ORAS UU Viability Ranking Thread M3 (READ POST #823)

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Salamence: A+ to S
Azelf: A- to A
Chesnaught: A- to B+
Doublade: B+ to A-
Darmanitan: B+ to B
Arcanine: B to B+
Aromatisse: B to B+
Umbreon: B to B+
Rotom-h: B+

This but I want to talk about Rotom-EzBake
This thing is great right now more so with pidgeot still in the meta and without hyper beam its not touching. The things holding it back from A- which i really really want to be able to place it in, are the weakness to rocks and weakness to toxic/ being worn down easily with no real recovery. These can be remedied by team support but thats not what determines the rank. I also want to note its Scarf set which allows it to take on the likes of mega Beedrill and Aerodactyl (if its not running 252 jolly which why would they) and has great utility in trick to put a stop to setup mons like Snorlax. Normally though when you run this set you cant switch into pidgeot too many times so beware of confuse hax.
 
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Let's try this again,

Blissey for B/B+

I don't know the arguments for why it's so low in the rankings but I assume they go along the lines of 1. this is a meta dominated by physical attackers 2. The special attackers Bliss walls still get their jobs done (Toise Spins, Nido Rocks etc) 3. It is only good on stall and stall isn't great right now.

Addressing 1. Stall needs to deal with everything you might have to face. This includes special attackers which still exist in this tier. Bliss loses to many (Azelf, Infernape, Trick Specs) but serves as a great blanket check to all of them.

Addressing 2. I think Shankovich dealt with this a while back. All Blissey should be running Stealth Rocks. This is its most viable set because it can use Nido Toise Emp etc as set-up bait for itself. So Blissey can use rocks to turn the tables on the opponent who expects passive submission. I run rocks on all my Blisseys now. With rocks blissey beats toise which is the tiers best spinner right now.

Addressing 3. "It is only good on stall and stall isn't great right now" is a misleading statement. Blissey is mandatory on stall if you're not running curse lax. The clerical/rocks/wishing roles (in addition to the fact it is a blanket check to special attackers) free up other teamslots, so you have a wider range of pokemon to check the broken shit in this tier that it is more important than ever for stall to beat. (#cagethebird) Lax is probably better than Blissey right now but that's it's only competition and that's all the way up in A leaving Blissey plenty of room to move up.

Stall itself is better than people think, it's just that in this restrictive meta most people are forced to run one of two team archetypes (in general): Bliss/Suicune/Fighting Check/Bird Check/back-up Mamo check/Filler and a second one involving Snorlax which I don't have much experience with. Stall itself actually does pretty well within its restrictions, and since blissey plays a key role there I think it deserves to move up.
 
Is Arcanine finally moving up? If so, I totally agree with the ranking. But I still feel that Snorlax should move up. If you can take care of fighting types and trick users (Crobat takes care of both for the most part). Then this thing has great potential to wreck house. It can set up on quite a few mons (a few more than it should be able to thanks to thick fat's extra padding), and if you don't properly prepare for it (with either a trick user, fighting type, or the ever annoying whimsicott) then good luck trying to kill the damn thing (I speak from both sides here). I know I've been hammering away at this for some time now, but I honestly think the thing deserves it. FATLAX FOR A+ PLEASE
Edit: speaking mainly of curselax, as it's by far the most used Snorlax
 
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Euphonos

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Salamence: A+ to S
I'd like to support this one because of sheer versatility as it could fit into most teams fulfilling different roles with ease. On one instance, a player would easily exploit Salamence's host of resistances, hence he could be considered as a Defensive Dragon (and if his team lacks a Wish Passer, Salamence is one of the best in doing that job). On another instance, a player would easily exploit Salamence's great Attacking stats. There are a lot of possibilities a player can do with Salamence, and it's up to his/her discretion as to how he is going to use it.

Rotom-H: B to A-
I'd like to support it much higher because this Pokemon grants a unique host of resistances coupled with 50/107/107 Defenses, which allows it to switch in to some of the most threatening Pokemon in the metagame, such as Mega Pidgeot and Mamoswine. I feel like the Choice Specs is the most potent weapon among all the sets in existence, but I will not underestimate its Defensive sets, either.
 
Short on time, but I'm nominating Meloetta to B+ or A-. Brought up the SubCM set in the last thread, but it didn't get a lot of traction. I'll have more replays later tonight once I get back from work and remember to save one or two, but it bops stall hard and Roar Empoleon is one of like three real counters to it. It also eats balance possibly harder than it does stall.
 
  • Cresselia: A to A-. Probably the most controversial thing I have on my list. Cresselia is still quite good, but I'm finding it harder and harder to fit on teams. Reuniclus is flat out better at the bulky CM and stallbreaking set, and P2 gives Cress some fierce competition in terms of just being a generally good wall. LO Hydreigon's popularity also really puts a damper on Cresselia right now. Don't get me wrong, I think Cress is still great, I just think its moment as the top defensive 'mon in the tier has waned a bit, especially with P2 as popular as it is right now.
Truly controversial m8. I don't support Cress drop. I've never used Cress until somedays ago. I've been playing with Omfuga's Gligar + P2 core, and while very effective, I found it to be kind of underwhelming over the ladder sometimes, as sometimes you will get to that Knock Off/Fighting STAB situation, where the odds aren't in your favor. So I looked for something else to play that won't be so weak to Knock Off and I found that Empoleon + Cresselia is actually a huge defensive core for balance teams. I'm using standard Defensive Cress with Twave support, just like a P2 would, but I'd say it works way better than P2 did. Solid answer to almost every mon in this tier, she can tank all physicals mons P2 would + fighting types. Against things like Entei or Mamoswine she is even better, since she can tank Mamo's Knock Off and recover in the same turn, while stats like burn doesn't hurt much with Leftover's passive recover, something P2 or Gligar only dreams about. Without too much (or sometimes any) SpD investment, she can also tanks the likes of M-Pidgeot and start spread paralyze. She is a blanket check to almost everything in the tier, as there isn't much that OHKO it (Specs Hydreigon takes max 80%, Band Krook takes max 75% and M-Bee U-turn takes about 60% lol), while giving full support to the rest of a team. And we are not even talking about other sets like Dual Screens or CM! So leave Cresselia A rank.

edit: others things discussed along this new thread

I support:
Salamence to S Rank.
Mega Swampert to A+ Rank.
Azelf to A Rank.
Doublade to A- Rank.
Rotom-H and Umbreon to B- Rank.
Blissey to B Rank.

I do not support:
Snorlax rise from A -> A+
Forretress drop from A -> A-/B+
Darmanitan drop from B+ -> B
Aromatisse rise from B -> B+

everything else i do not have an opinion but i would like to see some discussion over Ark9, Chesnaught and Meloetta specially

Doublade to A-, here is a nomination that I fully support. I've been toying with Doublade earlier and I found that it fit as a glue on a lot of teams. Tanking hits like there is no tomorrow, it also offers offensive pressure and if played right, can act as a wincon depending on matchups. Pair it with Hydreigon something to tank special hits and knock off, and ur done for a day. Pretty antimeta I'd say.


Mega Swampert to A+. "Mega slot cost" well ur not burning ur mega slot when taking Mega Swamp for a ride since Mega Swampert is crazy good. I took all my reqs with it in a bulky offense team and it completely annihilate everything in his way. I also got destroyed by one in a stall team a few days ago. Heck, even balance buildings have a good time with it as a SR setter. It fits fine in every playstyle and does a great job in all of them.
 
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Hogg

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My experiences have been just the opposite: unless I'm specifically looking for something to block fighting spam, I find P2 overall more useful than Cress as far as the Thunder Wave set goes. While the passive recovery from Lefties is nice, the low PP on Moonlight has managed to bite me in the ass more than once, and while neither 'mon has anything resembling decent offensive presence without a boost, P2 at least has good enough coverage to 2HKO many offensive threats.

That said, I won't argue that Cress has some cool other options like Lunar Dance and Screens (though again, I find the CM set is mostly outclassed by Reuniclus in this meta). I guess on their merit, Cresselia can probably stand to remain A-rank instead of dropping to A-. I've just found Cresselia less reliable than it once was in this meta, and find P2 easier to fit on most teams.

(But really, the biggest reason I prefer P2 is because Feraligatr scares the shit out of me...)
 
Ok. Gonna go ahead and make some changes that most people are unanimous on. Namely:


Rotom-h: B to B+
Umbreon: B to B+
Azelf: A- to A
Arcanine: B to B+
Salamence: A+ to S


Also, to keep discussion going, I'd prefer if you guys talked about the same pokemon. For example, there's discussion of moving Forretress, but only a few people have suggested it so far, so there's not much I can do. That being said, here are some pokemon that haven't had sufficient discussion yet:

Forretress (A to A- or B+)
Snorlax (A to A+)
Mega Pert (A to A+)
Doublade (B+ to A-)
Blissey (B to B+)
Meloetta (B to B+)


Note that a lot of these changes 100% going to happen. For example, considering overwhelming support for Darmanitan to stay in its position, I won't be moving it down. Please try to elaborate in your posts as, the better your post is, the more likely the pokemon is to change positions.

And finally, please don't just post "agree" or "do not agree".... If you feel passionately about 1 nomination, write about that one. It only takes 2 sentences to write a brief reasoning for each nom, and truthfully, I probably won't acknowledge your post if you just say "agree" or "disagree".
 
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doublade is overdue, blissey is way overdue, and snorlax is very deserving of a move. those 3 I would agree on and don't feel the need to talk about at all since they've already been talked about.

Megapert is the next most important to happen for me, since it has multiple roles, all of which are incredibly well done: it can serve as an offensive SR user with the offensive SR set which is great and has been great since the start of ORAS, it can serve as a sweeper on its own with RD (a set which is incredibly threatening and probably most of the reason it should move up) and it can serve as a defensive check to dangerous pokemon like Entei, Chandelure, Rotom-H and Mega Aerodactyl with its defensive set which fits very well on defensive teams. Great pokemon, one of the best in the tier, should move up.

Forretress I'm not sure I agree with, I may I have to give it some more thought or I may have to be strongly persuaded in either direction. While it gives arguably more utility than any other pokemon in the tier in terms of miscellaneous support, it's so incredibly easy to setup on if you're not a fast sweeper weak to Gyro Ball, and it only has one move to directly deal damage, unless you run Toxic or Counter. Its passivity is what drives it into a wall in terms of effectiveness, because despite the fact that it serves as a SR user, a spikes setter, a spinner, a bulky pivot, and a Slurpuff check all at once, the utility it provides can all be overshadowed by simply how passive it is. However, if I had to choose, I'd say it should stay A rank just because it provides overwhelming team support, whether it be a suicide hazard setter on offense or a bulky pivot and hazard setter and hazard remover on balance or stall.

Meloetta is the last nomination, and again I'm not deadset on moving it up or keeping it where it is. It's a very good pokemon in the tier which I haven't had the ability to use very often if at all, but its SubCM set is probably the one that warrants it a rise. SubCM Meloetta is a very good asset to frankly any team archetype because it does so much work against stall, and while the tier is filled with balance-breakers, most people do have issues fitting genuine stallbreakers on their teams these days. Meloetta has brilliant natural special bulk, and when that is buffed along with its naturally high special attack it can tear stall teams apart. 100 HP means that it can create 404 HP subs if the Meloetta user wishes to give up speed investment completely, which allows it to sub on stoss from Blissey and break it more easily. Other sets, like Specs and Meloetta-P, can do good damage to offensive teams because it hits unnaturally hard. Its cons are that it doesn't have great natural physical bulk and its speedtier is lacking, and it has a crappy defensive typing. Not to mention it serves as setup bait for certain bulky setup sweepers, most notably CurseLax, who can boost beside her. I honestly couldn't choose a side on this move, just because it's a really solid pokemon but comes with its fair share of cons.

So, in short, I support everything but Forretress and Meloetta.
 
Well, I'll be having fun with this...
Snorlax - see my reasoning above for mostly a description on why curselax alone might be able to make it to A+, though I can say that Belly Drum + Rest + Return + a coverage move/Sleep Talk totally shrekt one poor kid's stall team totally off guard (don't know if it was a bad stall team or what) going to do more testing with this one and hopefully post replays. I'll keep you updated.

Mega Swampert - I haven't had the best success with this one, but it sure as hell works on me. With a killer 150 base attack, great bulk, blazing speed in the rain, and superb coverage, this thing is a monster. Had to make a defensive shaymin sub seed set just so I could handle this thing on my main team. Fully support the rise

Blissey - Always thought B rank was a bit low for this one. Special bulk that even snorlax lusts for, access to stealth rocks, thunder wave, aromatherapy, wish support/softboiled make this thing an annoyance to face on stall teams. Though it does has obvious reasons why this thing stays in the B ranks (that huge defense is almost as good as trevenants). Do support the rise to B+ rank, but never any further.

Doublade - possibly gets the award for second most annoying pokemon for my main team (first goes for Hell's Cottonball AKA: Whimsy) unless a strong special attacker or fire type is present, good luck having an easy time with this one. This is one of the sole reasons I put EQ on curselax.
 
Been a few posts since my nomination for Meloetta, so I'm gonna go ahead and post the replays I was talking about here.

Meloetta uses CroCune for set-up fodder: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-241632912
Once Mega Aggron is out of the way, Meloetta uses Vaporeon as set-up fodder leading to a 6-0: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-241635925
Meloetta turns the mighty P2 into set-up fodder and a poorly-timed switch results in a forfeit: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-241636461

I realize I'm far from the best teambuilder or battler, so I encourage those more skilled than me to try Meloetta out, especially higher on the ladder against better battlers. One comment on Slate's post: I actually give up Special Attack EVs in order to invest more speed. It's very very easy to get up to +2 or even +3, and Meloetta's natural Special Attack (one of the highest in UU, actually) goes a long way with that many boosts.
 
Been a few posts since my nomination for Meloetta, so I'm gonna go ahead and post the replays I was talking about here.

Meloetta uses CroCune for set-up fodder: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-241632912
Once Mega Aggron is out of the way, Meloetta uses Vaporeon as set-up fodder leading to a 6-0: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-241635925
Meloetta turns the mighty P2 into set-up fodder and a poorly-timed switch results in a forfeit: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-241636461

I realize I'm far from the best teambuilder or battler, so I encourage those more skilled than me to try Meloetta out, especially higher on the ladder against better battlers. One comment on Slate's post: I actually give up Special Attack EVs in order to invest more speed. It's very very easy to get up to +2 or even +3, and Meloetta's natural Special Attack (one of the highest in UU, actually) goes a long way with that many boosts.
Unfortunately these battles are very low ladder and your opponents made some obvious mistakes though I did find Meloettas attack power at plus 1 surprisingly strong. I will try out the sub calm mind set and a relic song set near 1500s range to see how it holds up against better pokes. Maybe it is a diamond in the rough...
 

Hogg

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I don't have any replays saved, but I've used both U-turn/Perish Song SpDf Melo and offensive CM + 3 attacks Melo to good effect in mid-high ladder (1500s to low 1600s) and in room tours. It's definitely an underrated threat.
 
I don't have any replays saved, but I've used both U-turn/Perish Song SpDf Melo and offensive CM + 3 attacks Melo to good effect in mid-high ladder (1500s to low 1600s) and in room tours. It's definitely an underrated threat.
Yeah I forgot mention that set! I have seen scarf trick pivot on stall b4 and it works really well. Im curious how the relic song will do in HO.
 

Hogg

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Yeah I forgot mention that set! I have seen scarf trick pivot on stall b4 and it works really well. Im curious how the relic song will do in HO.
I play a lot of semi-stall, and this is the Meloetta set I've used there:

Meloetta @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Perish Song
- Psychic
- Heal Bell
- U-turn

In addition to being a solid pivot and pulling double duty as a cleric, it's a nice way to not be totally crapped on by NP Azelf, who just destroys semi-stall otherwise, plus it's a good answer to other bulky and problematic threats, like last-mon Suicune/Reuniclus. I typically use it alongside Alomomola for a fat cleric core that manages to keep pretty good momentum.

I know Serperior for Uber used a similar set on his stall team, only with TrickSpecs.

So yeah, definitely in favor of a move up to B+ for Melo.
 
I know I'm gonna be /that/ guy, but I'd like to see M-Scept move up a bit. The weakness to ice and the issue with OHKOing things right off the bat is frustrating, but with hazards up and other threats weakened/out of the way, it can come in, mega while still outspeeding and good part of the unboosted meta (And even some of the slower boosted, looking at you Gatr.), then proceed to just clean up.

This is just me, though. Some discussion on the matter would be nice.
 

Cheryl.

Celesteela is Life
I know I'm gonna be /that/ guy, but I'd like to see M-Scept move up a bit. The weakness to ice and the issue with OHKOing things right off the bat is frustrating, but with hazards up and other threats weakened/out of the way, it can come in, mega while still outspeeding and good part of the unboosted meta (And even some of the slower boosted, looking at you Gatr.), then proceed to just clean up.

This is just me, though. Some discussion on the matter would be nice.
i dont use mega scept that much anymore now that mamo the god is in the tier but it could move up as it can absorb volt switches and checks bulky waters without ice beam
 
I've been using Mega Scep a lot recently, and its actually really impressed me. Modest's power is pretty damn impressive, and grass/dragon STABs are so so good in UU. The only resists are steel types and whims, which are typically weak on the specially defensive side- cobalion takes like 38% coming in on energy ball, meaning its unlikely to be able to switch in more than once, offensive whims sets are even 2hko'd on the switch, Doublade again can only typically switch in once...

The issue tends to come with special walls and fatmons, which is why I've found subseed to be a great set. Some like blissey can simply be stalled to death with leech seed + sub, while others like pory really hate the passive damage and find themselves more easily taken advantage of by other mons. When it comes to florges, it only has to be at like 80% switching in on rocks for energy ball to have a good chance to 2hko. I've also found lightning rod pretty clutch in the current meta as volt-turn is popular, and nabbing a boost causes hugggeee issues for many teams as it becomes very difficult to switch into, and can straight-up clean late game.

That said, I'm not entirely sure about it moving up- B+ actually seems like a nice place for it? It's still a very good rank and I think the mons in A- are generally a little better.

(also don't use giga drain it hits like a wet paper towel)
 
Doublade is a pokemon that has really impressed me. It has the raw stats and typing to be a very effective wall even without any form of recovery, coming in repeatedly over the course of the match. It forces switches with its offensive presence and threatens to sweep late-game with swords dance boosted shadow sneaks. Doublade stops many dangerous physical sweepers in their tracks, and while you need to be mindful of stuff like Fire Blast coverage on Salamence you can often play around that. Sacred Sword is also notable for checking curse users nicely.

However, Doublade also has many faults too; it hates knock off, it has trouble dealing with many of the tier's bulky waters, burns utterly ruin it, and it can't really take special hits without a type advantage. If you want to use Doublade early in the match, you'd better be prepared to make some aggressive double-switches because this thing can really sap momentum if your opponent still has good answers to it. As a late-game sweeper it's flummoxed by the relatively common Mega Pidgeot, whose immunity to ghost-type moves and coverage in Heat Wave lets it force Doublade out regardless of how many dances it's gotten off.

However, these flaws can all be mitigated by good play and team support (I find Hydreigon in particular to be a superb teammate for Doublade; they have a lot of synergy that goes beyond their complementary typing), and Doublade's brings a lot to teams who need a bulky stop to big physical threats. I think it's definitely worthy of the rise to A-
 

Wanka

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Yeah I think B+ is a solid spot for mega scept. It is a good mon in the meta game, but it does require a decent amount of support, enough to the point where it is being kept out of the A ranks. B+ is definitely a good spot for it as its ability to outspeed a huge portion of the meta game even when modest and having access to good coverage moves are what makes it the cream of the crop of the B rank mons.

It's really the bulk and it being somewhat one dimensional that is keeping it out. I have not seen the sub seed set in action and I have yet to see someone pull off the SD set so that is where my idea on it being one dimensional comes from.
 
Echoing the A+ sentiment for Mega Swampert from earlier in the week. There's never a time where I felt Mega Pert was useless while laddering. Its effectiveness in its myriad sets puts it closer to the viability of the current A+ rank mons than its current A.
 
I think that Mega Swampet for A+ could warrant some discussion. I've used it a bit recently and found it really easy to get the rain dance off and start cleaning on most all of the current used mons. Those Include Feraligatr, Salamence, Doublade, Passive mons like Forretress and pretty much anything without a strong grass move with 0 hp investment. It has good coverage with only 3 moves and has that ever present waterfall flinch chance.

252 SpA Life Orb Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Swampert: 227-269 (66.5 - 78.8%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Swampert: 148-175 (43.4 - 51.3%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Swampert: 75-90 (21.9 - 26.3%)

*forgot porygon was 3tanky5pert
 
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Actually, PDef P2 can very easily Recover stall you out of turns of Rain. You would need three flinches in a row in order to KO it without it healing or Toxicking.
 
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