ORAS UU Viability Ranking Thread M3 (READ POST #823)

[LeoLancaster]

Tyrantrum to B:

Tyrantrum's advantages are weighed down by its several drawbacks.

These drawbacks include but are not limited to:
-Deplorable defensive typing
-Pitiful susceptibility to special attacks
-being outclassed by other wallbreakers

Other Pokemon such as Heracross or even Escavalier make for better wallbreakers, as their presence is more threatening due to their more threatening movepool, attack stats, as well as better offensive typings.

Tyrantrum's defensive typing is not deplorable, it quad resists Fire which makes it an excellent check to Entei when paired with a Heal Bell user, and it resists Flying which makes it an excellent Crobat check. Could it be better? Sure, but Tyrantrum is an offensive Pokemon, it doesn't need to have an great defensive typing to succeed.

It's susceptibility to special attacks is a hurdle, but on the flipside it has a base Defense stat of 119, allowing it to, as mentioned before, check physical Fire- and Flying-types, and be somewhat difficult to force out by physical attackers. For example, Mega Aerodactyl's Earthquake does max 75%. Could it's defensive stats be better? Sure, but again, Tyrantrum is an offensive Pokemon, it's defensive capabilities are not the primary way it succeeds.

Finally, you're really underestimating the power of Choice Band Head Smash. It's literally bring a Rock resist or die. You don't need a deep movepool (although having coverage options such as Earthquake and Superpower, as well as a secondary STAB, is nice), a sky-high attack stat (although 121 is pretty great already), or great STAB coverage (even though Rock is usually enough by itself) when you 2HKO Cresselia with a neutral hit. And to top it all off, you can patch up that mediocre Speed stat with Rock Polish, and still 2HKO Cress and Suicune with just a bit of chip damage and a Life Orb.

Obviously Tyrantrum does have it's flaws, such as it's low Speed and, as you said, poor Special Defense, but you're overvaluing these flaws and ignoring the sheer spammability and power of Head Smash.

 

[psVoltage]

Yeah I gotta agree that CB headsmash is what its niche is (rock polish is mediocre and lacks power imo) Its typing isnt that horrible and it can absolutely destroy fat teams or teams with the ground/ fighting type gone.

Tyrantrum's defensive typing is not deplorable, it quad resists Fire which makes it an excellent check to Entei when paired with a Heal Bell user, and it resists Flying which makes it an excellent Crobat check. Could it be better? Sure, but Tyrantrum is an offensive Pokemon, it doesn't need to have an great defensive typing to succeed.

It's susceptibility to special attacks is a hurdle, but on the flipside it has a base Defense stat of 119, allowing it to, as mentioned before, check physical Fire- and Flying-types, and be somewhat difficult to force out by physical attackers. For example, Mega Aerodactyl's Earthquake does max 75%. Could it's defensive stats be better? Sure, but again, Tyrantrum is an offensive Pokemon, it's defensive capabilities are not the primary way it succeeds.

Finally, you're really underestimating the power of Choice Band Head Smash. It's literally bring a Rock resist or die. You don't need a deep movepool (although having coverage options such as Earthquake and Superpower, as well as a secondary STAB, is nice), a sky-high attack stat (although 121 is pretty great already), or great STAB coverage (even though Rock is usually enough by itself) when you 2HKO Cresselia with a neutral hit. And to top it all off, you can patch up that mediocre Speed stat with Rock Polish, and still 2HKO Cress and Suicune with just a bit of chip damage and a Life Orb.

Obviously Tyrantrum does have it's flaws, such as it's low Speed and, as you said, poor Special Defense, but you're overvaluing these flaws and ignoring the sheer spammability and power of Head Smash.

Basically I want to echo this

 

[Schpoonman]

You realize Jolly LO Head smash 2HKOs Suicune after Rocks? It doesn't lack power at all. I would like to highlight something Leo said.

It's literally bring a Rock resist or die.

Even that's not entirely accurate. It really should read "bring a BULKY Rock resist". Here's what Tyrantrum does to offensive Mega Swampert, which is something you can very easily do since you outspeed Swampert outside of rain.

252 Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Swampert: 161-189 (47 - 55.2%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO

You need to resist Head Smash, have significant bulk, and invest in physical Defense in order to safely check or counter Tyrantrum. Cobalion fares better, not needing investment, but only because he 4x resists Head Smash. Lucario still takes upwards of 41%, despite the 4x resist. Keep Tyrantrum in A-.

EDIT: I was talking about Head Smash specifically, but you're right about Superpower as well.

 

[Darvin]

Cobalion fares better, not needing investment, but only because he 4x resists Head Smash.

Even Cobalion fears the band set:

252 Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 300-354 (92.8 - 109.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 328-388 (101.5 - 120.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Back when I ran CB Tyrantrum, I often got easy KO's because of predictable Krookodile or Cobalion switch-ins that just got nailed by Superpower. A banded superpower hits just hard enough to get some key OHKO's, whereas Earthquake leaves threats like Cobalion hanging by a thread and able to force Tyrantrum out. Tyrantrum's poor defenses and speed limit its ability to switch in and stay in, which is really the only thing preventing it from being outright broken because every turn this thing is out launching attacks it's ripping holes in the enemy team. It should definitely remain A- in spite of the team support it requires.

 

[Super Mario Bro]

Also, to keep discussion going, I'd prefer if you guys talked about the same pokemon. For example, there's discussion of moving Forretress, but only a few people have suggested it so far, so there's not much I can do. That being said, here are some pokemon that haven't had sufficient discussion yet:

Blissey (B to B+)

Just a nitpick, but Blissey is still listed under B- in the OP. Assuming you did not intend to type "(B- to B)", you might want to fix that.

 

[Yugi]

Can i ask some admins to provide the reasoning behind Hydreigon to S.I mean i agree but i didnt see a reasoning,and i want to see one.

 

[Lilligant for OU]

Can i ask some admins to provide the reasoning behind Hydreigon to S.I mean i agree but i didnt see a reasoning,and i want to see one.

Hydreigon's high base Special Attack and good overall stats are part of what makes it an important threat in the UnderUsed metagame. Hydreigon's typing gives it almost perfect neutral coverage with its STAB moves; the only type that resists both is Fairy. Defensively, Hydreigon's typing has some great resistances and, taking Levitate into consideration, two immunities. Hydreigon's movepool is simply fantastic, which makes it a really versatile threat.

 

[Kreme]

Can i ask some admins to provide the reasoning behind Hydreigon to S.I mean i agree but i didnt see a reasoning,and i want to see one.

Reasoning for Hydreigon: its one of the best Scarfers in a metagame where Scarfers are frequently a necessity for many teams. Most importantly, it sets itself apart from fellow potential revenge killers Salamence and Heracross with its access to U-turn, an amazing move for a Scarfer, and unlike Mienshao and Infernape, actually has bulk and a decent typing to take hits with. Its wallbreaking sets are also fantastic. Taunt/Roost@LO is becoming an increasingly popular threat that can shut down stuff like Suicune, while Specs is also a great set to use as seen in several UUPL battles, especially since now that many Florges are running Bold, allowing Hydreigon to 2HKO with Flash Cannon. Overall it has amazing offensive capabilities with no significant flaws or really any drawbacks to using it.

Taken from the old thread when Hydreigon moved to S.

 

[Yugi]

Thank you

 

[sniperr]

Tyrantrum's defensive typing is not deplorable, it quad resists Fire which makes it an excellent check to Entei when paired with a Heal Bell user, and it resists Flying which makes it an excellent Crobat check. Could it be better? Sure, but Tyrantrum is an offensive Pokemon, it doesn't need to have an great defensive typing to succeed.

It's susceptibility to special attacks is a hurdle, but on the flipside it has a base Defense stat of 119, allowing it to, as mentioned before, check physical Fire- and Flying-types, and be somewhat difficult to force out by physical attackers. For example, Mega Aerodactyl's Earthquake does max 75%. Could it's defensive stats be better? Sure, but again, Tyrantrum is an offensive Pokemon, it's defensive capabilities are not the primary way it succeeds.

Finally, you're really underestimating the power of Choice Band Head Smash. It's literally bring a Rock resist or die. You don't need a deep movepool (although having coverage options such as Earthquake and Superpower, as well as a secondary STAB, is nice), a sky-high attack stat (although 121 is pretty great already), or great STAB coverage (even though Rock is usually enough by itself) when you 2HKO Cresselia with a neutral hit. And to top it all off, you can patch up that mediocre Speed stat with Rock Polish, and still 2HKO Cress and Suicune with just a bit of chip damage and a Life Orb.

Obviously Tyrantrum does have it's flaws, such as it's low Speed and, as you said, poor Special Defense, but you're overvaluing these flaws and ignoring the sheer spammability and power of Head Smash.

agreed, I really do think he's underrated. tyrant is insanely strong with pretty solid typing that suits this meta fine. I personally would love to see him moved up.

 

[Lapras!]

Just a nitpick, but Blissey is still listed under B- in the OP. Assuming you did not intend to type "(B- to B)", you might want to fix that.

I think what he means is whether when Blissey moves up it should be B or B+. I personally think B+ because of the incredible amount of utility it provides to stall teams and the large number of roles it can fill with wish, rocks, heal bell, and other great options in its movepool like thunder wave etc. It also pairs well with lots of other fantastic mons like Suicune, Alomo, Forretress, etc. I won't go into further detail right now because of time but that's the idea (also twave bliss has a high chance of beating work up pidge apparently)

 

[Cheryl.]

I want Chandelure to go to A+. Reasons: it has a unique typing, which lets it wall threats such as SubSD Cobalion. It also has incredible power, as a base 145 special attack is nothing to scoff at. It can run a vareity of sets, from Choice Scarf to Choice Specs to a stallbreaker set with SubCM. There are some problems with Chandy though, from SR weakness to not being faster than other Scarfers, but I think it has enough good traits for it to rise. Chandelure for A+. (Sorry if it's short im on mobile

 

[Nightingales]

I was gonna nom Clawitzer for C-Rank, but I'm still unsure. It packs a hell of a punch, but it's only really got five moves at best that give it this insane stopping power, it's frail and it's relatively slow. But either the right coverage moves, it packs enough of a punch to 2hko 252/252+ Cress thanks to Mega Launcher, and with hazards and some good team support it can do huge chunks of damage to mons like Blissey and Florges.

Still, I'd want to see some discussion on that because it's a different sort of game entirely.

 

[Lapras!]

I was gonna nom Clawitzer for C-Rank, but I'm still unsure. It packs a hell of a punch, but it's only really got five moves at best that give it this insane stopping power, it's frail and it's relatively slow. But either the right coverage moves, it packs enough of a punch to 2hko 252/252+ Cress thanks to Mega Launcher, and with hazards and some good team support it can do huge chunks of damage to mons like Blissey and Florges.

Still, I'd want to see some discussion on that because it's a different sort of game entirely.

It's forced to run Specs to break through blissey and florges (and sludge wave in florg's case) which basically limits it to a stallbreaking role. It could be an ok stallbreaker but then again there are other, better stallbreakers which aren't 100% dead weight against other playstyles. Any set other than Specs is outclassed by Blastoise and any half decent player should be able to play around specs pretty easily.

 

[Nightingales]

Which is why I'm nomming it for C, really.

 

[Wanka]

As much as I do love chandy and I think it is a very versatile mon with its ability to run different sets and run them all well, there are some things keeping it out of A+. Its sub par bulk is one of them. Not only is it sub par bulk, but it lacks the natural speed to make up for it. Base 80 outside of being scarfed is not quick by any means and the SR weakness on top of that really does not help it out. All of those things combined are what I think is keeping it out. Ghost/Fire is an amazing offensive typing however and its ability lets it be a potential check for entei which is really nice. It definitely stands out from the A mons though with its raw power and versatility.

Getting hard walled by P2 is not the best trait to have nowadays either. You have to rely on trick to beat it.

 

[Tipsy Russian]

I'm gonna nominate Druddigon for B-. The reasoning behind this is that it is a very underrated Rocks setter and it has a 2 good abilities but all are usable. Rocky helm + rough skin paired with pretty meh defense is useful to punish uturn shenanigans and physical attackers. Glare is very viable on defensive sets to add paralyze support to mons who enjoy it. Also, there is a surprise factor in the fact that it gets pursuit which can be good at trapping stuff, i.e. scarf chandy locked into energy ball or fire blast. THe other usable ability it gets is sheer force and paired with an amazing movepool and 120 attack, leads to a pretty great offensive mon with access to priority in sucker punch, the only thing that sucks about drudd is the fact that is so slow.

 

[Hogg]

I'm gonna nominate Druddigon for B-. The reasoning behind this is that it is a very underrated Rocks setter and it has a 2 good abilities but all are usable. Rocky helm + rough skin paired with pretty meh defense is useful to punish uturn shenanigans and physical attackers. Glare is very viable on defensive sets to add paralyze support to mons who enjoy it. Also, there is a surprise factor in the fact that it gets pursuit which can be good at trapping stuff, i.e. scarf chandy locked into energy ball or fire blast. THe other usable ability it gets is sheer force and paired with an amazing movepool and 120 attack, leads to a pretty great offensive mon with access to priority in sucker punch, the only thing that sucks about drudd is the fact that is so slow.

Definitely agreeing with this. I started using Druddigon as my rock setter on an offensive team that was having trouble with VoltTurn. Rocky Helmet + Rough Skin is a great way to discourage U-turn spam, and it hits surprisingly hard with base 120 Attack.

Here's the set I've been using:

Druddigon @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 236 HP / 252 Atk / 20 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Dragon Claw
- Fire Punch
- Glare

20 Speed because why not outspeed Mega-Aggron? I mean it's not like I can do much to it, but the 5 extra points of HP weren't necessarily doing me any favors. Druddigon's bulk isn't winning any awards, but 77/90/90 certainly isn't bad for the tier and it can almost always reliably get rocks up and often get some nice Glare support in. The fact that any contact moves will shave off almost 30% of the opposing mon's HP has done a lot for discouraging minor momentum moves like U-turn.

I'll try to get some replays up later, but I think B- sounds like a decent place for Druddigon.

 

[zben]

Why amonguss is so underrated ? This thing takes care of a lot of thing in the tiers, Spore + Foulplay + clear smog + regen stop a lot of set up mons : Feraligatr,Salamence, suicune, snorlax , Lucario , slurpuff, doublade.
It takes care of fairies, fighting , grass and water mons easily.
It's a good pivot against voltswitch cores, the max def takes 30% from a uturn of beedril so with the regen it's nothing.
Spore and Regen make amongus different than others wall, it's not free way to crobat or powerful mons like pidgeot because they simply immediately get spored. After using spore, you can predict easier the next switch and gain a momentum.
This thing has an incredible bulk and he's hard to take down thx to regen : (funny calc)

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Salamence Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 316-372 (73.1 - 86.1%)
+2 252 Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 363-427 (84 - 98.8%)
244+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 266-314 (61.5 - 72.6%)
240 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 328-385 (75.9 - 89.1%)
80 Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 234-276 (54.1 - 63.8%)

You can take the risk to stay and ( spore , break boost with clear smog or punish with foul play) for a lot of mons .s
It's not a passive defensive mon, and he's always useful, he should be more popular.

 

[psVoltage]

As much as I do love chandy and I think it is a very versatile mon with its ability to run different sets and run them all well, there are some things keeping it out of A+. Its sub par bulk is one of them. Not only is it sub par bulk, but it lacks the natural speed to make up for it. Base 80 outside of being scarfed is not quick by any means and the SR weakness on top of that really does not help it out. All of those things combined are what I think is keeping it out. Ghost/Fire is an amazing offensive typing however and its ability lets it be a potential check for entei which is really nice. It definitely stands out from the A mons though with its raw power and versatility.

Getting hard walled by P2 is not the best trait to have nowadays either. You have to rely on trick to beat it.

Sub CM beats porygon if you dont run flash fire and its not like its other abilities are horrible.

 

[Wanka]

Sub CM beats porygon if you dont run flash fire and its not like its other abilities are horrible.

I do not think I have ever seen a non flash fire chandelure on the ladder in god knows how long. Flash fire is by far the best ability and the only one that should really be getting usage. Acting as a potential check to powerhouses like arcanine and entei is a really nice thing to have.

That being said, its other abilities do not have a place in reasoning whether or not chandy should move up because they just are not relevant at the moment.

 

[DaSpoofy]

Definitely agreeing with this. I started using Druddigon as my rock setter on an offensive team that was having trouble with VoltTurn. Rocky Helmet + Rough Skin is a great way to discourage U-turn spam, and it hits surprisingly hard with base 120 Attack.

Here's the set I've been using:

Druddigon @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 236 HP / 252 Atk / 20 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Dragon Claw
- Fire Punch
- Glare

20 Speed because why not outspeed Mega-Aggron? I mean it's not like I can do much to it, but the 5 extra points of HP weren't necessarily doing me any favors. Druddigon's bulk isn't winning any awards, but 77/90/90 certainly isn't bad for the tier and it can almost always reliably get rocks up and often get some nice Glare support in. The fact that any contact moves will shave off almost 30% of the opposing mon's HP has done a lot for discouraging minor momentum moves like U-turn.

I'll try to get some replays up later, but I think B- sounds like a decent place for Druddigon.

People seemed to use this a lot in Conquest as it was a nice rock setter with glare. It kinda mimics the rocky helmet Garchomp which is very effective in OU. People underestimate a rocky helmet user as it can save you from a physical sweeper. Works very nice with druddigon with its resistances. Also punishes u turn :O! Cool poke and will work with the meta quite nicely.

 

[psVoltage]

I do not think I have ever seen a non flash fire chandelure on the ladder in god knows how long. Flash fire is by far the best ability and the only one that should really be getting usage. Acting as a potential check to powerhouses like arcanine and entei is a really nice thing to have.

That being said, its other abilities do not have a place in reasoning whether or not chandy should move up because they just are not relevant at the moment.

I'm not saying they are relevant at all, rather if you wanted to use chandelure and are really worried about P2 thats a solution.

 

[DaSpoofy]

Flame body actually is helpful against beedrill js

 

[Lilligant for OU]

So forgive my retardation about Tyrantrum (that's why I deleted the post) but I have to ask this question:

Why in the hell is Mega Glalie B rank?