Gen 2 GSC Viability Ranking (OU)

[Borat]

at least with the case of A rank pokemon, you're better off naming what sucks rather than what's good. and what sucks in a rank is umbreon. everything else is totally subjective in that tier.

speaking of which, what makes umbreon better than something like blissey?

EDIT: i guess it's more of an issue of umbreon not fitting in b rather than it fitting into a. umbreon in the same sentence as quagsire or something is strange. so in that sense, i supposeeee it's "closer" to A than B. but that's some bottom barrel shit.

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

Umbreon to B+ would solve that, but it would look weird to have a sub for B and not A. And A's the problem.

Umbreon over Blissey? Charm and a Mean Look + Baton Pass, I guess. But you still get 3HKOd by the Electrics with Spikes and have no "good" instant recovery.

If anyone can make a case for some certain A's, maybe we can agree on them getting the sub. Or maybe we can refer to usage and see what's actually being used and consistent. I'm sure it would go back and forth regardless though.

 

[Borat]

Umbreon over Blissey? Charm and a Mean Look + Baton Pass, I guess. But you still get 3HKOd by the Electrics with Spikes and have no "good" instant recovery.

again see, that's just listing moves and stats. nothing about those quantify how umbreon is better, if it even is at all. saying umbreon has ml+bp is the same as saying blissey has light screen heal bell. you can't do a direct comparison with MOST good pokemon, so you factor in intangibles. good luck quantifying that.

if you can make a case for any of the A ranked pokemon better than another, by all means go for it. i doubt anybody can for the most part though. even for clear tier-headers like egg and cloyster, you still have a hard time saying definitively they're better than something like a mid-tier miltank. in some extreme sense, you can say cloyster is better than starmie, since one is the result of the other (ie snorlax and skarm), but that's a rare case.

you need to be quite a bit better at a lot of things to somehow get consensus. zapdos is clearly better than starmie, not at spinning obviously, but a better pokemon. the list of pros clearly outweigh the cons. but for the most part, most things in each tier is actually pretty close. and without consensus, there is no credibility.

and usage rates mean squat. suicune probably hasn't seen the better half of top 10 for the last half decade. because nobody wants to use it. it doesn't mean it's any less impactful. usage rates, especially with a diminutive player pool is strictly personal preference.

edit: and since snorlax has its own "snorlax tier" anyway, i don't see any reason the electrics shouldnt get their own "electrics tier".

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Tbh the electrics should be S tier and snorlax it's own higher tier. Might help distinguish the ranks if you Argue something like egg is also S

 

[Lavos]

that's how it is right now, check OP

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

so...egg to s tier?

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

again see, that's just listing moves and stats. nothing about those quantify how umbreon is better, if it even is at all. saying umbreon has ml+bp is the same as saying blissey has light screen heal bell. you can't do a direct comparison with MOST good pokemon, so you factor in intangibles. good luck quantifying that.

That's what I mean, that's all it has. Not much to actually say it's flat out better than Blissey.

if you can make a case for any of the A ranked pokemon better than another, by all means go for it. i doubt anybody can for the most part though. even for clear tier-headers like egg and cloyster, you still have a hard time saying definitively they're better than something like a mid-tier miltank. in some extreme sense, you can say cloyster is better than starmie, since one is the result of the other (ie snorlax and skarm), but that's a rare case.

most part, most things in each tier is actually pretty close. and without consensus, there is no credibility.

You're right, though I doubt anyone would oppose much to leaders like Exeggutor and Cloyster getting subbed up. It's a toss up.

For extreme cases, it depends on the circumstances. For Cloyster and Starmie, (like you say) you could look at the former being better since Starmie is the result. But Starmie's the result of Forretress as well, and that has HP Bug. Cloyster only has Explosion (still something vs Starmie though, but not the best idea because of Rapid Spin). I'm definitely Cloyster> Forretress, but it's shown that both have a big control of how metagame plays, while Starmie is just an all around decent Pokemon that survives in the tier. With that, I guess you could sub up Cloyster. Hope I'm making sense here (probably not but oh well).

so...egg to s tier?

Nope. It doesn't come close to how important the Electrics are.

 

[Golden009]

I kind of agree with dividing the tiers up at least a little bit more. It's extremely vague this way, and I'd rather have lines that maybe shouldn't be there than no lines at all. That way, we can show that egg and Cloyster are the best non elec, non Snorlax Pokemon, as well as making some demotes (such as Umbreon, but that's already been talked about.) People are going to complain about lines that shouldn't be there, but in the end, Viability Rankings are purely subjective, and meant as more of a guideline than anything else. In that sense, I think it would be good to have more division of the "tiers" here.

Also, 50th post, woot.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Nope. It doesn't come close to how important the Electrics are.

Well of course it doesn't but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be deserving of the same rank, especially if it helps to create a greater distinction in the muddled A tier. Egg, Gengar, and Cloyster are the three that could be argued to be head and shoulders above the rest of the current A rank and thus could be considered deserving of S tier. imo I'd rather shift things like Miltank and Umbreon down to B and cascade the rest but if we're looking to constrict the rankings then it only makes sense to expand S to a degree.

 

[WAZZUPYOSHI]

I can agree on Gengar and Cloyster, but Egg? I hope you talking about exeggutor and not blissey, because blissey is bad, exeggutor is good. Enough said.

 

[Ortheore]

I can agree on Gengar and Cloyster, but Egg? I hope you talking about exeggutor and not blissey, because blissey is bad, exeggutor is good. Enough said.

ya we're referring to exeggutor

Anyhow I agree with everyone else that we should add + ranks to at least A and B. Gengar, Cloyster and Egg all belong in an A+ tier, not sure what else maybe Steelix? idk on that one.

As for B, I think Espy/Jolt/Hera and idk Dnite? Rhydon? could maybe move up to a B+ rank. I'm no expert so I'm not 100% sure

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

Well of course it doesn't but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be deserving of the same rank, especially if it helps to create a greater distinction in the muddled A tier. Egg, Gengar, and Cloyster are the three that could be argued to be head and shoulders above the rest of the current A rank and thus could be considered deserving of S tier. imo I'd rather shift things like Miltank and Umbreon down to B and cascade the rest but if we're looking to constrict the rankings then it only makes sense to expand S to a degree.

What's up in the air is the inclusion of sub-rankings (+), so Exeggutor wouldn't have to be moved to S and it could go to A+, if there's a lot of support for it to happen.

 

[Borat]

yeah i disagree with everything. egg and co are much closer to the rest of a than either of the electrics.

nobody's making any arguments, just random ass suggestions. at least start with something insightful to instigate discussion.

 

[Royal Flush]

S is too much high to consider anything beside Electrics, really. A+ fits better if you guys actually want to split A ranks.
I personally disagree with Gengar as A+, though. He's a bit too risky to use, has moveslot syndrome etc. but I might be a bit biased as I really dislike Gengar before ADV.

As for Umbreon rank, I believe A rank is still fine for him. He has a good niche with drumlax basically gone, plus he's a lot more solid as a Pursuiter compared to Tyranitar (no choking against dp gar shenanigans, even giga egg kinda hurts his perfomance). Umby can't kill Missy though, which sucks a lot, but he's good against Starmie which Ttar obviously can't do anything. So all in all nowadays he tends to be a better option than Skarm, being not so passive like him and having better utility with pursuit (and also not being a free switch to electrics).

 

[Jorgen]

If we were to create an A+ rank, I'd say Cloy and Egg would be the only things I could envision a consensus for in terms of being above the rest of A rank. Cloy because Spikes is just that good, Egg because he's such a wildcard in any given match.

As for a potential A- rank, Starmie and Umbreon would be the only things I'd be super comfortable with putting a slight notch below the rest of A rank. Starmie because spinning being your singular role is kind of limiting (Machamp coverage is not enough of a secondary role to really count), Umbreon because he's either a super passive reactionary mon who doesn't do anything but sit there forever (comparable mons: Suicune gets Roar and an actual STAB to shoo things away, Miltank gets Heal Bell to pair with its Growl-stalling ways) or a one-trick pony with Trap-Pass who isn't really that difficult to stop.

 

[Borat]

a one-trick pony with Trap-Pass who isn't really that difficult to stop.

attract/confuse ray with a bit of luck is borderline broken.

is the goal to strike debate or to create an accurate tiering? breaking it down further would only accomplish the former.

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

@ Jorgen I wouldn't bother with a minus rank in this case. It would probably be creating too many lines, especially in A.

 

[Xeze]

Scizor in B doesn't seem right to me.

 

[Alfalfa]

I agree with Xeze; why is Scizor in the same rank as Heracross and Blissey when they are distinctly more consistent? Does Scizor have some positive traits that outweigh its inability to get past bulky Steel-types (especially those that carry phazing moves)?

 

[Jorgen]

I was wondering when someone would notice. I felt weird putting him there, but the other "classic" BP mons are also in B rank, and I figured it'd be weird to put Smeargle and Jolt in a different tier when all 3 see a huge chunk of their usage on that BP team and all fill valuable niches. I guess Scizor isn't as versatile as the others, though, so there's a case for him not being on the same level due to him seeing usage exclusively on that team.

 

[Borat]

i think scizor is ineffective without both jolteon and smeargle. jolteon is the most "splashable" of the three, and the one with the best secondary role being an electric and all. smeargle is the best "pure" passer. scizor is only good if you have smeargle sleeping their skarm and stuff

scizor to c is okay with me.

 

[M Dragon]

Yes, Scizor should be C or even D

 

[Jorgen]

D's a bit harsh for something with a well-defined niche like Scizor. To C he goes, though.

As for other things, anyone else think Kanga and Muk look a little doofy in B tier? Any arguments for, say, Starmie being closer to Blissey than to Umbreon in terms of viability? Is there, in fact, room for small +/- subranks to deal with mons like this that could oscillate? (most likely minus, something like A+ would imply oscillation between S and A and nothing really does that)

 

[Xeze]

Imo there should be a D rank, for stuff like Alakazam, Piloswine, Sandslash and the likes. With it, putting Muk and Kanga into C wouldn't look so weird.

 

[Borat]

what makes you think muk and kanga belongs in c in the first place?

they're every bit as usable as stuff like espeon/porygon2. maybe not quite blissey but still.