CAP 21 - Part 1 - Concept Submissions

[ginganinja]

I don't really see a way for this concept to be successful without locking us into a particular combination of typing + ability. Offensive hazard teams are just going to build offensive pressure in such a way that makes it difficult for the enemy team to actually find the time to spin, while stall teams know how to handle defog and stuff since its hardly a new strategy. I also dislike just how binary the CAP would prolly end up being. In a metagame where this CAP is popular, paradoxically, it would never see use, specifically because no-one would use hazards.

You want this thing to:

-Be immune to spikes either resistant or neutral to SR
-Prevent the set up of entry hazards and remove them reliably across the length of the match
-Have such a large degree of offensive presence so that offensive teams couldn't just pressure this CAP to not find the time to spin.
-Have some other offensive and/or defensive role
-Defeat all entry hazard setters commonly seen in OU
-Handle common counters to entry removal, such as Bisharp discouraging Defog
-Not have this pokemon be over centralising.
-Still retain various creative options (ie no pigeonholing) during the process

I guess the biggest issue I have with this is that there is 0 counterplay. You just...don't stop this pokemon from doing its job. That to me, doesn't sound like a particularly healthy pokemon, even though it would be nice having a metagame with a decrease in the usage of spikes.

 

[Clone]

Disclaimer: when I say spin, Defog can be used instead. Basically either or.

I don't really see a way for this concept to be successful without locking us into a particular combination of typing + ability. Offensive hazard teams are just going to build offensive pressure in such a way that makes it difficult for the enemy team to actually find the time to spin, while stall teams know how to handle defog and stuff since its hardly a new strategy. I also dislike just how binary the CAP would prolly end up being. In a metagame where this CAP is popular, paradoxically, it would never see use, specifically because no-one would use hazards.

Well... yes and no. It is true that offense can keep up enough offensive pressure to prevent a spin, and that stall can spinblock or handle Defog, but right now OU lacks a spinner defogger that can handle both. When I say 'do this throughout the match' I don't mean repeatedly come in against offense and spin/Defog without giving a care in the world, since normally you only need to spin one time to remove the suicide leads rocks. I more meant along the lines of it staying healthy against teams that do not rely on pure offensive pressure to keep hazards up. It would be something that can spin once against offense and fulfill its role, but be effective in the long term against teams that rely on hazards and a using them to outlast opponents.

Paradoxically speaking, yes, it would be like that, but is don't see that happening in reality because we would be caught in a never ending cycle of

hazards - use this mon to deal with hazards - don't use hazards cuz of this mon - don't use this mon cuz no hazards - use hazards cuz no one uses this mon - repeat.

You want this thing to:

-Be immune to spikes either resistant or neutral to SR

Ideally, yes, since dying to hazards before you can remove them always sucks

-Prevent the set up of entry hazards and remove them reliably across the length of the match

Not prevent, just be able to remove them when given a free turn and do so more than once, except against offense, in which it would only need to do so once.

-Have such a large degree of offensive presence so that offensive teams couldn't just pressure this CAP to not find the time to spin.

Not necessarily. It could also be defensive in nature and be able to eat a hit while spinning. Either or could work, though the latter seems more appealing to me personally.

-Have some other offensive and/or defensive role

By this I mean that it should not just be a mon that clicks rapid spin/Defog then switch out. It could just mean that its able to check x mon in x situation or something. For example, on top of being a rapid spinner, defensive Starmie is an excellent check to Keldeo.

-Defeat all entry hazard setters commonly seen in OU

Yes, because if they can just lay hazard on you, you stalemate, which is unideal. 'All' could probably be changed to 'most', though. Beating all of Garchomp, Hippowdon, Heatran, Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Azelf, mew, and Tyranitar is virtually impossible.

Just to give an example of what it could be, it could be a fairy type that has access to ice and fire type coverage. The threat of having those moves could deter the mons from staying in, but you may not necessarily always win since you may lack the needed coverage to defeat a certain stealth rock/spikes setter. That's just one of the ideas that's floating through my head atm

-Handle common counters to entry removal, such as Bisharp discouraging Defog

Yes, because what is the point of having a mon if its just blocked/taken advantage of?

-Not have this pokemon be over centralising.

Yes, absolutely.

-Still retain various creative options (ie no pigeonholing) during the process

I'm just saying that I can think of various different ways of going about this process.

I guess the biggest issue I have with this is that there is 0 counterplay. You just...don't stop this pokemon from doing its job. That to me, doesn't sound like a particularly healthy pokemon, even though it would be nice having a metagame with a decrease in the usage of spikes.

While this is true in that this mon /might/ (I'm saying might because a perfect hazard remover that excels in all situations seems OP to me) not have counter play in removing hazards, itll have counter play in situations that hazards do not play a part in. Say it can check x mon in most scenarios, but it is unable to stand up to common partners of that mon or something.

This is entirely my opinion but I don't find hazards particularly healthy for the tier myself. I understand why they're a necessary evil but sometimes they do more harm than good, and having a way to reliably remove them in a majority of situations would, in my eyes, be beneficial for the tier as a whole.

 

[ginganinja]

While this is true in that this mon /might/ (I'm saying might because a perfect hazard remover that excels in all situations seems OP to me) not have counter play in removing hazards, itll have counter play in situations that hazards do not play a part in.

I think you are missing the point. You want to create a pokemon that you can 100% not stop from doing its job. There is no tactic you can try, no viable defence, you just lose your hazards, period. Like, its just creates this dynamic of a pokemon that is so good that you just have to have it on your team, because not having it is just a flat disadvantage....and you claim that you don't want this pokemon to be centralising. I just don't know how you can go through my checklist of all the things this pokemon needs to do to be successful and think, "yep, that won't be over centralising at all".

EDIT

I'm also unsure this is happening for the correct reasons. The CAP Moderation team has been pretty vocal about not "updating" prior CAPs, which is exactly what this is since Fidgit does (or did), the exact same thing as you want us to do with this CAP. The only thing Fidgit doesn't do is "spin reliably against Mega Sab". Since the majority of your initial post actually dealt with the CAP metagame rather than the OU one, I cannot really shake the feeling that you personally just want us to make a perfect hazard remover for the CAP metagame, and just want to dress it up as something else :/. Its prolly not how it really us, but its certainly how it looks from here.

 

[AD Mega-Shedinja]

Hey look, its Mega Charizard!

O.k but seriously this concept is prolly ok, tho it might need a little more refinement since bluffing X can be something pretty much every pokemon in the meta can do. Look at our most recent CAP which can bluff Water Veil in order to discourage the opponent from burning it. Look at like every suspect ever with a decent movepool that could bluff having move X to prevent you feeling secure in bringing in X mon.

So I'd certainly disagree with your assessment that "deception" doesn't exist in the OU metagame.

While that is true, I meant as in that there aren't particular strategies that revolve around bluffing. You might decide suddenly in the middle of a match to try and bluff a choice item if so far you've only needed to use one attack, but you rarely come into a battle thinking that that is what you'll do.

But yes, I'll probably have to reword the bit about deception in OU.

 

[OverlordDerp]

Name: Checkmate Positioning

General Description: This will be a Pokemon with the ability to either offensively or defensively bolster a teammate's threat level, such that said teammate's checks are left at a disadvantage.

Justification: As many people would claim, a very substantial portion of the Gen VI metagame relies on matchups and how they are used to one's advantage. This often means that some teams intrinsically fall apart against others, and some simply stonewall others by virtue of matchup. This is mainly eased by employing the use of entry hazards, momentum grabbing and prediction, but such maneuvers still succumb to the fact that the opponent has the exact same tools at hand most of the time, and can simply 'out-skill' you by keeping in pace with you. Some clever sets make use of lure moves, but that in itself poses a problem - a lure automatically means some form of compromise on the user's part, be it coverage or offensive/defensive presence.

What I would like to explore with this CAP concept are the processes of matchup management and compromise mitigation. That is, how would a player employ a Pokemon made for the purpose of easing the burden of matchup? How does this create strategic liberties for a team to take advantage of? How does one make a Pokemon that turns 'playing with the cards stacked against you' into a strategic advantage? Furthermore, this concept analysis extends beyond just the battle scene, and finds importance in the teambuilding mindset - how do we deal with matchup problems a team may face, and how do we take a more proactive approach to such problems?

Questions To Be Answered:
- How do we define the scenario where a check or counter can no longer perform its role against its intended targets, leaving the opponent in a 'checkmate position'?
- What are the forms of matchup management currently at our disposal?
- How do we come to the decisions of employing lures, and how do we make up for the compromise such sets force us to take?
- As stated before, how does one make a Pokemon that turns 'playing from behind' into a strategic advantage? How do we effectively punish an opponent for maintaining momentum and not suspecting a trap?
- Can there be a Pokemon with the ability to PROACTIVELY make a teammate harder to switch into, rather than just a passive method like hazards or a prediction-reliant method like momentum-grabbing moves or double switching?
- Is it possible to do this without one-dimensional answers like QuickPass?

Explanation: A large concern that comes with an idea like this is that many of the problems above can be solved with something like Baton Pass. However, its main users, Smeargle, Scolipede and Espeon, are incredibly one-dimensional in their role, whether it's coughing up boosts or sweeping with said boosts. It's also a very restrictive archetype, only allowing sweepers that can make maximum usage of the stats proferred upon them (and even then, they can be beaten), and more importantly, only work with one-dimensional setup roles that are only useful for their singular purpose on a team, and then promptly dying (read: Screens/Memento users and setting up big boosts like Shell Smash/Geomancy/Speed Boosts). What I want to explore is the concept of a fleshed-out Pokemon that is capable of performing functions outside of just aiding a teammate, but when needed, can provide help in a manner that takes advantage of disadvantageous matchups - WITHOUT relying on a fat bundle of overwhelming boosts or solely passive impact like entry hazards. What we need to analyze and determine is exactly how this is accomplished, and what strengths and weaknesses each method brings to the table.

 

[Empress]

Name: Checkmate Positioning

General Description: This will be a Pokemon with the ability to either offensively or defensively bolster a teammate's threat level, such that said teammate's checks are left at a disadvantage.

Justification: As many people would claim, a very substantial portion of the Gen VI metagame relies on matchups and how they are used to one's advantage. This often means that some teams intrinsically fall apart against others, and some simply stonewall others by virtue of matchup. This is mainly eased by employing the use of entry hazards, momentum grabbing and prediction, but such maneuvers still succumb to the fact that the opponent has the exact same tools at hand most of the time, and can simply 'out-skill' you by keeping in pace with you. Some clever sets make use of lure moves, but that in itself poses a problem - a lure automatically means some form of compromise on the user's part, be it coverage or offensive/defensive presence.

What I would like to explore with this CAP concept are the processes of matchup management and compromise mitigation. That is, how would a player employ a Pokemon made for the purpose of easing the burden of matchup, and how does this create strategic liberties for a team to take advantage of? Furthermore, this concept analysis extends beyond just the battle scene, and finds importance in the teambuilding mindset - how do we deal with matchup problems a team may face, and how do we take a more proactive approach to such problems?

Questions To Be Answered:
- How do we define the scenario where a check or counter can no longer perform its role against its intended targets, leaving the opponent in a 'checkmate position'?
- What are the forms of matchup management currently at our disposal?
- How do we come to the decisions of employing lures, and how do we make up for the compromise such sets force us to take?
- Can there be a Pokemon with the ability to PROACTIVELY make a teammate harder to switch into, rather than just a passive method like hazards or a prediction-reliant method like momentum-grabbing moves or double switching?
- Is it possible to do this without one-dimensional answers like QuickPass?

Explanation: A large concern that comes with an idea like this is that many of the problems above can be solved with something like Baton Pass. However, its main users, Smeargle, Scolipede and Espeon, are incredibly one-dimensional in their role, whether it's coughing up boosts or sweeping with said boosts. It's also a very restrictive archetype, only allowing sweepers that can make maximum usage of the stats proferred upon them (and even then, they can be beaten), and more importantly, only work with one-dimensional setup roles that are only useful for their singular purpose on a team, and then promptly dying (read: Screens/Memento users and setting up big boosts like Shell Smash/Geomancy/Speed Boosts). What I want to explore is the concept of a fleshed-out Pokemon that is capable of performing functions outside of just aiding a teammate, but when needed, can provide help in a manner that takes advantage of disadvantageous matchups - WITHOUT relying on a fat bundle of overwhelming boosts or solely passive impact like entry hazards. What we need to analyze and determine is exactly how this is accomplished, and what strengths and weaknesses each method brings to the table.

I don't like it for two reasons.

1. Absolutely, positively no more "teammate synergy"-esque concepts. A significant portion of your description describes this mon helping a teammate, or at least that's the vibe I'm getting. We tried those with Volkraken and Plasmanta, and I think you know how those two projects went.
2. As was brought up in the Lando and Aegislash suspects, the OU metagame is inherently matchup reliant thanks to the lack of overly centralizing threats (we ban them if they're overcentralizing) and, in turn, the sheer amount of threats that one has to prepare for. The most obvious way to eliminate the matchup problem is to create an overcentralizing threat, and this would definitely not make for a healthy project. If you have other ideas of how such as Pokemon can eliminate the matchup problem without being overcentralizing, please describe what you have in mind, as I do not believe we should intentionally be making something that's borderline broken.

 

[Alfalfa]

I don't like it for two reasons.

1. Absolutely, positively no more "teammate synergy"-esque concepts. A significant portion of your description describes this mon helping a teammate, or at least that's the vibe I'm getting. We tried those with Volkraken and Plasmanta, and I think you know how those two projects went.
2. As was brought up in the Lando and Aegislash suspects, the OU metagame is inherently matchup reliant thanks to the lack of overly centralizing threats (we ban them if they're overcentralizing) and, in turn, the sheer amount of threats that one has to prepare for. The most obvious way to eliminate the matchup problem is to create an overcentralizing threat, and this would definitely not make for a healthy project. If you have other ideas of how such as Pokemon can eliminate the matchup problem without being overcentralizing, please describe what you have in mind, as I do not believe we should intentionally be making something that's borderline broken.

If we truly wanted to eliminate the matchup problem, we would have to look at it from the counter-matchup and counter-threat based perspective. The easiest way to account for a plethora of the offensive threats is to create an all-purpose wall with enough bulk to blanket check a good portion of the metagame, but without the intense offensive pressure or just overall strain it exerts on the metagame that Aegislash did. I do not necessarily think this is impossible, for we have some good models to look at in Chansey and Cresselia to understand how we would want to create this threat without limiting it into either intense passivity or too much offensive capability.

By now, you should already see the issue with this concept: it is too limited. We could argue that we are learning how an offensive metagame would react to defensive centralization, but we are already set in stone towards what the Pokemon's inclination is going to be. Thus, we are not likely to learn much from such a concept.

 

[AOPSUser]

Name: What STAB?

General Description: A Pokemon whose coverage options are just as important as, if not much more important than, its STAB.

Justification: Coverage is a very important part of many offensive Pokemon, but typically the main goal of coverage is to cover the resists of their main STAB(s). In Gen IV Electivire was considered one of the most overrated Pokemon in OU because though it had amazing super-effective coverage, its moves were so weak it couldn't do much with them. Greninja is probably the other extreme, by getting STAB on everything its coverage made it broken. EVire, though, left quite a bit of undiscovered potential, and with better moves and better stats we could probably engineer EVire 2.0, OU Version.

Questions to be answered:
- If its STAB is going to be relatively unimportant, how is the typing to be determined?
- How do we balance its power?
- How important is supereffective coverage in the OU metagame versus neutral coverage?
- Though this concept lends itself to be a wallbreaker, can we perhaps create another role that also uses amazing coverage (without being broken of course)?

Explanation: With this concept, I'm not saying we just slap Normal typing on it and give it every move in existence. In fact, that's probably a bad idea and would probably create another Exploud or Porygon-Z, especially considering how good Normal's neutral coverage is (compared to, say, Electric). Rather, the Pokemon's typing would still be important, not just defensively but also as an offensive complement to its other coverage. For example, if we made it Poison-type, it could use Poison Jab alongside Close Combat, which would help take out any Steel-types, and Crabhammer/Wood Hammer, for Ground-types. In this same example, we should therefore not give the Pokemon Gunk Shot, as that would give it a "main" move to spam, which defeats the purpose of this concept. I'm not totally opposed to Protean but I feel like that has already been explored and would deprive the CAP of any other interesting abilities (for example, we could have it take after Hitmonchan with the Iron Fist-boosted elemental punches as its main moves).

 

[Cretacerus]

Name: hazard control

General Description: a Pokémon that is able to not only prevent the setup of entry hazards, but is also able to remove them reliably throughout the match

Justification: positive effect on the metagame — right now entry hazards are staples on every competitive team, and they are often easy to keep up either through offensive pressure or spin locking.

Questions To Be Answered: how will we make it so that this mon isn't over centralizing?
How do we make this mon fit well into the OU metagame?
How do we justify the usage of this mon over another rapid spinner?
How do we ensure that this mon is able to reliably perform its role consistently in the majority of matchups?
Do we focus on its offensive or defensive capabilities in regard to how it functions?

Explanation: many people have complained about hazards being over centralizing in every generation since their inception (bar like GSC), so having a mon that is able to remove them without fear from common ways of preventing removal (such as spinblocking or defiant) would benefit the metagame greatly, at least in my opinion. Ideally this mon would be immune to spikes and neutral or resistant to stealth Rock, such as a levitating mon.

Right now, OU lacks reliable ways of removing hazards. While we do have good spinners in Excadrill and Starmie, and defoggers such as lati@s and Zapdos, they all suffer from problems that affect how well they are able to remove hazards. Excadrill suffers from a poor speed tier outside of sand, and it loses to common stealth rock and spikes setters such as Lando t, Hippowdon, bulky chomp, Skarmory, and Ferrothorn, depending on if its LO or not. Starmie has a good speed tier, but offensive variants die very quickly, and defensive variants give free turns to powerful special attackers or mons that don't care about scald, and it straight up loses to mega Sab.

Many OU defoggers, such as Mandibuzz and Zapdos, suffer from a stealth rock weakness. Skarmory doesn't, but it would much rather dedicate a moveslot to a move such as spikes or whirlwind so it can perform well in other roles. The most used defoggers, the Lati twins, have the fewest flaws in my eyes, but they are still susceptible to Bisharp, and they can be pursuit trapped, which can either limit them to one Defog, or prevent it entirely. OU would definitely benefit from a hazard remover that is capable of the following:

• Defeating or forcing out common hazard setters
• Have workarounds to common answers to hazard removal
• Still perform some sort of role when it is not removing hazards, whether the role be offensive or defensive.

There are many ways to approach this, and this leaves a lot of room for creativity while still focusing on a clear-cut goal.

I agree with the relevance of this concept, since hazards tend to be on the field for most of the match even with the presence of hazard removers in the current metagame. Creating an environment where this is not the case would certainly give us lots of new insight, alone by the noticeable shift of viable threats that would occur as a result.
However, I have to agree with ginjaninja that the concept seems to go a bit to far with the "ultimate hazard control", expecting it to be a capable offensive and defensive threat to most of the metagame all while reliably preventing and removing hazards throughout the match in your favour. I understand that it might need to have a good matchup against hazard setters themselves, but a Pokemon that can't be taken advantage of by the opponent doesn't seem very balanced to me. You state that the Pokemon mustn't give free turns to its counters, but exactly that is the risk when using supporting Pokemon that keeps them balanced. And while there are offensive hazard removers in the game that minimize the free turns the opponent gets, those can't be expected to support their team throughout the match and freely find switch ins once hazards have been laid.
In my opinion, giving the Pokemon the ability to reliably act as either an offensive or defensive hazard prevention/remover would be more appropriate and sufficient to fulfill the concept. The defensive approach would by default give the opponent some free turns, while the offensive approach would suffer from a limited switch in opportunities and lifespan, but that is no different from how most Pokemon in OU function. Taking on both of these roles wouldn't be necessary with proper team support and smart play, factors that should be requirement to successfully using a Pokemon anyway.

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Name: Checkmate Positioning

General Description: This will be a Pokemon with the ability to either offensively or defensively bolster a teammate's threat level, such that said teammate's checks are left at a disadvantage.

Justification: As many people would claim, a very substantial portion of the Gen VI metagame relies on matchups and how they are used to one's advantage. This often means that some teams intrinsically fall apart against others, and some simply stonewall others by virtue of matchup. This is mainly eased by employing the use of entry hazards, momentum grabbing and prediction, but such maneuvers still succumb to the fact that the opponent has the exact same tools at hand most of the time, and can simply 'out-skill' you by keeping in pace with you. Some clever sets make use of lure moves, but that in itself poses a problem - a lure automatically means some form of compromise on the user's part, be it coverage or offensive/defensive presence.

What I would like to explore with this CAP concept are the processes of matchup management and compromise mitigation. That is, how would a player employ a Pokemon made for the purpose of easing the burden of matchup? How does this create strategic liberties for a team to take advantage of? How does one make a Pokemon that turns 'playing with the cards stacked against you' into a strategic advantage? Furthermore, this concept analysis extends beyond just the battle scene, and finds importance in the teambuilding mindset - how do we deal with matchup problems a team may face, and how do we take a more proactive approach to such problems?

Questions To Be Answered:
- How do we define the scenario where a check or counter can no longer perform its role against its intended targets, leaving the opponent in a 'checkmate position'?
- What are the forms of matchup management currently at our disposal?
- How do we come to the decisions of employing lures, and how do we make up for the compromise such sets force us to take?
- As stated before, how does one make a Pokemon that turns 'playing from behind' into a strategic advantage? How do we effectively punish an opponent for maintaining momentum and not suspecting a trap?
- Can there be a Pokemon with the ability to PROACTIVELY make a teammate harder to switch into, rather than just a passive method like hazards or a prediction-reliant method like momentum-grabbing moves or double switching?
- Is it possible to do this without one-dimensional answers like QuickPass?

Explanation: A large concern that comes with an idea like this is that many of the problems above can be solved with something like Baton Pass. However, its main users, Smeargle, Scolipede and Espeon, are incredibly one-dimensional in their role, whether it's coughing up boosts or sweeping with said boosts. It's also a very restrictive archetype, only allowing sweepers that can make maximum usage of the stats proferred upon them (and even then, they can be beaten), and more importantly, only work with one-dimensional setup roles that are only useful for their singular purpose on a team, and then promptly dying (read: Screens/Memento users and setting up big boosts like Shell Smash/Geomancy/Speed Boosts). What I want to explore is the concept of a fleshed-out Pokemon that is capable of performing functions outside of just aiding a teammate, but when needed, can provide help in a manner that takes advantage of disadvantageous matchups - WITHOUT relying on a fat bundle of overwhelming boosts or solely passive impact like entry hazards. What we need to analyze and determine is exactly how this is accomplished, and what strengths and weaknesses each method brings to the table.

As far as I see, all of the attributes you list in the concept already apply to a standard core in OU, which is basically defined by mutually benefiting both Pokemon in an indirect way, by having them cover most of each other's offensive or defensive threats. This alone allows the team to deal with most of them, while VoltTurn infamously allows the core to handle switch-ins even better. In fact, Landorus and Rotom-W seem to fulfill the concept perfectly, making me wonder what else we could possibly learn from building an entire CAP project around this. Please feel free to correct me if I missed out or misinterpreted anything in the concept. :/

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Name: What STAB?

General Description: A Pokemon whose coverage options are just as important as, if not much more important than, its STAB.

Justification: Coverage is a very important part of many offensive Pokemon, but typically the main goal of coverage is to cover the resists of their main STAB(s). In Gen IV Electivire was considered one of the most overrated Pokemon in OU because though it had amazing super-effective coverage, its moves were so weak it couldn't do much with them. Greninja is probably the other extreme, by getting STAB on everything its coverage made it broken. EVire, though, left quite a bit of undiscovered potential, and with better moves and better stats we could probably engineer EVire 2.0, OU Version.

Questions to be answered:
- If its STAB is going to be relatively unimportant, how is the typing to be determined?
- How do we balance its power?
- How important is supereffective coverage in the OU metagame versus neutral coverage?
- Though this concept lends itself to be a wallbreaker, can we perhaps create another role that also uses amazing coverage (without being broken of course)?

Explanation: With this concept, I'm not saying we just slap Normal typing on it and give it every move in existence. In fact, that's probably a bad idea and would probably create another Exploud or Porygon-Z, especially considering how good Normal's neutral coverage is (compared to, say, Electric). Rather, the Pokemon's typing would still be important, not just defensively but also as an offensive complement to its other coverage. For example, if we made it Poison-type, it could use Poison Jab alongside Close Combat, which would help take out any Steel-types, and Crabhammer/Wood Hammer, for Ground-types. In this same example, we should therefore not give the Pokemon Gunk Shot, as that would give it a "main" move to spam, which defeats the purpose of this concept. I'm not totally opposed to Protean but I feel like that has already been explored and would deprive the CAP of any other interesting abilities (for example, we could have it take after Hitmonchan with the Iron Fist-boosted elemental punches as its main moves).

Since you mentioned neutral vs. supereffective coverage, I'd say that the former is inherently more reliant on power and thus STAB than the latter. There is a reason why Dragon-type has never been used much as a coverage move despite its lack of resistances, and even in the rare cases it was it would never come close to the importance of the main STAB. This leads me to believe that supereffective coverage is really the only way to go about this project, unless we want to unnaturally force CAP into using neutral coverage by movepool limitations, something I doubt we would learn a lot from. Of course, supereffective coverage is mostly associated with wallbreakers, and is almost essential for them to do their job. While sweepers may employ supereffective coverage as well, I'd argue that their lower reliance on it would make them lesser approaches of this concept. Something I would consider a subgroup of wallbreakers, lures, similarly utilize supereffective coverage to great effect, though their situational usefulness probably wouldn't be optimal for the project either.
So in conclusion I see this concept basically resolving around building a wallbreaker, unless we deliberately choose a different - probably less suitable - approach. And building a wallbreaker is a very vague concept, that unfortunately doesn't really give us much guidance throughout the project, and thus doesn't have to many specific questions that could be answered by the end result.

 

[ginganinja]

I don't think you are going to learn anything about "What STAB" that we don't already know. There are tons of pokemon out there with an "ok" STAB with nice coverage moves, like maybe Starmie in earlier gens, Jirachi (which in BW would sometimes not even run a STAB move) yeah like, I could prolly list most of the pokemon in OU right now and many of them could fit within the scope of this proposal. Landorus-I for instance, might have had ground STAB (which people would argue, made it vulnerable to levitate and flying mon, + grass resists), but it backed this up with sheer coverage. I...just think its vague and there isn't anything to learn from this pokemon.

 

[EternalSnowman]

Name: Mega Suppressant

General Description: A Pokemon that is able to reliably beat the top-tier Mega Evolutions, but not doing as well against non Mega Pokemon.

Justification: In XY & ORAS, the metagame changed significantly, due to the introduction of many new Mega Pokemon. Many of them changed the metagame significantly to the point they had to be banned, (M-Salamence, M-Mawile, M-Khan). In general OU is a tier that has been very much Mega centralized, even so much that M-Latios, who isn't that bad, falls all the way to C Rank on viability due to its opportunity cost. Many Mega Evolutions are used as their teams win-cons and many Pokemon fall out of viability or gain them due to the Megas (I have experimented with Pokemon in both normal OU and OU(No Mega) and have found a significant difference). In this CAP I want to be able to explore a Pokemon that suppresses Mega Pokemon as less of a Win-Con (M-CharizardX) or "Catch-All" threat to many Pokemon (M-Venusaur). The CAP should also perform not as well against common Pokemon to not over centralize the metagame.

Questions to be Answered:
- How do we make it succeed in match-up based battles?
- Is it possible to make it successful vs. Megas and not normal Pokemon?
- How do we address the issue of over centralizing?
- Do we choose to make it an offensive or defensive Pokemon?

Explanation:
I think there are many Pokemon that have been able to survive the Mega power creep and those who were left in the dust (see Jolteon, Jellicent), being able to suppress Mega Evolutions could change the viabilities of many of the other Pokemon like Conkeldurr that don't have favorable match-ups against new Megas. I think the best way to tackle this is to look at where Mega Pokemon have over normal Pokemon. It mainly falls under Abilities and Stats, so utilizing Gastro Acid or similar stat suppressants to beat these Megas. However I am unsure as to how to do it, and through developing CAP we might be able to learn what the strengths of Megas are and if it is possible to be able to overcome these stat creeps.

 

[nyttyn]

We've seen "Mega Stopper" concepts before, and the concept retains the same issue now that it had in the past - to beat all of the 'good' mega pokemon in OU, you would need a hideously overpowered hypercentralizer the likes of which even Mega Rayquaza would blush at. I understand the desire to try and make a meta where Mega Evolution is no longer as much of a factor, but we already have something like that even ignoring the fact that this concept is impossible - it's called the "No Mega OU ladder."

 

[Iron Caliber]

Might as well give this another shot.

Concept Name: Adrenaline Rush

General Description: A high-risk, high-reward sweeper that sets up by deterring opposing sweepers, using offensive pressure to create opportunity in the face of danger.

Justification: The ORAS metagame as we've seen has been heavily influenced by powerful sweepers, most of which are high-statline Megas (M-Metagross, M-Diancie, M-Char X, etc.). Sweeping in general is a game of threading the needle: You need to find the opportunity to set up, or find a good switch via prediction, putting pressure on the opponent's checks, or otherwise. Making sure the defensive checks on the opposing team is an essential criteria. Once you get down to the rest of the opposing team that is unable to take hits, you win...right? Imagine a subverted sweeper that thrives on danger, using its own offensive capabilities to force opportunities to sweep, rather than waiting. This CAP would use its typing, abilities, or movepool to engage opposing sweepers head on, but in a "safe" environment, it struggles to set up, by being easily crippled or being weak to certain defensive strategies. This kind of sweeper would make players re-evaluate defensive checks and all-in sweepers, expanding the viability of Pokemon with niche defensive options.

Questions to be Answered:

• What defines a sweeping opportunity? How thorough does one have to be to achieve the "perfect sweep"?
• How will sweepers in the current OU metagame respond to a threat that sets up against other sweepers? How must their strategies be adjusted?
• How drastic can we make a Pokemon's risks and rewards? Is there a point where a Pokemon is too risky to use?
• How easy is it to make a reversal in the lategame? Is there a point where the "X-factor" of a Pokemon is too strong?
• How can a Pokemon fill this role without being a dedicated revenge killer? How definite can we make the line between sweeping and revenge killing roles?

Explanation: Now, I know what you're all thinking. This type of Pokemon is just a revenge killer, right? There are plenty of those that have sweeping capabilities: Talonflame, Diggersby, Alakazam...frail Pokemon that can accomplish great things, but only after eliminating a specific threat. Even more bulky revenge killers like Mamoswine and Azumarill have a hard time truly sweeping if their offensive checks stay up (Azumarill is countered by Thundurus, for instance). This CAP wouldn't rely on revenge killing; in fact, I'd like to try and make a Pokemon from this concept that is as far away from a revenge killer as possible. Instead, this Pokemon is a dedicated sweeper, that has the tools to counter other sweepers, without having the revenge killing factor. It would be a sweeper that can come back from under pressure, but be lost without it. In a vacuum, this Pokemon would be unable to sweep effectively. Abilities like Guts are great examples of how we can apply this concept, and would also illustrate the "being crippled in a vacuum" aspect. If it becomes burned, it will get a huge Attack boost, and can sweep that way against an enemy sweeper, but if it's paralyzed, it may not be able to keep up. The idea of exploring how much we can make a sweeper thrive in danger and not be a revenge killer is how I think we can make this concept interesting.

Or, it can be really bad and jumbled up. I'm still new to this and probably won't go anywhere with it.

 

[P3DS]

Name: Twisting the Dimensions

General Description: This Pokemon's presence would bring the Trick Room archetype into the current metagame.

Justification: The OU metagame has a lot of very fast pokemon in it. With the introduction of Trick Room into the metagame, it would shake up strategies, and bring a lot of commonly over looked Pokemon back into the eyes of the players. Trick room itself is an interesting move. It lasts 5 turns, but during that time, slow Pokemon get to move first. There are a lot of pokemon in lower tiers that are there because their speed isn't up to scratch. Look at Pokemon like Emboar, Abomasnow and Aggron: all powerful Pokemon, but their pitiful speed makes them too much of a liability in the fast metagame that OU is known for. If Trick Room became a strong archetype in the current format, it would bring forth a wave of new strategies and playstyles.

Questions To Be Answered:

• Should the CAP be a TR setter, or will it's presence be enough to bring TR setters from lower tiers back to the OU meta? (As in, what is it's role?)
• What job will the CAP have when TR is up?
• How slow will the CAP need to be to be effective?
• Should the CAP have any presence outside of TR?
• Should it promote semi-TR switch teams (Switch meaning it can easily flip between non TR and TR)
• The main reason TR isn't really played is that you have the following scenario: TR->switch to strong TR mon->3 turns of TR-> TR down. How will the CAP's presence optimize the time TR is up for the team.

Explanation: I predominantly come from a doubles perspective, and in that, we get a lot of trick room. Looking at OU, it is sad that TR is't used as much. It can cause havoc in the current format, and will be something to play around with. It would bring a wave of pokemon that were thrown aside because of speed. Full TR teams can Although the full, heavy trick room teams are powerful, Switch teams are an interesting archetype to come along with Trick Room. These utilize Trick Room to flip the game in their favour, to switch between fast games and slow games. These sorts of teams incorporate other archetypes in, such as sand and rain. I feel that the meta will get a nice shake up with TR brought more, and will bring something fresh to the metagame.

 

[Qwilphish]

In response to the past two concepts as they are actually usable lmao:

Adrenaline Rush: I like the premise behind this concept as it rolls into the set-up aspect of sweeping that we haven't really delved into yet compared to Naviathan's concept which explored the actual "sweeping" aspect. Sets such as CM Latios are effective because they create free turns extremely easily by forcing the opponent out often, and although it is a stretch to call CM Latios a sweeper the idea behind the set and the concept are the same (from my understanding). I am concerned about how this concept will be executed however because the whole reason why these Pokemon who set-up on predicted switches work is because they have a main set which is dangerous in the first place and the secondary set plays off of the first set's viability.

Twisting the Dimensions: Okay, this is a TR concept. Normally, I would dismiss these kind of one-dimensional concepts as they do not create enjoyable concepts normally, however I feel like now can be a good time for TR to be visited fully with a metagame that is primarily Offense and Balance based and w/o which just killed every TR setter besides Cress. idk what else to say because the concept is very streamlined and the format itself is nice and the questions aren't simple y/n questions and are good guidelines to learning more about an underused playstyle in the OU metagame.

 

[Mulan15262]

Concept Name: Wonder Room wallbreaker

General Description: This pokemon is a dedicated wallbreaker that is either entirely physical or entirely special and relies on Wonder Room to beat walls that it couldn't otherwise beat.

Justification: Wonder Room is a move that switches all pokemon's defense and special defense stats for its duration. This would seem to allow pokemon that are entirely physically or specially oriented to be able to get past their normal walls. However, the only pokemon that get it are too frail to use it (i.e. Gengar, Gallade), too defensive to have a use for it (i.e. Clefable, Spiritomb), specially oriented with Psyshock to get past special walls (i.e. Reuniclus, Beheeyem), or just not good enough for OU (i.e. Golduck, Solrock). This pokemon would not be any of those, and it would be able to effectively use Wonder Room.

Questions to be Answered:

• How good are walls at defending against a pokemon that can switch their defensive stats?
• Are some of the lesser used field effects just not used because it has no good pokemon to use them?
• Can a wallbreaker spend an extra turn setting up against a wall without becoming too hindered to defeat it?
• How would a pokemon that can strike walls at their weaker defensive stat affect the use of said walls in the metagame?
• How would a such a wallbreaker affect the stalliness of the metagame?
• Would such a pokemon be used as a wonder room setter to help the rest of the team deal with pokemon it otherwise can't?

Explanation: This pokemon would provide the metagame with something it doesn't have, a pokemon that can use Wonder Room to make walls have their defensive stats switched. It would rely on this to beat walls that it would otherwise be attacking on their higher defensive stat. This pokemon would then be able to use it, along with its high attack or special attack, to beat a majority of walls in the metagame. It would also have to be reasonably bulky, so that the walls don't just one or two hit KO it.

 

[nyttyn]

Adrenaline Rush - this concept is just flawed because of its own designs. certainly it's a neat idea to set up on opposing sweepers, but if you switch into them as they set up, it takes one behemoth of a pokemon to be able to take on more than a few specific checks/counters. And if you can't threaten out (and get threatened out BY) a defensive pokemon at +0, odds are good that at +1 or even at +2 they'll still cripple you or force you out. needs to be narrowed down before it can be seriously looked at.

Twisting the Dimensions - trick room is so incredibly awful in this meta that a single addition will not save it. it's the same underlying issue that hail had back when hail was still possible to salvage - it needs at least enough pokemon to have multiple viable settlers, then it also needs much better abusers on top of that (because let's face it the current 'abusers' of trick room blow chunks and are not at all worth the setup time).

Wonder Room wallbreaker -

Psyshock inflicts physical damage. Despite being classified as special move, this move calculates damage using the user's Special Attack and the opponent's Defense stat (similar toPsystrike and Secret Sword).

in any game where psyshock and secret sword exist wonder room is unusuable. in any world where psyshock and secret sword do not exist, wonder room is still unusable. there are very, very, very few pokemon who have defense stats such that swapping them will be a bettter use of your time than swords dance, nasty plot, or straight up attacking twice. (Blissey and...uh, maybe skarmory I guess? and blissey kinda really sucks now lol.)


guys please focus on actually usable concepts. I understand the desire to be creative, and indeed creativity is encouraged, but there comes a point where you can be too creative, and wind up eschewing practicality. also remember not to make your concept too vague, as it's hard to work with something as broad as "taking on sweepers" in a metagame where there's a fucktuple of them.

 

[ginganinja]

in addition to nyttyn's post on Adrenaline Rush. The last time we did something that involved " high risk, high reward + sweeper" we ended up with the most reliable pokemon in existence, that just happened to be the best sweeper in the game. I really doubt the community has improved enough for a different outcome to occur if we tried this concept again.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

in addition to nyttyn's post on Adrenaline Rush. The last time we did something that involved " high risk, high reward + sweeper" we ended up with the most reliable pokemon in existence, that just happened to be the best sweeper in the game. I really doubt the community has improved enough for a different outcome to occur if we tried this concept again.

The thing is that the reason this happened was that bugmaniacbob abused his power as topic leader, I'm not saying I like the concept at all (In fact I pretty much feel the same way about it as ntyytn does), I'm just saying that because of bugmaniacbob's actions during CAP4 make me feel like this isn't a very good reason to reject the concept because it's extremely similar to Aurumoth's

 

[nyttyn]

The thing is that the reason this happened was that bugmaniacbob abused his power as topic leader, I'm not saying I like the concept at all (In fact I pretty much feel the same way about it as ntyytn does), I'm just saying that because of bugmaniacbob's actions during CAP4 make me feel like this isn't a very good reason to reject the concept because it's extremely similar to Aurumoth's

i'm leaving this post up as a warning.

the next person who uses 'but it was bugmanaicbob illumanati' as a strawman gets their post deleted on the spot.

Aurumoth's failings went well, well beyond what bugmaniacbob did, and while he was certainly a large part of it, the same issues that CAP has with risk:reward assessment are still present today (see: Cawmodore, Naviathan).

 

[Ununhexium]

Name: Medic

General Description: A Pokemon that can provide cleric support to offensive teams while keeping up offensive pressure.

Justification: We all know how big a threat status is to offensive teams. Your Pokemon gets paralyzed and it basically becomes death fodder as it loses its Speed. A bad play or prediction can leave your wallbreaker's Attack halved for the rest of the match. Your sweeper switches into a Toxic and on top of Life Orb recoil its just dies quickly. Status sucks, and offense hates it. Well just run a cleric, right? Yeah, but then there's the problem that every cleric in OU is slow and relatively passive and sucks the momentum from your team. However, what if there was a Pokemon that could cure status AND keep offensive momentum going.

Questions To Be Answered:

• How will an offensive cleric influence the metagame
• Will it often be better for offensive teams to heal teammates or just attack
• Should it double as a wallbreaker or sweeper or provide other types of support

Explanation: This would introduce a new niche into the OU metagame. Currently, the closest thing to what I'm going for here is Xerneas, which unfortunately Uber. Also, one could argue that Sylveon can do this to an extent, but its not really offensive enough outside a Choice Specs set. I'm bad at adding stuff here, so let's see where this concept goes.

 

[Empress]

Name: Medic

General Description: A Pokemon that can provide cleric support to offensive teams while keeping up offensive pressure.

Justification: We all know how big a threat status is to offensive teams. Your Pokemon gets paralyzed and it basically becomes death fodder as it loses its Speed. A bad play or prediction can leave your wallbreaker's Attack halved for the rest of the match. Your sweeper switches into a Toxic and on top of Life Orb recoil its just dies quickly. Status sucks, and offense hates it. Well just run a cleric, right? Yeah, but then there's the problem that every cleric in OU is slow and relatively passive and sucks the momentum from your team. However, what if there was a Pokemon that could cure status AND keep offensive momentum going.

Questions To Be Answered:

• How will an offensive cleric influence the metagame
• Will it often be better for offensive teams to heal teammates or just attack
• Should it double as a wallbreaker or sweeper or provide other types of support

Explanation: This would introduce a new niche into the OU metagame. Currently, the closest thing to what I'm going for here is Xerneas, which unfortunately Uber. Also, one could argue that Sylveon can do this to an extent, but its not really offensive enough outside a Choice Specs set. I'm bad at adding stuff here, so let's see where this concept goes.

I was literally going to post the exact same concept :P

That's because it's something that would be great to try, though. The main things we're going to have to be wary of is whether this mon will miss having a moveslot on an attacking move, or if using a cleric move inherently causes a loss of momentum (which I feel that it kinda does, though I could be wrong). If we can determine that we can build this mon without those two worries coming into place, we have ourselves a winning concept on our hands. Well done.

 

[plaindrome]

Name: Start and Finish

General Description: A Pokemon that is best utilized at the beginning and end of a battle.

Justification: Many teams have Pokemon specifically intended to be used at the very start of the battle. Many of these leads Pokemon that are expendable once they set something up, suicide leads such as Azelf or Infernape. However, this 'mon would be able to also serve as a useful cleaner late in a battle. This also means that if the Pokemon doesn't get an opportunity to be useful at the beginning, it wouldn't immediately become dead weight, unlike most suicide leads.

Questions To Be Answered:
Would this Pokemon be able to be useful at the start of the match without fainting, so it can still be used later?
Can a Pokemon serve two drastically varying purposes without getting 4MSS?
Can such a 'mon be made without fulfilling one role much better than the other?
How would this 'mon affect the usage of pre-existing suicide leads and late game cleaners?
Without items that are useful for both leads and cleaners, will this 'mon be able to fully utilize its item?

Explanation: I imagine this Pokemon as a rather frail, fast 'mon, similar to many cleaners and suicide leads. It would be able to set up something (hazards, screens, trick room) at the beginning of the battle, switched out, and used again to finish of the opponent last couple Pokemon. This would also be different from Pokemon like Garchomp, which can set up rocks early on and then be used for the rest of battle, because this Pokemon wouldn't be able to switch in and out as frequently as more tanky 'mons.

 

[You...You...]

Name: Toxic Abuser

General Description: A Pokemon that can abuse being toxiced offensively and defensively (maybe with the use of different forms?).

Justification: This pokemon would be able to abuse poison in two different ways. In an offensive way, in a similar vein to Guts Heracross, Conkeldurr, Zangoose and Ursaring, and in a defensive way like Poison Heal Gliscor (or we could make a new ability that increases defences when poisoned but that's irrelevant right now). This is unique because there is no pokemon who can do both things well and there is no pokemon who uses poison offensively very well in the higher tiers (Uber, OU, UU): Conkeldurr isn't very good in OU and generally doesn't carry Toxic/Flame Orb so it isn't status reliably and Toxic Orb Heracross is mostly sub-optimal compared to Mega and Choice Scarf.

Questions To Be Answered:
Would this Pokemon have to change forms to use poison offensively and defensively? If so, how would this achieved? Using a move similarly to Aegislash or from an ability?
If there aren't going to be two different forms, how are we going to spread out this pokemon's offensive and defensive stats to avoid it being broken but be viable in both uses?
Can such a 'mon be made without fulfilling one role much better than the other?
Do we have to create a new ability for this 'mon to be viable?
What typing will balance these offensive and defensive capabilities?

Explanation: I imagine this 'mon's offensive and defensive sides will work in two very different ways with the Offensive one probably geared more to a status-absorbing stallbreaker and the defensive one geared towards providing status-absorbing utility on defensively oriented teams. Of course if this 'mon changes forms then I believe it will act sort of like Aegislash in the sense that it will switch to the defensive form to take hits and set-up(?) while using the offensive form to dish out damage.

 

[ginganinja]

General Description: A Pokemon that can provide cleric support to offensive teams while keeping up offensive pressure.

There ARE decently fast pokemon that can use Heal Bell though. IIRC Celebi and Mew can both do this to an extent (and thats just off the top of my head, there might be others), the reason the move doesn't get used however, is because mostly a team would prefer getting a +2 boosting move off and then sweeping rather than a Heal Bell off. Like, I think Healing Wish is generally a better "cleric" move since not only does it heal + remove status but it actually faints the user, letting your sweeper get that free turn. Compare this with Heal Bell when you need to switch the mon in, burn a free turn to Heal Bell, and then burn a turn to somehow bring your sweeper back in against and try and go for sweep V2. Or alternatively, slam your sweepers into the opposing team until your 5 or 6th mon can finally clean through.

General Description: A Pokemon that is best utilized at the beginning and end of a battle.

I'm a little leery of this because you really want something like Greninja or LO Deoxys-S or something. IE something really super fast with near perfect coverage (or the ability to cover nearly everything), as well as the ability to get KO's right off that bat without any prior boosting. In addition to your point, it also needs to have some sort of lead threat, (Greninja could threaten 3 attacks + Spikes for momentum), and in the end you just have a complete package of a good mon. The trouble is, you make up something like Greninja, not only does such a pokemon risk being "too good", you end up having no ability to "force" the pokemon to be a lead, since you can use it as a cleaner or however you want, there just isn't a way to "force" something to lead ergo, you don't really end up achieving your concept.

General Description: A Pokemon that can abuse being toxiced offensively and defensively (maybe with the use of different forms?).

This is unique because there is no pokemon who can do both things well and there is no pokemon who uses poison offensively very well in the higher tiers

There is a reason for this, its because between Toxic/Burn Orb damage and something as common as Sandstorm, such a pokemon dies really, really fast. Add in Rough Skin, Iron Barbs, the massive amount of priority in the metagame (that fact that pokemon itself prolly needs to be fast / have prio of its own to be effective), really make it hard to use poison offensively. You can go defensive, but then you end up with something like Gliscor / Breloom. It also sounds like you really want a form changing mon and want to tailor this concept to use it, but this has problems. If you end up with a non form changing mon the concept falls utterly flat, and even if you do get a form changing CAP, it still might not be enough to make the concept work.