Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

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Srn

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I'll agree with a normal metagross raise. It's a cool fairy check that can actually switch into mgarde, unlike mvenu or talon or most other fires, and it can even beat mega diancie and mega altaria with bullet punch. I personally dunno if AV is really strong enough to lure stuff unless its 4x effective tho, i'd say that's pushing it :L
It's honestly arguable to even use this thing over say, rachi, but i'd say gross mainly has bp and pursuit over rachi, which is enough to differentiate.
 

Albacore

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: This thing is definitely a huge threat at the moment and I can see why some people want it in A+, it’s probably the best A-rank besides Starmie. However, I don’t think it’s A+ rank material, and for one main reason: it’s much trickier for it to be of use once its checks are still active, and sending it out at the wrong time can be very detrimental, much more so than any current A+ rank. Yeah, you can make the argument that it wears down its switchins with Knock Off, which it definitely does. But it has such a hard time finding opportunities to come in, and it’s so prone to getting worn down by entry hazards and its own Life Orb that it’s often just not worth it. It's not like Bisharp who can switch in on far more Pokemon far more times, and thus is much more likely to outlast its checks (especially defenisve ones), especially when you factor in Stealth Rocks.

Lopunny is a pretty obvious comparison to make (though kinda unfair because Lopunny is a Mega and everything), but sending Lopunny out rarely fills like a particularly risky move, even when its checks are still active, since it has an easier time coming in and isn’t worn down as easily. And while people kinda exaggerate Weavile’s frailty (it takes only around 50% from Manaphy’s Scald for instance), the mediocre defensive typing means it takes too much damage from almost any Pokemon. And while it 2HKOs just as much, if not more stuff than Lopunny, when it comes to OHKOs it often falls short (Standard Celebi lives Knock Off from full for example), which mean that if the opposing Pokemon is healthy and happens to stays in it’s usually going to severely damage if not outright KO Weavile.

Probably a more apt comparison would be Torn-T, it has the same speed tier and pretty much the same level of offensive prowess, but Torn-T not only has a bunch of defensive applications to back it up, but it’s almost a completely risk-free Pokemon due to Regen and U-Turn.

So all in all, I don’t think Weavile is A+ material simply because it's a riskier Pokemon than any A+ rank, it relies on certain conditions to be truly effective and often falls flat on its face when sent out at the wrong time.

: lol I actually didn’t realise this thing wasn’t A rank. Yeah honestly this is A material, it’s a really potent wallbreaker with few actual good answers and the ability to lure most of its checks. It also has a few defensive applications, it’s one of the better Manaphy checks for one, it has the natural bulk to take strong neutral hits (for example it can avoid the 2HKO from Sharp Beak Talonflame), checks stuff like Mega Manectric and Raikou, and even though it’s super hazard prone, if it can get in vs anything it’s more than likely going to be able to deal pretty big damage before being forced out. Also, all of its counters are pretty easy to cover via almost any Fire-type. It definitely has flaws like being super-hazard prone but I don’t think they are enough to prevent it from being considered an A rank threat given how terrifying it can be to swicth into and how many opportunities it can find to come in.

: wow I support an Infernape rise what a shock. But yeah this thing is really neat and super versatile, the wallbreaker LO set, the main once I've been using, is probably worth B- alone, it's a solid wallbreaker and though it does have trouble with the ever-popular Tankchomp, and besides it can run HP Ice to lure it. But when you take into account the bulky WoW set which, as Poek explained really well, is the only defenisve Fire type which has recovery and isn't ruined by SR; the Scarf set which is one of the better Scarfers in the tier, and a fantastic partner to Pursuit trappers in general since it baits in Psychics superbly; and the fact that recent metagame trends like the rise of Weavile and of Scizor to check Weavile (2 Pokemon which not only are forr for Inferanpe but excellent partners as well), this thing is B rank worthy imo

: This is something I advocated for a while back, and with Weavile being everywhere, Tankchomp more-o-less replacing it as a bulky Ground, Weavile and Skarmory gaining popularity, Manaphy being super popular, and Hippowdon still being everywhere, it's really not enjoyed the latest metagame trends and is probably at the worst it's been for a while. Scarf isn't very good anymore since it doesn't really revenge kill much and is super easy to exploit, Phys Def recieves a ton of competition from other bulky grounds, and though the Dual Dance set is allegedly what kept it in A+, Weavile easily revenges that and Skarmory just phazes it away, so that set has taken a hit too (also the metagame is a bit more offensive and doesn't allow it to set up as easily now). I just don't think it's a level above Hippowdon or Starmie overall and I certainly don't think it's on the same level as Garchomp. I guess the fact that XZard is now S rank could be enough to prevent it from dropping, but XZard still isn't that common, and in the long run it's not that great a counter to it since can be worn down pretty easily.
 
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Srn

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: This thing is definitely a huge threat at the moment and I can see why some people want it in A+, it’s probably the best A-rank besides Starmie. However, I don’t think it’s A+ rank material, and for one main reason: it’s much trickier for it to be of use once its checks are still active, and sending it out at the wrong time can be very detrimental, much more so than any current A+ rank. Yeah, you can make the argument that it wears down its switchins with Knock Off, which it definitely does. But it has such a hard time finding opportunities to come in, and it’s so prone to getting worn down by entry hazards and its own Life Orb that it’s often just not worth it.

Lopunny is a pretty obvious comparison to make (though kinda unfair because Lopunny is a Mega and everything), but sending Lopunny out rarely fills like a particularly risky move, even when its checks are still active, since it has an easier time coming in and isn’t worn down as easily. And while people kinda exaggerate Weavile’s frailty (it takes only around 50% from Manaphy’s Scald for instance), the mediocre defensive typing means it takes too much damage from almost any Pokemon. And while it 2HKOs just as much, if not more stuff than Lopunny, when it comes to OHKOs it often falls short (Standard Celebi lives Knock Off from full for example), which mean that if the opposing Pokemon is healthy and happens to stays in it’s usually going to severely damage if not outright KO Weavile.

Probably a more apt comparison would be Torn-T, it has the same speed tier and pretty much the same level of offensive prowess, but Torn-T not only has a bunch of defensive applications to back it up, but it’s almost a completely risk-free Pokemon due to Regen and U-Turn.

So all in all, I don’t think Weavile is A+ material simply because it's a riskier Pokemon than any A+ rank, it relies on certain conditions to be truly effective and often falls flat on its face when sent out at the wrong time.

: lol I actually didn’t realise this thing wasn’t A rank. Yeah honestly this is A material, it’s a really potent wallbreaker with few actual good answers and the ability to lure most of its checks. It also has a few defensive applications, it’s one of the better Manaphy checks for one, it has the natural bulk to take strong neutral hits (for example it can avoid the 2HKO from Sharp Beak Talonflame), checks stuff like Mega Manectric and Raikou, and even though it’s super hazard prone, if it can get in vs anything it’s more than likely going to be able to deal pretty big damage before being forced out. Also, all of its counters are pretty easy to cover via almost any Fire-type. It definitely has flaws like being super-hazard prone but I don’t think they are enough to prevent it from being considered an A rank threat given how terrifying it can be to swicth into and how many opportunities it can find to come in.

: wow I support an Infernape rise what a shock. But yeah this thing is really neat and super versatile, the wallbreaker LO set, the main once I've been using, is probably worth B- alone, it's a solid wallbreaker and though it does have trouble with the ever-popular Tankchomp, and besides it can run HP Ice to lure it. But when you take into account the bulky WoW set which, as Poek explained really well, is the only defenisve Fire type which has recovery and isn't ruined by SR; the Scarf set which is one of the better Scarfers in the tier, and a fantastic partner to Pursuit trappers in general since it baits in Psychics superbly; and the fact that recent metagame trends like the rise of Weavile and of Scizor to check Weavile (2 Pokemon which not only are forr for Inferanpe but excellent partners as well), this thing is B rank worthy imo

: This is something I advocated for a while back, and with Weavile being everywhere, Tankchomp more-o-less replacing it as a bulky Ground, Weavile and Skarmory gaining popularity, Manaphy being super popular, and Hippowdon still being everywhere, it's really not enjoyed the latest metagame trends and is probably at the worst it's been for a while. Scarf isn't very good anymore since it doesn't really revenge kill much and is super easy to exploit, Phys Def recieves a ton of competition from other bulky grounds, and though the Dual Dance set is allegedly what kept it in A+, Weavile easily revenges that and Skarmory just phazes it away, so that set has taken a hit too (also the metagame is a bit more offensive and doesn't allow it to set up as easily now). I just don't think it's a level above Hippowdon or Starmie overall and I certainly don't think it's on the same level as Garchomp. I guess the fact that XZard is now S rank could be enough to prevent it from dropping, but XZard still isn't that common, and in the long run it's not that great a counter to it since can be worn down pretty easily.
I think most of ur opinions make sense, i agree now that maybe weavile shouldn't be A+
But lanT still rips balance a new one with SD that garchomp can't do with unaware clefable around.
Besides, if you want to drop it on basis of weavile being common then garchomp should be dropping too. And if anything, garchomp without its leftovers is being worn down quicker.
 
I think Kyurem-B deserves to be moved up to A at least. It has such an impact on the current meta as it is quickly rising in usage because of how easily it wall-breaks and shreds through balanced teams. It's decent move-pool is enough to limit it's counters to only one Pokemon, Mega Scizor. Even then, it's able to pack Hidden Power Fire and that coming from an amazing 120 Special Attack Base Stat while hitting for 4x Super-Effective damage is absolutely devastating. Kyurem-B's ridiculously high Attack Stat and efficient Special Attack stat makes it an exceptional wall-breaker, it allows Kyu-b (Kyurem-Black) to be an proficient Mixed-Attacker. Even when it's Physical Attack Stat is univested it's still able to maintain incredible power. It's best STAB, Ice Beam, 2HKO's nearly the entire metagame, aside from dedicated walls such as Chansey and Scizor.

Kyurem-Black @ Life Orb
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 20 Atk / 252 SpA / 236 Spe
Mild/Rash Nature
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Fusion Bolt
- Roost

This is arguably it's best set.
Earth Power invalidates most of it's Steel-Type checks such as Heatran who is obviously OHKO'd by this move. Fusion Bolt is incredible for getting rid of it's Water-Type checks such as Keldeo and Azumarill and Manaphy another Pokemon who excels at wall breaking. Who all are, no question, top tier Pokemon. The last move can be anything the user wants, Roost is a fantastic option as it provides Kyu-B with some sustainability which perfects it's kit and making it such a troublesome Pokemon to deal with. I didn't forget it's outstanding ability, Teravolt. Teravolt negates abilities that would otherwise affect the damage of the move Kyurem-B is using. This ability allows it to ignore Venusaur's Thick Fat, who is becoming slightly more common, and dish out massive damage with Ice Beam. Not only that it prevents Rotom-Wash from being invulnerable to Earth Power, which would otherwise allow Rotom to wall Kyu-B.

Now that I covered Kyurem-Black's offensive qualities, let's discuss it's natural bulk. It has a 100 Physical Defense Base Stat, a 90 Special Defense Base Stat and a whopping 125 HP Base Stat. These three factors put together can make Kyurem-B such a difficult Pokemon to eliminate. It has spectacular bulk for an offensive Pokemon. It's high Physical Defense and HP grants it the ability to take many hits from it's checks and OHKO back. Let's look at Scarfed Keldeo for example:

252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Kyurem-B: 308-366 (78.7 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
20 Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 328-387 (101.5 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 278-330 (71 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

As you can clearly see, Secret Sword will never OHKO, even with a Mild Nature (-Def). While it's able to OHKO every time with Fusion Bolt and simply just mitigate that damage off and be back at 65% health. If you're using Mega Scizor as a counter, that still isn't a guaranteed win because of, as listed above, Hidden Power Fire. Let's take a look at some more calcs to display the damage:

0 Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 186-218 (47.5 - 55.7%) -- 75.8% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 200+ SpD Mega Scizor: 265-317 (77.2 - 92.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

This is the standard Specially Defensive biased Mega Scizor spread and as you can see,
Bullet Punch does a maximum 55% while Kyurem is has a 31% chance to OHKO after receiving Stealth Rock damage, completely neglecting Scizor as a counter. All of these qualities Kyurem posses is why it's such a versatile Pokemon. It's a offensive powerhouse and an above average tank. Making it a top tier threat without a doubt.
 
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SketchUp

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I was thinking about a Landorus-T drop a few weeks ago but after playing a bit with SD sets, its still a very effective pokemon who deserves to stay in A+. Scarf and Defensive both are indeed not A+ rank worthy, but SD definitely is in my opinion because it can just tear through balance very easily with only one SD up. It can run SD 3 Attacks, Dual Dance etc.
Just to show how hard Landorus-T actually hits:
+2 220+ Atk Soft Sand Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garchomp: 340-402 (80.9 - 95.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 220+ Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 180-212 (59.4 - 69.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 220+ Atk Soft Sand Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 313-369 (79.4 - 93.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

That are some of the most common Lando-T switchins and due to lack of recovery from the first two it's not hard to bring them to a point where a boosted attack kills them. Srn made a good point in the comparison with SD Garchomp that SD Landorus-T can break some pokemon that are often found on balance, such as Unaware Clefable, Slowbro and Support Mega Altaria while Garchomp can't beat these pokemon reliable. Landorus-T can also prevent being worn down by using Leftovers instead of Soft Sand which is maybe even the better option because it gives it more setup opportunities than Soft Sand does. The power difference between Lum Chomp and Leftovers Landorus-T is still pretty big when looking at some OHKO's +2 Garchomp fails to get.

Also SubSalac SD murders bulky offense which is great too.
 
I think Kyurem-B deserves to be moved up to A at least. It has such an impact on the current meta as it is quickly rising in usage because of how easily it wall-breaks and shreds through balanced teams. It's decent move-pool is enough to limit it's counters to only one Pokemon, Mega Scizor. Even then, it's able to pack Hidden Power Fire and that coming from an amazing 120 Special Attack Base Stat while hitting for 4x Super-Effective damage is absolutely devastating. Kyurem-B's ridiculously high Attack Stat and efficient Special Attack stat makes it an exceptional wall-breaker, it allows Kyu-b (Kyurem-Black) to be an proficient Mixed-Attacker. Even when it's Physical Attack Stat is univested it's still able to maintain incredible power. It's best STAB, Ice Beam, 2HKO's nearly the entire metagame, aside from dedicated walls such as Chansey and Scizor.

Kyurem-Black @ Life Orb
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 20 Atk / 252 SpA / 236 Spe
Mild/Rash Nature
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Fusion Bolt
- Roost

This is arguably it's best set.
Earth Power invalidates most of it's Steel-Type checks such as Heatran who is obviously OHKO'd by this move. Fusion Bolt is incredible for getting rid of it's Water-Type checks such as Keldeo and Azumarill and Manaphy another Pokemon who excels at wall breaking. Who all are, no question, top tier Pokemon. The last move can be anything the user wants, Roost is a fantastic option as it provides Kyu-B with some sustainability which perfects it's kit and making it such a troublesome Pokemon to deal with. I didn't forget it's outstanding ability, Teravolt. Teravolt negates abilities that would otherwise affect the damage of the move Kyurem-B is using. This ability allows it to ignore Venusaur's Thick Fat, who is becoming slightly more common, and dish out massive damage with Ice Beam. Not only that it prevents Rotom-Wash from being invulnerable to Earth Power, which would otherwise allow Rotom to wall Kyu-B.

Now that I covered Kyurem-Black's offensive qualities, let's discuss it's natural bulk. It has a 100 Physical Defense Base Stat, a 90 Special Defense Base Stat and a whopping 125 HP Base Stat. These three factors put together can make Kyurem-B such a difficult Pokemon to eliminate. It has spectacular bulk for an offensive Pokemon. It's high Physical Defense and HP grants it the ability to take many hits from it's checks and OHKO back. Let's look at Scarfed Keldeo for example:

252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Kyurem-B: 308-366 (78.7 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
20 Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 328-387 (101.5 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 278-330 (71 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

As you can clearly see, Secret Sword will never OHKO, even with a Mild Nature (-Def). While it's able to OHKO every time with Fusion Bolt and simply just mitigate that damage off and be back at 65% health. If you're using Mega Scizor as a counter, that still isn't a guaranteed win because of, as listed above, Hidden Power Fire. Let's take a look at some more calcs to display the damage:

0 Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 186-218 (47.5 - 55.7%) -- 75.8% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 200+ SpD Mega Scizor: 265-317 (77.2 - 92.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

This is the standard Specially Defensive biased Mega Scizor spread and as you can see,
Bullet Punch does a maximum 55% while Kyurem is has a 31% chance to OHKO after receiving Stealth Rock damage, completely neglecting Scizor as a counter. All of these qualities Kyurem posses is why it's such a versatile Pokemon. It's a offensive powerhouse and an above average tank. Making it a top tier threat without a doubt.
Well some minor corrections about Keldeo. It's Secret Sword will always OHKO with SR on the field, or if it has Choice Specs, or there's a good chance you can even die from your own LO recoil in that instance, depending on your nature. I think though that an all out attacker set with Expert Belt is probably better though. Its coverage is great, and it's actually difficult to find the opportunity to Roost. HP Fire on top of the other three moves lets you also bypass the omnipresent Ferrothorn, which can help numerous particular sweepers.

Should it rise to A? I'm on the fence there. All of S rank are big checks to KyuB, and while most pokemon would kill for 125/100/90 defenses, its typing leaves it weak to SR on top of 5 very prominent offensive types, on top of LO recoil should you go that route. This is not in KyuB's favor considering the fast and offensive trends in the meta and Spike stacking, it can sometimes be deadweight against offensive teams, and it is suscpetible to all forms of hazards and status too. It's ability and power outright deny several defensive and many FWG cores absolutely, but it can be inconsistent at times entirely depending on the opponent's team, either being an MVP or merely death fodder. Substitute can help with offensive switch ins, but that leaves less coverage and cuts even more health.

So I'm not exactly against it rising, but I'm not exactly convinced it deserves it at the moment. Kyurem-B stay in A-, but I'm not staunchly for or against it rising.
 
I wont lie kyurem-black is really good in this meta but i think i agree with jaroda that it shouldent rise but im not against it rising either. The metas getting pretty fast right now with hazard stacking becoming more and more popular and this pretty much forces kyurem-b to use a move slot on roost as it will get worn down really fast. Not to mention trends like weavile can beat kyurem-b and a ton of the mons higher up on the list can check kyurem and threaten him out like keldeo for example who switchs in on beam and can scare kyurem-b out with fighting stab. I could of seen him rising when the meta was leaning towards a more bulky inviroment but for now i think he should stay in A-.
 
I'm simply here to say Lando shouldn't drop. It's previous "best sets" (scarf and bulky) are currently it's worst, and they are the sets it's being mainly judged on. Lando's best sets in the current meta are the SD ones. As SketchUp says, there is more than just SD 3 attacks too, there is double dance and even SubSalac SD, which can help it do work against faster teams, with all 3 of them being very effective in the current meta. It also still has it's offensive SR set, which seems to be rare now and people often think it's a standard bulky one (plz don't use that, RockyChomp is so much better), but unlike it has enough bulk to get by and can 2HKO some rather bulky stuff with a max adamant EPlate EQ, which can become OHKOs with SD.

Basically, people rate Lando on it's old outdated sets far too much, while it should stay A+ for the SD and offensive SR sets.
 

Finchinator

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Don't post here too often, but been playing some ORAS and watching a lot of the games recently, so figured I would throw my two cents into the pot.

As AM and Vertex said above, Zard-Y is fine where it is in A.

Nothing really makes Zard-Y any better than it was before - it is still kept in check by Latios, Latias, Mega Latias, Mega Altaria, Talonflame, Mega Zard-X, Dragalge, and a couple other less noteworthy things. We all acknowledge the fact that sun boosted Fire Blast from Zard-Y tears through anything that it hits neutrally not named Chansey and the fact that Focus Blast + Solarbeam coverage is very helpful to pick off what Fire Blast cannot, but Zard-Y requires more team support than pretty much everything else in the metagame - so much that it has a specific archetype (Zard-Y + Pursuit+ Defog Lati or Spin Starmie + three that are usually similar as the team needs to check certain things - see Valentine's RMT if you're curious as the XY variants have various parallels to ORAS variants) dedicated to it while Zard-Y doesn't function too well outside of this type of team. A Pokemon in A+ like Keldeo, Landorus-T, Garchomp, etc. can easily be fit into many teams regardless of the structure (obviously you won't throw a random Keldeo onto a stall team, but outside of that they're pretty universal) despite having a fair amount of checks or counters. Zard-Y isn't being slapped onto many teams without the aforementioned support as it needs Pursuit support to not be deadweight against many teams and it is 4x weak to rocks. Given the fact that Zard-Y has a fair amount of checks and counters while needing lots of support to prosper in the current metagame, it falls short of A+ rank and belongs just below it in A rank.

Regular Metagross should rise from D to C or C+.

It currently resides in D rank which is classified as:
D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that hold a low amount of viability. Their positive traits are normally hindered by their negative traits.
Obviously regular Metagross has a limited niche given that it: A) only has one noteworthy set, in AV, to my knowledge, B) doesn't wall a substantial portion of the metagame or even special attackers in the tier with AV due to its typing and speed, and C) often is not worth using in teambuilding as special tanks like SDef Skarm, Ferro, Mixed Def Clef, Jirachi, etc. are all fairly common. However, it has seen use in various higher level matches lately (one of Shake's WCOP games and one of Tesung's WCOP games) and this is for a good reason - Meta can wall/trap Latis, act as a stop to common fairies like Clefable, Mega Diancie, Mega Garde, etc., annoy some other threats like Tornadus-T, Mega-Alakazam, Mega-Venusaur, Serperior, KyuremB, etc., and still maintain a fair offensive presence (meaning the negative traits don't often outweigh the positives which should be the case for D ranked Pokemon).

It should rise to C or C+ because it has a practical use and has been seen on solid teams while Pokemon in D and C- rank are almost always outclassed or obsoleted (examples: Mega Camerupt is way too slow to warrant using it, especially when it wastes the mega slot, as an SR user or special attacker when there are various common SR grounds and offensive fire types in the tier, Jellicent is far too passive and slow for a Pokemon vulnerable to knock off to function when there are plenty of Keldeo checks and utility Pokemon viable, and Chandelure being SR weak, frail, and slow makes it inferior almost every special attacker out there in comparison - Metagross has flaws, but it has a distinct niche and more viability than any of these). Pokemon with limited utility - defensively or offensively - like Cobalion, Seismitoad, etc. that reside in C+ have a comparable amount of viability to Metagross, in my opinion. Given all of this, regular Metagross should rise to C+ or at least C.

Tangrowth should rise from B- to B.

I don't think many people use Tang, although I could be mistaken, but it's an exceptional AV user that offers a lot to balanced or bulkier teams. The first pro of Tang that stands out to me is its movepool and offensive presence; Leaf Storm, Giga Drain, Hidden Power (fire usually), Sludge Bomb, Knock Off, Rock Slide, Earthquake, and even some other moves like Focus Blast can easily find their way onto Tang's moveset depending on what you need it to hit on the team it is being used on (I personally use Leaf Storm / Knock Off / HP Fire / Sludge Bomb). It has 100 base attack and 110 base SAtk which allow it to not be too weak despite usually not being invested in offenses due to need for SDef investment, too, so with this coverage and the defensive capabilities of Tang, which I will mention later, it is a pain to switch into at times and it is a pain to kill for many teams.

Defensively speaking, you need to invest in SDef with AV to let you check a lot of special attackers still, but with investment and naturally high HP+Def, Tang makes it work. Regenerator is a godsend, although it still appreciates hazard removal and even wish or cleric support, as it can maximize Tang's survivability despite it being unable to use a recovery move. Going into the specific defensive niche it has, Tang can switch into a lot of things without taking too much such as Keldeo, Excadrill, Garchomp, LandoT, Rotom-W, Raikou, unboosted Manaphy (even lives a +3 Ice Beam when healthy, but generally not a reliable counter in the long term), and even Latis (Draco does a fair amount, but not enough to break it and then it's forced out or gets Knocked Off) - it does match up poorly with quite a few common threats and I acknowledge this, but it also functions very well when dealing with the a plethora of threats, mainly those I just mentioned.

The defensive or tanky pokemon in B rank tend to have a niche in checking a fair amount of threats, but also having noteworthy flaws that prevent them from being top tier walls - this same classification can be applied to Tang. For example, Tentacruel can spin and check things like Keldeo and resist fairy, but it tends to be a bit frail on the physical side and is usually back-seated for Starmie as a spinner, Zapdos can also get rid of hazards, but it lacks the ability to withstand a lot of hits (almost all offensive A or S rank pokes can 2hko it) and is SR weak, etc. The defensive or tanky pokemon in B- tend to have more blatant flaws or drawbacks that seriously detract from their viability - Conk is too slow and weak to break things while it's vulnerable defensively even with AV, Mandibuzz has a hit or miss defensive typing and is SR weak, and Sylveon is typically in the shadow of Clefable while the specs set is hardly used seriously as far as I know. Tangrowth fits well with the B rank pokes and given its effectiveness, I think a rise is warranted.
 
Garchomp for S
With some recent flash discussions in the IRC chat regarding sand veil garchomp, it got me interested. Prior to the test, I believed sand veil to be an inferior ability to rough skin. I thought SV-abusing SD garchomp would be an absolute garbage that happens to be too slow, too weak, and too inconsistent. I thought the weather being no longer permanent, too, was going to make SV SD garchomp subpar. After giving garchomp sand and paralysis support, I've come to realize SV SD garchomp is truly a monster. It only needs a free turn or two to really set up via sub and/or SD to demolish teams. Even though sand isn't permanent, 5 turns is more than enough for garchomp to almost always get a free turn out of 4 substitutes he can get, especially with paralysis support.

Additionally, I noticed was that abusing sand veil was much easier this generation because of two factors: sand veil buff and the weather war being practically non-existent. Sand veil was buffed back in gen 5 or gen 6 from 20% to 25% chance to miss. And this was a rather nice buff (like I can tell). Furthermore, since the weather war is almost non-existent and sand is still extremely prevalent, it was rather easy for garchomp to TRY to abuse SV.

Now, the reason why I'm mentioning SV SD garchomp is to potentially make a case for garchomp being in S. Garchomp has taken a more defensive role as of late and its impish tank set is really the only one that gets recognized. This is evident in our OU set viability list where the tank set is the only A+ set with others ranging from B+ to A. In my honest opinion, I believe garchomp's offensive SD set that abuses sand veil, which is very easy to do, is ridiculously powerful. And as a combination of the SV SD set getting recognized as an amazing set, along with its wide range of other decent to great sets, I feel like I can make a case for garchomp to be boosted into S.

I understand this will most likely be an extremely unpopular opinion. But I'd like ask others to at least consider trying it out for a good discussion. I don't mind criticisms and strong objections...as long as it gives off a good debate (I'm terrible in debate but still wanted to make a case).

And at last, I'd like to say this is clearly not an idea that was started by myself but some people in the irc chat and doughboy, at least for this generation. doughboy's team that was in the "Team Showcase" section has intrigued me to test SV SD garchomp out. While I can't say I agree with sand veil being broken and/or overpowered, I believe it's extremely easy to abuse...especially for garchomp.

link to doughboy's team: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...g-that-is-raging-peaked-1-on-suspect.3539069/
 

bludz

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I'm not against a rise for Tangrowth, but I'd like to see an argument which compares it to Amoonguss which just fell considering they share a fair number of traits. I think that'd outline the reasons for a rise a little better. I'd do it myself but I really don't use either pokemon much

I'm against Lando-T dropping to A and it's because of offensive sets. Scarf is kind of garbage and defensive is even worse. Earth Plate is a serious menace for anything that isn't immune to ground or straight up resist it. SD sets tear balance a new one and RP is viable outside of double dance actually. For all the setup possibilities this mon has it takes advantage of a great ability and typing so yeah I think it's just too good to drop still. Honestly though it is borderline A+ at the moment and I think if the metagame continues the way that it's been going I could see a drop.

I could see Infernape to B although I haven't used enough different sets. I've run LO mix wallbreaker and it's pretty solid although not enough to push it to B on its own. I guess the fact that it has a bunch of different set and move options is a pretty solid argument. Scarf sounds underrated as hell considering it can pack U-turn and has a really solid speed tier.
 
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Garchomp for S
With some recent flash discussions in the IRC chat regarding sand veil garchomp, it got me interested. Prior to the test, I believed sand veil to be an inferior ability to rough skin. I thought SV-abusing SD garchomp would be an absolute garbage that happens to be too slow, too weak, and too inconsistent. I thought the weather being no longer permanent, too, was going to make SV SD garchomp subpar. After giving garchomp sand and paralysis support, I've come to realize SV SD garchomp is truly a monster. It only needs a free turn or two to really set up via sub and/or SD to demolish teams. Even though sand isn't permanent, 5 turns is more than enough for garchomp to almost always get a free turn out of 4 substitutes he can get, especially with paralysis support.

Additionally, I noticed was that abusing sand veil was much easier this generation because of two factors: sand veil buff and the weather war being practically non-existent. Sand veil was buffed back in gen 5 or gen 6 from 20% to 25% chance to miss. And this was a rather nice buff (like I can tell). Furthermore, since the weather war is almost non-existent and sand is still extremely prevalent, it was rather easy for garchomp to TRY to abuse SV.

Now, the reason why I'm mentioning SV SD garchomp is to potentially make a case for garchomp being in S. Garchomp has taken a more defensive role as of late and its impish tank set is really the only one that gets recognized. This is evident in our OU set viability list where the tank set is the only A+ set with others ranging from B+ to A. In my honest opinion, I believe garchomp's offensive SD set that abuses sand veil, which is very easy to do, is ridiculously powerful. And as a combination of the SV SD set getting recognized as an amazing set, along with its wide range of other decent to great sets, I feel like I can make a case for garchomp to be boosted into S.

I understand this will most likely be an extremely unpopular opinion. But I'd like ask others to at least consider trying it out for a good discussion. I don't mind criticisms and strong objections...as long as it gives off a good debate (I'm terrible in debate but still wanted to make a case).

And at last, I'd like to say this is clearly not an idea that was started by myself but some people in the irc chat and doughboy, at least for this generation. doughboy's team that was in the "Team Showcase" section has intrigued me to test SV SD garchomp out. While I can't say I agree with sand veil being broken and/or overpowered, I believe it's extremely easy to abuse...especially for garchomp.

link to doughboy's team: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...g-that-is-raging-peaked-1-on-suspect.3539069/
Garchomp recently got denied for S rank within the last 2 or so weeks. It is a great glue mon but it is NOT S rank material at all. I would rather see Keldeo, Manaphy, and Tornadus-T rise before Garchomp, and none of them deserve it either at the moment. Garchomp will need a serious meta shift before it is close to S rank, especially with the recent move of Megazard X to S, which can OHKO even tankchomp from full health. Of course there is always the possibility of Scarf, but Megazard X will already have this information by the time it wants to set up.
 
: Weavile is amazing in the meta currently, with the majority of offensive teams STILL being astonishingly weak to it and most of the others only carrying one check to it (most commonly Keldeo). However I am against Wevile rising to A+ for the simple reason that, due to it being easily worn down from LO and potential SR, it often can't afford be self sufficient by wearing down its own counters with Knock Off and instead must rely on its teammates to pave the way for it to start putting in work (though when the way is paved the results are well worth it). This is quite unlike some of the other A+ ranks such as Keldeo (Scald), Latios (Draco), Torn-T (U-turn and Knock Off) and a few others to a lesser extent, who have the ability to be self sufficient enough to muscle past/wear down their own counters thus requiring far less support as they are their own support. This is what is keeping Weavile down imo; the support required for it to function.

: This is something I disagree with as Lando-T is adapting to the meta as both Landorus formes always have since their introduction (which is actually quite recent but whatever). This topic has been covered by others before me so I won't go too much into depth but the reason Lando-T should stay A+ is not the Scarf or Defensive set which probably warrant an A rank if it only had that but the SD variants of Lando-T. These range from Double Dance which many people underrate because they don't understand that it doesn't need to set up both SD and an RP to win in every situation. There are plenty of situations where just SD will do the trick (vs slower teams) or just
RP is sufficient (vs faster teams). Then there are others such as SubSDSalac, SD+Three attacks and LO+RP which are all effective in their own right and make Landorus-T A+ worthy imo. And then there is Sub+SD+RP Fly: The best set in existence.
 
personally tangagrowth has quite a few things going for it over amoongus. For one tangagrowth has some pretty impressive bulk compared to amoongus who just has typing,utility and hp. Tanga has better overall defensive bulk (see AV set) and also unlike amoongus is not passive and has pretty good and powerful moves at its disposal with decent mixed offensive stats. Amoongus really has to rely on spore And just sits there so is overwhelmed fast. Tanga can hit decently hard and has earthquake to bop stuff like tran or leaf storm to smack waters and grounds harder then amoon. Also gets knock off which gives it nice utility. Mono grass is still a good defensive typing as well and phys def sets handle lopbetter then amoon can. I guess amoongus has better utility and hp but Tanga is more threatening for a defensive mon. I think tanga should rise for that reason.
 

SJCrew

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That statement is the only silly thing here. Clef has 95, 73, 90 bulk as a defensive mon. Keldeos bulk (who was S rank a while ago) is 91, 90, 90 as an offensive one. Clefs bulk is far from good for a defensive mon, even fully invested with leftovers it can barely live the hits it wants to. Clef is S rank for a reason, but the reason is not its massive physical bulk. Keldeo has an univested def Value of 216, Clef with 160 def EVs gets 222, and Weavile can barely break that with neutral stab hits. That IS weak. And beeing fast doesn't help if your frail as fuck and to weak to ohko because you can't take the echo.
You need a reality check. Half the meta dies to either its STABs or Low Kick and all you have to go on is this piss-weak argument that it's not strong enough to break two checks that it does around 40% to, removes their Leftovers, and one of which can't even recover. What were you expecting, Kyurem-B? It's not even a wallbeaker, but it might as well be when a good chunk of our premier walls are Ground or Psychic types. Weavile moves down when things like Thundurus, Latios, Latias, Garchomp, Serperior, Altaria, Landorus-T, Tornadus-T become less prominent than its checks, not when someone posts exaggerated bullshit and irrelevant stats that we already know.
 
I'm supporting the nomination of regular Metagross to C-, or even C. AV Gross is definitely the only reason why regular Metagross should rise, it checks any fairies that M-Venusaur would have trouble with. e.g. M-Garde. With the only real fairies giving Metagross trouble being Azumarill (especially the ones carrying Knock Off) and M-Altaria (mainly the physical set carrying EQ).

But the great thing about Metagross is that it can run max sp.def and still hit hard with a plus nature in attack. (Which in my opinion really doesn't matter, since Metagross alone will make most fairies switch.)

Calcs:
252+ SpA Mega Gardevoir Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Metagross: 98-116 (26.9 - 31.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ SpA Mega Altaria Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Metagross: 134-158 (36.8 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Metagross still wins with Meteor Mash + BP combo. DD Altaria is better anyway.
252 SpA Mega Diancie Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Metagross: 130-154 (35.7 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

4+ Atk Metagross Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 232-276 (96.2 - 114.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
Was pretty obvious because of the x4 weakness.
4+ Atk Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 254-302 (86.9 - 103.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
As said before, wins with Meteor Mash + BP combo. But just an example to show that uninvested Gross is still power.

Max sp.def works well on bulky offensive teams and is great for enforcing fairies to switch with Pursuit providing chip damage to M-Garde, but if you just want a solid fairy check with an easy OHKO, run max attack.
Edit: AV set is also great for providing a check to the Lati twins with Pursuit and resisting both of Lati's stabs.
 
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Garchomp for S
With some recent flash discussions in the IRC chat regarding sand veil garchomp, it got me interested. Prior to the test, I believed sand veil to be an inferior ability to rough skin. I thought SV-abusing SD garchomp would be an absolute garbage that happens to be too slow, too weak, and too inconsistent. I thought the weather being no longer permanent, too, was going to make SV SD garchomp subpar. After giving garchomp sand and paralysis support, I've come to realize SV SD garchomp is truly a monster. It only needs a free turn or two to really set up via sub and/or SD to demolish teams. Even though sand isn't permanent, 5 turns is more than enough for garchomp to almost always get a free turn out of 4 substitutes he can get, especially with paralysis support.

Additionally, I noticed was that abusing sand veil was much easier this generation because of two factors: sand veil buff and the weather war being practically non-existent. Sand veil was buffed back in gen 5 or gen 6 from 20% to 25% chance to miss. And this was a rather nice buff (like I can tell). Furthermore, since the weather war is almost non-existent and sand is still extremely prevalent, it was rather easy for garchomp to TRY to abuse SV.

Now, the reason why I'm mentioning SV SD garchomp is to potentially make a case for garchomp being in S. Garchomp has taken a more defensive role as of late and its impish tank set is really the only one that gets recognized. This is evident in our OU set viability list where the tank set is the only A+ set with others ranging from B+ to A. In my honest opinion, I believe garchomp's offensive SD set that abuses sand veil, which is very easy to do, is ridiculously powerful. And as a combination of the SV SD set getting recognized as an amazing set, along with its wide range of other decent to great sets, I feel like I can make a case for garchomp to be boosted into S.

I understand this will most likely be an extremely unpopular opinion. But I'd like ask others to at least consider trying it out for a good discussion. I don't mind criticisms and strong objections...as long as it gives off a good debate (I'm terrible in debate but still wanted to make a case).

And at last, I'd like to say this is clearly not an idea that was started by myself but some people in the irc chat and doughboy, at least for this generation. doughboy's team that was in the "Team Showcase" section has intrigued me to test SV SD garchomp out. While I can't say I agree with sand veil being broken and/or overpowered, I believe it's extremely easy to abuse...especially for garchomp.

link to doughboy's team: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...g-that-is-raging-peaked-1-on-suspect.3539069/
I've used SD garchomp with SV and I agree the lack of weather war, abundance of sand, and sand veil giving you 1.25 times evasiveness has been rather have all contributed to SV SD garchomp being more abusable. At least, that's how I felt like. That's the problem though, it's not always reliable and it takes a while to get going unless, ofc, your opponent immediately misses and lets you set up. It also needs quit a bit of support: sand and paralysis. Garchomp doesn't have a mean to boost its "mediocre" speed to sweep without paralysis support so it's a must. I honestly don't think the SV SD set's prowess is enough to grant it a spot in S.
 
You need a reality check. Half the meta dies to either its STABs or Low Kick and all you have to go on is this piss-weak argument that it's not strong enough to break two checks that it does around 40% to, removes their Leftovers, and one of which can't even recover. What were you expecting, Kyurem-B? It's not even a wallbeaker, but it might as well be when a good chunk of our premier walls are Ground or Psychic types. Weavile moves down when things like Thundurus, Latios, Latias, Garchomp, Serperior, Altaria, Landorus-T, Tornadus-T become less prominent than its checks, not when someone posts exaggerated bullshit and irrelevant stats that we already know.
And you need to stop raging and start using your brain if you have one. There are far more than 2 checks around. If you need a list of checks and counters here we go: Zard X, Clefable, Azu, Keldeo, Lopunny, Sableeye, Mega Scizor, Talonflame, Ferrothorn, Mega Manetric, Rotom-W, Skarmory, Mega Venusaur, Mega Kazam, Mega Aero, Klefki, Mega Slowbro, Mega Heracross, Cune, Quagsire, normal Scizor, Tentacruel, Conkeldurr, Infernape, Sylveon. Hell even Hippo can be considered a check since he lives any hit and ohkos back with Stone Edge after Sand + LO damage. And like Albacore mentioned, while Weavile can wear down its checks/counters in theory with Knock off it will rarely outlast them due to its def stats/typing/LO Damage.

Add to that the things that can live a hit and hit back, the SR weakness, the horrible defensive typing and non existing defensive stats and you have a package thats certainly usefull against lots of offensive mons but is far away from A+ and imo hardly even A. B+/A- would be more fitting imo. But i am not even saying it needs to move down, my main point is that it shouldn't move up.
 
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And you need to stop raging and start using your brain if you have one. There are far more than 2 checks around. If you need a list of checks and counters here we go: Zard X, Clefable, Azu, Keldeo, Lopunny, Sableeye, Mega Scizor, Talonflame, Ferrothorn, Mega Manetric, Rotom-W, Skarmory, Mega Venusaur, Mega Kazam, Mega Aero, Klefki, Mega Slowbro, Mega Heracross, Cune, Quagsire, normal Scizor, Tentacruel, Conkeldurr, Infernape, Sylveon. Hell even Hippo can be considered a check since he lives any hit and ohkos back with Stone Edge after Sand + LO damage.

Add to that the things that can live a hit and hit back, the SR weakness, the horrible defensive typing and non existing defensive stats and you have a package thats certainly usefull against lots of offensive mons but is far away from A+ and imo hardly even A. B+/A- would be more fitting imo. But i am not even saying it needs to move down, my main point is that it shouldn't move up.
I agree it shouldn't go to A+ for reasons already mentioned but I just wanna say that many of these checks and counters are outsped by Weavile so most of them have to be able to swallow two hits and with just some prior damage many of them actually can't. So I think you are doing some disservice to Weavile as it works extremely well against offensive teams and ice stab plus stab knock off is an amazing and unique quality no one but Weavile (and Sneasel) has. Weavile is fine at A. It has awesome speed, some really cool moves and preys on many popular mons atm but is also worn down quickly, especially with sr on the field.

Also, I think defensive Infernape can be considered as a Weavile counter ^^
 
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DarkNostalgia

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And you need to stop raging and start using your brain if you have one. There are far more than 2 checks around. If you need a list of checks and counters here we go: Zard X, Clefable, Azu, Keldeo, Lopunny, Sableeye, Mega Scizor, Talonflame, Ferrothorn, Mega Manetric, Rotom-W, Skarmory, Mega Venusaur, Mega Kazam, Mega Aero, Klefki, Mega Slowbro, Mega Heracross, Cune, Quagsire, normal Scizor, Tentacruel, Conkeldurr, Infernape, Sylveon. Hell even Hippo can be considered a check since he lives any hit and ohkos back with Stone Edge after Sand + LO damage.

Add to that the things that can live a hit and hit back, the SR weakness, the horrible defensive typing and non existing defensive stats and you have a package thats certainly usefull against lots of offensive mons but is far away from A+ and imo hardly even A. B+/A- would be more fitting imo. But i am not even saying it needs to move down, my main point is that it shouldn't move up.
Lol you need to stop insulting people as well. You're really undermining Weavile's effectiveness to be honest, and looking at such as narrow standpoint is unfair. Over half of these aren't even that reliable of answers to Weavile because of the extremely annoying move that Weavile possesses called Knock Off, rendering a lot of otherwise-solid switch-ins such as Keldeo, Clefable, and Azumarill crippled. Zard X isn't even a reliable answer when Knock Off / Low Kick + Icicle Crash is a solid KO. I've talked about Clefable before - "You're neglecting the fact that Clefable is overloaded at times, and as such, will not always be at full health due to its requirement to pivot in and check a variety of Pokemon such as Kyurem-B, Mega Lopunny, and Keldeo. Magic Guard Clefable loses to Weavile when it has taken around 10% damage as Icicle Crash then 2HKOes, and all variants of Clefable hate switching into Knock Off as without Leftovers Clefable is stripped of its ability to reliably check aforementioned threats. Swords Dance Weavile is also a legitimate set that completely cleans out Clefable." Azumarill and Keldeo dislike Knock Off a lot, and can't consistenly switch into Weavile after a Knock Off particularly as they lack reliable recovery, especially as Weavile is faster and after a Knock Off Icicle Crash 2HKOes both of them. Lopunny can't switch in whatsoever. Mega Sableye is a counter only for Calm Mind variants, as utility Mega Sableye is 2HKOed by Icicle Crash after Stealth Rock. Mega Scizor yes it's a counter. Talonflame lol, it can't switch into anything bar Low Kick, and most of the time Weavile uses its STAB moves anyway. Ferrothorn is beaten by two consecutive Low Kicks or Knock Off + Low Kick. Mega Manectric can't switch into Icicle Crash, it's only a check. Rotom-W hates Knock Off, it's only a check as it lacks recovery and can't switch in repeatedly. Skarmory isn't even a counter lol when Knock Off is its worst enemy and Brave Bird only does like 50% back and Weavile 3HKOes, not to mention specially defensive sets (the best ones right now), are KOed by the combination of Knock Off + Icicle Crash. Mega Venusuar isn't a counter lol, a check at best. A check =/= revenge killer, remember that. Mega Alakazam is shaky as fuck when everything bar Low Kick does a fuckton to it if not outright OHKO. Mega Aerodactyl lol, the Icicle Crash switch-in. Klefki and Mega Slowbro are good counters. Mega Heracross is 2HKOed by Icicle Crash and outsped as well, conveniently. Quagsire and Suicune yes sort of but losing Leftovers is detrimental, more of hard checks if anything, and rely on Scald. Vanilla Scizor yeah but Scizor without a Choice Band is kinda meh. Tentacruel lol. Conkeldurr isn't a counter because it hates losing its Life Orb / Assault Vest and can't switch into Icicle Crash. Only physically defensive Sylveon, which is kinda meh, counters Weavile.

A lot of these supposed checks you've pulled out lose to Swords Dance Weavile and the various offensive pressure Weavile exerts (get it?). Yep, Weavile should definitely remain A. Albacore pretty much summed it up in his earlier post so I encourage you to read that, but a drop at this time is extremely un-justifiable. Weavile thrives in this metagame because of the fast-paced nature, the emergence of ubuquitious beneficial metagame trends such as Garchomp, Tornadus-T, and Mega Altaria, the overall utility of Knock Off, an excellent Speed tier + priority, and the ability to overwhelm its checks.

TL;DR Weavile stays A rank unless stall becomes the norm or something and Tornadus-T gets zero usage.
 
And you need to stop raging and start using your brain if you have one. There are far more than 2 checks around. If you need a list of checks and counters here we go: Zard X, Clefable, Azu, Keldeo, Lopunny, Sableeye, Mega Scizor, Talonflame, Ferrothorn, Mega Manetric, Rotom-W, Skarmory, Mega Venusaur, Mega Kazam, Mega Aero, Klefki, Mega Slowbro, Mega Heracross, Cune, Quagsire, normal Scizor, Tentacruel, Conkeldurr, Infernape, Sylveon. Hell even Hippo can be considered a check since he lives any hit and ohkos back with Stone Edge after Sand + LO damage. And like Albacore mentioned, while Weavile can wear down its checks/counters in theory with Knock off it will rarely outlast them due to its def stats/typing/LO Damage.

Add to that the things that can live a hit and hit back, the SR weakness, the horrible defensive typing and non existing defensive stats and you have a package thats certainly usefull against lots of offensive mons but is far away from A+ and imo hardly even A. B+/A- would be more fitting imo. But i am not even saying it needs to move down, my main point is that it shouldn't move up.

You really are exaggerating Weavile's flaws beyond belief. Skarmory, Scizor, Klefki and Ferrothorn are unreliable answers to Weavile because they all get trapped by Magnezone, a mon commonly found on Weavile teams.

Venusaur needs to have safely Mega Evolved before it can come in on Icicle Crash. Quagsire is only really found on heavy stall lol so the fact you bring up the fact Weavile is countered by it when Weavile is in A for it's capabilities against offense is really quite laughable. That leaves only two reliable switch ins that offense teams have at their disposal; keldeo and azumarill, both mons that are easily worn down by weavile as well as being crippled by knock off. Considering that the meta is getting faster and more offensive Weavile definitely is deserving of it's place in A rank due to the limited switch ins that exist to it on offensive teams and the existence of many mons high in viability that are forced out by it.

Also Rotom-W is not a very reliable counter at all because it has a chance to be 2hko'd by Weavile's Knock Off if rocks are up:

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 138-164 (45.5 - 54.1%) -- 94.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 94-110 (31 - 36.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

It's already been mentioned as well that mixed Clefable has a chance to be 2hko'd by Weavile the next time if it has to come in on Icicle Crash so claiming that mons like this can easily outlast Weavile is also laughable. Yeah full physically defensive Clefable is a counter but have fun with trying to use it then to check mons like Manaphy and Thundurus which is often something that Clefable is left tasked to deal with on a team.
 
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bludz

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Yeah I don't know why we're still entertaining this argument when not many people actually want Weavile to move to A+ and the one person saying it should move down named Rotom-W as a counter lol.

Personally I think Suicune should be moved down to B and I've been saying this for a while. Okay its bulk is great but its form of recovery is Rest meaning you only need to be able to 3HKO it not 2HKO it. After that, the CM set is pretty much setup fodder otherwise relying on Scald burns entirely to be worth anything (unless the other squad actually can't 3HKO lol). Yeah I get Scald is great but forreal this is just straight up fishing. Roar sets are okay I guess but yeah. I just don't see this thing as a B+ threat simply because it loses to most of the other CM sweepers in the tier and its recovery / sleep talk are just not the best whatsoever.
 
Yay more Infernape talk! :D

So like I saw people nominating Infernape to move up to B and I say I agree. The main set I think that deserves a mention right now and I also think is why Infernape should rise is the defensive set. The defensive Infernape set counters a Pokemon that is getting a lot of attention lately, and that is Weavile. I mean, this thing is a surefire answer to Weavile and even offensive Infernape can check it decently, or as decently as a Pokemon on offense can get. All the Dark spam that's going on between Weavile, Bisharp, and Tyranitar, combined with (Mega) Scizor being so common right now increases the viability of Infernape's defensive set and of course we all know that increases overall viability.

Then there's also other relevant points like that insane versatility and being able to lure and kill, well, ANYTHING really, for any Pokemon. Mixed wallbreaker sets are really hard to wall and in a way it's like Manaphy that you need to scout its moveset first but the difference is that Infernape doesn't need to set up and can deal way more damage as soon as it gets in. Now, I'm not saying Infernape is better than Manaphy as Manaphy does have other things over it like much better bulk, great boosting move, etc. but I'm just comparing them in the sense that they can both pick and choose their checks and counters and completely obliterate other would be counters with the right attack. Honestly right now balance doesn't have much to switch into Flare Blitz/Fire Blast, Close Combat, Gunk Shot and either HP Ice/Grass Knot.

Infernape to B
 
Seconding the Suicune drop. Suicune itself just doesn't seem that great compared to the other mons in B+. First off, rest is bad recovery. Yeah it's nice that it removes statuses but even with sleep talk you're pretty much comparable to a mon with Truant, which makes Suicune set up bait (lol bulky Gyarados) if its lacking roar. Suicune is also very prone to phazers. You can say that with almost any mon, but it's much more apparent when Suicune is asleep and can't do shit but scald and calm mind.
 
Noming Gastrodon from B- to B
This thing is arguably the best check to electric types, you have a mega manectric weakness on your team, stap a gastro on it, you have a weakness to rain, slap a gastro on it... Gastro has a very nice movepool and underrated bulk. With some of the best typing in the game, how is this thing not B rank?
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 179-212 (42 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
This is a very easy mon to build around and is a pain in the ass to take down... Its about time gastro gets the respect it deserves. Gastro is an extremely antimeta mon and checks most of the high rank mons in this metagame
 
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