OU Is Snorlax Banworthy in GSC OU?

[Borat]

the entire point of bringing up mono electric is that electrics are really good in gen 2 and it shouldn't be an instant handicap to use 6.

...yes it should. that's the whole point. it is an instant handicap by definition. you're FORCING yourself to use electrics. how is this not an instant handicap?

there are countless teams which get zero competitive use because he exists.

name one. mono psychic? countless teams get zero competitive use because they all suck. again, feel free to name a good team that gets zero use solely due to snorlax.

alakazam becomes no more viable than it is now -- very situational. he's held back offensively as much as he is defensively. he can't switch into shit. offensively you'll still have a hell of a time "sweeping" with dual punches and psychic or some shit, while serving no purpose other than to wall gengar. i guarantee zam still sucks major dick without snorlax and will not be played at all in top tier teams. mr.e the master of the zam feel free to chime in on zam's suckitude.

blissey is one pokemon that'll benefit heavily from a snorlax ban. this is why everything will in most part remain the same. blissey might even vie for an S spot.

 

[Karxrida]

Some strats and Pokes just suck and aren't meant of work, so why should we care about those? Some really are bad because they're outclassed, should we ban the mons that outclass them just so they'll be viable? That's what the lower tiers and OMs like Monotype are for in the first place.

 

[Lavos]

point made and understood, my thought process was flawed. was making a connection between stuff that's bad and stuff that deserves to be good for no apparent reason. thanks for clarifying and sorry.

 

[Borat]

i can't tell if you're sarcastic. again, i don't mean to shoot you down as much as i'm asking for clarification on "which specifically". i'd love if somebody can find something truly innovative to put the spark back in the gen. i've been waiting 8 years for the next vaporeon to change the game.

maybe it's easier to find bugs in the simulator vs catridge to jump start a new meta as crystal's done with rby?

 

[Lavos]

no i'm not being sarcastic, that was a genuine apology for wasting your time with a bad argument.

as far as stuff that's semi innovative goes:

growth/bp/mean look/hp fire umbreon
sub/curse/return/roar kanga
sd pass scizor on a team that isnt dedicated to passing
aerodactyl
double nidos
spore/spikes/mirror coat/destiny bond lead smeargle

these are things i've used or seen used recently. but i assume they've all been done before. what hasn't been done before?

i have a new copy of crystal coming in the mail so i'll let you know if i find any bugs! recently learned about the counter/sleep talk interaction.

edit: Mr.E it's my favorite pokemon :/ i'll change it just for you though..

 

[Borat]

counter rhydon/nido can surprise kill zapdos. counter on nido is good for stuff like snorlax too. counter + eq kills iirc. counter houndoom too.

i think a lot of things work as a surprise move, but that isn't the point of finding something truly good. there needs to be some level of consistency.

 

[Mr.E]

"oh that's not hipmonlee" lavos pls y u do dis

Snorlax really is basically the whole problem with Zam though. Zam's not bulky but it's resilient enough on the special side to Recover through shit if it has to. It's very good at creating offensive pressure because it hits really hard, Psychic 2HKOs most physical attackers and even Raikou is borderline 3HKOed, and Encore causes all sorts of problem for defensive mons by threatening to lock them out of recovery (or in it...) and setting up guaranteed safe switches. Encore even kinda beats Umbreon/Ttar (though Ttar Pursuit is strong enough you'll never make headway against its Leftovers until you status it with your elemental punch) and makes Zam the best non-phazer at handling trappers. Encore is awesome, it beats everything Zam can't simply punch in the mouth. Except Snorlax, unfortunately. Nothing else can switch in so safely to Zam and reverse its offensive pressure. Encore doesn't stop Snorlax from slapping Zam around with its STAB attack of choice, since Body Slam PAR fucks it and Return/DE 2HKO. That and Zam has PP problems. *shrug*

But it's not like every special attacker, except some Vaporeon sets, doesn't get the dick from Snorlax anyway. I don't think Snorlax is doing much to hold back most stuff, they hold themselves back by just not being very good in the first place. It would mostly just help some of the bottom-feeders of current OU play like Jynx, Houndoom, our good buddy Alakazam. Zam's cool though.

 

[Borat]

zam's speed is a big part of why he does remotely anything. espeon would be a lot more playable if it wasn't so scared of being statused by shit. so unless you're running bell, zam doesn't do half the things you say. you'd be wary of switching into stun spore/sleep powder, thunders, lovely kiss, bodyslam, hell probably even toxic.

i really think in a snorlax-less meta blissey is gonna be the tits since the meta just got a lot less physical. so in that sense, i guess you'll always have bell. but then you'd always have a blissey to deal with also. one step forward, one step back.

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

Still, less of a headache for Blissey and that's all she needs.

Snorlax neuters a lot of Pokemon, but so does everything else. In Snorlax, you just got a mon that does the offense and defense in one team slot. It's a great ability and nobody does it the way it can. I like Alakazam, but what does it do to Blissey, (ST) Suicune, Umbreon, etc. These are Pokemon that are already used (or are OU at least) and each get better at doing their defensive jobs when Snorlax goes away. Right now, the best defensive mons have to be extremely careful when dealing with either Curse, Belly Drum, or Lovely Kiss (not seeing the BD coming sucks).

Snorlax is probably the reason why a decent amount of mons are able to execute their offenses in the first place.

 

[gorgie]

the metagame is perfectly fine and has been perfectly fine for a very, very long time.

and did Lavos Spawn really bring up the idea of a GSC Council?

 

[Lavos]

nope that was borat, refer to page 2 of this thread. i just voiced support for it because there's a lot of discussion on things we can try and absolutely nothing gets done

 

[Cheryl.]

Snorlax is definitely ban worthy. He has an entire RANK dedicated to him. He overshadows other normal types like Ursaring and Kangaskhan thanks to his lordliness. He is way too over centralizing and should be banned, but I don't know, he just feels right in OU. Don't wanna change history, you know?

 

[jaQ]

ursaring sucks though anything on the tier list is better.

his versatility earned him that rank. he's really not that overpowered in any particular category (sweeping, mixed attacking, etc). think of it this way. if snorlax didn't exist, the concept for the item leftovers probably wouldn't exist. gsc would just be rby without speed hax.

 

[Borat]

if snorlax didn't exist, the concept for the item leftovers probably wouldn't exist.

have you ever played gsc? there's been a lot of stupid shit in this thread, but this comment trumps them all.

 

[Mr.E]

I don't think he's talking about competitive use, just that "Snorlax is fat lol it eats a lot I bet it sometimes throws its leftovers in the trash." It's still a dumb post but do make sure you're not lambasting him for the wrong reasons. :)

I like Alakazam, but what does it do to Blissey, (ST) Suicune, Umbreon, etc. These are Pokemon that are already used (or are OU at least) and each get better at doing their defensive jobs when Snorlax goes away. Right now, the best defensive mons have to be extremely careful when dealing with either Curse, Belly Drum, or Lovely Kiss (not seeing the BD coming sucks).

Reading is fundamental: Encore. In the short term, Encore stymies all of them because Zam locks Suicune out of Surf so you can literally switch Marowak into it and then what are they switching into it now because Suicune was their primary answer to Marowak? Or it locks Suicune into Surf, because it's not like Zam can't Recover through that shit, and forces Suicune out to avoid getting killed because it's locked out of Rest (possibly into something that doesn't take Psychic so well). Encore locks Blissey into Heal Bell or Softboiled and forces her to switch out to conserve her own PP, again creating the possibility of smacking around something less bulky with a big Psychic or creating setup space for Mr. Marowak. Umbreon's not the same threat to Zam as it is to Eggy, since it can Recover through Pursuit spam and ____ Punch has enough PP to break Umbreon unlike Giga Drain. You can also just Encore the Toxic if it tries to apply a fresh one before Pursuit, and it also stops anything Mean Look-related.

In the long run, Zam can easily run out of PP and that's basically the only issue it worries about against defensive durdlemons. Just as well, it can also suddenly crit Raikou for 70% and leave a defensive player scrambling before that happens. Blissey can switch into Zam all day but it doesn't put any offensive pressure back on Zam (or its team) like Snorlax can.

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

No, I read. Encore is a great move, but like you said, the issue is that he'll be draining his Psychic PP until he does get an appropriate move Encored. In the long run, since he doesn't sponge, he's far more pressured to actually do something productive before his attacks drain. I mean, at least he can switch in on a predicted Lax Curse/BD and Encore that. No Lax means he's just going to run into more/replacement walls that will also either eat up Psychics or heal/cleric or whatever and switch around your Encores. Just saying that the lack of Snorlax doesn't necessarily make Alakazam's job any easier.

 

[Borat]

encore also has 8 pp. if it had 16, it'd be a lot more viable. simple double switches set you back plenty, not to mention whatever you encore tends to switch out anyway. hopefully the enemy has more than one pokemon that's capable of switching into zam. that shouldn't be too hard :)

zam tends not to do anything "threatening" levels of damage, nuisance levels on a good day. even if you predict wrong, it shouldn't set you back any. and once again, you can't bring zam willy-nilly into shit either.