneasel and then the other omnipresent threats of Lilligant, CM Uxie/Mushy/Xatu, Klingklang, Mega-Audino, Archeops, CB Sawk, Fletchinder, Malamar, Dual Dance Rhydon, Scyther, Liepard, Gurdurr all need to be accounted for.

Basically I'm fed up with the meta and teambuilding feels like a waste of time. I can't account for all the threats and the win is completely match-up related and not reliant on skill because of all the threats. Maybe I'm alone with these feelings, and that's fine if you guys want to keep it how it is, but I figured I'd share my frusterations. To be honest, to me even the recently tumultuous tier of UU is more feasbile and fun to build in at the moment.

TLDR: RIP

 

[Teddeh]

After giving it all a tonne of experience, especially since NUgget bridge, i've played a clusterfuck of gallade teams. It's extremely hard to answer, I'd fully support a suspect or even a straight ban. I think it's quite clear it's too good for the tier. I'm usually the guy to reason as to why it should stay but no, it needs to go.

 

[QueenOfLuvdiscs]

This meta is aids. Literal aids. Most teams are looking exactly the same because that's how centralizing Gallade and Sneasel are atm. Sure, it makes teambuilding ez as shit when you only need to pick 3 mons out of 6; the first 3 being Sneasel, T-wave U-turn Xatu and some Lanturn set which doesn't even matter as long as it has Volt Switch. Actually, you can then throw on a Baton Pass SR Mawile to keep up the momentum as well as possibly a Weezing to help aid your defensive core from not being shat on by ground type attacks, and then finally, just use something that can take a hit from Gallade, or even just outspeed it.

Wait, that was 5 mons I named, damn, this tier sure is fun.

But seriously, past all the sarcasm, those 2 need to go asap.

 

[ryan]

Just so everybody is aware, we are going to be holding another suspect sometime soon. It hasn't even been a week since Magneton has been banned, so we're still taking a bit of time to play the metagame and figure out the best course of action for the tier. However, the council is talking over all of our options, and we're making sure everyone is on the same page before we move forward. I actually kind of like this metagame, but I know most people don't so it's important that we take some time before rushing into another suspect and potentially making the wrong decision. Thank you all for your patience!

 

[DaSpoofy]

Can't you have a double suspect or does that get too complex with the voting?

 

[shiloh]

Can't you have a double suspect or does that get too complex with the voting?

We have had double suspects in the past, Typhlosion and Mega-Camerupt being the most recent one. The problem right now is we just had the suspect with Magneton, so the the meta needs to settle down a bit more before we can actually declare things broken enough to suspect.

 

[Steakburgers]

All due respect, just a question i'd like to ask
What exactly does the meta need to settle from? I think its pretty settled. No more stunfisks, sneasel saw to that, most things that looked like a counter to mag are still being used (lanturn) or arent being used at all
So i don't get the settling thing, Gallade was here before magneton got banned, and banded sneasel was being used beforehand as well
Its not as if these mons just got broken recently

 

[Rapture]

Yeah to be honest I think the sooner we suspect Sneasel the better. Personally, I don't consider it to be that broken by itself, but like other people have already said, the amount of strain it puts on team building in addition with every other threat in the tier makes it the most worthy pokemon deserving of a suspect test imo. Gallade on the other hand I definitely don't consider broken at the moment. Even if the way it managed to drop to NU is a bit iffy, I don't see a way any well built team is getting flat out swept by it.

 

[Aasgier]

Just run something with a hard-hitting priority moves that outspeeds Sneasel's Ice Shard. Pikachu's Extremespeed certainly does, and comes from 458 attack, which is easily 2HKO'ing most offensive mons easily and OHKO'ing Sneasel after Rocks or a few rounds of Life Orb recoil. Linoone can run a similar role, being much faster (Pikachu can't afford to run max speed, being forced to invest in both offensive stats (max Attack and Adamant, as well as a good number of EVs in Special Attack) but lacking the role to go mixed or Pikachu's wallbreaking power, but it outspeeds more including Gallade (Pikachu fails to thanks to its heavy offensive investment) and can deal a lot of damage to Gallade with Shadow Claw without having to resort to ExtremeSpeed again. Do not run Belly Drum on Linoone though, but probably a Life Orb of your own. Maybe Play Rough as the 4th move to smash a Fighting-type switch in, but that does not solve Linoone's Klingklang problem. A Choice Band set with Trick is also an option... Klingklang doesn't really like eating that.

TLDR: ExtremeSpeed.

 

[QueenOfLuvdiscs]

Just run something with a hard-hitting priority moves that outspeeds Sneasel's Ice Shard. Pikachu's Extremespeed certainly does, and comes from 458 attack, which is easily 2HKO'ing most offensive mons easily and OHKO'ing Sneasel after Rocks or a few rounds of Life Orb recoil. Linoone can run a similar role, being much faster (Pikachu can't afford to run max speed, being forced to invest in both offensive stats (max Attack and Adamant, as well as a good number of EVs in Special Attack) but lacking the role to go mixed or Pikachu's wallbreaking power, but it outspeeds more including Gallade (Pikachu fails to thanks to its heavy offensive investment) and can deal a lot of damage to Gallade with Shadow Claw without having to resort to ExtremeSpeed again. Do not run Belly Drum on Linoone though, but probably a Life Orb of your own. Maybe Play Rough as the 4th move to smash a Fighting-type switch in, but that does not solve Linoone's Klingklang problem. A Choice Band set with Trick is also an option... Klingklang doesn't really like eating that.

TLDR: ExtremeSpeed.

seriously??? If you're suggesting Pikachu and non-BD Linoone as our answers to the tier, don't you think that says a lot about the what NU is right now?. If you aren't gonna use BD on Linoone, why use it lol? Extremespeed is the not the answer, the priority isn't the issue; the STAB combination + speed is the issue with Sneasel. Being able to fire off STAB Knock Offs without having to worry about anything is ridiculous.

*cough*Knock Off suspect maybe?*cough*

 

[Shuckleking87]

seriously??? If you're suggesting Pikachu and non-BD Linoone as our answers to the tier, don't you think that says a lot about the what NU is right now?. If you aren't gonna use BD on Linoone, why use it lol? Extremespeed is the not the answer, the priority isn't the issue; the STAB combination + speed is the issue with Sneasel. Being able to fire off STAB Knock Offs without having to worry about anything is ridiculous.

*cough*Knock Off suspect maybe?*cough*

Actually CB Linoone hits pretty well, considering it's the fastest priority besides fake out, and sits in a good speed tier. It's been a good revenge killer for me when Ive used it. But Im sure based on your experience with non BD linoone is different from mine lol

 

[scorpdestroyer]

Hello. I am making this post after discussion with the council.

When looking at the post magnets meta it's quite a common opinion that the meta is pretty stale. Every team pretty much consists of similar threats and/or counters to threats. And obviously this needs fixing. Right now the council has mostly settled on a consensus as to what to suspect next, which you all can expect to see within the week. Everything, or at least most things, have already been said about Sneasel and Gallade, but I'll just sum it up while the council finalizes our next suspect.

Sneasel's main issue is possibly the spammability of its moves. Universally crippling / weakening almost all its counters or checks with just its STAB makes it incredibly easy to use. Spammable Knock Off with high speed destroys pretty much all offensive mons. Problem is, defensive mons or even offensive checks aren't spared either. Even "hard counters" like Regirock, Carracosta, and Mawile get worn down with relative ease because Leftovers is removed. Choice Scarf users can't switch in to beat it as they get knocked off, while Extremespeed users just die on the switch lol. and they're really rare anyway. Tanks such as Gurdurr and Hariyama lose their ability to take hits well after switching into it. It's incredibly difficult to switch into and almost impossible to check.

Now for another mon people have been complaining about. Gallade is one of the best wallbreakers this tier has ever seen, just annihilating the tier with its coverage moves. Knock, ZHB, and CC have perfect coverage, and it also has other more niche moves like Leaf Blade, Stone Edge, and even Trick and Wisp. Nothing outside of Xatu, Scyther and Granbull can really switch in and avoid a 2HKO, even those mons can be beat with the right predictions. Offense doesnt really struggle with Gallade due to its base 80 speed, but that in itself isnt a great argument. Checks like Sneasel and Fletchinder are weak to rocks or can't really switch in safely, meaning Gallade can still get a kill or two, or cripple something. Killing balanced / defensive teams with lots of slow mons really easily, though, with a boosting move and killer coverage is already something that makes Gallade very suspect worthy.

Overall, this meta just isnt a lot of fun and is really centralized over 2 big threats. Fighting against these threats has gotten to be a little too much IMO and its starting to affect the tier in a big way. Feel free to add on to whatever I've posted, or maybe even bring up something else to be suspected if you wish.

 

[CanadianWifier]

*cough*Knock Off suspect maybe?*cough*

Don't tell me you were seriously suggesting a knock off suspect..

Next we'll suspect Stealth Rock, Scald, and Pursuit.

 

[Deej Dy]

I agree with suspecting/banning Sneasel and Gallade. However, one thing concerns me; if Sneasel is banned what can keep the plethora of OP psychic types in check (Xatu, Musharna, Uxie, and Mesprit most notably), frail liepard and Cacturne? I hope another dark type drops into the tier soon, because banning sneasel may seem like a quick fix, but I think it could end up making the meta even worse. I would hate to have Calm mind wars and spamming psyshock to decide battles again like it was November/December (#ImprisonUxie)

 

[Choice Banned]

I agree with suspecting/banning Sneasel and Gallade. However, one thing concerns me; if Sneasel is banned what can keep the plethora of OP psychic types in check (Xatu, Musharna, Uxie, and Mesprit most notably), frail liepard and Cacturne? I hope another dark type drops into the tier soon, because banning sneasel may seem like a quick fix, but I think it could end up making the meta even worse. I would hate to have Calm mind wars and spamming psyshock to decide battles again like it was November/December (#ImprisonUxie)

Well, if Psychics become an issue, the problematic ones should be suspected or banned if they become an issue. There's no reason to keep a broken thing in to check other possibly broken things (this may not even be the case, like how people thought Mega Heracross would be banworthy if Aegislash left).

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

The only one suspect worthy in that case would be Musharna. Come to think of it, a triple suspect of a Fighting/Psychic/Dark core is not necessarily a bad idea. This same core has been centralizing the tier for the past two generations and kicking out 3 close to broken mons at once would without question be healthy for the tier. Like you simply can't look back at the Spiritomb and Shiftry meta's and say they were good. More often than not it was Dark-type (preferably with Pursuit) + Gurdurr/Sawk + random 4 team members.

 

[Disjunction]

I agree with suspecting/banning Sneasel and Gallade. However, one thing concerns me; if Sneasel is banned what can keep the plethora of OP psychic types in check (Xatu, Musharna, Uxie, and Mesprit most notably), frail liepard and Cacturne? I hope another dark type drops into the tier soon, because banning sneasel may seem like a quick fix, but I think it could end up making the meta even worse. I would hate to have Calm mind wars and spamming psyshock to decide battles again like it was November/December (#ImprisonUxie)

We still have plenty of Pokemon that can check CM Psychic-type sweepers. SD Eviolite Scyther, Klinklang, SD Mawile, SD Pawniard, and Malamar can set up next to Psychic-types and beat them out, depending on whatever coverage is most relevant at that point. If you're truly desperate, we have more niche choices such as Shedinja, CM Murkrow, and Unaware Swoobat. Not to mention Trick users, Taunt/Encore users (barring a matchup vs Xatu), and other matchup specific quirks such as Xatu's extra weaknesses in Electric/Rock/Ice, Uxie's lack of recovery, and Musharna's choice to not even run a coverage move some of the time. CM Psychics are a big threat, I will always agree to that, but they are fairly easy to prepare for in team builder.

 

[HJAD]

I also think one thing we should keep in mind is also the difference between a "centralising threat" e.g. Sneasel / gallade and a "threat that needs to be prepared for". Something like Malamar is a perfect example. By no means broken, Malamar has found a comfy home in A rank in NU. However, its not one of those mons that are naturally countered. You need to run specific coverage on one of your mons (e.g. siganl beam) or prevent it from superpowering to get boosts (e.g. ghosts, haze, Quagsire). Malamar can be considered centralising because it forces you to run a counter of some sort without being ridiculously weak to it. But, its counters are accessable to normal teams. This is preparing for a top threat, not something that's centralising and broken.

tl;dr be careful with what is a top tier Mon that requires some centralisation,(see Malamar/Samurott) and a Mon that is centralising because its broken (Sneasel / Gallade)