Other ORAS Metagame Discussion

[Tymano]

Regarding Hoopa, I could see Unbound being banned, but regular seems to be an A- threat to me, 110,150 attacking stats are great, but its base 70 speed leaves a lot to be desired (Max speed + beneficial nature only hits 262 speed, speed-tying it with Bisharp) and its typing, ghost/psychic, only hits 4 types super effectively with its stabs offensively. But it only resists 3 types defensively, and is hit by 2 rather common types for 4x effectiveness (dark and ghost.) One of which is a move which is very common (knock off) It has a paperthin defense at 60, and even though it has 130 special defense, 80 HP is pretty middling for a wall. It does get nice coverage in Focus miss, Energy ball, and T-bolt. It does get trick, D-bond, and Trick room as supportive options though, which is pretty nice.

 

[Kurona]

Regarding Hoopa, I could see Unbound being banned, but regular seems to be an A- threat to me, 110,150 attacking stats are great, but its base 70 speed leaves a lot to be desired (Max speed + beneficial nature only hits 262 speed, speed-tying it with Bisharp) and its typing, ghost/psychic, only hits 4 types super effectively with its stabs offensively. But it only resists 3 types defensively, and is hit by 2 rather common types for 4x effectiveness (dark and ghost.) One of which is a move which is very common (knock off) It has a paperthin defense at 60, and even though it has 130 special defense, 80 HP is pretty middling for a wall. It does get nice coverage in Focus miss, Energy ball, and T-bolt. It does get trick, D-bond, and Trick room as supportive options though, which is pretty nice.

Non-Unbound Hoopa will be nowhere near A- and I doubt it'll even be viable. It has a horrendous typing both offensively and defensively, a useless ability, very bad stat distribution and it's movepool really isn't anything to write home about. I don't really see what possible niche it could hold in this metagame.

 

[Celticpride]

Yeah regular Hoopa seems pretty solid. Nasty Plot, Taunt, Sub and Knock Off give it a lot of utility stallbreaking options. 70 base speed is around where a lot of stallbreakers are (Bisharp, Mega Heracross, Mega Scizor). I mean what switches in on NP/Psyshock/Shadow Ball/Focus Blast? Not much if anything. Kurona I have no idea what you are talking about... A- seems like a possible stretch but you overlook the positives of 150 Special Attack, Ghost STAB and STAB Psyshock. That's pretty hard to switch into even ignoring other coverage options.

Some Sample Calcs

+2 252 SpA Hoopa Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 220-261 (62.5 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery <-- No boosting item or anything
+2 252 SpA Hoopa Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 385-454 (59.9 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Hoopa Shadow Ball vs. 244 HP / 192+ SpD Gliscor: 267-315 (75.8 - 89.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 132+ SpD Mega Sableye: 273-321 (89.8 - 105.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO <-- Utility MegaEye
+2 252 SpA Hoopa Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 258-304 (84.8 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO <-- CM MegaEye

+2 252 SpA Hoopa Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Mega Altaria: 255-300 (72.2 - 84.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I mean I'm not one for huge walls of calcs (anymore :P) but regardless of shitty speed or typing it can dish out a ton of damage. There's also been successful breakers with low speed and bad typing (see Diggersby).

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Assault Vest Hoopa looks like it could be pretty interesting. 80/130 special bulk puts it on par with Latias, and it certainly has the power and movepool to make the most out of such a set. Not sure what sort of EVs would be best, but here's some calcs assuming a basic 252 HP / 252 SpA / 252 SpD spread:

Calcs

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Hoopa: 148-175 (40.6 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Hoopa Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 294-348 (98.3 - 116.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Hoopa: 99-118 (27.1 - 32.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ SpA Hoopa Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 193-228 (64.5 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Pixilate Mega Altaria Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Hoopa: 100-118 (27.4 - 32.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ SpA Hoopa Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 153-181 (52.3 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Hoopa: 144-169 (39.5 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Hoopa Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 350-414 (108.3 - 128.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+3 252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Hoopa: 144-171 (39.5 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Hoopa Thunderbolt vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 240-284 (66.4 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

232 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Hoopa: 120-142 (32.9 - 39%) -- 99.7% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Hoopa Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 248-294 (89.5 - 106.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

Non-Unbound Hoopa will be nowhere near A- and I doubt it'll even be viable. It has a horrendous typing both offensively and defensively, a useless ability, very bad stat distribution and it's movepool really isn't anything to write home about. I don't really see what possible niche it could hold in this metagame.

That's way too harsh, if you ask me. I fail to see how a Pokemon with 150 base SpA, Latias's special bulk, a very spammable STAB Shadow Ball, a decent handful of coverage moves, and other cool moves like Nasty Plot, Destiny Bond, and Trick won't find at least some niche in OU. I mean, we've got stuff like Forretress and Whimsicott in the C Ranks lol. It's hard for me to believe that Hoopa won't be viable in some way.

 

[jordanthejq12]

A- seems like a possible stretch but you overlook the positives of 150 Special Attack, Ghost STAB and STAB Psyshock. That's pretty hard to switch into even ignoring other coverage options.

Theoretically, the combo of STABs and Focus Blast is unresisted. Practically, of course, if you predict a Dark-type switching in, you have to take your chances with Focus Miss.

And I get the feeling Confined's signature move, Hyperspace Hole, is going to fall by the wayside here. HH has 80 BP with perfect accuracy (not that that matters much with Evasion Clause in play) and ignores Protect, which does help against anything that relies on Protecting (Mega Diancie, for example), but hey, it gets Psyshock, which I've noticed people tend to prefer in general.

 

[Albacore]

Honestly even regular Hoppa looks like Crawdaunt on stereoids to me... what exactly counters it? The closest I could find to viable counters are max SpD Sableye, SpD Mandibuzz which you can run TBolt if you really want to beat, Meloetta, and a really specific Unaware Clefable spread which isn't 2HKOed by either LO Shadow Ball or LO Psyshock after Protect, and which just falls apart if rocks are up or if Hoopa runs Modest... did I mention this thing gets Nasty Plot and Taunt? (not that it actually needs Taunt lol)

Yeah I'm not sure how Stall is supposed to deal with regular Hoopa without resorting to Gothitelle Trick magic (which doesn't even work if it's under a Sub lol) OR AT ALL BECAUSE IT'S A GHOST TYPE YOU DUMBASS or random pursuit trappers (Drapion anyone?) like it did in very, very early XY for MGengar, and its Latias-level special bulk can defenitely enable it to get a hit in vs more offensive teams (and anyone who's played in early XY or the Aegi retest knows how hard a Shadow Ball from a base 150 Attack can be for more offensive teams to switch into).

So yeah I really, really don't think the gap bewteen Hoopa and Hoopa-U is as wide as most people are saying it is, I'm not even sure Hoopa-U is broken but I do know that if it is banned, Hoopa will be pretty damn good. Yeah Pursuit weakness sucks but it doesn't stop Gengar, Latios and Starmie from being good and it's not going to stop this either. (also LO Timid Shadow Ball 2HKOs Bisharp which at best speed ties with it lol, can't reliably trap it even if it doesn't run Focus Blast and instead opts for something like STABs+Sub+NP so yeah)
Obviously it won't be ranked if Hoopa-U isn't banned because why would you use it when Hoopa-U exists (though now that I think about it has a few advantages over Hoopa-U such as a far more spammable STAB in Shadow Ball, a neat Fighting immunity, being able to spinblack and not being hit SE by Fairies so maybe it'll be a C+ rank or something), but if it's not then A- honestly seems, if anything, too low for something this ridiculously threatening to bulkier teams imo.

 

[DaKakz]

Yeah I'm not sure how Stall is supposed to deal with regular Hoopa without resorting to Gothitelle Trick magic (which doesn't even work if it's under a Sub lol) or random pursuit trappers (Drapion anyone?) like it did in very, very early XY for MGengar, and its Latias-level special bulk can defenitely enable it to get a hit in vs more offensive teams (and anyone who's played in early XY or the Aegi retest knows how hard a Shadow Ball from a base 150 Attack can be for more offensive teams to switch into).

Correct me if I'm wrong but ghost types cannot be trapped by Shadow Tag so no trapping with Goth

 

[Froggyboy]

Pros:
- Amazing mixed stats in 110/150
- Unresisted coverage in Psyshock, Dark Pulse, and Focus Blast
- Has a lot of coverage to catch its check off guard
- Really high SpD with a decent 80 HP
- Typing leaves it with not many weaknesses
- Stats leave it with a lot of options set wise, like Trick Room, Mixed, AV, Scarf, and more.

Cons:
- Low speed in 70
- Pitiful 60 Def
- Is 4x weak to Ghost and Dark, which are pretty common in the current meta
- No sustainability unless Drain Punch, which is kinda lol
- STAB leaves it with a lot of checks
- Useless ability


On paper, Hoopa is definitely A rank material, but we will have to wait and see, remember when we are saying Mega Slowbro was broken?

 

[MrAldo]

Indeed, trapping regular hoopa with goth isnt even an option, lol. Hoopa-Unbound is already ridiculous, it is the perfect stallbreaker, it has all the tools a wallbreaker or stallbreaker would dream of and incredibly obscene power to back it up. Taunt, nasty plot, calm mind, psyshock, STAB Knock off, trick, magic coat, the ability of going mixed, hyperspace fury that actually bypass protect and so much else! This thing is just insane, it will make anything defensive a liability.

Regular Hoopa isnt as brutal as its Unbound form (thankfully) but it is certainly really strong, packing the same fantastic movepool and really good 110/130 offensive stats. Isnt even easy to pursuit trap cause it has fighting coverage so common pursuit trappers risk getting bopped by it. The low speed is a bummer though but the matchup against balance and defensive teams is actually looking excellent from here.

Looking forward to the Hoopa Confined, the Unbound one is broken pls ban.

 

[Froggyboy]

Nitpick, but Hoopa still gets Pursuit trapped because of its 4x weakness to Dark, even if it stays in.

252 Atk Bisharp Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 388-460 (128.9 - 152.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 408-484 (135.5 - 160.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 489-582 (162.4 - 193.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

You get the picture, once they get in, your stuck.

 

[Firebird101]

I could see Hoopa-C being in the B ranks. It is too slow to be constantly effective as offensive teams are the way to go and while it's special bulk is impressive, it's physical bulk is kinda mediocre. Of course if it gets safely in against a mon that can't threaten it fast enough then it is gonna wreck something but it is easy for offensive teams to regain momentum by threaten to revenge kill it. I am curious to see how it plays out though, as theorymonning can only get us so far ^^

 

[doughboy]

Hoppa-Unbound will definitely break OU lol. OU now has another viable spinblocker that can stop Starmie and will just fuel Spike-stacking teams. It might not be able to spinblock Excadrill, but neither could Aegislash (reliably). It is extremely close to 2HKO'ing Skarmory after SR with Hyperspace Fury with no boosting move / item because of the defense drop. Even then, Skarmory cannot roost on you because of repeated Hyperspace Fury drops.

With a Life Orb it just becomes absurdly strong. I plugged in Hyperspace Fury into a damage calc and good lord look at the power. It can 2HKO Skarm with SR and a Life Orb.

252 Atk Life Orb Hoopa-Unbound (No Move) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 142-168 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- 34.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Hoopa-Unbound (No Move) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 153-183 (45.8 - 54.7%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

It is kyurem-b * 100 better because it has usable STAB's and boosting moves.

Bounded Hoopa is interesting. I think people are getting a little too hung up on its Pursuit weakness. The Psychic's that are x2 weak to Pursuit like Jirachi / Celebi but still hover around the same speed tier as Hoopa-B (~240 /~262) still die to the same type of strong Pursuits are still plenty viable. At least Hoopa has a decent amount of Fighting moves from both ends of the spectrum to deter Pursuiters from switching in. Same as Gengar pretty much vs Bisharp / Scarf Ttar / Weaville. None of the pursuit users are gonna switch in on it because they'll die to a Fighting-move and Gengar / Hoppa is gonna pick one kill along the way then die to Pursuit. Against teams without Pursuit users, you will have a field day spamming your ghost STAB. AV could give some decent bulk to pick up kills against offense, or you can just use Scarf to spam a nice 150 base special attack shadow ball.

Can't wait to make a Ghost-spam team with Gengar+Hoppa :O

edit: Karxrida opps got mixed up lol i stand corrected. but my point still stands that it is absurdly powerful even with no boosting item or move

edit2: Flare Blitzle i'm wrong about everything :[

 

[Karxrida]

Hoppa-Unbound will definitely break OU lol. OU now has another viable spinblocker that can stop Starmie and will just fuel Spike-stacking teams. It might not be able to spinblock Excadrill, but neither could Aegislash (reliably). It is extremely close to 2HKO'ing Skarmory after SR with Hyperspace Fury with no boosting move / item because of the defense drop. Even then, Skarmory cannot roost on you because of repeated Hyperspace Fury drops. With a Life Orb it just becomes absurdly strong. It is kyurem-b * 100 better because it has usable STAB's and boosting moves.

Bounded Hoopa is interesting. I think people are getting a little too hung up on its Pursuit weakness. The Psychic's that are x2 weak to Pursuit like Jirachi / Celebi but still hover around the same speed tier as Hoopa-B (~240 /~262) still die to the same type of strong Pursuits are still plenty viable. At least Hoopa has a decent amount of Fighting moves from both ends of the spectrum to deter Pursuiters from switching in. Same as Gengar pretty much vs Bisharp / Scarf Ttar / Weaville. None of the pursuit users are gonna switch in on it because they'll die to a Fighting-move and Gengar / Hoppa is gonna pick one kill along the way. Against teams without Pursuit users, you will have a field day spamming your ghost STAB. AV could give some decent bulk to pick up kills against offense, or you can just use Scarf to spam a nice 150 base special attack shadow ball.

Can't wait to make a Ghost-spam team with Gengar+Hoppa :O

Unbound cannot spinblock because it's not a Ghost-type.

 

[Flare Blitzle]

It is extremely close to 2HKO'ing Skarmory after SR with Hyperspace Fury with no boosting move / item because of the defense drop. Even then, Skarmory cannot roost on you because of repeated Hyperspace Fury drops.

Hyperspace Fury drops the user's defense, not the opponent's, tho.

 

[ArcanePhoenix]

The point is still valid as stall is pretty much done for if Unbound is in OU. 100 BP + Stab from a 170 Base and on top of that it is dark-type... I don't think anything in OU can take this move twice.
That beeing said we hopefully get an early suspect or quickbann on this monster.

 

[Norne]

I'm in for a quickban of that thing, it's way too polarizing.

 

[Karxrida]

I'm in for a quickban of that thing, it's way too polarizing.

If it's polarizing a quickban isn't happening. Quickbans are for things we know would get banned if a test happened and need overwhelming support from the community.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Hoopa Unbound will without a doubt be too much. I'm not going to bother discussing that

Hoopa in its regular form is also something I believe is broken. I don't think the low speed harms it as much as people might think. Running an assault vest set means it can come in on a plethora of mons and revenge kill them. Also having zero counters between taunt, nasty plot, tbolt, duel stab is pretty amazing either way. Idk... You let this thing back into OU and you're effectively ruining any chance Stall could ever have at being effective. GG

 

[Hiddenfreezer]

Yeah Hoopa Unbound can even carry a scary Scarf set, as it can always switch into Lati@s and simply spam Hyperspace Fury....

Hoopa normal is interesting, a move powerful gengar which is slower. I like it...sounds like a really strong pokemon though. I think HoopaC is a case of trying it out, not theorymonning it.

 

[ArcanePhoenix]

Hoopa[Bound] might be as murderous for stall as its OP-Version. Stab Ghost is a pest in a metagame that does not have too many resists against it.
Realesing it to OU might force stall to run either Ttar or Mandi. TTar gets nuked by Focusmiss and Mandi is t-bolt fodder.

 

[Hootie]

Okay so lets talk about this thing here

I think that Manaphy should be looked at in the current metagame. I believe (and I'm sure others feel the same way) that Manaphy has an unhealthy effect on the meta and only adds to the match up issues in ORAS primarily because it can invalidate entire stall teams and even some balance teams to an extent. It has so many options at its disposal to break through stall with the obvious one being its Tail Glow + Rain Dance set or even the underrated Calm Mind + Rain Dance set. Stall only has one good answer to Tail Glow + Rain Dance in specially defensive Unaware Clefable, which is a mediocre spread to use in the first place and can still lose if it gets burned by Scald. It also picks and chooses what checks it with its coverage. For example common answers such as Mega Venusaur gets destroyed by Tail Glow-boosted Psychic, Rotom gets taken out by Energy Ball, while another normally solid switch in, Ferrothorn, just flat out lose to HP Fire variants. It's bothersome how mindless the Pokemon itself is due to its ease of use and how it becomes immediately threatening in a matter of one turn. Does your team need something to break through stall with incredible ease? No problem just slap Manaphy on the team since it doesn't have an opportunity cost anyways!

I know Pokemon like Zard Y and Kyurem-B can do some serious damage to stall as well, but both get significantly worn down by hazards, while the former costs a Mega Evolution. In defense, many will say that stall will infest the meta if we ban Manaphy, but OU already has sickening amount of wallbreakers that make stall teams cry, in Zard Y, SD Zard X, Kyurem B, Mega Heracross, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Medicham, Mega Metagross and so on. Getting rid of the most problematic Pokemon to stall would do justice for playstyle because it is really struggling to keep up with balance and bulky offense in terms of viability. Yes I know it does not fare well against offense due to it's speed tier, but it can still run items like Wacan Berry to take a hit from Thundurus and take it out with Ice Beam and it has enough natural bulk to take a hit and bring something down in the process. Manaphy may not be an S rank threat in the viability rankings, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's not broken. For example, BW Reuniclus is deemed broken by many in that metagame, yet it only resides in A (by no means am I saying the two are similar, just stating that suspects don't have to come from the S ranks). Everyone is shouting for an Altaria suspect or retest on Megagross, but Manaphy has no positive influence whatsoever and wholeheartedly deserves to be suspected before those two.

 

[baddummy]

I'm strongly against a Manaphy suspect. First off, Manaphy does not add to matchup issues at all, what it does is actually ease matchup issues by helping to keep down usage of heavily matchup-based teams, the very goal of which is to cause team preview losses and cause matchup issues in the first place, so taking this into account, I can't really see Manaphy as anything but healthy. In any case, fat teams do have certain options to deal with Manaphy, and even the luxury of hard counters in goth and sp def unaware clef. It's not like defensive teams need any help, the same generic builds are already being spammed high ladder. I don't really see any problem in such a match-up based, thoughtless play style receiving a matchup loss from something supposedly mindless, because the blame lies squarely on the stall player in this instance for not properly preparing for a threat when they do have options available; sp def clef coincidentally does nicely against Kyum-b too, so it's not deadweight or overspecialised at all. While some might claim that stall builds require ingenuity to build, they're all starting to look pretty similar at this point, so rather than just putting VenuTran together, or having the same Sableye teams popping up again and again, maybe it's time to push stall players just a little bit out of their comfort zone if they want to properly prepare for prominent threats in the meta, clearly sp def clef is a mon that ought to be used more. Then again, upset stallers can always try similar matchup based, thoughtless, playstyles such as BP, I'm aware that WhiteQueen has put up an importable, maybe that will be the next way for people to adapt in order to try to climb the ladder without having to actually think about making plays.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

I'm strongly against a Manaphy suspect. First off, Manaphy does not add to matchup issues at all, what it does is actually ease matchup issues by helping to keep down usage of heavily matchup-based teams, the very goal of which is to cause team preview losses and cause matchup issues in the first place, so taking this into account, I can't really see Manaphy as anything but healthy. In any case, fat teams do have certain options to deal with Manaphy, and even the luxury of hard counters in goth and sp def unaware clef. It's not like defensive teams need any help, the same generic builds are already being spammed high ladder. I don't really see any problem in such a match-up based, thoughtless play style receiving a matchup loss from something supposedly mindless, because the blame lies squarely on the stall player in this instance for not properly preparing for a threat when they do have options available; sp def clef coincidentally does nicely against Kyum-b too, so it's not deadweight or overspecialised at all. While some might claim that stall builds require ingenuity to build, they're all starting to look pretty similar at this point, so rather than just putting VenuTran together, or having the same Sableye teams popping up again and again, maybe it's time to push stall players just a little bit out of their comfort zone if they want to properly prepare for prominent threats in the meta, clearly sp def clef is a mon that ought to be used more. Then again, upset stallers can always try similar matchup based, thoughtless, playstyles such as BP, I'm aware that WhiteQueen has put up an importable, maybe that will be the next way for people to adapt in order to try to climb the ladder without having to actually think about making plays.

252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable in Rain: 127-150 (32.2 - 38%)

add in burns its not that hard of a counter. Soft yes, but not hard. Also this isn't even counting modest manaphy either.

 

[jpw234]

I'm strongly against a Manaphy suspect. First off, Manaphy does not add to matchup issues at all, what it does is actually ease matchup issues by helping to keep down usage of heavily matchup-based teams, the very goal of which is to cause team preview losses and cause matchup issues in the first place, so taking this into account, I can't really see Manaphy as anything but healthy. In any case, fat teams do have certain options to deal with Manaphy, and even the luxury of hard counters in goth and sp def unaware clef. It's not like defensive teams need any help, the same generic builds are already being spammed high ladder. I don't really see any problem in such a match-up based, thoughtless play style receiving a matchup loss from something supposedly mindless, because the blame lies squarely on the stall player in this instance for not properly preparing for a threat when they do have options available; sp def clef coincidentally does nicely against Kyum-b too, so it's not deadweight or overspecialised at all. While some might claim that stall builds require ingenuity to build, they're all starting to look pretty similar at this point, so rather than just putting VenuTran together, or having the same Sableye teams popping up again and again, maybe it's time to push stall players just a little bit out of their comfort zone if they want to properly prepare for prominent threats in the meta, clearly sp def clef is a mon that ought to be used more. Then again, upset stallers can always try similar matchup based, thoughtless, playstyles such as BP, I'm aware that WhiteQueen has put up an importable, maybe that will be the next way for people to adapt in order to try to climb the ladder without having to actually think about making plays.

This is a fucking hilariously awful post
How many players freaked out about Greninja (correctly) claiming that it invalidated offensive teams (the same offensive teams that so many players are calling matchup based and you're criticizing stall for this lmao) and said it was way too difficult for offense to deal with since there were only a very small amount of counters and ninja could get past different mons based on the set. Now we've got a mon with zero counters (SpD Unaware Clefable gets Scald burned, straight up loses to the RD set, and is incredibly easy to pressure, have you ever used it against Manaphy?) and ofc the response is "stall is an awful playstyle deal with it" like the hypocrisy is mind-boggling.
I mean all I have to do is look at your post about Greninja

The sheer variety of moves that Greninja can run forces the opponent to constantly make guesses as to the set, at little expense to the Greninja user. Essentially, Greninja puts the user in a favourable situation in almost every matchup other than full stall, because of the sheer number of things it can hit for STAB SE damage, and the guesswork it causes. Unpredictability isn't a characteristic in a pokemon that means it should be banned, but Greninja's level of unpredictability coupled with the aforementioned reasons of speed and unbelievable coverage means it should be.

Like you can literally replace "Greninja" with "Manaphy" here and "full stall" with "HO"

The fact that you say "defensive teams don't need any help" is also hilarious given that stall is disproportionately underrepresented in big tournaments. Just look at for example STour stats:
| 32 | Venusaur | 217 | 6.01% | 53.46% |
| 43 | Sableye | 141 | 3.91% | 51.77% |
| 70 | Chansey | 55 | 1.52% | 45.45% |
| 72 | Gothitelle | 54 | 1.50% | 46.30% |
| 97 | Cresselia | 18 | 0.50% | 38.89% |
I mean half that Venu usage is probably bulky offense, the fact that you would actually say something like stall "doesn't need any help" with a straight face is ridiculous. Hell why not look at SPL too
35 | Skarmory | 10 | 5% | 70%
37 | Sableye | 9 | 5% | 89%
46 | Venusaur | 6 | 3% | 50%
Compare that for yourself to common wallbreakers like Gard, Kyu-B, and Manaphy and get back to me about how good stall is right now

I mean let's talk about what you said about Manaphy, first of all that SpD Clef and Goth are counters, even if this was true since when is two counters to something one of which is a shitmon indicative of a healthy Pokemon (Greninja - P2 anybody?). SpD Clef doesn't even beat RD/Rest and Unaware gets badly pressured by Scald burns + random Manaphy partners. And Goth is not a counter roflmao

Calcs

+3 252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 168 HP / 0 SpD Gothitelle: 252-297 (78 - 91.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Gothitelle Thunderbolt vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 260-306 (71.2 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Gothitelle Thunderbolt vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 158-188 (43.2 - 51.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Specs Goth switches in on TG, gets 2HKOed by Scald with a good chance of being OHKOed with chip damage and doesn't even kill Mana, Scarf Goth dies even easier since it isn't bulky and basically does half health, the best you're hoping for is to switch in Scarf Trick Goth (already a bad set) onto a Mana that doesn't use TG and cripple the Manaphy while losing your Scarf, like that's the absolute best case scenario.

maybe it's time to push stall players just a little bit out of their comfort zone if they want to properly prepare for prominent threats in the meta, clearly sp def clef is a mon that ought to be used more. Then again, upset stallers can always try similar matchup based, thoughtless, playstyles such as BP, I'm aware that WhiteQueen has put up an importable, maybe that will be the next way for people to adapt in order to try to climb the ladder without having to actually think about making plays.

You honestly sound like a guy who used a shitty team with no wallbreakers and lost to stall twice on ladder jesus christ the fact that this post got any likes is straight up embarassing

Edit:

Manaphy does not add to matchup issues at all, what it does is actually ease matchup issues by helping to keep down usage of heavily matchup-based teams, the very goal of which is to cause team preview losses and cause matchup issues in the first place

"Manaphy decreases matchup by 6-0ing a certain subset of teams from team preview"
"the teams it 6-0s are teams I don't like or prepare for though (despite the fact that there are >10 ridiculously strong wallbreakers mega and non-mega in the tier) so it's okay"

 

[Hootie]

I'm strongly against a Manaphy suspect. First off, Manaphy does not add to matchup issues at all, what it does is actually ease matchup issues by helping to keep down usage of heavily matchup-based teams, the very goal of which is to cause team preview losses and cause matchup issues in the first place, so taking this into account, I can't really see Manaphy as anything but healthy. In any case, fat teams do have certain options to deal with Manaphy, and even the luxury of hard counters in goth and sp def unaware clef. It's not like defensive teams need any help, the same generic builds are already being spammed high ladder. I don't really see any problem in such a match-up based, thoughtless play style receiving a matchup loss from something supposedly mindless, because the blame lies squarely on the stall player in this instance for not properly preparing for a threat when they do have options available; sp def clef coincidentally does nicely against Kyum-b too, so it's not deadweight or overspecialised at all. While some might claim that stall builds require ingenuity to build, they're all starting to look pretty similar at this point, so rather than just putting VenuTran together, or having the same Sableye teams popping up again and again, maybe it's time to push stall players just a little bit out of their comfort zone if they want to properly prepare for prominent threats in the meta, clearly sp def clef is a mon that ought to be used more. Then again, upset stallers can always try similar matchup based, thoughtless, playstyles such as BP, I'm aware that WhiteQueen has put up an importable, maybe that will be the next way for people to adapt in order to try to climb the ladder without having to actually think about making plays.

Did you say that every stall build should run cresselia and mega latias when landorus was running rampant? The fact that you have to run something like spdef Clefable to stop Manaphy (in other words dedicating a slot to counter it leaving you more open to physical attackers) just shows that Manaphy does contribute to match up issues. Telling people to "get out of your comfort zone" is not how tiering philopsohy should be. That very philosophy is akin to saying "run p2 on your team to handle greninja and you'll be fine!" This isn't even coming from stall player either; in fact I mostly run offense so Manaphy isn't an issue for me, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't suspect for a playstyle that truly struggles. For those that do play stall, many will agree that Manaphy has an unhealthy effect on the meta.