There's no point in doing anything special for this, no one was going to discuss it anyway. E rank is for all unviable Pokemon; how unviable they are is irrelevant because it doesn't matter which Pokemon are more unviable than others.
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Lower Tiers PU Viability Rankings
- Thread starter Anty
- Start date
I think Unown should be outside of any serious discussion since isn't viable even in three tiers under PU. (I have tested it on some hypotetical lower tiers... Is just plain garbage even for Little cup and considering it using eviolite).
Regarding Masquerain, I had used it on some PU teams back when Sneasel and Musharna were things to care about and it was really good at quiver passing and even dealing nice damage thanks to Bug Buzz and Scald burns... But considering the threats right now, I think that its only niche is passing boosts because isn't as fast-powerful-bulky, it should be to handle things like Simipour, Raichu, Pelipper, Piloswine or even Poliwrath...
Regarding Masquerain, I had used it on some PU teams back when Sneasel and Musharna were things to care about and it was really good at quiver passing and even dealing nice damage thanks to Bug Buzz and Scald burns... But considering the threats right now, I think that its only niche is passing boosts because isn't as fast-powerful-bulky, it should be to handle things like Simipour, Raichu, Pelipper, Piloswine or even Poliwrath...
Yeah, Quiver Pass is the only reason to ever use Masquerain, but even then, it's way too predictable a set to begin using on a competitive team (especially not one that is in PUPL, as I understood the point of PUPL to show off the skill of higher level battlers, not D level gimmicks like Electroweb Leavanny / Quiverpass Masquerain / Iron Defense + Quiver Dance Dustox lol). Using Masquerain has a high opportunity cost too, given there's almost always something better that could fill its teamslot. I think the reason why you felt your Masquerain was successful, Raiza, was because of Light Screen / Reflect support instead. Screens are a highly underrated strategy in PU, which is something I've noticed lately during my battles against other auth like Gasquakee / Dundies.
SR + Rapid Spin Armaldo is also not a great set. It has nothing to do to Poliwrath when it inevitably switches into Armaldo. I'd rather use Toxic on Armaldo over SR for that reason. Hell, I'd even use Lansat Berry Natural Gift Armaldo before I use Rapid Spin and Stealth Rock on the same set. If your plan was to support Masquerain by removing Stealth Rock, I'd use a Defogger with Masquerain at the very least, and leave laying Stealth Rock to a different Pokemon. Defog is much more reliable support for Masquerain because it's a lot harder to block (requires a higher level of prediction with a faster Taunt, rather than simply switching in a Ghost).
Torkoal is similar to Armaldo in this regard, as it's not recommended to run SR + Rapid Spin on it either. Its Smashkoal set is much better, with a Timid Nature, 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe EVs, White Herb, and a moveset of Shell Smash / Earth Power / Fire Blast / Rapid Spin.
well to be fair if there is a thing to make tournament fun is to use effective or specific sets just to catch one player or team style off guard since "who the hell actually prepares for this crap". While some low ranked Pokemon can be considered pretty gimmicky (well for example dustox but that Mon at least beats some popular cores such as Tangela and Clefairy) sets like Electroweb leavanny can definitely be considered viable if youngest a matchup against Swanna or Pelipper that much. Myself last week I've run Choice Scarf Arbok with Switcheroo and Ice Fang to support a Klang sweep by crippling and catching ground types off guard and it won me the game by locking poliwrath into a move and by surprising and killing a Gabite (which is a Mon I predicted to use) so I wouldn't see how quiverpass couldn't have been expected if raiza predicted me to use certain Pokemon (its actually an extremely bullshit strategy to play against).
Also:
well, screen support alone doesn't do much for a team and the PU tier doesn't have plenty of Pokemon that can take advantage of it as well as Masquerain so I really don't see how it changes things since in my opinion it is quite D+ rank worthy (probably even C-).
And SR armaldo actually can do a little bit more to a Poliwrath coming in, such as setting Stealth Rock up (and this actually makes your team a little less weak to Poliwrath since adding another rocker is usually adding another Poliwrath-weak Pokemon) instead of using Toxic when it could have Rest + Sleep talk and when you should be packing a counter to it regardless.
Pls stay off muh Leavanny ;;; no seriously this is a legit set that I see no issue bringing. Rocks + spin kinda sucks but certainly isn't the worst either. As for Dustox, it's not like it would've done anything without lucking scorp first to dodge a hit that would've KO'd it. I think you're under rating some of these sets as well as their performance in PUPL.
Electroweb Leavanny is a set that I have also used, and it is indeed not a bad gimmick. The point isn't only to lure Pelipper/Swanna, it is to slow the first opponent down and then set webs- that way your league of slow wallbreakers can immediately be sent out. For example, take this scenario:
You send out Leavanny, the opponent sends out Rapidash. The Rapidash uses Flare Blitz, taking you down to your Sash, you use electroweb, slowing the Rapidash down. Then you use Sticky web. From then on, you can immediately send out your Rampardos/Kingler to revenge kill the Rapidash, instead of waiting for it to switch on webs.
As for Masquerain, its niche for QuiverPass is certainly enough to keep it D+ ranked. Masquerain sets up on a lot of common pokemon in the metagame, such as Machoke and Tangela and can be very hard to take out from there. You should keep in mind that not many people use answers to baton pass in this game (such as Roar and Whirlwind), so baton pass is a very dangerous strategy, and Masquerain is one of the best tools for that playstyle.
You send out Leavanny, the opponent sends out Rapidash. The Rapidash uses Flare Blitz, taking you down to your Sash, you use electroweb, slowing the Rapidash down. Then you use Sticky web. From then on, you can immediately send out your Rampardos/Kingler to revenge kill the Rapidash, instead of waiting for it to switch on webs.
As for Masquerain, its niche for QuiverPass is certainly enough to keep it D+ ranked. Masquerain sets up on a lot of common pokemon in the metagame, such as Machoke and Tangela and can be very hard to take out from there. You should keep in mind that not many people use answers to baton pass in this game (such as Roar and Whirlwind), so baton pass is a very dangerous strategy, and Masquerain is one of the best tools for that playstyle.
I would like to make a few nominations.
Mothim to D+ from E
I saw this nominated in the NU thread so this made me think "Why can't this be nominated for PU too?". Choice Specs Tinted Lens Mothim is the only set to use as every other set is very outclassed. With a Choice Specs boosted Tinted Lens Bug Buzz that literally has no relevant resists (now that Togetic is gone), it is evident that Mothim is a very dangerous wallbreaker/holepuncher. The question is: Why use this over other wallbreakers like 4 attacks Simipour or Rampardos? The answer: it can't be predicted around in any way due to Tinted Lens. For example, Jumpluff can switch in on Simipour's Hydro Pump, or Pawniard can switch in on a predicted Zen Headbutt from Rampardos, but Tinted Lens nullifies all such scenarios for Mothim. Mothim loses to Lickilicky and Clefairy (although Clefairy can be bopped by U-turn, leaving it in the 2HKO range of Bug Buzz), but it beats some of the major special walls such as Grumpig, Hypno, and Roselia. We all know Mothim's flaws- it is 4x weak to Stealth Rock, it is destroyed by Hyper Offense (although Hyper Offense isn't really all that common at the moment- Clefairy/Grumpig balance is more the norm), and Priority Weak, and that is why it should go no higher than D+ rank.
Note: I have not had any experience using Mothim but I have used Tinted Lens Butterfree extensively. Although Butterfree's main goal is to sweep with Quiver Dance, I spent much of my time just spamming Bug Buzz and it worked out great. Also, although Butterfree is certainly better than Mothim, it doesn't outclass it that much as a pure wallbreaker because Mothim hits harder, has U-turn, and Air Slash for Roselia.
Duosion from B to B+
Duosion is just a really scary sweeper- it is like Reuniclus in UU. People don't usually use this mon because they look at its 60/50 physical bulk and laugh, but with Eviolite and max investment this is actually quite bulky and can set up on pokemon like Piloswine. (252+ Atk Piloswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Duosion: 109-129 (32.6 - 38.6%) -- 98% chance to 3HKO). It can set up on common cores like Poliwrath/Roselia/Piloswine/Pelipper with ease and once it gets a Calm Mind, it is virtually impossible to beat without crits. What separates it from a pokemon like the highly inferior Calm Mind Clefairy for example, is its massive immediate power. Pokemon like Rapidash and Stoutland can easily switch into Clefairy while taking barely any damage, but Duosion's psychic can 2HKO almost all offensive pokemon, making it much harder to simply bludgeon past it. And Calm Mind is not the only set Duosion can run. It can use a specially defensive set similar to Clefairy, forgoing Stealth Rock for a MUCH higher offensive presence and possibly Regenerator. It can run a Trick Room set that is mostly outclassed by Beheeyem, but has Regenerator to set up TR multiple times. It can run a Calm Mind set with Regenerator that is quite difficult to take down with Heal Bell/Healing Wish support- the idea is that it can set up a calm mind and be taken down to something like 30% health by something like Banded Stoutland and kill it in the process. While a Magic Guard set would normally be done for in that situation, Regenerator can switch out, gain back more health, and try for another sweep.
Mothim to D+ from E
I saw this nominated in the NU thread so this made me think "Why can't this be nominated for PU too?". Choice Specs Tinted Lens Mothim is the only set to use as every other set is very outclassed. With a Choice Specs boosted Tinted Lens Bug Buzz that literally has no relevant resists (now that Togetic is gone), it is evident that Mothim is a very dangerous wallbreaker/holepuncher. The question is: Why use this over other wallbreakers like 4 attacks Simipour or Rampardos? The answer: it can't be predicted around in any way due to Tinted Lens. For example, Jumpluff can switch in on Simipour's Hydro Pump, or Pawniard can switch in on a predicted Zen Headbutt from Rampardos, but Tinted Lens nullifies all such scenarios for Mothim. Mothim loses to Lickilicky and Clefairy (although Clefairy can be bopped by U-turn, leaving it in the 2HKO range of Bug Buzz), but it beats some of the major special walls such as Grumpig, Hypno, and Roselia. We all know Mothim's flaws- it is 4x weak to Stealth Rock, it is destroyed by Hyper Offense (although Hyper Offense isn't really all that common at the moment- Clefairy/Grumpig balance is more the norm), and Priority Weak, and that is why it should go no higher than D+ rank.
Note: I have not had any experience using Mothim but I have used Tinted Lens Butterfree extensively. Although Butterfree's main goal is to sweep with Quiver Dance, I spent much of my time just spamming Bug Buzz and it worked out great. Also, although Butterfree is certainly better than Mothim, it doesn't outclass it that much as a pure wallbreaker because Mothim hits harder, has U-turn, and Air Slash for Roselia.
Duosion from B to B+
Duosion is just a really scary sweeper- it is like Reuniclus in UU. People don't usually use this mon because they look at its 60/50 physical bulk and laugh, but with Eviolite and max investment this is actually quite bulky and can set up on pokemon like Piloswine. (252+ Atk Piloswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Duosion: 109-129 (32.6 - 38.6%) -- 98% chance to 3HKO). It can set up on common cores like Poliwrath/Roselia/Piloswine/Pelipper with ease and once it gets a Calm Mind, it is virtually impossible to beat without crits. What separates it from a pokemon like the highly inferior Calm Mind Clefairy for example, is its massive immediate power. Pokemon like Rapidash and Stoutland can easily switch into Clefairy while taking barely any damage, but Duosion's psychic can 2HKO almost all offensive pokemon, making it much harder to simply bludgeon past it. And Calm Mind is not the only set Duosion can run. It can use a specially defensive set similar to Clefairy, forgoing Stealth Rock for a MUCH higher offensive presence and possibly Regenerator. It can run a Trick Room set that is mostly outclassed by Beheeyem, but has Regenerator to set up TR multiple times. It can run a Calm Mind set with Regenerator that is quite difficult to take down with Heal Bell/Healing Wish support- the idea is that it can set up a calm mind and be taken down to something like 30% health by something like Banded Stoutland and kill it in the process. While a Magic Guard set would normally be done for in that situation, Regenerator can switch out, gain back more health, and try for another sweep.
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you nom it for E not unranked ManOfMany. this is apparently very complicated on VR :S
edit: While I'm at it, I think it's fine there. Quiver Dancers can be legit scary, just tend to be outclassed by other things. If they're given the appropriate setup opportunities with team support then they can do work and Mothim should at least stay above E
Edit 2: forgot butterfree exists solely to outclass this thing
edit: While I'm at it, I think it's fine there. Quiver Dancers can be legit scary, just tend to be outclassed by other things. If they're given the appropriate setup opportunities with team support then they can do work and Mothim should at least stay above E
Edit 2: forgot butterfree exists solely to outclass this thing
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Oh ok changed it to "from E" :P
Also, I didn't nominate it for Quiver Dance at all because Quiver Dance is very outclassed by Butterfree, but for Choice Specs solely.
I agree with duosion completely but i strongly disagree with mothim being ranked. This is because it is outclassed by butterfree. Looking at their base stats they have similar bulk (with mothim having more ph def and butterfree more sdef), similar power (mothim only being 4 BP more), however butterfree has 4 more speed which is actually important, as butterfree can outspeed timid auroras, jolly rampardos and torterra, and adamant barbaracle and fraxure, as well as importantly speed tying with other base 70s such as mightyena/luxray/poliwrath which although rare or seemingly irrelevant (helps vs 50/50 suckers/switches vs yena) give it a bigger niche over mothim. Also air slash hitting roselia isnt important as butterfree can run psychic which also 2HKOs roselia all the time (it also has uturn, and even though its weaker you arent using uturn for strength). Also butterfree can even run sleep powder to cripple sdef clef and lickilicky if it has to.I would like to make a few nominations.
Mothim to D+ from E
I saw this nominated in the NU thread so this made me think "Why can't this be nominated for PU too?". Choice Specs Tinted Lens Mothim is the only set to use as every other set is very outclassed. With a Choice Specs boosted Tinted Lens Bug Buzz that literally has no relevant resists (now that Togetic is gone), it is evident that Mothim is a very dangerous wallbreaker/holepuncher. The question is: Why use this over other wallbreakers like 4 attacks Simipour or Rampardos? The answer: it can't be predicted around in any way due to Tinted Lens. For example, Jumpluff can switch in on Simipour's Hydro Pump, or Pawniard can switch in on a predicted Zen Headbutt from Rampardos, but Tinted Lens nullifies all such scenarios for Mothim. Mothim loses to Lickilicky and Clefairy (although Clefairy can be bopped by U-turn, leaving it in the 2HKO range of Bug Buzz), but it beats some of the major special walls such as Grumpig, Hypno, and Roselia. We all know Mothim's flaws- it is 4x weak to Stealth Rock, it is destroyed by Hyper Offense (although Hyper Offense isn't really all that common at the moment- Clefairy/Grumpig balance is more the norm), and Priority Weak, and that is why it should go no higher than D+ rank.
Note: I have not had any experience using Mothim but I have used Tinted Lens Butterfree extensively. Although Butterfree's main goal is to sweep with Quiver Dance, I spent much of my time just spamming Bug Buzz and it worked out great. Also, although Butterfree is certainly better than Mothim, it doesn't outclass it that much as a pure wallbreaker because Mothim hits harder, has U-turn, and Air Slash for Roselia.
Zweilous to B from B+
Zweilous walls a lot of pokés from Rank S to A- Such as:
Roselia, Rapidash, Kadabra, Ninetales, Zebstrika,even Beheeyem that besides dont being high ranked everytime that come at field Ohko a pokémon, and can switch in Jumpluff without fearing his Sleep powder, because defensive Zweilous carry Restalk.
Also PU lost most significant Fairy type, what is great to a pokémon with 4x weak to fairy, which do stop Zweilous an harder job.
Zweilous walls a lot of pokés from Rank S to A- Such as:
Roselia, Rapidash, Kadabra, Ninetales, Zebstrika,even Beheeyem that besides dont being high ranked everytime that come at field Ohko a pokémon, and can switch in Jumpluff without fearing his Sleep powder, because defensive Zweilous carry Restalk.
Also PU lost most significant Fairy type, what is great to a pokémon with 4x weak to fairy, which do stop Zweilous an harder job.
Screen support can do a lot for a team in my opinion. A move's damage is halved with dual screens, so if a move that would be super effective no longer is (unless it's 4 times super effective.) because the damage will just be regular. As for Masquerain taking advantage of it, Pelipper can defog the screen support away & make it very difficult for Masquerain to set-up. Other pokemon can defog the screen support away and threaten Masquerain out or keep it from coming in so it can't set-up. There are flaws for this plan, & there are some other pokemon that can play the role better than Masquerain in some situations. Dual screen support can also be very solid for some pokemon. I've used screen support on quite a few teams & I think the strategy is very under-rated. I even remember when Gasquakee & I both tested out some teams awhile back & I was using screens & those screens essentially gave me the win.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-226385992 not all too viable because Gas was testing out a team with a bad pokemon & I was not paying attention a few times but there are some nice plays in there with a few 50/50s that do show how dual screen support can be a good team idea.
It does have it's flaws as I've said before but it also has it's niches & with the right team it can be very solid.
This is entirely true, and I had kind of convinced myself otherwise by looking at the NU post and past analyses of Choice Specs Mothim in NU and RU. I guess those people just forgot about Butterfree entirely.
Someone better tell NU before they hype Mothim too much...
Deej Dy
Verified Ladder Scurb 乁( ◔ ౪◔)ㄏ
In NU I doubt it is being taken seriously, just overhyped by one dude. Also I wouldn't use NU as a example for PU tiering as they are completely different metagames (Ex: Flareon is B rank in NU)
Also Butterfree is boss: Sleep powder+Quiver Dance+Tinted Lens can create a sweep easily.
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Intimidate + Water + Ice coverage + Quiver Dance + Sticky Web isn't enough to at least give it a minuscule niche worth of at least D-? I have used it besides Quiverpass (With Quiver Dance, Scald, Bug Buzz and Sticky Web/Ice Beam/Roost and isn't that bad! :(
Your opponent having to guess if your set is outclassed Butterfree or outclassed Leavanny isn't a legitimate enough niche to deserve even a D- Rank. Water coverage isn't too useful either, i'd rather have something to put opponents asleep.
Lunatone for C+
I have been using Lunatone for around two weeks messing around with different sets aside from its effective Rock Polish but i have mainly been using it as a Choice Scarfer and the results i have been getting are very good. With a Choice Scarf Lunatone hits 358 speed if Modest Nature this is outsped by only Swoobat,Zebstrika,Electrode and Ninjask which are the only pokemon not boosted by a Choice Scarf or a Speed Boosting move (Rock Polish,Agility,Shell Smash) it can outspeed the previously mentioned pokemon (Bard Electrode and Ninjask) with a Timid Nature. Rock Polish outspeeds all of these pokemon after set-up and can only be Outsped by a Scarfer with a Base Speed of 96 or higher.
Lunatone for me has shown to be very effective and its nice base 95 Spa has allowed me to revenge a certain array of pokemon.
Calcs:
As you can see from those calcs it doesn't have the ability to OHKO but easily revenge/predict each one and with rocks support can finish many off with ease. And those are just notable threats/Common pokemon.
Flaws:
Issues both come from either Rock Polish or Scarf set with Rp requiring a turn to set-up and Scarf relying on Modest for important revenge kills or Timid for outspeeding other threats. It also isnt that bulky and cant switch in to many pokemon other then a predicted ground attack and weak Special attacks it is also Terrified of Sucker Punch (Mightyena,Pawniard,Arbok) and is stopped by Special walls such as Lickilicky,Clefairy and Grumpig. It suffers competition from Kadabra and Mr.Mime as a speedy Psychic mon. Kadabra with its sash set and Mr. Mime with its scarf set and Fairy Typing. Lastly its Rock Typing can be considered both a benefit and a burden as it gets know reliable special rock type moves with a pick of Hidden power rock or Ancient Power (AP has only 8 pp but can boost all your stats HP gets 24 pp) both with 60 Bp.
Sets:
Replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-247370841 <-- Fun battle showing Lunatones Capabilities against aquavida who played awesomely :)
I have been using Lunatone for around two weeks messing around with different sets aside from its effective Rock Polish but i have mainly been using it as a Choice Scarfer and the results i have been getting are very good. With a Choice Scarf Lunatone hits 358 speed if Modest Nature this is outsped by only Swoobat,Zebstrika,Electrode and Ninjask which are the only pokemon not boosted by a Choice Scarf or a Speed Boosting move (Rock Polish,Agility,Shell Smash) it can outspeed the previously mentioned pokemon (Bard Electrode and Ninjask) with a Timid Nature. Rock Polish outspeeds all of these pokemon after set-up and can only be Outsped by a Scarfer with a Base Speed of 96 or higher.
Lunatone for me has shown to be very effective and its nice base 95 Spa has allowed me to revenge a certain array of pokemon.
Calcs:
252+ SpA Lunatone Psychic vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Poliwrath: 284-336 (76.5 - 90.5%)
252+ SpA Lunatone Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Tangela: 177-208 (52.9 - 62.2%)
252+ SpA Lunatone Ancient Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rapidash: 210-248 (77.4 - 91.5%)
252+ SpA Lunatone Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Stoutland: 142-168 (45.6 - 54%)
252+ SpA Lunatone Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Roselia: 146-174 (48 - 57.2%)
252+ SpA Lunatone Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 236-278 (102.1 - 120.3%)
252+ SpA Lunatone Ancient Power vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Pelipper: 156-186 (48.2 - 57.5%)
252+ SpA Lunatone Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Tangela: 177-208 (52.9 - 62.2%)
252+ SpA Lunatone Ancient Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rapidash: 210-248 (77.4 - 91.5%)
252+ SpA Lunatone Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Stoutland: 142-168 (45.6 - 54%)
252+ SpA Lunatone Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Roselia: 146-174 (48 - 57.2%)
252+ SpA Lunatone Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 236-278 (102.1 - 120.3%)
252+ SpA Lunatone Ancient Power vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Pelipper: 156-186 (48.2 - 57.5%)
As you can see from those calcs it doesn't have the ability to OHKO but easily revenge/predict each one and with rocks support can finish many off with ease. And those are just notable threats/Common pokemon.
Flaws:
Issues both come from either Rock Polish or Scarf set with Rp requiring a turn to set-up and Scarf relying on Modest for important revenge kills or Timid for outspeeding other threats. It also isnt that bulky and cant switch in to many pokemon other then a predicted ground attack and weak Special attacks it is also Terrified of Sucker Punch (Mightyena,Pawniard,Arbok) and is stopped by Special walls such as Lickilicky,Clefairy and Grumpig. It suffers competition from Kadabra and Mr.Mime as a speedy Psychic mon. Kadabra with its sash set and Mr. Mime with its scarf set and Fairy Typing. Lastly its Rock Typing can be considered both a benefit and a burden as it gets know reliable special rock type moves with a pick of Hidden power rock or Ancient Power (AP has only 8 pp but can boost all your stats HP gets 24 pp) both with 60 Bp.
Sets:
Lunatone @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Rock Polish
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Rock]
- Earth Power / Baton Pass
Lunatone @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature / Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Ancient Power
- Earth Power
- Baton Pass / Ice Beam
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Rock Polish
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Rock]
- Earth Power / Baton Pass
Lunatone @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature / Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Ancient Power
- Earth Power
- Baton Pass / Ice Beam
Replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-247370841 <-- Fun battle showing Lunatones Capabilities against aquavida who played awesomely :)
Simisage from B+ to A- (was waiting until after my pupl game to make this nom)
Simisage @ Life Orb
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 29 HP
- Leaf Storm
- Knock Off
- Gunk Shot
- Superpower
This set is really, really good right now. While Simipour fares better against offense, Simisage does really well against the defensive balance and bulky offense teamstyles that are starting to get very popular. It dismantles basically every plausible defensive core in the tier really easily, including Cleftang + Missy which beats a ton of the meta right now. Its main issue is its low survivability, but if you use a team of Pokemon that can take advantage of its ability to dismantle common cores it can put in a ton of work. I could see this going higher at some point but I don't like jumping from B+ to A so I'm nomming it for A- for now.
Simisage @ Life Orb
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 29 HP
- Leaf Storm
- Knock Off
- Gunk Shot
- Superpower
This set is really, really good right now. While Simipour fares better against offense, Simisage does really well against the defensive balance and bulky offense teamstyles that are starting to get very popular. It dismantles basically every plausible defensive core in the tier really easily, including Cleftang + Missy which beats a ton of the meta right now. Its main issue is its low survivability, but if you use a team of Pokemon that can take advantage of its ability to dismantle common cores it can put in a ton of work. I could see this going higher at some point but I don't like jumping from B+ to A so I'm nomming it for A- for now.
Regice from A- to A
Building for this week's PUPL match, looking at various replays, I just realized how many teams are weak to this thing, so I decided to build a team around it and it worked out perfectly. It didn't show off a lot in my PUPL match, though during testing I found out that these days a LOT of teams are unprepared to it. Regice can actually set up on a big slice of the metagame because of its stellar special bulk and ok physical defense(Wood Hammer from Torterra did like 60-ish iirc), and if it does find setup opportunities, it is unstoppable most of the time because of its access to coverage moves such as Thunderbolt and Focus Blast other than a solid STAB in Ice Beam. The speed might be not that high, but with teams like bulky offense becoming popular, it can still pull off a sweep most of the time.
Building for this week's PUPL match, looking at various replays, I just realized how many teams are weak to this thing, so I decided to build a team around it and it worked out perfectly. It didn't show off a lot in my PUPL match, though during testing I found out that these days a LOT of teams are unprepared to it. Regice can actually set up on a big slice of the metagame because of its stellar special bulk and ok physical defense(Wood Hammer from Torterra did like 60-ish iirc), and if it does find setup opportunities, it is unstoppable most of the time because of its access to coverage moves such as Thunderbolt and Focus Blast other than a solid STAB in Ice Beam. The speed might be not that high, but with teams like bulky offense becoming popular, it can still pull off a sweep most of the time.
zebstrika to a: this pokemon was very useful in the previous meta as offense was by far the most common playstyle and zebstrika was very effective both on and against it, with fire coverage and a grass immunity to counter the anti-meta jumpluff. zebstrika does not like the new meta that much though. the pokemon that check it such as clefairy, roselia, and piloswine are far more common now, in addition the popularity of pokemon such as vibrava and gabite which force it to have a 50/50 hidden power for whatever it aims to beat. while it has volt switch, it doe snot outlast its counters and checks as it dies very quickly to life orb recoil in addition to hazard damage, and is not strong enough to compensate for it. this metagame does not favour zebstrika as much as previous metagames have.
rapidash to a: same thing, except rapidash is worse than zebstrika. rapidash is so weakand it's coverage moves barely do enough to things it wants to hit with them, causing rapidash to have a difficult time in the current meta, and it is also sr weak. however it has the advantages of recovery and more importantly, will-o-wisp making it not smash bait, and i think wisp is essential on rapidash at the moment. but i definitely don't think rapidash provides as much in a game as the rest of a+ rank.
tangela to a+: tangela is amazing; one of the best if not the best answers to torterra, barbaracle, carracosta, jumpluff, stoutland, you name it. rgenerator and its selection of support options aid it immensely. some teams really struggle against tangela without luring it with surprise knock off users or using toxic spikes.
grumpig to a+: sensational pokemon against balanced teams. you will very rarely find something not weak to psychic or focus blast that is not detered by taunt of toxic and can actually damage grumpig. grumpig is amazing; it walls a lot so it gets heaps of free switch ins, and it is nightmare for certain teams to deal with.
clefairy to a: as much as people like to dislike it this pokemon is great. the thunder wave rocks set is the best stealth rock setter in the tier imo, pokemon like probo, golem, and aurorus have their own disadvantages, but clefairy is just great. it is very hard to have a rocker that checks simipour as well. clefairy's typing and magic guard let it trouble a lot of teams that are around at the moment. easy a rank.
misdreavus to a: more of a want than a necessary change, but i think misdreavus is so valuable on a team because it compresses so many roles. it gives a ground immune, a normal immune, a fighting immune, spinblock, taunt, burn status, a check to boosted attackers, all on something that is 2hkoed by almost nothing so generally can check whatever pokemon you want to, not to mention np is still good even if the standard set is more efficient. it does suffer from no recovery combined with lack of leftovers, but with grumpig in a+ i can see misdreavus in a imo
arbok to b: arbok is a terrible pokemon imo. yes it beats some balance cores but the efficiency at which it does it is terrible. it can't switch in to the status moves of the pokemon it victimises with it's poison stab. even with intimidate it takes far too much damage from attackers, i have seen unstabbed attacks doing over half after intimidate from pokemon with average attack stats. against any decent offensive team it is almost worthless because even at +1 it's sucker punch is doing jack shit to even frail attackers, not to mention that getting that boost is not even that likely to happen. everything it should setup on can cripple it in some way. it is forced to use aqua tail or is walled by piloswine. it is pawniard bait. it is slow. it is weak to all hazards barring toxic spikes (i guess absorbing tspikes is valuable?). it is not on the same level of pokemon such as simisear
other things i think should happen: carracosta to a, ursaring + ninetales from a to a-, simisage to a-, mr. mime to a-
rapidash to a: same thing, except rapidash is worse than zebstrika. rapidash is so weakand it's coverage moves barely do enough to things it wants to hit with them, causing rapidash to have a difficult time in the current meta, and it is also sr weak. however it has the advantages of recovery and more importantly, will-o-wisp making it not smash bait, and i think wisp is essential on rapidash at the moment. but i definitely don't think rapidash provides as much in a game as the rest of a+ rank.
tangela to a+: tangela is amazing; one of the best if not the best answers to torterra, barbaracle, carracosta, jumpluff, stoutland, you name it. rgenerator and its selection of support options aid it immensely. some teams really struggle against tangela without luring it with surprise knock off users or using toxic spikes.
grumpig to a+: sensational pokemon against balanced teams. you will very rarely find something not weak to psychic or focus blast that is not detered by taunt of toxic and can actually damage grumpig. grumpig is amazing; it walls a lot so it gets heaps of free switch ins, and it is nightmare for certain teams to deal with.
clefairy to a: as much as people like to dislike it this pokemon is great. the thunder wave rocks set is the best stealth rock setter in the tier imo, pokemon like probo, golem, and aurorus have their own disadvantages, but clefairy is just great. it is very hard to have a rocker that checks simipour as well. clefairy's typing and magic guard let it trouble a lot of teams that are around at the moment. easy a rank.
misdreavus to a: more of a want than a necessary change, but i think misdreavus is so valuable on a team because it compresses so many roles. it gives a ground immune, a normal immune, a fighting immune, spinblock, taunt, burn status, a check to boosted attackers, all on something that is 2hkoed by almost nothing so generally can check whatever pokemon you want to, not to mention np is still good even if the standard set is more efficient. it does suffer from no recovery combined with lack of leftovers, but with grumpig in a+ i can see misdreavus in a imo
arbok to b: arbok is a terrible pokemon imo. yes it beats some balance cores but the efficiency at which it does it is terrible. it can't switch in to the status moves of the pokemon it victimises with it's poison stab. even with intimidate it takes far too much damage from attackers, i have seen unstabbed attacks doing over half after intimidate from pokemon with average attack stats. against any decent offensive team it is almost worthless because even at +1 it's sucker punch is doing jack shit to even frail attackers, not to mention that getting that boost is not even that likely to happen. everything it should setup on can cripple it in some way. it is forced to use aqua tail or is walled by piloswine. it is pawniard bait. it is slow. it is weak to all hazards barring toxic spikes (i guess absorbing tspikes is valuable?). it is not on the same level of pokemon such as simisear
other things i think should happen: carracosta to a, ursaring + ninetales from a to a-, simisage to a-, mr. mime to a-
I agree with most of TRC's noms, but I'll talk about the ones I don't agree with.
+1 252+ Atk Arbok Aqua Tail vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 108-128 (46.7 - 55.4%) -- 72.7% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Arbok: 118-141 (45.2 - 54%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Arbok: 97-115 (37.1 - 44%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Obviously if Arbok is weakened, Pawniard can beat Arbok at the expense of taking a lot of damage and having to win 50/50s with Sucker Punch. The point I'm trying to make is that you aren't forced to choose between Earthquake or Aqua Tail in order to beat Piloswine/Pawniard. Also on your point about it being weak to all hazards, it absorbs T-Spikes, which is amazing in this meta, and is neutral to rocks, so I don't see the point here ?_? Overall, between Coil, a really strong STAB in Gunk Shot, good coverage in Aqua Tail and Earthquake, and priority in Sucker Punch, I think Arbok should stay where it is.
Now, I'd like to make a nom of my own.
--> A+
Stoutland was nommed for S earlier, which I don't agree with, but I definitely think this thing's presence in the current meta has shown that it should be A+. Between its extremely spammable main STAB in Frustration/Return and Facade to discourage burning/poisoning this thing and its coverage in Superpower along with Scrappy, this thing is almost impossible to switch into. Some of the few reliable switches into it I could think of off the top of my head that can possibly switch in multiple times are Solrock, Carbink, Wormadam-Trash (lol), and physically defensive Avalugg. Solrock is the only real decent one in this meta, and its honestly not even that great, as it loses to both S-ranks, while Carbink is really only good on stall or sun, the first of which is bad, the second of which, its job is done better by Onix. Wormadam trash is, well, trash, and it shouldn't ever be used, and physically defensive Avalugg (or Avalugg in general) honestly isn't good in this current meta. It has great bulk as well, meaning you can't just easily come in and revenge kill it with a fast Pokemon such as Zebstrika or Rapidash and it can usually take a hit and pick up a free kill. It also has a good typing that makes it extremely easy to just throw on a team and still have it synergize pretty well. I honestly don't know why this hasn't been moved up yet, but I feel like now is the time.
Though Rapidash definitely isn't the strongest thing in the tier by far and it is weak to rocks, I don't think that's a reason for it to move down whatsoever. Its amazing coverage and good speed tier allows it to take on so much of the meta and a decent Speed tier to boot. There are few things that outspeed it, all of which can't switch into it whatsoever, and with your own Stealth Rocks up, Rapidash is able to 2HKO a large portion of the meta and tear through balance and offense (to an extent).
I completely disagree with this nom, as I feel like Arbok has gotten better in this meta. If the player using Arbok is smart enough, they won't switch Arbok directly into an obvious Sleep Powder or Thunder Wave, and once Arbok has gotten in safely against something that doesn't completely destroy it and gets up a Coil, it's able to take on a ton of common mons in the current meta. You say that Aqua Tail is forced to be run to beat Piloswine, but you then lose to Pawniard, which isn't true whatsoever. Assuming Pawniard is switching in as Arbok Coils (since you wouldn't switch an Arbok into a Pawniard), Arbok can 2HKO Pawniard with Aqua Tail while Pawniard isn't even able to 2HKO Arbok at +1 Defense with Knock Off + Sucker Punch.
+1 252+ Atk Arbok Aqua Tail vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 108-128 (46.7 - 55.4%) -- 72.7% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Arbok: 118-141 (45.2 - 54%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Arbok: 97-115 (37.1 - 44%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Obviously if Arbok is weakened, Pawniard can beat Arbok at the expense of taking a lot of damage and having to win 50/50s with Sucker Punch. The point I'm trying to make is that you aren't forced to choose between Earthquake or Aqua Tail in order to beat Piloswine/Pawniard. Also on your point about it being weak to all hazards, it absorbs T-Spikes, which is amazing in this meta, and is neutral to rocks, so I don't see the point here ?_? Overall, between Coil, a really strong STAB in Gunk Shot, good coverage in Aqua Tail and Earthquake, and priority in Sucker Punch, I think Arbok should stay where it is.
Now, I'd like to make a nom of my own.
Stoutland was nommed for S earlier, which I don't agree with, but I definitely think this thing's presence in the current meta has shown that it should be A+. Between its extremely spammable main STAB in Frustration/Return and Facade to discourage burning/poisoning this thing and its coverage in Superpower along with Scrappy, this thing is almost impossible to switch into. Some of the few reliable switches into it I could think of off the top of my head that can possibly switch in multiple times are Solrock, Carbink, Wormadam-Trash (lol), and physically defensive Avalugg. Solrock is the only real decent one in this meta, and its honestly not even that great, as it loses to both S-ranks, while Carbink is really only good on stall or sun, the first of which is bad, the second of which, its job is done better by Onix. Wormadam trash is, well, trash, and it shouldn't ever be used, and physically defensive Avalugg (or Avalugg in general) honestly isn't good in this current meta. It has great bulk as well, meaning you can't just easily come in and revenge kill it with a fast Pokemon such as Zebstrika or Rapidash and it can usually take a hit and pick up a free kill. It also has a good typing that makes it extremely easy to just throw on a team and still have it synergize pretty well. I honestly don't know why this hasn't been moved up yet, but I feel like now is the time.
While I agree that Zebstrika struggles with clefairy, roselia, and piloswine, I believe it's still viable enough to be an A+ mon.
First of all, I think Hidden Power Ice is better for Zebstrika now because without it, Vibrava and Gabite eat Zebby up. What does HP Grass help Zebby hit? Basically Golem, Carracosta and Barbaracle, but Carracosta and Barbaracle both die from T-Bolt, and Golem doesn't want to switch into an HP Ice. I guess you could hit Piloswine super effectively with HP Grass if you wanted too, but it wouldn't kill Piloswine or anything. HP Ice on the other hand can help you hit both Vibrava and Gabite. Neither Vibrava or Gabite can switch in to an HP Ice and expect to make a move afterwards as both are 2HKO'd.
You mention that if Zebby acts as a pivot with Volt Switch, that it will die too quickly because of hazards and life orb recoil. I'm not going to disagree that Zebby dies quickly if used this way, I'm going to disagree with using Zebstrika as a pivot. Zebby is used best as a revenge killer against threats like Simipour, Poliwrath, Simisage etc. As a pivot, yes, it wears down quickly, but it does its job as a revenge killer and can kill weakened threats as well as a S rank mon at full health.
So, while Zebstrika is definitely not the 3rd most viable mon in the tier anymore, it is still worthy of being ranked A+ because of Hidden Power Ice, the ability to deal pivot damage (although using Zebby as a dedicated pivot is not recommended), and its viability as a revenge killer.
Calcs against HP Grass:
252 SpA Life Orb Zebstrika Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Golem: 177-208 (58.8 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Zebstrika Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Solid Rock Carracosta: 294-347 (83.5 - 98.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Zebstrika Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Solid Rock Carracosta: 230-271 (65.3 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Zebstrika Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Barbaracle: 315-374 (110.1 - 130.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Zebstrika Volt Switch vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Barbaracle: 244-291 (85.3 - 101.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Zebstrika Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Piloswine: 125-148 (30.9 - 36.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Calcs for HP Ice:
252 SpA Life Orb Zebstrika Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Vibrava: 177-213 (58.2 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Zebstrika Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Gabite: 265-317 (78.1 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Zebstrika Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Fraxure: 143-169 (52.3 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Revenge Killer
252 SpA Life Orb Zebstrika Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Simipour: 400-476 (136.9 - 163%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Zebstrika Thunderbolt vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Poliwrath: 304-359 (81.9 - 96.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Zebstrika Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Simisage: 387-458 (132.9 - 157.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Zebstrika Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Golem: 177-208 (58.8 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Zebstrika Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Solid Rock Carracosta: 294-347 (83.5 - 98.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Zebstrika Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Solid Rock Carracosta: 230-271 (65.3 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Zebstrika Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Barbaracle: 315-374 (110.1 - 130.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Zebstrika Volt Switch vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Barbaracle: 244-291 (85.3 - 101.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Zebstrika Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Piloswine: 125-148 (30.9 - 36.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Calcs for HP Ice:
252 SpA Life Orb Zebstrika Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Vibrava: 177-213 (58.2 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Zebstrika Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Gabite: 265-317 (78.1 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Zebstrika Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Fraxure: 143-169 (52.3 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Revenge Killer
252 SpA Life Orb Zebstrika Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Simipour: 400-476 (136.9 - 163%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Zebstrika Thunderbolt vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Poliwrath: 304-359 (81.9 - 96.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Zebstrika Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Simisage: 387-458 (132.9 - 157.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Golem A- --> B+
Pretty much every team has a hard counter and some checks. Tangela and Torterra and Leafeon and Gogoat and Rose and wrath and pilo and gourgeist... it's easy to have a hard stop to golem. Outside of that, it's stupid easy to OHKO without sturdy and generally doesnt perform too great anymore. Especially since dank/clef is on every team. If this doesnt drop, at least don't make this the top A- mon, but this thing has really been declining lately.
edit: wrote this pretty poorly, advocating drop because every team has a 100% counter unless its HO and its fairly easy to OHKO without sturdy which in practice goes away fast unless you use it as a dedicated lead in my experience, and that has its own problems
Pretty much every team has a hard counter and some checks. Tangela and Torterra and Leafeon and Gogoat and Rose and wrath and pilo and gourgeist... it's easy to have a hard stop to golem. Outside of that, it's stupid easy to OHKO without sturdy and generally doesnt perform too great anymore. Especially since dank/clef is on every team. If this doesnt drop, at least don't make this the top A- mon, but this thing has really been declining lately.
edit: wrote this pretty poorly, advocating drop because every team has a 100% counter unless its HO and its fairly easy to OHKO without sturdy which in practice goes away fast unless you use it as a dedicated lead in my experience, and that has its own problems
Pelipper A- --> B+
The metagame is way more harsher to Pelipper than it was in the past. Being one of the few Defog users remaining doesn't justify it being in the rank of Pokemon such as Clefairy, Misdreavus, and Stunfisk. The main problem with Pelipper nowadays is that it is really easy to pressure because of its weakness to Stealth Rock and subpar offensive presence(offensive sets are outdone by Swanna anyway), which allow common Pokemon such as Stoutland, and other balance breakers such as Simisage, which is rising on popularity, to heavily take advantage of it. Pelipper also can't safely check Pokemon it is meant to deal with such as Simipour and Poliwrath, without risking to get crippled, as the first can run coverage moves such as Hidden Power Electric which deal massive damage, or can remove its Leftovers with Knock Off, making it even easier to pressure. Regarding Poliwrath, Pelipper has to carry Air Slash to KO it, otherwise it will struggle even against sets such as SubPunch. Talking about the Special Tank set, Pelipper has pray to not get burned by Scald or otherwise it will get hindered by burn, which is even worse than getting Leftovers knocked off. These are just to examples to show how Pelipper can be unreliable at times, though it still remains the best Defog user in the tier because of its combination of decent bulk, recovery, and utility moves such as Scald and U-Turn to grab momentum, so still worth of a B+ rank.