Maybe having a 780 bst clause, which should be ''You can only have 1/2 Pokemon above 780 BST''. While the Big 5 are amazing and can destroy a big part of the meta, I don't think they are unbeatable. But the thing making them so hard to destroy is due to the presence of them in the same team.
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Ladder Balanced Hackmons
- Thread starter verbatim
- Start date
tysequaine
80% sexy, 20% disgusting
I prefer the idea of a BST clause, either banning everything above 720 or combining that with DEG's suggestion and limiting your team to one 720+ Poké, similar in nature to the -ate clause, which I think we can all agree is excellent. The issue with fucking around with megas/items is that you'd also be hurting good (but not overpowered) megas, both offensively and defensively, such as Diancie, Slowbro, Tyranitar, Aerodactyl, etc., and mons like Primal Groudon/Kyogre (and perhaps even Rayquaza, but not nearly as well) would still be able to use their abilities effectively, even though they'd be limited to that ability/item.
Limiting your team to a single 720+ or none at all reduces offensive pressure, meaning people can probably get by with using a single wall to combat certain types of threats, instead of needing to dedicate multiple team spaces to checks/counters that let's be honest, are shaky at best with all the versatility that each member of the 'big 5' has, which only gets worse the more the opponent has on their team. We'd also see an increase in the use of other Pokémon, not only from the current players that use multiple ~780 BST Pokés in their teams, but the reduction in offensive pressure would make other walls a bit more viable, including mixed walls like Lugia, Audino and Cresselia, or even Shuckle if that minuscule HP stat doesn't deter you.
TL;DR I think that a BST Clause either Banning or Limiting to 1 Per Team every Pokémon with over 720 BST would balance and diversify the meta, forcing people to use different threats that are less difficult and more reliable to check/counter, and allowing the use of stall/bulky offensive Pokémon that currently can't hold their own against the 'big 5'.
While we're on the subject of balancing and diversifying the meta, I think Thousand Arrows does warrant a bit more discussion, paired with a fire type move for unresisted coverage is one of the things that makes Primal Groudon such a force to be reckoned with, while also completely killing the defensive viability of the flying type and the ability Levitate. While you can argue that your opponent might not be running Thousand Arrows, instead opting for more power in Precipice Blades or more accurate imposter-proofing in Earthquake, that doesn't change the fact that it is still a very common move, so using Pokémon such as Skarmory or Levitate Heatran is still completely unviable if you want to succeed against players other than the few that don't use Thousand Arrows. While it's not a huge issue, and physically defensive walls usually don't have much trouble with the unresisted coverage when it's not coming from Primal Groudon, I firmly believe that its removal, on top of the clauses mentioned above, would make Balanced Hackmons even more balanced and diverse.
Regarding Soul Dew Lati@s, while they are wildly powerful, especially with support and abilities that boost its speed (Contrary, Sand Rush, etc.), I don't think that they're particularly broken, considering their godawful defensive typing and the presence of moves such as U-turn and Knock Off in the meta, utility moves that do huge damage and/or cripple them, even from more defensive Pokémon. Keeping Soul Dew would also be a nice compromise, allowing the effective use of a 720+ Pokémon that exists within the clauses mentioned above. Its usage would see an increase, yes, but as would various checks and counters that would be able to effectively deal with it without being deadweight against 3 or more of the 'big 5'.
#FreePrimordialSeaSkarmory2k15
Limiting your team to a single 720+ or none at all reduces offensive pressure, meaning people can probably get by with using a single wall to combat certain types of threats, instead of needing to dedicate multiple team spaces to checks/counters that let's be honest, are shaky at best with all the versatility that each member of the 'big 5' has, which only gets worse the more the opponent has on their team. We'd also see an increase in the use of other Pokémon, not only from the current players that use multiple ~780 BST Pokés in their teams, but the reduction in offensive pressure would make other walls a bit more viable, including mixed walls like Lugia, Audino and Cresselia, or even Shuckle if that minuscule HP stat doesn't deter you.
TL;DR I think that a BST Clause either Banning or Limiting to 1 Per Team every Pokémon with over 720 BST would balance and diversify the meta, forcing people to use different threats that are less difficult and more reliable to check/counter, and allowing the use of stall/bulky offensive Pokémon that currently can't hold their own against the 'big 5'.
While we're on the subject of balancing and diversifying the meta, I think Thousand Arrows does warrant a bit more discussion, paired with a fire type move for unresisted coverage is one of the things that makes Primal Groudon such a force to be reckoned with, while also completely killing the defensive viability of the flying type and the ability Levitate. While you can argue that your opponent might not be running Thousand Arrows, instead opting for more power in Precipice Blades or more accurate imposter-proofing in Earthquake, that doesn't change the fact that it is still a very common move, so using Pokémon such as Skarmory or Levitate Heatran is still completely unviable if you want to succeed against players other than the few that don't use Thousand Arrows. While it's not a huge issue, and physically defensive walls usually don't have much trouble with the unresisted coverage when it's not coming from Primal Groudon, I firmly believe that its removal, on top of the clauses mentioned above, would make Balanced Hackmons even more balanced and diverse.
Regarding Soul Dew Lati@s, while they are wildly powerful, especially with support and abilities that boost its speed (Contrary, Sand Rush, etc.), I don't think that they're particularly broken, considering their godawful defensive typing and the presence of moves such as U-turn and Knock Off in the meta, utility moves that do huge damage and/or cripple them, even from more defensive Pokémon. Keeping Soul Dew would also be a nice compromise, allowing the effective use of a 720+ Pokémon that exists within the clauses mentioned above. Its usage would see an increase, yes, but as would various checks and counters that would be able to effectively deal with it without being deadweight against 3 or more of the 'big 5'.
#FreePrimordialSeaSkarmory2k15
I don't really see the point in limiting the number of op mons you have on a team because it means there's still completely op mons in the meta. Rayquaza for example, only using the aerilate set can get past it's most common counters / check just by using another coverage move. A megaray with low kick and spore can get past registeel / regirock / ttar / maggron / steelix / chansey and creates 50/50s against protean sweepers (if they know the set). I've been running v-create + infestation recently and just that lets you get past the 3 of the most used answers to megaray. You don't need 5 op mons to win a battle. You only need 1 and a decently good matchup (for example with low kick + spore, if the opp doesn't have aegislash, 1 pokemon will go down every time ray enters the field). And that's just using 1 set.
base stat close seems to be the best option imo. Just get theses monsters out of the meta.
base stat close seems to be the best option imo. Just get theses monsters out of the meta.
MMx and MMy's main sets are protean, and King's Shield is a staple of these sets. So physical pirority rarely threatens them. PH Ogre is stupidly underused, it's capable of sweeping after one Quiver Dance and is Imposter Proof. Not to mention most teams are weak to set up.
tysequaine
80% sexy, 20% disgusting
You don't, but consider that the more powerful a single 'big 5' threat is, the more it will be used in general, and the more it will be prepared for in other teams. Matchup will almost always have a say in BH, because any Pokémon can run any ability with any moves, you're not going to be able to check/counter everything. In saying that, the Rayquaza set you referred to is physical, and is crippled by burns and King's Shield, concepts that are already common, and will only become more common if people are opting for a physical member of the 'big 5' as their 720+. If you use Boomburst, you sacrifice either flinches, Shedinja-killing or killing checks that are weak to V-create/Low Kick. While they are powerful, the Pokémon we're discussing at the moment are still able to be dealt with if your team is prepared for enough different things, not by thinking about what Pokémon might run what, but by what moves in general will be run.
Only allowing one of them on a team means that if you see that Poké on your opponent's side, you can decide what you'll need to keep alive or perhaps even sack to deal with it, as it'll most likely be their main damage dealer. The thing is, that will likely be their main source of offensive pressure, they won't be able to run 5 or 6 top tier Pokés to overwhelm your threats, checks and counters to each one. Matchup will still play a part, but like I said, it will always play a part, because of the nature of the meta. This just means that matchup won't be as important as it is now, which I think is pretty healthy without outright banning Pokémon.
I don't disagree with you, I'm not concerned at whether they get banned or limited, as long as something is done. I'm just providing a different perspective.
For people not keeping track of the poll, it's interesting to note that it's currently, as of this post, 12 for Pokemon Bans, 8 for Species Clause, 8 for limiting Megas, 6 for doing nothing, and 3 for other complex bans. Again though, like Kingslayer said, unofficial and indeterminate of anything, and people can IP abuse it I think. But, interesting to note that Pokemon Bans are the most preferred option out of voters, with species and the complex mega clause thingy being second.
Just in case anyone isn't convinced Groudon himself isn't a problem, i took an in-depth look at his Tinted Lens set. The Results are what i expected. The set's counters are 100% reliant on Primordial Sea and Fur Coat. There are also very few mons that can check his Tinted Set as well. The Following calcs are based on this set:
Groudon-Primal @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- V-create
- Thousand Arrows
- U-turn
- Blue Flare/Trick
Lets Start off against the most logical Primal Don check/counter: the strongest Water Type, Primal Kyogre. A full defensive PH set can barely check Don. Scarf Sets are reliant on speed tie or Don not being Jolly. Or the Scarf set could be Primordial Sea.
252+ Atk Tinted Lens Primal Groudon V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Primal Kyogre: 318-376 (78.7 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.
This were things get dicey. What else "checks" Tinted Don. You can also use Mega Swampert, though its viability in BH isn't exactly the highest. Protean Mega Mewtwo sets won't work either:
-2 252+ Atk Primal Groudon V-create vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Mewtwo X: 410-486 (116.1 - 137.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO King's Shield Calc
252+ Atk Primal Groudon V-create vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Mewtwo X: 411-484 (116.4 - 137.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO.
252 Atk Protean Mega Mewtwo X Land's Wrath vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Primal Groudon: 260-308 (76.2 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
The only way Mega Mewtwo X wins this is if its Scarf as well, and Protean Scarf isn't optimal. MMx would also have to carry Crabhammer. Mega Mewtwo Y has the same issues as X, though it does ohko with Earth Power, and doesn't need a Water Move.
Rayquaza is the only Fake Speed user with a shot to OHKO Don. The rest can't do it, and if you don't get that kill you are solidly OHKO:
252+ Atk Life Orb Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Primal Groudon: 103-122 (30.2 - 35.7%) -- 35.3% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Primal Groudon: 207-243 (60.7 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Tinted Lens Primal Groudon V-create vs. 0 HP / 4- Def Mega Rayquaza: 456-538 (129.9 - 153.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
What about other threats like Arceus, Palkia, Ho-Oh, Xerneas,, and Yveltal?
252+ Atk Primal Groudon V-create vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Arceus: 352-415 (79.2 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Arceus Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Primal Groudon: 337-398 (98.8 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Land's Wrath vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Palkia: 207-244 (64.2 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Primal Groudon V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Yveltal: 307-363 (67.3 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Yveltal Oblivion Wing vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Primal Groudon: 159-187 (46.6 - 54.8%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO
And Slowbro:
0 SpA Tinted Lens Primal Groudon Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 240-282 (60.9 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Summery:
Checks:
Palkia
Kyogre
Arceus
Counters: (the following need Primordial Sea or Fur Coat to counter)
Giratina
Mega Slowbro (only Primordial Sea)
Mega Audino
Lugia
Of the "Counters" only Giratina and Mega Slowbro can beat Tinted Lens sets and Mold Breaker sets. Its checks all need free switch ins, they lose otherwise. If this set isn't too Powerful for the metagame, i'm not sure what is. This isn't even Don abusing anything more then its STABS+ one ability and it threatens almost the entire metagame and forces teams to run Fur Coat/Primordial Sea. I stand by my previous stance. Primal-Groudon needs to be banned, not nerfed by Species Clause or a restriction that would go against the nature of Hackmons. It needs an outright ban!
Groudon-Primal @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- V-create
- Thousand Arrows
- U-turn
- Blue Flare/Trick
Lets Start off against the most logical Primal Don check/counter: the strongest Water Type, Primal Kyogre. A full defensive PH set can barely check Don. Scarf Sets are reliant on speed tie or Don not being Jolly. Or the Scarf set could be Primordial Sea.
252+ Atk Tinted Lens Primal Groudon V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Primal Kyogre: 318-376 (78.7 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.
This were things get dicey. What else "checks" Tinted Don. You can also use Mega Swampert, though its viability in BH isn't exactly the highest. Protean Mega Mewtwo sets won't work either:
-2 252+ Atk Primal Groudon V-create vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Mewtwo X: 410-486 (116.1 - 137.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO King's Shield Calc
252+ Atk Primal Groudon V-create vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Mewtwo X: 411-484 (116.4 - 137.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO.
252 Atk Protean Mega Mewtwo X Land's Wrath vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Primal Groudon: 260-308 (76.2 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
The only way Mega Mewtwo X wins this is if its Scarf as well, and Protean Scarf isn't optimal. MMx would also have to carry Crabhammer. Mega Mewtwo Y has the same issues as X, though it does ohko with Earth Power, and doesn't need a Water Move.
Rayquaza is the only Fake Speed user with a shot to OHKO Don. The rest can't do it, and if you don't get that kill you are solidly OHKO:
252+ Atk Life Orb Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Primal Groudon: 103-122 (30.2 - 35.7%) -- 35.3% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Primal Groudon: 207-243 (60.7 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Tinted Lens Primal Groudon V-create vs. 0 HP / 4- Def Mega Rayquaza: 456-538 (129.9 - 153.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
What about other threats like Arceus, Palkia, Ho-Oh, Xerneas,, and Yveltal?
252+ Atk Primal Groudon V-create vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Arceus: 352-415 (79.2 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Arceus Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Primal Groudon: 337-398 (98.8 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Land's Wrath vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Palkia: 207-244 (64.2 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Primal Groudon V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Yveltal: 307-363 (67.3 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Yveltal Oblivion Wing vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Primal Groudon: 159-187 (46.6 - 54.8%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO
And Slowbro:
0 SpA Tinted Lens Primal Groudon Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 240-282 (60.9 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Summery:
Checks:
Palkia
Kyogre
Arceus
Counters: (the following need Primordial Sea or Fur Coat to counter)
Giratina
Mega Slowbro (only Primordial Sea)
Mega Audino
Lugia
Of the "Counters" only Giratina and Mega Slowbro can beat Tinted Lens sets and Mold Breaker sets. Its checks all need free switch ins, they lose otherwise. If this set isn't too Powerful for the metagame, i'm not sure what is. This isn't even Don abusing anything more then its STABS+ one ability and it threatens almost the entire metagame and forces teams to run Fur Coat/Primordial Sea. I stand by my previous stance. Primal-Groudon needs to be banned, not nerfed by Species Clause or a restriction that would go against the nature of Hackmons. It needs an outright ban!
What about shedinja as a counter to primaldon? assuming that set you've listed,shedinja completely walls it. Also, regardless, fur coat ogre is an excellent tank, albeit an underrated one. And also, pranktina can stall out v-create with recovery.252+ Atk Tinted Lens Primal Groudon V-create vs.
252+ Atk Tinted Lens Primal Groudon V-create vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 262-308 (52 - 61.2%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Also, scarf protean mmx is actually common enough (vcreate+boltstrike+filler (ks usually iirc)+filler (i use crabhammer to hit primaldon) and can easily demolish primaldon
However, it does bring up a good point about how broken primaldon is.dang it,just nerf it so it has to have the item/ability because seriously, without either, it isn't nearly as good as it is now.
252+ Atk Tinted Lens Primal Groudon V-create vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 262-308 (52 - 61.2%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Also, scarf protean mmx is actually common enough (vcreate+boltstrike+filler (ks usually iirc)+filler (i use crabhammer to hit primaldon) and can easily demolish primaldon
However, it does bring up a good point about how broken primaldon is.
I wouldn't say sheddy walls anything with u-turn on it.
I doubt the combination of scarf + crabhammer is common. Also you still have to lock yourself in crabhammer to kill groudon which is a terrible move to be locked into.
trick on scarf sets or just a banded set destroy tina.
Mold Breaker Pdons whose job is to tick off Fur Coat check/counters obliterate Sheddy. It's not reliable, especially on multi-Pdon teams.
Personally I think all counters should be able to switch in on SR, something Shed will never be able to do, which is partly why it's so unreliable and absent on so many high level teams. Also Choice Scarf Protean seems sub optimal. You lose King's Shield and the ability to check ates, and getting locked into a move hinders Protean's fantastic wallbreaking capabilities. The Scarf only enables you to outspeed Scarf Don, Mmy, and Gengar. Protean sets are better without Scarf.
Pikachuun
the entire waruda machine
Why would we ban a terrible gimmick?
Electrify is tauntable (especially by prankster), weak to -ate priority in most cases, and Imposter bait among other things, all of which are used in higher level play. Believe me, it's far from broken. Please do not run it unless you want to lose starting at mid to mid-high ladder.
Electrify is tauntable (especially by prankster), weak to -ate priority in most cases, and Imposter bait among other things, all of which are used in higher level play. Believe me, it's far from broken. Please do not run it unless you want to lose starting at mid to mid-high ladder.
Occasionally Lightning Rod + Electrify or a normalize Ghost type sweeps a 100% unprepared team on lower ladder. But both of these strategies are easily prepared for when preparing for other sets. Between what Pikachuun and you listed, there is a laundry list of things that beat that combo. And the thing listed are already common and are not specifically run to beat it. Meaning there is basically zero reason for us to ban that combo.
This is why om c&c gotta hurry up, this should be common knowledge
It doesn't help that mega sceptile is weak to every ate and gale wings (and the occasional ice shard), is walled endlessly by unaware (though it's seeing much less use lately), and is completely destroyed by mold breaker and co (which is very common)
It doesn't help that mega sceptile is weak to every ate and gale wings (and the occasional ice shard), is walled endlessly by unaware (though it's seeing much less use lately), and is completely destroyed by mold breaker and co (which is very common)
Somewhat slow reply since Smogon didn't poke me, but if you really really want to beat Electrify in a funny way, use Motor Drive. Ideally on Yveltal since common Electrify users are weak to one of its typings. So, they start spamming Electrify, Motor Driver switches in, gets a speed boost, and can threaten/KO the Electrify user.
Or you can do the more practical thing and use stuff suggested above, which will be useful in more battles, but less fun when pitted against an Electrify user.
Or you can do the more practical thing and use stuff suggested above, which will be useful in more battles, but less fun when pitted against an Electrify user.
Eh... When it comes to a 720 bs nerf I'm indifferent. But when you come to the hoenn trio, Mega Rayquaza, Primal Groudon and Kyogre I don't really see a big problem with banning those three. Mega Rayquaza is just a more powerful and better in every possible way Rayquaza, so I can see regular Rayquaza straight up replacing it when it leaves. Kyogre is the same deal, it loses nothing from using its Primal form and all the things that make it broken are nerfed if you just ban the form, all of its usual sets are still usable but nerfed. Primal Groudon is a little different. Groudon gets an entirely new type, which means its normal form can't truly spam V-creates. But that's about it. Giving it a fire type gives it a nifty bunch of resistances and an amazing offensive stab but not much else. If we were to ban Groudon as a form it would arguably become the weakest of the trio, but there's little way around this. Stab V-creates in this metagames seems too much to handle, I'm fine with this.
Now that was the Hoenn trio. But there are two other 720 bs pokemon. Mega Mewtwo X and Mega Mewtwo Y. MMX isn't that broken, honestly. Psychic is a pretty poor offensive typing on the physical side and Giratina is an utter pain to deal with, so I would have a problem with banning this. Not really broken in my opinion, however much that matters. Mega Mewtwo Y is different, it's better than MMX on average I'd say. Protean is a pain blah blah blah, I'm not going to bore you with why it's better, you should get it. I don't think it's broken, however because of its poor physical defence, and yes this is mitigated with King shield but not every MMY runs King shield. It gives the blob a free switch in most of the time, which is awful. Idk... It's not as centralising as the Hoenn trio is. Primal don is something for itself with Thousand arrows + V-create being an utter terror for any team to face. Mega Rayquaza spamming Fake out + Extreme speed dealing massive damage to an atrocious amount of pokemon. And Primal ogre setting up on a large part of the metagame (lol, what is this metagame besides 720 bs spam) and sweeping teams with ease.
Verdict? Ban the Hoenn trio, don't ban either of the MMs
Now that was the Hoenn trio. But there are two other 720 bs pokemon. Mega Mewtwo X and Mega Mewtwo Y. MMX isn't that broken, honestly. Psychic is a pretty poor offensive typing on the physical side and Giratina is an utter pain to deal with, so I would have a problem with banning this. Not really broken in my opinion, however much that matters. Mega Mewtwo Y is different, it's better than MMX on average I'd say. Protean is a pain blah blah blah, I'm not going to bore you with why it's better, you should get it. I don't think it's broken, however because of its poor physical defence, and yes this is mitigated with King shield but not every MMY runs King shield. It gives the blob a free switch in most of the time, which is awful. Idk... It's not as centralising as the Hoenn trio is. Primal don is something for itself with Thousand arrows + V-create being an utter terror for any team to face. Mega Rayquaza spamming Fake out + Extreme speed dealing massive damage to an atrocious amount of pokemon. And Primal ogre setting up on a large part of the metagame (lol, what is this metagame besides 720 bs spam) and sweeping teams with ease.
Verdict? Ban the Hoenn trio, don't ban either of the MMs
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thesecondbest
Just Kidding I'm First
Honestly I think PG is the only one that needs to go. When freaking sewaddle has double the use of regular groudon, you know you are absolutely disgusting. It has basically unresisted stab combos and can shred through teams. Mega ray is beaten by chansey and by regenvest mons like registeel or ttar, and ogre takes a while to get threatening with its set up. Unless you are poison heal (or judgement lol) chansey is an annoyance to your set. MMY is too frail and dies to any ate speeder and mmx is good, but not pg good. Just ban/nerf groudon
I'm going to talk to TI and Eevee General, with the intention of putting up a thread soon.
Right now I'm thinking
do Nothing
Ban Primal Groudon
Ban Hoenn Trio
Species Clause
Hoenn Trio needs to ascend/reverse the regular way (i.e. can't use custom abilities), this is the most controversial one
If anyone has any other ideas or concerns, now is the time to speak
Right now I'm thinking
do Nothing
Ban Primal Groudon
Ban Hoenn Trio
Species Clause
Hoenn Trio needs to ascend/reverse the regular way (i.e. can't use custom abilities), this is the most controversial one
If anyone has any other ideas or concerns, now is the time to speak
Ban Hoenn Trio and Hoenn Trio needs to ascend/reverse the regular way is the same thing. When you ban Hoenn trio, you're not banning the Orbs or Dragon Ascent.
xJownage
Even pendulums swing both ways
Thank lord, also are you planning on also suspecting MM2y/x with these? They are arguably as centralizing/broken, and without the primals would probably be just as bad as pdon was.
Requiring them to ascend would allow them to be used with their default abilities, banning them outright would mean you can only use their regular forms.
Tbh I feel like a protean suspect would be more in order. Take protean away and the Mega Mewtwos are stuck with their mediocre typings and there power is greatly nerfed. But let's focus on the Hoenn trio for now.
And I do have one more idea. Since we are suspecting the entire Hoenn trio, I would like to bring up the -are abilities as a discussion point. While Groudon and Kyogre use a high number of non-broken abilities, Mega Rayquaza most commonly uses 1 ability to be broken: Aerialate. While Gale Wings sets are also very powerful, Aerialate sets arw the defining nuke in the current metagame. It is possible that it is not Mega Ray that breaks ate, but rather ate that breaks Mega Ray. Food for thought.