Data ASB Feedback & Game Issues Thread - Mk III

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Dogfish44

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My reading still holds - especially when you factor in that it is trying to force a cooldown on first action of the *next round*. That, to me, implies that if you're not in during that round then you don't suffer the penalty. Moreover, that wording is flawed (We already have counter-rulings from Deck that said that your own attacks, like U-Turn and Volt Switch have their switch effects nullified), which would explain the modified wording. We can also use that ruling mentioned prior to demonstrate at very least intent that if you were able to switch, you would evade cooldown.

Reference said:
16:48:39 PM ~ <Destiny_Warrior> if a pokemon has NOT u-turned/vswitched
16:48:44 PM ~ <Destiny_Warrior> and it uses an a3 combo
16:48:53 PM ~ <Destiny_Warrior> can it initiate a switch phase next round?
16:48:56 PM ~ <Destiny_Warrior> (aka it is in cooldown)
16:49:10 PM ~ <~Deck_Knight> The cooldown must occur before it can switch
16:48:59 PM ~ <~Deck_Knight> No.
16:49:07 PM ~ <Destiny_Warrior> tanks deck
16:49:10 PM ~ <+dogfish44> And if it has U-Turned?
16:49:22 PM ~ <~Deck_Knight> U-turn's switch effect fails.
 

Its_A_Random

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Why cannot using combinations be a viable counterplay to Roar?

I mean take advantage of a Roar to maximise damage and then suffer from cooldown later.

Seriously.
 
~Snip~
@Edit: Or is it that they get forced out via Roar they need to still cooldown on the turn they come back in later?
If it's that then I would go with the "No they don't" version. Cooldown isn't "remembered" or a "lasting" penalty across switches, or at least IMO it shouldn't be.
It's meant to be like cooldown after a hyper beam and to my knowledge that cooldown doesn't last through a roar.
 
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So, how does Illusion actually work with regards to declaring items? I've been asking around a bit but have gotten no luck really.
The one person who answered me felt the items could not be illusioned but wasn't sure how it really worked when I went into my examples (below) so I guess I'll talk about it here:

It seems to me for it to work as one would expect, the item should be able to be "illusioned" as well (if desired), otherwise it leads to a number of issues:
1) It makes it obvious when certain pokemon are copied but given the wrong item (a Rare Candy on an Everstone pokemon being the obvious example).
This is entirely a fault of the ASB system of declaring item's and not a limitation of Illusion in-game ability. Furthermore there isn't really any meaningful reason why some pokemon who share common item choices with the illusion pokemon are ok to copy while ones who do not are not.

2) It leads to either inconsistency or again obvious fakes when switching in as an already equipped pokemon.
Say you've already got a Squirtle with a Mystical Water on the bench. You "switch Squirtle back in" but in reality you switch in your Illusion mon. Either A) you need to say you're swapping Squirtle back in and declaring your item for your illusion mon (which would be ridiculous), you don't get to declare an item and cannot equip one (ridiculous), or you don't declare the item but do get to equip your choice, which means in this case your Illusion mon's item is successfully hidden, when it couldn't be before (also ridiculous).

I guess I'll stop there for the moment rather than ramble on further. It's not like I can't see how illusioned items could be used to advantage (pretending to have a specific defensive item or concealing a unique offensive item) but it seems less an issue (to me anyway) than the problems I listed above with not-illusioning the item. Could anyone please provide some information on how this all really works?
 
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Frosty

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How it is: NDA Description mentions that only the pokemon can feign appearance. On the PM you inform that Pokemon X is actually pokemon Y. It doesn't extend that possibility to the held items. Considering that and the 3 years of precedents, it is safe to say that you will always declare the true item (so it isn't affected by Illusion).

BUT

Ingame isn't like this and I don't see problems mechanic-wise in letting the true item be said on PM and the "false" (the one held by the mon you are pretending it to be) item on the post. It may have balance issues (especially regarding Aurumoth), so I'd like to hear people's input about it. Doing so does solve the problem of having to equip a suboptimal item on either to illusion pokemon or the illusioned pokemon to preserve the illusion (and the problem of having to discreetly giving an item when you send out Zoroark/Aurumoth pretending to be a mon that already was equipped an item). But it increases the power of Zoroark/Aurumoth, as ASB's choose-item-on-sendout special mechanic makes hidden items that much better.


Also:

BTW If no one objects to Dawn Stone change I will end up fiating it eventually. So please do say something if you don't like that.
Last Call. If nobody objects to Dawn Stone increasing the highest true base stat (more than one if tie) instead of +atk for females and +spa for males in the next 24h or so, I will fiat that change.
 
Thanks for clearing that up Frosty, I appreciate you taking the time to do it.

Well I suppose it goes without saying that I would be very much in favor of seeing Illusion changed to include the item unless someone can think of some truely game breaking situation regarding hiding the item.
Naturally it does boost the power of Zoroark/Aurumoth (especially compared to how it currently works) but I don't think it's a huge increase if people keep it in mind as a possibility. Just my 2 cents.
 
honestly can we just change it so that you cant be forced to switch under cooldown? its dumb
Forreal. Rule the current case however you'd like/need, but I think in the future going with this is the best option.

For starters, it makes the interaction between Roar/etc vs. cooldown the same as the interaction between U-turn/etc vs. cooldown. To me it's always been dumb that there was inconsistency here (see above). Having the mechanic interaction work the same is nice from a game design perspective, because it's easier to learn and remember.

Secondly, Roar and Whirlwind are basically unblockable this generation. If you don't want to have a random Pokemon sent in, atm I think your only options are have Suction Cups (/Soundproof), use Ingrain, or use a U-turn clone after the phazing move has happened (I think this is a thing?). Giving the opponent the ability to effectively block these moves (at a cost, ie having to cooldown a1 next round) is also nice, and adds depth to the game. I guess you could argue it "makes combinations stronger," except it doesn't because you still have to cooldown which is plenty punishing.

Ultimately I don't really care, this isn't something that should come up much anyways. Both switch-forcers and combinations are really only things you should use when ordering second. I just think the other options are either broken (being phazed having no cooldown) or annoying/ugly/inconsistent (being phazed having cooldown). But hey



EDIT: Regarding Illusion -- Illusion is rly strong already. I think also giving it the ability to have a Pokemon hold whatever they want without the opponent being able to see is very damaging. Yes the alternative (how things currently are) is slightly clunky, but is so much more balanced that it's almost definitely worth it.
 
EDIT: Regarding Illusion -- Illusion is rly strong already. I think also giving it the ability to have a Pokemon hold whatever they want without the opponent being able to see is very damaging. Yes the alternative (how things currently are) is slightly clunky, but is so much more balanced that it's almost definitely worth it.
What item are you considering them holding that would be very damaging? You already know what their pool of items could be (they should have it listed on their profile) and you know logically what items they would naturally want to run on the illusion pokemon. It seems very unlikely to me that they would have an item that A) they want to run on the Illusion pokemon that is also B) not what they would normally want to run but also back breaking for them to have. I mean the standard Rare Candy/Expert Belt would naturally be assumed, so the off the wall stuff would be Red Card or Rage Candy Bar or a resist Berry or something... Do you feel items like that would be so very "damaging"/"unbalanced" if they were unknown?
 
Yes, that is what I'm saying.

This is further compounded by the fact that you really don't know for sure if you're even facing an Illusion Pokemon.

Example: I already don't want to order first against Togekiss, when it could either be Togekiss @ Scope Lens or Aurumoth @ Scope Lens. I definitely don't want to order first against Togekiss, when it could be Togekiss @ Scope Lens or Aurumoth @ Rare Candy/Charti Berry/literally anything.
 

Mowtom

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Can we please settle the cool down thing? My DYAE match is kinda stopped until there's an answer.
 

Its_A_Random

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Can we please settle the cool down thing? My DYAE match is kinda stopped until there's an answer.
I am just going to draw a line here and declare that the switch will go through for Roar and that Cooldown be treated in the same vein as Freeze, Paralysis, etc. in that the mon will have to cool down the first action it comes back out. This is for balance-related reasons.

Mods were having an emergency vote in private on this but zarator appears to be nowhere and the majority of us who voted went for this ruling anyway. Plus that match needs to get going so we cannot wait on him anymore.

As for Roar not forcing a switch, that is up for debate and would be considered a policy change, not a clarification (so it needs to go through the usual protocol for that to happen so someone might need to open a discussion on that).
 
When on earth did we apparently decide that 2 days =/= 48 hours and the like. ASB covers that many different timezones that any reference to days is laughable. Even if my opponent posts at 4am Monday my time that gives me all day Monday and all day Tuesday to respond before it's 4am Wednesday and I'm over DQ. 2 days is 48 hours. 3 days is 72 hours. So on and so forth. Just post within your DQ time don't make excuses. This game is pedantic enough jeez.
 

Frosty

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Am I the only one that finds extremely sad that so many of our latest matches are decided on DQ or typos and pedantry? We have lives outside of here. People seem to forget that.

And before anyone say "LoA". I am talking about everyday, not the occasional trip I do to the bahamas.

Yes I agree that a day-based DQ is weird as weird can get. But, the other option is just sad.
 

ZhengTann

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Or people could:

a) Be patient and wait a few more days after DQ;
b) Simply ask / enforce longer DQ periods (agree on a 5-day instead of the standard 3-day before the match)

Yes I know being late will be inexcusable sooner or later but being so impatient about DQ rubs in all kinds of negative emotions too

sorry if this post offers no constructive feedback, please ignore/delete if applies
 
Or people could just post within DQ? 3 days is a long time to find 15 minutes to post orders in a match. I'm not talking about refereeing, just participants in a match. You agree to a match/sign up to a tournament/challenge a gym/whatever knowing full well what the DQ interval is. If you cannot post in a timely manor for that match then don't commit to it. Simple. There is little else more frustrating than a timely referee/participant constantly waiting on tardy player/s to post. And don't try and tell me its hard to find time to post decent orders, Elevator Music wins everything and barely ever passes DQ.

Don't even get me started on "I've been really busy in the last two days so don't DQ me LoAs" by the way. If you didn't know of something to post in advance it's not a LoA it's just you being tardy.

I may be in the minority on this issue but jesus matches here take long enough when timely.
 
I agree with deadfox. Constant Johning of players make it difficult for others, as the focus in the battle is lost by the time they receive an order from the johning player.

When this happens for a valid reason, it is okay. But some players make it a habit to delay their orders till they go past DQ to post them. *smh*

I have requested players to post when they were within DQ (as a ref) and was shooed off. Incidentally, that player went over DQ in that battle before posting the orders. The point to note is that, this is despite the ref informing of how much time is left before DQ to the player in IRC, and the battle in question was a tournament battle.

Idk, I feel people take DQ for granted. If player A is getting x amount of time for orders, player B has to manage the orders within that time too. Managing time is an important part of a competition, and should be taken into account.
 
Mods were having an emergency vote in private on this but zarator appears to be nowhere and the majority of us who voted went for this ruling anyway. Plus that match needs to get going so we cannot wait on him anymore.
Just chiming in to say that I DID read the post. I simply didn't form a strong enough opinion about it to vote either way, so I simply let others decide. Sorry about it.
 

Its_A_Random

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Or people could:

a) Be patient and wait a few more days after DQ;
b) Simply ask / enforce longer DQ periods (agree on a 5-day instead of the standard 3-day before the match)
It is this sort of attitude as to why Tournaments like ASBuddies and LLAMA go overtime every single round though (And they take long enough as it is). At the end of the day there is not much we can do about it other than be Japanese School strict but look what happened that last time someone was DQed after going over by a minute (No surprises as to what I am referring to)... -.-'

Yeah people do have lives and I understand that. The issue is that inactivity / tardiness tends to have a negative impact on tournaments (People growing impatient constantly waiting, declining interest, etc) and you should know how frustrated I get when matches move at a snail's pace when I do not actively enforce DQ until a week before one day deadlines in LLAMA... :|

The active enforcement in DQ and the really short deadlines is why the first ASB Tournament was so successful in the first place.

---

And zarator that is fine. Just be more proactive in saying you do not have and opinion if you do not have one though, okay? :)
 

ZhengTann

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Well, Frosty mentioned me in his Council app post so I figure I might as well do this before I step down. I dunno how many more times I have left haha

Meditate: Holy molly this list is going to be long. Agree with Dogfish - appreciate it if someone (outside of Council even!) could compile a list and then propose it to be appended to Meditate's DAT description. In the meantime I'll move this to Voting in (less than) 24 hours to see if Council wants to make that "append a list" option or the "return it to vanilla" option.

Stall: I read two options presented: a) -8 Priority, and b) last within priority bracket a la Full Incense. IAR made a point that Stall can be treated as automatically -8 - or any large arbitrary negative - priority to prevent confusion regarding Quick Guard and Substitution. I guess discussion has been exhausted to the point nobody brings it up anymore, so if we really wanna be bureaucratic I can move to Voting and quantify this.

Fling: Give Fling a 0, 1 or 2 EN cost if the user has no item, as IAR said? Since you'd spend a minimum of 2.5 EN flinging scarves and berries and stuff. It'll probably move to Voting. Or get a fiat.

Illusion mons and equipping: I liked EM's two post. Unless there are significant balance issues regarding the current clunky mechanic, in which case please bring them up.

Dawn Stone: Fiated.

Combo with phazes: Fiated.
 

ZhengTann

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This is in a separate post because I need it to gauge some public response.

Spider Web: Rain put this up, he made his point. As much as I personally dislike with it and as much tempted as I am over the fact that he seems to be the only one who cares, I am here to propose a solution to his question, drawn from inspirations from Mean Look.
Proposed new Spider Web DAT description said:
The user spins and sets up a web in its opponent's general vicinity, trapping them. The target cannot switch out during a Switch Phase for six (6) actions. If combined with Sticky Web or Electroweb, the Speed drop of the whole combo is increased to two (2) stages. If combined with String Shot, the target's Speed will fall four (4) stages. A Pokemon affected by any combo involving Spider Web will be unable to use moves that make contact for six (6) actions, though they are free to attempt to cut the web with an attack. Opposing Bug-type Pokemon are stuck in the web for only three (3) actions. Fire-type attacks will burn down the webbing.
So, please like if you think this warrants a Discussion. If Council members (assuming I am still in Council) decides to skip it and go straight to Voting, then I'm okay too.
 

Dogfish44

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Proposal to change Meditate entirely;

New Meditate said:
The Pokemon sits on the ground and meditates. When the meditation is complete, the Pokemon's outline glows white, and its Attack is raised by one (1) stage. Meditate can be combined with ki-based attacks (Aura Sphere, Focus Blast, Force Palm), multiplying the BAP of the move by 1.5 and increasing the Effect Chance of the combination to 100%.
As much as I'd love to give Meditate like billions of flavour effects, I feel this is the easiest way to go about things.

Spider Web, I like the update, although I'd like for the contact-block to also work w/o using a combo. I'd also like to define 'what' can cut through the webs (Maybe anything boosted by Razor Fang or Razor Claw?)

Combos will probably want a council discussion, Illusion probably SHOULD have a discussion, Stall wants a discussion, and the above two (Medi, Spider) probably want discussion threads as well.
 
With regards to Spider Web, I agree with dogfish in that, to me, Spider Web should prevent contact attacks regardless of whether or not it is used in a combo. And for what it's worth, I don't see why illusion is even being considered to change, aside from handing out needless buffs to already strong Pokemon.
 
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