Resource RU Viability Ranking Thread: Abomasnow and Slowking Discussion

[HypnoEmpire]

I find Mega Audino's offensive set to be its greatest appeal. It actually hits pretty solidly despite its deceptively low SpA (mostly due to its awesome coverage). Its bulk is also gargantuan, being able to take a High Jump Kick from Adamant LO Hitmonlee without any investment in bulk whatsoever. I ran it as a sort of blanket check and even as an emergency check to, well, most attackers that don't run a strong super effective STAB move. The only neutral hit that I know that can OHKO a max HP Mega Audino is Adamant CB Medicham lol, so it's pretty safe most of the time. It has cool stuff like Healing Wish and Magic Coat which have some nice uses.

Regular Audino is just normal typing as well, so switching in before getting a chance to mega evolve is a no no.

Well, of course pre-Mega Audino won't be taking some of the same hits that Mega Audino can, but regular Audino actually is pretty nice for scouting and pivoting thanks to Regenerator, and it can be relatively healthy when it mega evolves later. It's also safer vs many Steel-types if it holds off mega evolving to get off a quick Fire Blast, then switches out to get back a lot of the health it potentially lost.

However, I've been having some trouble running it as of late since I usually save my Fairy-type slot for something that can more reliably counter Scrafty like Togetic and Aromatisse and I always want to have at least one good check to it on my teams. I know there are Pokemon like Gurdurr which can do this, but I feel like this somewhat limits how splashable Mega Audino could be. I agree with it dropping for the most part.

I also have no idea how Mesprit is similar to Mega Audino at all except that it also gets Healing Wish.

um how does toxic spikes pressure Cobalion since Cobalion is part steel and it is immune to it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he's saying that if Cobalion wants to switch into Drapion and beat it, it needs to use Swords Dance and Close Combat since if the Drapion Earthquakes as Cobalion comes in, the Defense drop from going straight for Close Combat will allow Drapion to KO with the second Earthquake and if Drapion is running bulk, it can potentially live a +2 Close Combat and KO back.

 

[Lord Death Man]

I was saying that, in the situation Cobalion switches in as you use Toxic Spikes, you can EQ regardless of what it tries to do, and if it doesn't SD you can just keep EQing, and if you have enough bulk (like that spread I posted) Cobalion loses if it doesn't go for 2 SDs which can be counter intuitive for a lot of people. If you EQ as it switches in, with the spread I posted (which I think is good rn ;_;) Drapion wins. Battle Armor can be an absolute clutch ability that you'll never notice in these situations. The big flaw is, really, that you need Black Sludge and then auto-lose to Dugtrio teams, but that's true for a lot of things and Drapion's central flaw is that fighting and ground types (flygon, steelix, dugtrio) are all over the place), but it also synergizes very well with a lot of them and that's why I think it should stay B+ and not move up or down.

I don't really think a whole lot of other sets are particularly viable but the SD + Toxic Spikes set is very good at what it needs to do on offense, and Toxic Spikes can be so valuable to offense (as is a way to get rid of them), especially since 2 layers mean that Cobalion tears through teams that don't have like, Rotom-S or Pelipper.

Also, Dugtrio for A or higher. I didn't realize this wasn't here but Dugtrio is really good and Noivern is gone so why hasn't this moved up really? It's still very good and it sucks that it can't auto-win matches for Reuniclus anymore but you know, it still clutches matches for any decent wincon by being stupid. I would say more but everyone knows what Dugtrio does and why it's dumb.

 

[Froggyboy]

to D:
With Eviolite it is nearly on par with Reuiniclus' bulk, has the same SpA of it in 125, same abilities, and it only loses out on Focus Blast from Reun. However is extremely Knock Off weak and is one-dimensional, so D rank imo, since it's a mini Reuniclus.

to B+:
In a meta filled with physical threats, having Intimidate plus respectable bulk is great. Let's count the Pokemon Hitmontop checks. Scrafty, Cobalion(watch out for sd), Glalie, Durant, Trapper Houndoom, Rhyperior, Sneasel, Tyrantrum, Flygon, SD Virizion, and that's just limited to A and S rank threats. Plus having spin is nice. Reun and Noivern leaving is good for it, since it both raises the viability of other Fighting types it checks/counters, plus not having something that can OHKO or set up on you on almost every team is nice.

to C+:
What does this even do? It's a defogger that loses to every rocker in the tier except Bronzong, is weak offensively, and has average bulk. Reuniclus leaving sucks for it since it walled the CM set, even the TR set had a hard time getting around it. It's limited to one set, which is its Defog set, which imo, is mediocre at best. Overall, it's just a bad mon in this Fighting meta, and imo is on level with Golbat, so move it down.

 

[MrAldo]

Speaking of Golbat...

I feel this thing should keep moving up cause it is just better than Golbat and far more useful in practice than many of the stuff in C+. In a metagame where fighting types thrive pelipper makes a really useful asset for many teams providing hazard removal on a mon that actually resist fighting type attacks (sadly flygon, even with a phys def spread just doesnt cut it). U-turn is a nice asset, reliable recovery, handling cobalion which is the God of RU right now pretty well and checking emboar, durant, escavalier, mega steelix and soft checking other fighting types is really nice. Been enjoying running air slash/hurricane in certain cases to hit opposing fighting types for some good damage. I feel it deserves to move up a bit more, to B-. Another good move would be dropping Golbat to C rank since I dont think golbat is on pair with pelipper to be honest, would love some emphasis on it.

I feel this deserve to move up too. Similar to all fighting types, this thing just gets better but while it is not the premier fighting type to pick up in this metagame, the ability of this mon to act as an offensive glue to help soft-check a lot of physical threats is absolutely remarkable. Mega Glalie, tyrantrum locked on anything not called outrage, cobalion, virizion among others; gurdurr can handle them pretty well on 1v1 situations thanks to drain punch and having strong priority. Also, I think it is better than most of B- rank tbh. B rank to me

Just to spark some more discussion I guess. Not quite sold on Mega Audino dropping but will try to comment on that later on.

 

[Natural Talent]

to A rank:

Simply put it delphox is one of the most threatening pokemon in the meta being able to pull it's weight vs every playstyle depending on the set. All-out-attacker life orb variants with dual stab and 2 coverage moves threaten balance and stall with delphox's good coverage being able to hit a wide range of threats for super effective damage and it can also fair well vs offense with a base 104 speed which is only outsped by 6 relevant non scarfed pokes (virizion, cobalion, durant, accelgor, jolteon, sneasel, and dugtrio being the only relevant things that naturally outspeed it.) The scarf set doesn't do well vs balance but it does best vs offense and it can revenge virizion and cobalion 2 very threatening to offense. It can even revenge kill non roseli berry scrafty with dazzling gleam if you really want to. Calm mind sets are weapons vs stall and balance being able to wallbreak very effectively and still dies work vs fast teams. Another perk is unlike other wallbreakers it has a decent defensive typing resisting fighting, grass, fairy, fire, steel, ice, and psychic all of which are relevant and ice shards from glalie, mach punches from Lee won't stop it. Dugtrio and houndoom not being as common is also good but you can run hidden power ground for houndoom and it also hits opposing delphox. It has flaws such as pursuit and sucker punch weakness, a stealth rock weakness and physical fraility but the pros of delphox outweigh it's cons. For these reasons I nominate delphox to A rank.

I am actually agreeing with this. Delphox is an upcoming threat. It beats Cobalion in most scenarios, has dazzling gleam for scrafty and if cm psyshock it can most likely beat jellicent. It hits almost the whole team barring houndoom, but has nice speed and great power to make up for it. I'm going to take this a step further and say it deserves A+. It can 2HKO most of the tier with LO sets. Choice Specs sets also hit hard , while scarf sets can revenge kill and even clean up in some scenarios. Only set backs are Dugtrio and Steath Rocks but that doesn't outshine it's useful nice and it's strength versus most of the tier.

 

[phantom]

A couple nominations of my own:

up to --> A rank

Tangrowth is pretty incredible at the moment, as an offensive Pokemon anyway. It's LO set is such a great nuke while acting as a great offensive check to a variety of threatening Pokemon including Flygon, Jellicent, Mega Steelix, etc. A great ability in Regenerator makes a swell pivot and access to Sleep Powder makes it all the more annoying. Definitely its defining feature is how anti-meta it is. It can tango with so much of the S/A+ rank, which makes it a very solid Pokemon when taking this into account with its overall assets.

up to --> A rank

Sigilyph is also an extremely good Pokemon at the moment. It's capable of shattering a lot of defensive cores such as Alomomola + Steel-type single handedly, while having a great Speed tier to match up well against offense and excellent coverage moves to suit your teams' needs. The best thing about it is how consistent and versatile it is. You can make it a very annoying Pokemon against offense when using Focus sash or a mean stallbreaker with Calm Mind... or both! Just ask Meru ;3

 

[Cheryl.]

I want to nominate Bouffalant for a rank,preferably C or C- rank. With the rising usage of grass types like amoonguss and tangrowth that like to spread sleep, bouffalant can come in and just get a beautiful Sap Sipper boost. It has a very nice 110 attack that hits pretty hard unboosted, and is even more powerful after an Swords Dance or SapSipper boost. it also has 95/95/95 defenses, which allow it to take a hit or two. There are problems for it though. It is a normal type in a fighting type meta, so naturally it has problems with sweeping while they are around. It also has bad speed, so it is very hard to sweep against offense with Bouffalant, but thats why im only nomming it for C rank. personally, while it is a niche pokemon, it has it's uses, so Bouffalant for C rank. Sorry if its short im on mobile

 

[col49]

i'd also throw my support behind gurdurr, it's fire atm; it isn't actively appreciative of the various bulkymons, nor some of their counterplays (specs tang / sigi), but it does body bulky offense a lot of the time, and retains significant utility value.

another pokemon i've been liking more an more that i'd like to see ranked is poliwrath, who i really like atm; although being jelli food is meh, and the obvious relations to stuff with more 'blanket use' like momo does no favours here for viability, it has some pretty significant value for what it is. the defensive set is much more 'active' in what it strives to check than momo, given its ability to phaze, and it's handle on stuff like ant, tyrantrum, etc. is a whole lot better than either momo or jelli. usually i'd consider as a decent compression for teams that can't afford or would otherwise be better working with this + alt hazard removal rather than momo / jelli + hitmontop (think maybe wrath / m-lix / togetic / audino / w.e, depends on what kinda dynamic you're looking for here). it's handle on doomer is also one of the best in the tier, which has real value again since dpulse doomer (almost even w/o np, though it'll always help) slices slower squads a lot of the time. the specs set is also rather good, both in compressing some moderate amount of that defensive utility into an offensive 'mon while providing cool ish like a strong-ish vacuum wave, which is also rather nice. as a plus, it can pop off common 'mons that would look to exploit such 'mons (tang, momo, sigi, etc.) really nicely, and although in some cases that might involve connecting with 2 focus blasts, it is somewhat of a worthwhile risk here. i honestly don't think mid b is overly ambitious, but i would settle for b minus ;]

for reference, these are the sets / spreads i used, if one might want to tinker:

sets

Poliwrath @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 224 Def / 36 SpD
Impish Nature
- Circle Throw
- Scald
- Protect
- Toxic / Refresh

Poliwrath @ Choice Specs
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 20 Def / 208 SpA / 32 SpD
Modest Nature
- Vacuum Wave
- Hydro Pump
- Focus Blast
- Ice Beam / Hidden Power Electric

you can use RestTalk > Tect + utility, which is particularly valid if this is your knock off absorber (i personally ran all defensive variants w/m-lix in my tests, but there are certainly alternatives), but i just dislike the inconsistency of it. impish > relaxed b.c scald is just for burns anyway, and i'd rather have this sitting a bit over common defensive benchmarks x)

 

[Serperior for Uber]

Rotom mow for A/A+ rank

So I'm relatively new to ru but really think Rotom-mow needs a lot of love.
1.Its choice specs set is a monster and can decimate walls with a specs leaf storm. Volt Switch is a powerful momentum changer which pivots on the opponents switchin of their special wall and wears down the special walls for literally no cost. Moreover, the fact that Rotom can punish ground type switchins with a STAB leafstorm (which is its defining aspect imo) is what makes it so dangerous. Rotom mow can pivot for days with volt switch unless the opponent makes a risky play to switch in a ground type.
2. Its versatility is huge. Rotom mow can run both choice sets with ease. It can also run support sets as it has a plethora of support moves like will o wisp thunder wave, and pain split.

 

[phantom]

I'll try and make an update weekly, so here is this one:

Sandslash down to C-
Mega Audino down to B
Pelipper up to B-
Gurdurr up to B
Tangrowth up to A
Sigilyph up to A
Poliwrath added to C-
Bouffalant added to D

 

[Guidorealmsmc]

Hitmonlee down to to A-
.

Why exactly did Hitmonlee drop to A- last week's update?

 

[Choice Banned]

B- --> C+/C
Simply put, Shiftry has become ineffective in the current meta. Flygon is generally a better defogger, Cobalion being everywhere sucks for Shiftry, and a few fairies have gotten better (Togetic, Aromatisse, Mega Audino to an extent). If you want a dark type, there's Sneasel, Scrafty, Houndoom, and more. It does have a good offensive presence and a unique type combination, but once again, it's simply ineffective just due to being screwed over by the metagame changes.

B- --> B/B+
While Shiftry got worse due to the metagame changing, Jynx has gotten better. It checks Dragon types, can revenge kill certain mons that got better with Choice Scarf, and can even try to sweep with Nasty Plot. It also can Lovely Kiss, letting it put a possible check to sleep (it can also help its teammates through the use of sleep) and has a good typing offensively, especially in a metagame with multiple Ice-weak Pokemon. Dry Skin is also cool, allowing it to absorb Water type moves. However, the popularity Sneasel recently has been getting, as well as certain other things, such as Cobalion becoming the King of RU, and other checks that were also prevalent in the previous metagame, like Houndoom and Bronzong, among others (note that they can be put to sleep, and Sneasel, Cobalion, and Houndoom don't like Focus Blast)

edit:
another nomination

A- --> A
Sneasel is similar to Jynx in that it works well in the current meta due to Ice typing, as well as being a great revenge killer. However, it's more than just that. It has a powerful Knock Off, and can provide support to mons like Gallade/Medicham that need their checks removed to sweep through Pursuit. It's powerful as well, as 95 Attack can hit hard with a boost from SD, LO, or CB (Low Kick can put a dent in Steelix/Cobalion). While it struggles with the Fighting types rising, Sneasel is a great mon in this meta.

 

[Cheryl.]

Im gonna nominate Skunktank to go down to C rank. It simply, is not effective in the meta. Fighting types are everywhere, and Skuntank cannot take much of their hits. It faces stiff competition as a Defogger from Flygon. It also has average attacking and defensive stats. All it can do to stand out from the competition is Pursuit, which is okay, but, even then, it faces competition from Sneasel,Houndoom, and Spiritomb as Pursuit trappers. It may have a bit of a niche as the only mon with Defog and Pursuit, but not enough of a niche for B- or C+ imo. Skuntank for C rank.

 

[Choice Banned]

Im gonna nominate Skunktank to go down to C+ rank. It simply, is not effective in the meta. Fighting types are everywhere, and Skuntank cannot take much of their hits. It faces stiff competition as a Defogger from Flygon. It also has average attacking and defensive stats. All it can do to stand out from the competition is Pursuit, which is okay, but not enough of a niche to be B-. Skunktank for C+

To add onto that, Pursuit trapping isn't even unique to it. Sneasel and Houndoom can both pursuit trap, among others that I probably didn't remember.

 

[Bouff]

sup brothers sisters and other dudes B)

- dunno why this thing is among the ranks of liepard and kecleon lol, i think garbo probably deserves a raise to c+ or maybe b-. yeah its not as good as it was pre-shifts due to defensive gon (although i think this thing is pretty mediocre and people seem to have a fetish for it because it clears hazards and does some other shit that other mons probably do better but thats besides the point), as well as the fact that it lets cobal get free turns to do whatever it wants, but other than that i think it's a pretty great hazard setter, especially since, unlike other things like qwilfish or oma, it has a pretty good advantage against other hazard cleaners (beats togetic, hitmontop, and other things that are less common) and when you pair it up with things that punish a lot of slow teams like doom it really pulls its weight. not to mention the fact that (also unlike qwilfish) it has a lot more offensive merit since it's a nice answer to things like virizion : - )

- also is underappreciated, considering the fact its the most reliable answer to scrafty for balance / semistall (which is nice considering that most balance teams that dont have it + a fat water like mola are pretty weak to it), as well as a good portion of other physical attackers in the tier like lee, sneasel, and hariyama. it's not passive for a fatmon either, since play rough / eq are more than enough to hit a decent portion of the tier, and more importantly, keeps it from being set up bait, and it has support options like twave and heal bell to boot. yeah it doesnt get reliable recovery, but mola's probably one of its best partners atm so it's not a huge issue, and even then the classic resttalk set is pretty viable if that's your thing since it lets it sponge hits without much trouble. it's not the greatest mon ever but it's certainly better than other mons residing in b- like gourgeist


might make some other noms later, feel like the b ranks have some things that could be changed : )

 

[phantom]

Hm, I disagree with both of the above nominations. The reason why Garbodor is so low is the same reason why no one bothered using it back when Gligar was in RU: i.e. it gives a free switch-in to a Pokemon that's used on like 1/4th of most teams and the same Pokemon happens to be the best hazard remover in the tier. Last I checked, Qwilfish and Omastar didn't struggle too much with either Togetic or Hitmontop (well, probably Omastar, but Qwilfish has an extremely good matchup vs both) due to access to STAB Scald and Taunt/Ice Beam. The main problem is most definitely losing to Flygon though, and no it isn't just the defensive set, which is isn't objectively mediocre now matter how you twist it, but it's literally any Flygon set with Defog that keep it from doing what it does. I wouldn't mind seeing it rise if it had noteworthy defensive merits outside of setting up hazards. It's an okay one-time check to certain things, but gets worn down very easily. In contrast to Golbat in C+ which is a poor hazard remover akin to how Garbodor is a subpar hazard setter, Golbat at the very least has reliable recovery that allows it to consistently check the likes of Scrafty and Virizion, Garbodor gets worn down a little too easily in comparison, especially when it uses Rocky Helmet > Black Sludge.

I don't agree with Granbull rising based on the merit that it's better than one Pokemon in B-. I also wonder why RestTalk Granbull has been brought up when that set has never been good. Like, part of the point of using Granbull over Aromatisse outside of the increased physical bulk is that it isn't a huge momentum suck, i.e. it doesn't give as many free switch-ins thanks to Earthquake and Twave, and running a RestTalk set undermines that niche completely. Having said that, you missed another token of information as to why Aromatisse is prefered and why Granbull is more niche and should remain where it is. First off, it's more self-sufficient. Second, Aromatisse isn't Jellicent food thanks to Aroma Veil. I disagree that Granbull is the best answer to Scrafty on semistall/balanced when Aromatisse finds a lot more use as a result of not being bait for one of the best Pokemon in the tier. Keeping your team, especially slower teams, from being susceptible to Jellicent can be difficult, so if I have the option to run Aromatisse > Granbull, I'd do it every time unless the offensive moves/twave is really that important for the team. It's not like Granbull is a bad Pokemon, but it isn't the best thing in B- nor the hottest pick rn due to the nature of the current metagame; it's far away from being the most consistent Fairy-type in RU and is really just a niche pick if your team has the luxury to scrap it on or if its utility moves are that important, neither situation I've personally come across in a while nor have I seen any decent players use the thing in a long time either.

 

[Lord Death Man]

why would you compare granbull to gourgeist when gourgeist blanket checks most of the same mons granbull does, bar scrafty, while also checking megalix and durant (and can come in and break cobalion's sub in an emergency when you need it revenged)? granbull, also, unlike gourgeist, does not have extremely similar competition because gourgeist has a unique typing. weird comparison but i do think grabull has a decent niche but idk if it's a B- niche

garbodor is eh and garbodor does worse as a viriz switch in if it has zen headbutt, and if it doesn't qwilfish isn't losing anyway as far as i'm aware. you should already have something that can revenge coba on spike stack offense and qwilfish / roselia (lol) bring a lot more to spike stacking stall imo so it seems pretty pointless.

 

[tehy]

sup brothers sisters and other dudes B)

- dunno why this thing is among the ranks of liepard and kecleon lol, i think garbo probably deserves a raise to c+ or maybe b-. yeah its not as good as it was pre-shifts due to defensive gon (although i think this thing is pretty mediocre and people seem to have a fetish for it because it clears hazards and does some other shit that other mons probably do better but thats besides the point), as well as the fact that it lets cobal get free turns to do whatever it wants, but other than that i think it's a pretty great hazard setter, especially since, unlike other things like qwilfish or oma, it has a pretty good advantage against other hazard cleaners (beats togetic, hitmontop, and other things that are less common) and when you pair it up with things that punish a lot of slow teams like doom it really pulls its weight. not to mention the fact that (also unlike qwilfish) it has a lot more offensive merit since it's a nice answer to things like virizion : - )

Qwilfish vs. Togetic: Togetic gets Taunted and doesn't do much back, while Qwilfish stacks hazards to the skies
Garbodor vs. Togetic: toge can suicide Defog once even after rocks
Both Vs. hitmontop: both win. I guess Rocky Helmet chips Hitmontop pretty well, but a Scald burn cripples it permanently, even moreso than a Gunk Shot poison.
Qwilfish vs. Golbat: Golbat sucks even moreso here; unless you creep a shitton it gets taunted, stacked on, scald burned if you want
Garbodor vs. Golbat: Despite kinda sucking, Golbat easily 1v1s Garbodor
Qwilfish vs. Pelipper: taunt. hazards.
Garbodor vs. Pelipper: gunk shot is annoying with the poison, but a scald burn ends Garbodor, so pelipper locks it down pretty nicely
Qwilfish vs. Hitmonlee: -1 252+ Atk Life Orb Reckless Hitmonlee High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Qwilfish: 109-129 (32.6 - 38.6%) -- 99.2% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
Garbodor vs. Hitmonlee: 252+ Atk Life Orb Reckless Hitmonlee High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Garbodor: 153-181 (42 - 49.7%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

one of these guys can switch in safely on a rapid spin and force out hitmonlee, and one of these guys has to hope he doesn't just pop them and spin later, thus denying all spikes for the entire match

Shiftry i'll give you. not that you mentioned it, but still.

Skuntank can wear away at Garbodor and not take that much from Gunk Shot, while taking advantage of its Leftovers. Qwil has Taunt + scald all day for it.

Garbodor's typing helps for Virizion, but Qwilfish's helps for Cobalion, Durant, and Escavalier, as well as Emboar. Really rather just use Qwilfish, honestly.

- also is underappreciated, considering the fact its the most reliable answer to scrafty for balance / semistall (which is nice considering that most balance teams that dont have it + a fat water like mola are pretty weak to it), as well as a good portion of other physical attackers in the tier like lee, sneasel, and hariyama. it's not passive for a fatmon either, since play rough / eq are more than enough to hit a decent portion of the tier, and more importantly, keeps it from being set up bait, and it has support options like twave and heal bell to boot. yeah it doesnt getreliable recovery, but mola's probably one of its best partners atm so it's not a huge issue, and even then the classic resttalk set is pretty viable if that's your thing since it lets it sponge hits without much trouble. it's not the greatest mon ever but it's certainly better than other mons residing in b- like gourgeist


might make some other noms later, feel like the b ranks have some things that could be changed : )

a lack of reliable recovery's a bigger issue than you make it out to be; you can't always have Alomomola in when the opposing (hitmonlee, sneasel, Gallade, Medicham) is in (a good player will actively try to deny you from doing this), meaning that you can't always heal it up like you'd want to. of course, that can lead to Granbull getting worn down, and it's one of the reasons i'd never want to use it if I could help it. And thanks to Aromatisse, i certainly can help it.

a digression-restalk seems like it sucks. Restalk Heal Bell is about as passive as aromatisse, provides no Wish support, and can be overwhelmed while sleeping, so i'd rather use Aroma. Restalk 2 attacks, once asleep and stripped of its lefties, is basically a tossup to switch into and defeat a Scrafty (252 Atk Scrafty Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Granbull: 120-142 (31.3 - 37%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock). Restalk T-wave is Mlix food and still can struggle with scrafty. I bring up scrafty specifically because any defensive team will try to arrive at a point where it can hard-wall everything (balance teams may also try to arrive at a point where everything is swept), and if you have Aromatisse you're fine even if they have a Scrafty. But with a Granbull, they can simply yolo it and win via coinflip. oh yeah, restalk (attack/twave) lacks Heal Bell, so there's that.

(the coinflip i'm referring to: if you are asleep 2 turns and Scrafty DD's as you come in, calc shows you're 3HKOed. You therefore need to use Play Rough one of those times, which is 2 ~30% chances factoring in a miss. In reality it's like a 52-48 split or something.)

anyhow...granbull is cool, but not nearly as cool as Gourgeist-S, who can beat Durant, cobalion, Mega Steelix, Rhyperior, Virizion, and even the rare Torterra, while spinblocking and spreading around status or leech seed, which only Sigilyph doesn't mind, meaning you can wear down the opposing team. (Make sure to use Fire Blast as the attack, it's awesome) it's also helpful for powerful choice fighting-types, despite not walling them. a bit outclassed by Jelli, unfortunately, but it's helpful against Virizion, which Jellicent outright invites in and helps out, so yea...Gourg is not bad, haters can hate elsewhere.

 

[Umen Berker]

Gourgiest-XL -> B or B+

The fact that this Mon hard walls anything physical cobalion can throw at it and can burn or drop leech seed or set up trick room against it is a huge reason to use this in the coba dominated metagame, also being one of a handfull of viable ghosts (Tomb, Banette, and everyone's favorite Jeli) in a metagame dominated by fighting types and being physically defensive in this metagame are both extremely attractive too. Not to mention being the most solid trick room setter now that Reun is gone.
It's also way easier to switch it in than you would think, coming in on any bulky waters like seismitoad and Jeli (lacking shadow ball) and threatening them out with seed bomb, or coming in on any fighting type not named scrafty and getting a free turn and at worst eating a pretty weak knock off. All these free turns let Gourgiest spread around burns, leech seed, or get in free trick rooms that allow you to either switch to a proper counter to their switch or cripple any physical attackers before they get to you. Being able to tank an earthquake from any attacker in the metagame and being able to counter rhyperior and flygon locked into the wrong move also help it do it's job. Its also an amazing spin blocker as the best spinner in the metagame right now (hitmontop) is 100% hard walled by gourgiest-xl and gives you a free turn, in addition to beating flygon locked into any move not named outrage and burn it back if it attempts to defog. It can also come in on the likes of Durant and Escavalier and cripple them for the rest of the match with burns. With either leech seed or synthesis to recover with and a small but useful support movepool, anything not packing coverage against it or heavy hitting special attacks is going to have trouble muscling through it.

Now I'm not gonna over sell this one it's got its flaws. Scrafty wrecks it 1v1 on any set running shed skin. And usually can grab the 2HKO with knock off without a boost. Jeli that packs shadow ball destroys it easily eating seed bombs and recovering off the damage on all but the most frail sets. Emboar smashes this Mon so long as its not locked in the wrong move and as a defensive pokémon it has the unfortunate status of being weak to glalie. But the strengths of Gourgiest-XL in this metagame really outweigh these mitigating weaknesses quite handily and make it a solid choice for teams looking for a defensive pivoit, trick room setter, spin blocker, or just a general cobalion answer

 

[Lord Death Man]

In my opinion, Gourgeist-Large does much of what Gourgeist-XL does but also outspeeds Jellicent and most offense Tangrowth, which is a pretty big deal with taunt jelli everywhere and Tangrowth being the difficult-to-check wallbreaker it is. Gourgeist-Large for B or B-. But I do support XL for B because it's pretty good at what it does and it checks a whole lot in one slot.

I'd also advocate a mixed defensive set (I've been using 248 HP/60 Defense/200 special defense, Bold/Impish). You *still* beat all SD Virizion, are a decent switch-in for Coba (who can't 2hko with iron head at +2, which is what the set goes for), Medicham, Flygon, non-Band Ttrum, Durant, Rhyperior, Megalix, Escavalier, Lee, Seismatoad (and that's just the A-ranks and Medicham, but Medicham is scary), but you also become a very good switch-in to all Tangrowth sets. (if you've lost leftovers not really, but tangrowth can't afford to spend a turn knocking you off to get there and it still needs rocks up). I wouldn't say that you beat all those things since most of them can carry weird coverage that beats you, like modest specs flygon, but whatever.

It generally fits where Amoonguss would fit, so cool partners are Alomomola, Megalix, and Aromstisse, except it beats or pressures some things that would destroy that core if Amoonguss was there, like Virizion, Cobalion, Ddtrum, etc.

imo the 15 speed gain is worth the 10 hp loss. Also, I'd use flamethrower over seed bomb always.

 

[canasian]

There's no reason to use mid-level Gourgeist forms because you will always be able to achieve the same stat distribution with -s or -xl.

 

[Kableye]

There's no reason to use mid-level Gourgeist forms because you will always be able to achieve the same stat distribution with -s or -xl.

The entire central point of his arguement was that Gourgeist-Large out speeds Jellicent and Tangrowth while having better bulk then Small. That seems like a different stat distribution to me o-o

 

[canasian]

The idea is that you move around the EV distribution just slightly and Gourgeist-XL or Gourgeist-S can hit the same speed/bulk benchmarks as the middle sized ones.

In this particular example, if you want your pumpkin to hit 168 speed (faster than standard 44 spe Jellicent), -XL would run 140 HP/252 Def/96 Spe, while -L would run 240 HP/252 Def/16 Spe. The end result is that -XL has a negligible 5 fewer HP and 20 more attack than the Large pumpkin.
I suppose the difference in attack doesn't help if you're using special attacks but I'd still argue that the surprise value of a speedy Gourgeist-XL is still worthwhile over 5 HP.

 

[Lord Death Man]

in all fairness, it's true they're interchangeable because of that, except gourgeist xl takes .5 - 1% more damage from special hits and i don't see a big point in running either as pure physical because you're not checking anything new and they already struggle to differentiate themselves from tangrowth and amoonguss and jellicent and honestly even stuff like togetic and should not be ranked on the virtues of their worst set

they're essentially the same mon but gourgeist-l is very marginally better and should be ranked over xl since their differences in bulk are functionally irrelevant because they don't check anything any better anyway

edit: the 24 points of speed xl uses is in contrast to the 30 points gourgeist-l gets because it's using 5 attack btw, also, neither should be using their attack stats at all bc they need flamethrower in this meta so

double edit: i'm being a dick actually, gourgeist-xl and l are functionally the same, unlike XL and small, and xl is more versatile and should be the one to move up, even if it's potential can't actually be taken advantage of in any meaningful way. use a spread of 200 HP/40 Defense/172 special defense/96 speed Bold, you take special hits marginally worse and are slower but it doesn't actually matter and if jellicent ever stops being relevant you can dump those points back into another stats. you can run a different spread to check LO durant but then you can't check LO tangrowth or harass jellicent or whatever, which is something gourgeist-xl CAN do but shouldn't and it barely does it anyway but w/e. consider magic coat on those sets.

Gourgeist XL for B i guess

 

[EonX]

Gourgeist-XL: Idk about B+ rank for the pumpkin, but I could get behind it for B rank. I haven't used it much lately, although I did use it extensively in XY and early ORAS to decent success. XL Pumpkin is probably the best spinblocker a stall team can use outside of Jellicent. While Jellicent is usually the better option, XL Pumpkin has more than its fare share of advantages. The big selling point would be the greatly increased physical bulk compared to Jelli. With the higher physical bulk, Gourgeist-XL becomes a hard check to stuff like Rhyperior, Flygon, and a safer response to Gallade and Medicham. Leech Seed + Will-O-Wisp gives extreme passive damage and it has the room to run Protect to stall for this passive damage. Or, you could choose to run Synthesis and have room to be cheeky with Fire Blast. (why does it even learn this?!?) XL Pumpkin's biggest flaws lie in the fact that Jellicent has an overall better typing and ability to beat stall with Taunt, its painfully average Special Defense, and complete vulnerability to status which makes it rely on cleric support to avert this issue (of course, Aromatisse isn't a bad partner for it considering the Dark resistance, so eh) The other issue is that a lot of XL Pumpkin's resistances fall on its weaker special side primarily (Water, Grass, Electric) but it does have the base HP to somewhat mitigate this issue. All that being said though, it's the next best defensive spinblocker in the tier thanks to its reliable recovery methods, ability to spread passive damage via Leech Seed and Wisp, and much higher physical bulk to take most spinners head on, which is something Jellicent can't reliably do thanks to Knock Off. And while situational, Frisk can tip you off to a potential lure or simply confirm a set you still had some doubts about. It's also fun to wall the shit out of Psyshock Meloetta thanks to Leech Seed + Protect healing. And XL Pumpkin is not like Tangrowth or Amoonguss in the slightest. Sure, they're all Grass-types, but XL Pumpkin is a spinblocker that can double as a wall. Tangrowth is more of an offensive pivot in this meta while Amoonguss is a pivot that acts as more of a mixed wall. All three are pretty different in this meta imo.