Serious Legality of prostitution

[Adamant Zoroark]

Another discussion on the legality of a sex-related topic, however, unlike MikeDawg's thread on bestiality, I feel like there's actually enough of a debate here for this to be a topic worth discussing.

I find that basically all of the anti-prostitution arguments boil down to sex trafficking and violence, but as someone who has held a pro-legalization viewpoint for basically as long as I've known prostitution exists, I can't buy these arguments on account of it's more likely these issues are a result of criminalizing prostitution rather than something inherent in prostitution; in fact, legal and regulated prostitution in Nevada has been shown to be safe. I mean, let's face it - there will always be people willing to pay for sex no matter what you do, so why not at least give those willing to provide the service a safe environment? Besides, do you think someone who gets raped while doing an illegal activity is going to go to the police?

I'm trying my best to give anti-prostitution arguments a fair representation in the OP but I'm having a hard time with it, so here's my best shot:

Arguments against legalization:

1. Prostitution is responsible for violence against women and sex trafficking
2. Prostitution is inherently immoral (yeah, I still have yet to find someone who can reasonably argue that two consenting adults having sex suddenly becomes immoral when transaction of money gets added to the equation, but I put this here anyway)
3. We have to criminalize prostitution to fight sex trafficking (yes I know this is basically the same as argument #1, but even procon.org just rehashes points #1 and #2 repeatedly so I honestly had a hard time coming up with a third point)

Arguments for legalization:

1. Most of the danger in prostitution (incl. sex trafficking and violence) is a result of criminalizing it, not because of anything inherent in prostitution
2. Who are you to tell what consenting adults can and cannot do?
3. Legalizing and regulating prostitution would make prostitution safer (for example, testing prostitutes for STDs and requiring condom use)

Basically, just discuss your thoughts on prostitution - are the arguments that regulating prostitution would make it safer reason enough to legalize and regulate it?

 

[Skalaylee]

Personally, my thoughts on this are more for legalizing it.

Germany did a test on this same exact thing. It proved that all violence related to prostitution decreased and it did NOT spread sexually transmitted infections anymore then it usually spreads. In fact it made it more safe for the the "Prostitute" and the "Buyer". Not only that but because it was legal rapes crimes plummeted by 31 percent. Do i think its a good thing to have sex for money no, but if thats what you need to do you are going to do it regardless if its legal or not.

Great thread by the way Adamant Zoroark

 

[UncleSam]

Hmm so I'm definitely in favor of legalizing prostitution but I don't think it's worked out very well in places where it has been legalized because it hasn't been implemented properly.

Initial reading on the subject indicates that legalizing prostitution has been linked to increases in human trafficking and that is does not protect prostitutes from violence when it is legalized. Note that I have not checked these sources thoroughly for bias; they are just the highest Google results on the topic that aren't from obvious BS sources (ie religious sites), and I do not have the time at the moment to conduct a more thorough investigation into this issue.

That being said, my understanding is that the implementation of these institutions has not been handled very well; pimps still abound in such legal brothels and the working conditions are not noticeably different from their illegal counterparts.

So on the whole I'd say that if we were to legalize it (and I feel that there is absolutely no philosophical reason why it shouldn't be legalized, only practical/historical ones) that it should be initially legalized only in very controlled, state-run and state-sanctioned centers in order to ensure that everything is run above board and that the prostitutes, regardless of gender, do not get abused (whether physically, emotionally, or financially).

I'd appreciate further reading on this though if anyone has any good sources they would like to share.

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

UncleSam - proper implementation is definitely a concern, because you do need to make sure conditions do actually improve, since you're not going to get much of a change otherwise. I'm looking around for articles right now and I'll post when I find more.

 

[Myzozoa]

"Prostitutes should be placed in designated quarters. It is not prostitutes who contribute most to the depravity of morals, it is the women of society. In regenerating the latter, the former are changed."-Olympe De Gouges, Sex Worker and Author of the Declaration of the Rights of Women, Post-script. Note that this statement seems to contradict her supposed thesis that women can be liberated by joining themselves in all institutions with men.

As always, the objective conditions of the existence of prostitutes, as beings in a particular place at a particular time, are the first thing that must be attended to if one is to investigate how legislation could affect a positive change on behalf of a specific class . If women are a vulnerable population as women than it makes no sense to say that prostitution should be illegal unless you think a legal prostitution regime would make them more vulnerable or contribute to their disenfranchisement, but all the evidence is to the contrary: legalizing prostitution causes it to become significantly safer for women and legitimizes a way for women to enfranchise themselves. The legislation that affectively makes prostitution legal however, is insufficient to secure women if the objective conditions (such as poverty and lack of opportunity) that expose women's bodies to violence are not attended to.

 

[ginganinja]

Its legal where I live and IIRC I don't really know of any problems it caused with it being legal. TBH, I thought it was already legal in most countries but I guess its not ?_?

 

[internet]

You can't regulate or tax the underworld quite as effectively as you can regulate and tax legal activities.

 

[Shinryu]

Not sure what's the issue with legality, pretty legal in Nevada in certain counties and other parts of the world. Goods and services.

 

[tehy]

Hmm so I'm definitely in favor of legalizing prostitution but I don't think it's worked out very well in places where it has been legalized because it hasn't been implemented properly.

Initial reading on the subject indicates that legalizing prostitution has been linked to increases in human trafficking and that is does not protect prostitutes from violence when it is legalized. Note that I have not checked these sources thoroughly for bias; they are just the highest Google results on the topic that aren't from obvious BS sources (ie religious sites), and I do not have the time at the moment to conduct a more thorough investigation into this issue.

That being said, my understanding is that the implementation of these institutions has not been handled very well; pimps still abound in such legal brothels and the working conditions are not noticeably different from their illegal counterparts.

So on the whole I'd say that if we were to legalize it (and I feel that there is absolutely no philosophical reason why it shouldn't be legalized, only practical/historical ones) that it should be initially legalized only in very controlled, state-run and state-sanctioned centers in order to ensure that everything is run above board and that the prostitutes, regardless of gender, do not get abused (whether physically, emotionally, or financially).

I'd appreciate further reading on this though if anyone has any good sources they would like to share.

i agree pretty strongly

i don't understand why there would still be pimps when prostitution is legal, but uncle sam's idea seems great given that there apparently are

stupid shit dont bother opening

plus it has the lady gaga seal of approval (T)(M)()

 

[Cresselia~~]

I think it depends on how the prostitution is run.
For example, some countries only allow "self employed" prostitutes, as in, the prostitute is her own boss, and there are no anyone else who work with her.
This prevents people from making a big company with lots of slaves.

I think this type should be made legal.

 

[Coronis]

Yeah it should be legal. Here it is legal and regulated and it works fine, I haven't actually heard of any problems with it at all. Its a great way to make money for the men and women who want to do it.

 

[v]

the government should have a Bureau of Sins that manages and distributes legal drugs, sex, and rock n roll


edit us govt i guess, but the un having one would be pretty swell

 

[boo836]

the government should have a Bureau of Sins that manages and distributes legal drugs, sex, and rock n roll


edit us govt i guess, but the un having one would be pretty swell

>thinking the UN is capable of enforcing anything, let alone managing a major global industry

 

[Surgo]

Literally nowhere that it has been legalized has had it "work fine". Claiming otherwise is sticking your head in the sand. It has not made a dent in sex trafficking in any jurisdiction that has legalized it. As far as I am aware the only thing that has done so is, at the same time, decriminalizing the selling of sex while criminalizing the purchase of it.

 

[DM]

Arguments against legalization:

1. Prostitution is responsible for violence against women and sex trafficking
3. We have to criminalize prostitution to fight sex trafficking (yes I know this is basically the same as argument #1, but even procon.org just rehashes points #1 and #2 repeatedly so I honestly had a hard time coming up with a third point)

These are actually reasons for removing the illegality, especially when it comes to violence against women. How is an abused prostitute supposed to get the help she needs/deserves if her very status as a prostitute is enough to get her arrested by the same police she would entreat for assistance? The same goes for drug addicts. We need to stop criminalizing statuses and instead help these people.

 

[Aldaron]

Literally nowhere that it has been legalized has had it "work fine". Claiming otherwise is sticking your head in the sand. It has not made a dent in sex trafficking in any jurisdiction that has legalized it. As far as I am aware the only thing that has done so is, at the same time, decriminalizing the selling of sex while criminalizing the purchase of it.

These are actually reasons for removing the illegality, especially when it comes to violence against women. How is an abused prostitute supposed to get the help she needs/deserves if her very status as a prostitute is enough to get her arrested by the same police she would entreat for assistance? The same goes for drug addicts. We need to stop criminalizing statuses and instead help these people.

So both these posts are pretty strongly in opposition

I know relatively little about the subject at hand so can both of you dive a little deeper to explain more?

By that I mean sources and stuff, just cause I'm legitimately curious

 

[DM]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/08/15/why-it-s-time-to-legalize-prostitution.html

That's a quick article, sure, but the underlying research is cited and included. So, right away, Surgo's first sentence is incorrect. Focus on this paragraph specifically:

As with the drug trade, much of the violence associated with sex work is exacerbated by its illegality. Violent people are more likely to prey on sex workers, confident that they won’t be reported to police. This leaves workers dependent on pimps and madams for protection, which often leads to more violence. And then there’s abuse from police. In Ireland, where prostitution is still criminalized, one study estimates that 30 percent of the abuse that sex workers report comes from police. Some estimate that police actually abuse American sex workers more often than clients do.
​

I can't get too in-depth because I have to go to work, but from my readings and studies as a Criminal Justice major, the arguments against prohibition strongly outweigh those against.

 

[brightobject]

If as DM said, many of the negative aspects of prostitution are exacerbated by their illegality, shouldn't we consider how those who are actually controlling and profiting from said illegalities (pimps, bosses, traffickers) would react to legalisation?

Prostitution rings, as well as the gangs and pimps that control them, are usually deeply entrenched within a city's criminal networks (successful ones at least), and I can't imagine them wanting to suddenly 'go legal' in the face of legalization. Perhaps they wouldn't want to get taxed or regulated, or as people probably involved in a host of other still-illegal activities, would want as little to do with the feds as possible/already have local law enforcement in the palms of their hands. And wouldn't they attempt to discourage any prostitutes/establishments practicing prostitution legally by perpetuating violence and crime against such establishments and their patrons? Maybe that's not how it works at all, but that's what came to mind.

Just one more practical problem with legalisation. Yeah, a lot of legal, white-collar-friendly brothels or something or other would open up, but in the end that might just make the seedy underbelly of prostitution (human trafficking, etc etc) get even uglier.

 

[DM]

Yeah, that MAY be a valid point. The problem is that the USA is too chickenshit to find out the answer to the question. Basically, our legislators would much rather deal (quite ineffectively, I might add) with the monster we know, rather than the monster we don't (but which, according to any reasonable logic, would be much less malevolent).

 

[tehy]

i think our legislators just think prostitution is morally wrong ? basically the same reason drugs are still so very illegal

edit:

well, yes, i didn't say that the reason made sense as such (and i don't think it does!!). I just think that's their reason

 

[DM]

So, a terrible reason that has absolutely no merit and is actually doing more harm than good? 100% correct.

 

[Warped Worlds]

Who wants to get a prostitute? All their mommy pockets stink from the ph imbalances from all the guys who get one up with them.

 

[Surgo]

Nothing I said actually conflicts with anything that DM said, and I think we're in violent agreement in most places. I was talking about legalizing the sale while keeping criminal the buying, which makes being a sex worker not illegal so they can actually get help etc etc. Countries that work this way: Sweden, Norway, Iceland.

I think I may have overstated my case against decriminalization though. It's true that it has reduced human trafficking, but not by much. Germany only managed to reduce their human trafficking problem (via DM's link) by a paltry 10%! Hard to call that much of a success. I can't seem to find numbers from before 1998 for Sweden so I can't find a percentage difference there. The current estimates are 400-600 humans annually so if anyone can find the numbers before 1998 we can see what percentage reduction that model had.

 

[VanGru]

This is a no-brainer, ofcourse legalize it. Prostitution is as old as mankind itself, you cannot crack down on it, you can however tax it and get some kind of controll on it, also why shouldn't consenting adults be able to pay for sex? Legal prostitution also deals with the problem of human-trafficking.

 

[BenTheDemon]

This sums it up extremely well.