Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[teamsnickers]

Im going to nom Thundurus down from A plus to A...
This thing really does not take kindly to Oras, besides not being weak to ground raikou does everything thundey does with more bulk. Honestly rn thundurus biggest thing keeping it in a plus CONSIDERATION in prankster twave which is a great thing for any team with all the insanely fast mons all over oras.... But Thundurus just has so many flaws that imo push it out of A,its sr weak,weavile weak,frail, and its 111 speed while great for the latias/latios of the world is not going to sweep any HO teams, its LO set weakens its fast and its leftes set can sometimes feel weak, Thundey is just not on the same level as keldeo,heatran,mega scizor and others that are in A plus

 

[Alfalfa]

Im going to nom Thundurus down from A plus to A...
This thing really does not take kindly to Oras, besides not being weak to ground raikou does everything thundey does with more bulk. Honestly rn thundurus biggest thing keeping it in a plus CONSIDERATION in prankster twave which is a great thing for any team with all the insanely fast mons all over oras.... But Thundurus just has so many flaws that imo push it out of A,its sr weak,weavile weak,frail, and its 111 speed while great for the latias/latios of the world is not going to sweep any HO teams, its LO set weakens its fast and its leftes set can sometimes feel weak, Thundey is just not on the same level as keldeo,heatran,mega scizor and others that are in A plus

Thundurus isn't supposed to sweep Hyper Offense. It is meant to use Nasty Plot to break down bulkier teams that aren't stall. Prankster Thunder Wave is quite over-hyped and is only really used in an emergency situation since Thundurus is very easy to KO. If you want to use Prankster Thunder Wave consistently, then you would want Klefki, since it annoys a lot of top threats through sheer utility and typing.

 

[Vert]

just came back from vacation to read 8 pages of noiceness

magnezone is 100% a- rank worthy simply because the metagame is shifting towards mons that get walled by steels. mscizor are ever so common and this reflects a response to weavile for example. m-alt is basically at its peak performance in this stage and being able to strip all its counters is godly and makes defensive dragon dance so much viable especially when you account no one use amoonguss and poison-types that much in general considering the surge in psychics like zam and especially tornadus-t. oops looks like a slippery slope fallacy but these all come back to zone as pros. other mons that turn into lethal weapons are m-diancie, m-zam, your own weavile, m-gross, azumarill,...electric stab is legit right now considering keldeo's darker days are over because weavile surged. zone easily grabs momentum on this and other waters. steel stab is what differentiates itself from raikou cuz it goes h.a.m. on things like kyurem-b and hippo. let's not talk about its great typing too to check top tier threats and fits excellently in offensive cores. a- pls

 

[Lord Xen III]

Im going to nom Thundurus down from A plus to A...
This thing really does not take kindly to Oras, besides not being weak to ground raikou does everything thundey does with more bulk. Honestly rn thundurus biggest thing keeping it in a plus CONSIDERATION in prankster twave which is a great thing for any team with all the insanely fast mons all over oras.... But Thundurus just has so many flaws that imo push it out of A,its sr weak,weavile weak,frail, and its 111 speed while great for the latias/latios of the world is not going to sweep any HO teams, its LO set weakens its fast and its leftes set can sometimes feel weak, Thundey is just not on the same level as keldeo,heatran,mega scizor and others that are in A plus

Thundy is perfectly fine in A +. And thundy has a lot more over raikou than that lol. Thundurus has a way better move pool with options like Nasty plot sludge wave, knock off, superpower, focus blast , grass knot , and psychic giving it loads of options for dealing with checks, and it can even run a mixed attacking defiant set. Prankster T wave is pretty huge because it is an effective means for speed control while also crippling opposing mons which is absolutely a HUGE niche and arguably thundy's best trait over the other electric types, so it at least isn't setup fodder for zard X unlike raikou. Those are more than enough to keep it a *minimum* of two sub ranks above raikou. I wouldn't say thundurus is weavile weak as weavile doesnt switch in. But yes weavile is an annoyance for thundurus on the revenge kill but it has a chance to live its ice shard especially if rocks arent up.


252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 218-257 (72.9 - 85.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Thundy certainly is a tier above most of those mons in A who are much more linear in their approach to threats and roadblocks. In comparing thundy to keldeo and scizor, i mean not even a good comparison considering that keldeo's check list in the current meta is much larger than thundurus given that keldeo has to rely on weak hidden power moves unlike thundy to get by most of its switchins which in many cases dont even 2hko even with specs. Mega scizor sacks a lot of momentum against common staples at this point such as talon flame zard x and bulky chomp to name a few with out being able to do much about it due to the lack of versatility in its move pool like thundy has. So even on that merit thundurus is on the same level overall as those where comparable .Those other traits like being susceptible to LO stall , SR, are good reasons why it wouldnt be S but even then it didn't stop it from being S before during XY. The main issue with thundurus is that oras added yet another speed creep and also a lot more dangerous offensive threats like mega lopunny who can pick off a weakened thundy with fake out before it can t wave, the rise in popularity of mega zam who can sub or taunt to stop the prankster t wave, rock polish diancie doesnt care about t wave, heal bell mega altaria can shrug off a t wave , mega sceptile who has lightning rod, and then its not as effective against many rain offense builds thanks to mega swampert. Then on balance it can struggle vs mega venu and such without the niche psychic. But thundy is more than qualified for A +.

Thundurus isn't supposed to sweep Hyper Offense. It is meant to use Nasty Plot to break down bulkier teams that aren't stall. Prankster Thunder Wave is quite over-hyped and is only really used in an emergency situation since Thundurus is very easy to KO. If you want to use Prankster Thunder Wave consistently, then you would want Klefki, since it annoys a lot of top threats through sheer utility and typing.

I wouldnt say prankster t wave is overhyped considering that even though thundy will likely be knocked out afterward, its effectively removed a threat from play for the team to clean up who would otherwise get swept by said threat (cough cough zard x) . So it single handedly provides threat control for its team in many situations emergency or not. Klefki isn't even comparable to thundurus other than they both have prankster t wave. Nasty plot definitely can break down stall builds as well as something like sub nasty plot can easily go to town, the only real problem is quagsire which gets bopped by grass knot on other stall breaking sets.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

just came back from vacation to read 8 pages of noiceness

magnezone is 100% a- rank worthy simply because the metagame is shifting towards mons that get walled by steels. mscizor are ever so common and this reflects a response to weavile for example. m-alt is basically at its peak performance in this stage and being able to strip all its counters is godly and makes defensive dragon dance so much viable especially when you account no one use amoonguss and poison-types that much in general considering the surge in psychics like zam and especially tornadus-t. oops looks like a slippery slope fallacy but these all come back to zone as pros. other mons that turn into lethal weapons are m-diancie, m-zam, your own weavile, m-gross, azumarill,...electric stab is legit right now considering keldeo's darker days are over because weavile surged. zone easily grabs momentum on this and other waters. steel stab is what differentiates itself from raikou cuz it goes h.a.m. on things like kyurem-b and hippo. let's not talk about its great typing too to check top tier threats and fits excellently in offensive cores. a- pls

I'm just going to say here that Magnezone doesn't exactly easily grab momentum on Keldeo because it doesn't exactly want to take a Secret Sword, also not that it matters to much but DDD also has to deal with, although I hve to agree that Magnezone should move up to A-

 

[AM]

Small Update:

Kyurem-B: A- > A
Magnezone: B+ > A-

I moved these. Some new discussion points to keep you guys going.

[7/5/15, 8:29:38 PM] Henry: can I just find some things to nom before I leave for like a month
[7/5/15, 8:29:46 PM] Henry: :e did you do mag yet
[7/5/15, 8:38:26 PM] AM: I'll raise them both in a bit
[7/5/15, 8:38:29 PM] AM: kyurem and mag
[7/5/15, 8:38:40 PM] AM: also yeah henry mention whatever
[7/5/15, 8:47:13 PM] Henry: oke
[7/5/15, 8:49:11 PM] Henry: rotom to a- serp to a gatr to b+ reun to B ferro to A+ galge to B nape to c+ lol keld to s
[7/5/15, 8:49:56 PM] AM: I don't like ferro in A+ too many mags and chars x_x
[7/5/15, 8:50:01 PM] Henry: I still think nape is a shitmon
[7/5/15, 8:50:05 PM] AM: rotom to a- is fine
[7/5/15, 8:50:07 PM] Henry: idk man it still dominates
[7/5/15, 8:50:16 PM] AM: uh
[7/5/15, 8:50:25 PM] AM: reuni in B I get
[7/5/15, 8:50:29 PM] AM: gatr no comment
[7/5/15, 8:50:40 PM] AM: serp I think is the best mon in A- but idk about A
[7/5/15, 8:50:49 PM] AM: no comment on galge havent used it in awhile
[7/5/15, 8:51:01 PM] AM: infernape I think is fine it's still a defensive check to a bunch of stupid shit
[7/5/15, 8:51:26 PM] AM: Keld no comment although I think it has a better case than most of the stuff being nommed to S lately
[7/5/15, 8:51:54 PM] Henry: cool I guess we should see what
[7/5/15, 8:51:57 PM] Henry: every1 else thinks

There you have it.

Subject 18 Edit: Mega Metagross to A+ is also a point of discussion at this point in time.

 

[QuickBH]

Just a quick comment to that Infernape to C+ thing; no. I honestly think we've made a case good enough for Infernape to go for B but no way is all the effort put in to get the guy out of C+ going to get wasted when Infernape has been clearly proving to become more successful consistently on teams compared to the Pokemon on C+.

I wasn't 100% sure if you were shutting that down in the conversation with Henry or not, so I'm just making sure.

 

[Srn]

Nah weavile/scizor too prevalent to let a hard counter to both and more let go. Nape is waaay above alomo and magneton lmao. It can do some other cool stuff too, like wisp gyara's thinking that they can set up for free.

Rotom-w to a- i agree with henry it dominates, and with sand balance on 70% of wcop teams i'm seeing idk why it would be dropping.

reun should go as high as the council is ok with honestly cm is so underprepared for. It beats opposing cm users itself with psyshock and even TR is viable. Basically it's a rly underrated and gud mon :]

Serp should not be a rank above mew and volc, its on par with them. Coverage is ass and checks/revenge killers are pretty common (talon, torn-t, amoong, venu, weav). Every playstyle can pretty comfortably fit in a solid check, it shouldnt rise.

gatr i'm fine with in B+ i can see it on the level of mega medi and hydreigon. its nice when paired with other waters and its strong and its not too frail. 78 base speed is pretty gud too.

Ferro shouldn't be A+ lots of zards and zones and hp fire kyu-b's and hp fire manaphy's etc etc meta is too mean to it.

galge has lots of natural power and a nice typing, but most importantly its pretty much the best and only tspike user (fuk tenta). its bulk lets it be an electric/char-y check too, its not a bad mon. But i just dont see it on par with threats in B+, im for a drop.

Keld to S im against, (always have been). I think its pretty one-dimensional and easy to check. What's most important about it is that its bulk+offenses gives some backbone and checks tons of stuff offense would otherwise lose to, like bish and zor and weavile. offense rly rly likes this. But i still think its too easy to handle, an S rank mon imo shouldn't have a hard check on every single team it goes up against. It doesn't exactly outlast its counters either (no recovery, susceptible to spikes), and it requires lots of free switches and luck to break thru its checks (so I don't rly consider that an argument.) It should just stay A+.

 

[Froggyboy]

Nah if Skarm's A, Rotom is A imo. It is a blanket check to so many shit it's not even funny. Zard-X, Keldeo, Azumarill, Lando, Gyarados, Talonflame, Tornadus, Starmie, Aero, Pinsir, Raikou, Manectric, and that's just from the S to A-. Pain Split, while sometimes unreliable, provides it with some recovery, and thanks to 105(iirc) SpA, it is still hitting hard with Hydro and it can pivot out with Volt, making it hard to set up against.

No.
Infernape is my favorite Pokemon, so I may be a bit biased, but I'm still going to comment. Infernape is one of the more reliable Bisharp, Weavile, and Scizor checks/counters thanks to it having Slack Off, meaning it can stay healthy in the battle and still take them on throughout, unlike Pokemon like Heatran and Garchomp who can get worn down throughout the match and eventually beaten. And unlike what AM says, its offensive sets are also pretty good, so it is B- at the least.

I haven't really used it much, but I'll try to seem intelligent. While at +2 it hits really hard, but Leaf Storm's 8 PP can be pretty bad in long battles, and its reliance on Hidden Power for coverage kinda holds it back. A- imo.

Not really getting this, Reuniclus is very threatening with the fact that once it is set-up, unless you have a Dark type it is very hard to take down. The combination of Magic Guard+Recover makes wittling it down in stall wars difficult. Plus being able to set-up in Megagross' face is something that's basically limited to it, so B+ is definitely fair.

I don't mean to sound like someone you would find in the OU room, but I can't agree with this. While it is a blanket check to a lot of things, a lack of offensive pressure, combined with the lot of Fire and Fighting coverage in the meta, means that is just balanced and thus should stay in A.

I can get behind this, Sub+CM is cool, specs is really hard to switch into, Scarf is underrated and a cool revenge killer. Didn't agree with the movedown in the first place, so it going back to S is something I agree with.

 

[henry]

i guess ill "defend" my nominations a bit before i go. the elitist council people never post here for a reason xD

rotom-w should be moved down to a- because the most prominent of which it checks in talonflame and tornt both have the ability to easily wear it down with status, knocking off its item as well as seamless switch momentum. it hasnt deserved its rank in a long time. also, rotom doesnt check a single electric type in OU so no clue where that comes from. it also doesnt check keldeo. a- isnt some rank that condemns it to mediocrity its still an annoying pkmn with great resistances and a cool dual stab, but "skarm is A so should rotom" is wrong because skarm can check an insane range of pkmn by tailoring its ev spread which rotom can't adequately do, in addition to skarm having hazard removal, spikes, sr, phazing potential etc.

i dont care if infernape is your favorite pokemon. the meteoric rise of its tank set doesnt change the fact that the set itself is insanely niche and can only adequately check a small amount of pokemon, most notably of which weavile and scizor which is very useful, but nape itself is still insanely frail even if you forgo speed evs which makes it way less useful. having to choose between its fire stab and fighting stab as an attack fucking sucks. OU wasn't short on scizor checks before this set gained popularity, and i promise you weavile isnt threatening enough to literally ever use this pokemon for that purpose only, which most people seem to think is why it deserves b-.

i dont think there's been much dispute about how threatening serperior has become. it's a chore to check with its ability to overpower its checks with repeated boosts from spamming a base 130 stab attack, glare that lets it cripple its counters, and lures with different berries/ hidden powers that can invalidate a team's specific check to it

reuniclus is probably one of the most overrated pokemon on the viability list rn bar infernape and idk where people are getting the "insane threat" thing from. reuniclus is unbelievably passive and has an extremely difficult time getting up a calm mind against any team that isnt bulky balance/stall, and having a cm clefable check can often function as a blanket reuniclus counter in itself (bisharp, jirachi, manaphy). to put it bluntly, in many matchups reuniclus "just dies" (http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-32950 good example old but still relevant) whether it walls certain pokemon or not, and doesnt have the luxury of other cm users like suicune also in B+ that only needs one attack to function properly

i understand why the ferro nomination isnt popular with the influx of magnezone (that i nommed originally lol) and zards but ferrothorn still has the movepool and set variety to force things like magnezone to tread lightly with shed shell (fuck you its viable) and the ever present twave on zard switches/ greedy dds. its insanely difficult to kill and play around, with leech seed, knock off, hazard, and its dual stabs having actual offensive presence unlike many pkmn as bulky and difficult to kill as ferrothorn. i know win% are often not great indications but ferro won over 2/3 of its matchups in wcop to date not including mirror matches while the insane influx of zard and magnezone occured right in front of it. very very few pokemon can 1v1 it and the team support it provides with the variety in its movepool is still overlooked and essentially unmatched.

i never agreed with keldeo dropping to A+ and i decided to wait and see how the meta develops, and keldeo is still amazing. keldeo+scald is the literal only reason im unsure of whether scald should be banned and is almost always a free move to fire off on its counters. specs is unbelievably difficult to switch into, and coupled with a burn and the increased usage of spikes can often let keldeo overpower its counters after just 2-3 switch ins. scarf is very threatening to offense, and sets like rest talk LO can function as great offensive counters to pokemon like bisharp, weavile and scizor over long periods of time. sub cm can completely throw off an opposing team's momentum and make it even easier for keld to fish for free burns against its counters

 

[Adaam]

Nah if Skarm's A, Rotom is A imo. It is a blanket check to so many shit it's not even funny. Zard-X, Keldeo, Azumarill, Lando, Gyarados, Talonflame, Tornadus, Starmie, Aero, Pinsir, Raikou, Manectric, and that's just from the S to A-. Pain Split, while sometimes unreliable, provides it with some recovery, and thanks to 105(iirc) SpA, it is still hitting hard with Hydro and it can pivot out with Volt, making it hard to set up against.

Not sure how Skarm and Rotom-W are similar except for the fact that they both resist Flying types. As Henry said Skarm not only provides insane utility and blanket checks so many more things than Rotom, but it has much better recovery in Roost instead of garbage Pain Split. Also half the mons you listed are in no way checked by Rotom. Zard X obliterates it with Dragon STAB. Keldeo obliterates it with SS. Azumarill gets wisped by Rotom can't switch in as it gets obliterated by Play Rough. Gyarados destroys it if Mega + EQ. Rotom can't take back to back Stone Edges. Raikou and Manectric can't be touched by rotom since they just Volt Switch out if Rotom isn't in KO range.

 

[pika pal]

I personally don't think Infernape should go down. The defensive set is a valuable asset to more defensive/balanced teams for covering the noted threats (Bisharp, Weavile, Scizors) while spreading burns and offering okay power with its STABs and spreading fast burns. Might not be particularly bulky, but Burns offset that and it's usually being brought in on Resisted hits anyway, which it can take okay.

And while not quite as effective, his mixed Wallbreaker sets still manage to threaten a pretty good number of defensive mons and cores thanks to high power and pretty good coverage. And while below the offensive "standard", 108 speed is more than acceptable speed.



To maintain Infernape's ranking, I'd like to compare it to Conkelduur, also in B-, for the latter's SF LO Wallbreaking set (which I believe most consider his best set in the current Meta). First and foremost, Infernape's speed is significantly higher, compared to Conk even being outsped by most walls, which means the latter wants to avoid as many 2HKO's vs 3HKO's and such. Infernape is also immune to burns (Wallbreaker Conk runs SF to power up the Elemental Punches and for LO), which makes it harder to neuter for defensive teams.

Conkeldurr has much higher Attack, but this is offset by the difference in their moves' BP (Almost all of Infernape's primary moves, STABs included, break 110 BP naturally) even after Conk's SF boost. Mixed potential makes Infernape harder to wall just from the use of two offensive Spectrums.

Conk is bulkier, which is a legitimate advantage, but this is also a bit offset by his greater likelihood to be hit in the first place.


I unfortunately lack a comparison for the defensive set, but I hope I've made a good enough case for the Wallbreaker at least. It's not even like Infernape's current rank is particularly high like rapid rises Serperior's been nommed for before being kept at A- (for now at least). I can see the case not to rise, but I don't think the current Meta pushes Infernape to drop.

Keep Infernape in B-.

 

[Albacore]

IMO Ferrothorn is just way too easy to wear down, lure, and overwhelm to be anywhere near A+ rank. The statement that "very few Pokemon can 1v1 it" is completely untrue imo, just looking through the S and A+ ranks, you have XZard, Fire Blast Altaria, Flamethrower Clefable, SD Bisharp, Fire Blast or SD Garchomp, Heatran, Keldeo, Lopunny (I guess it can lose to Protect but that isn't used too much on Ferro since it really wants both STABs nowadays), MSab, MZor, Talonflame, and Thundurus. Heck, MMeta can even 1v1 non-Protect variants as long as they aren't running too much of a physically defensive spread. So that's around 50% of the higher ranked Pokemon which can handle Ferrothorn relatively easily, and that's not even counting less commonbut still relevant stuff like HP Fire Latios, Heat Wave Torn-T and HP Fire manaphy (which does 1v1 Ferro, PWhip doesn't OHKO from full while +3 HP Fire does.

Most setup sweepers can overpower it, I guess it can run TWave but that's usually pretty hard to fit and usually not worth it. It's not the most passive Pokemon ever, but it's still pretty damn passive and easy to take advantage of, and its lack of reliable recovery makes it an unreliable wall. I really don't see it on the same level as any A+, I'm not even sure it's as good as Skarm or Gliscor tbh since both have an easier time saying alive throught the course of a battle.


Don't really have time to comment on the other noms, but I have something to say about this replay :

to put it bluntly, in many matchups reuniclus "just dies" (http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-32950 good example old but still relevant) whether it walls certain pokemon or not, and doesnt have the luxury of other cm users like suicune also in B+ that only needs one attack to function properly

I honestly don't think it does a good job at discrediting Reuniclus at all, since all it really proves is that it can't switch into Diancie which obviously it can't do (also the Reuni user won so it's not like he lost becuase of it or anything), and Reuni did actually do something in that battle, namely switch into Toxicroak; I'm sure you can find much better examples of Reuni doing nothing so idk why that particular replay was chosen.

"There are some matchups where it doesn't do much" is a pretty poor argument imo when you can apply that to literally any Pokemon, for example I can take the exact same replay and say Volcarona was useless during that battle, and indeed there are matchups where Volcarona struggles to do anything, but that doesn't mean it's bad.

Heck, I'd argue that the replay demonstrates Suicune's mediocrity far more than that of Reuniclus, since not only did it do nothing during that battle besides act as a one-time switch into Diancie and death fodder, but it wasn't even able to wall what it was supposed to wall becuase of its reliance on Rest, making it unable to recover in time (since that would just make it vulnerable and reliant on Sleep Talk rolls), and therefore unable to switch into Lando-T and Diancie, 2 Pokemon it beats in theory but often fails to in practice. So if you're trying to prove that Reuniclus is worse than Suicune, this isn't the best replay to help your case lol.

 

[Magcargo]

Gastrodon should move up to B rank. Out of all the Electric type counters out there, Gastrodon is arguably the best due to its combination of its Volt Switch immunity and Ice Neutrality, access to reliable recovery, and its above average Special Defense. Not only that, but Gastrodon is also an excellent blanket check to a large portion of the metagame, including things such as Heatran, Keldeo, Starmie, and, to a lesser extent, things such as Diancie, Metagross, and Charizard X in 1v1 situations. Its typing is so great in the current metagame since it grants it an immunity to both Scald and Volt Switch, resistances to a plethora of moves and SR, and only one weakness.

 

[Eraxxer]

Rotom-W to A- : Disagree
Rotom is definitely a great Pokemon and it can check so much stuff it's ridiculous, but it is often incredibly stretched for moves, Pain Split is trash, and it's setup fodder. The reason I think it should stay in A is that dual status T-wave Rotom is incredible at the moment. Zard X, Clef, Latis, Zam, Volc and AV Torn-T are a few things that are running around a lot that think they can switch in/set up on Rotom and all are crippled and stopped by T-Wave and for now I think this should keep Rotom in A.

Reuinclus to B : Agree
Reuni is pretty overrated. It's got ass for speed and while it sets up on incredibly fat Pokemon it struggles a lot against offense or whenever it needs to be able to live multiple hits to set up, because its unboosted attacks are really weak.

Feraligatr to B+ : Agree
Having used Feraligatr in OU extensively, I can safely say that it's ridiculously good. It pairs with Mega Venusaur insanely well and the pair can pretty much break teams by themselves. It does have 4MSS though (I know a lot of people get mad over using the term 4MSS incorrectly but I'm fairly sure this is the correct usage as Gatr needs to choose between Jet, Superpower, Ice Punch, Crunch for its final 2 moves) which hinders it a bit, and the ever present Rotom is a fairly decent check to any set so I'm not deadset on a raise but I'm definitely leaning towards one.

Infernape to C+ : Disagree
Nape is a jack of all trades, master of none, but it's got heaps of viable sets and can easily run heaps of lures. Fire/Fighting is a great STAB combo, defensive set is having its ups and downs in the current meta with Weavile everywhere but Torn pretty common as well.

Keldeo to S : Disagree
I personally think Keldeo is pretty overrated when people say it's one of the best A+ Pokemon. It's just checked by so much. Torn, Latis, Reuni, Venu, Zam, Altaria, Azu, Talonflame, Serp, MMeta, MDiancie, Starmie, Celebi, Gard, Gallade, Goth, Mane, Raikou, Thund, Galge, Pidgeot, Gastro, Seismitoed are all checks or counters, some are beaten by scarf or lure moves like HP Bug but generally speaking Keld is beaten by them. The clamor over Scald being too good isn't that good of an argument when its two best counters in pretty much any situation, Celebi and Starmie, don't care about burn, and a lot of other checks don't either. SubCM isn't amazing - it has no coverage moves for most Pokemon that can proceed to easily counter it. In teambuilding you never really worry about Keldeo specifically, you just end up with something that stops it anyway because Keldeo checks are so common.

I don't really have an opinion on Dragalge, Serp or Ferro.

 

[dice]

rotom-w is so shitty compared to legit every other top water type. its niche as a flying type check is hardly relevant given that the most threatening one in xy (pinsir) is practically nonexistent. it's not really hard to find another check to torn-t / talon check given that they aren't particularly offensive behemoths..... keldeo / slowbro / manaphy all have better defensive niches or offensive potency and rotom-w should def be moved down.

also

In teambuilding you never really worry about Keldeo specifically, you just end up with something that stops it anyway because Keldeo checks are so common.

hahahaha that's a real fucking gem

god bless

 

[Kingler]

in 100% agreement for keldeo to S and rotom-w to move down, rotom-w is an annoying pivot but it's really overrated especially since it can't even check stuff like keldeo and it's vulnerable to chip from stuff like torn-t's knock off. as a bulky pivot, it just can't check stuff like bisharp, keldeo, energy ball manaphy (hell, even scald annoys it so much), etc. talonflame, one of the mons that it's mainly used for countering, can chip away at it easily with will-o-wisp and spdef doesn't even take too much from hpump (it can't just volt switch to gain momentum).

I never really understood the Keldeo drop cus it's just so incredibly strong. Tornadus-T and Mega Venu get chipped away at incredibly easily by scald burns and torn-t doesn't really like taking an icy wind anyway. It's a good offensive check to stuff like Bisharp, Mega Gyara etc. and is defs defining enough to be S (i'd say more than clef but w/e)

 

[GlassVeins]

Was going to say this earlier to SRN, but when on earth did keldo get nommed to S? I don't recall ever seeing a single post for it, tbh.
Just so I'm not infracted or something, I think rotom-w is absolutely overrated. Sure, its a great glue mon, but the recent trends in the meta haven't helped it.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Was going to say this earlier to SRN, but when on earth did keldo get nommed to S? I don't recall ever seeing a single post for it, tbh.
Just so I'm not infracted or something, I think rotom-w is absolutely overrated. Sure, its a great glue mon, but the recent trends in the meta haven't helped it.

It was nommed back in XY, and ended up becoming S, only to drop just recently. Honestly, I see the argument for Keld to both stay A+ and go to S. Thing is, Keld is not only easy to use, but it also hits hard as shit, specs, scarf, SubCM, doesn't matter, it hits hard. Keld has access to arguably the best move in the game scald, that is a HUGE part of what makes Keldeo so difficult to deal with. You do have checks, that is obvious, but counters, quite simply, don't come in very high numbers. The things that can switch in, do not like Scald burns at all. And the two things that don't mind it, get rocked by HP Bug, which it does carry if it needs to. It's near impossible to switch in to, which means you're more likely to try and check it, which a lot of times means something is dying or you're making an extremely risky move. I'm honestly leaning towards it moving up more so than it staying A+. Every pokemon with scald in its arsenal can click scald, not all of them have Keldeo's offensive stats, speed, and respectable bulk all in one.

 

[YUNG GOAT]

Regarding Rotom dropping I disagree as it still has a niche over all the other bulky waters in that it gets both will-o-wisp and volt switch which puts pressure on the opponent as they are more reluctant to switch any physical attacker in for fear of taking a burn and while i agree that scald does the same thing i thing it is more reliable to have a point and click burn as opposed to praying that you get the 30% instead of switching to something that deals with them. Volt switch allows rotom to stack lots of residual damage and eases the need for prediction while letting it function as a really good glue for a team as its moderate bulk lets it take lots of stray hits that nothing else wants to take. And even though the late meta trends aren't in rotoms favour it is still really good at being a glue if your team has things for choiced attackers and serp.

forgot about twave which lets it catch its common switchins like char x and serp and to hit things tryna setup on the switchout.

 

[DaKakz]

also hahahaha that's a real fucking gem

god bless

I don't see what's so outrageous about what he said ? You just cannot deny that Keldeo checks come in so many forms and colors that you will almost always end up with at least one in your team without really thinking about it, it happens to me all the time, it happens to lots of people.

Of course, I'm not saying Keldeo doesn't deserve S-Rank because of this but I just think that there is nothing wrong with saying that keldeo checks are common because it's the truth. (you can hahaha at him all you want but I think he's right on that point)

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

i think he's getting at the fact that most of keldeo's checks are exploitable, either through chip damage or pursuit, so one check doesnt suffice.

 

[bludz]

I think Rotom-W should drop. Its niche in the current metagame leaves almost 0 room for versatility and it's just easily pressured with all the strong shit running around. Still a very effective pokemon but I think A- is more suited for it.

Regarding Infernape, I've heard some say that the only reason it has risen is its defensive set. If that's actually true then I'd make the argument that it should drop because that set -- while nice for checking some specific threats -- is often dead weight outside of checking those few things. I thought it rose on the merit of it having a bunch of different things it could run even if none of them are metagame breaking or anything, and if that's the case then it should stay.

Neutral on Gatr and Reuniclus - I agree Reuni is a bit overrated in some aspects but I've stated many times that I don't think Suicune should be in B+ and I really just can't see it as a sub-rank higher than what I consider to be a more threatening CM sweeper with a better ability to take advantage of.

As for Keldeo I never really thought it should have dropped so whatever happens happens but it has fantastic bulk and typing for an offensive pokemon and ends up checking so many massive threats in this metagame while still applying offensive pressure.

 

[Sochlo]

Regarding Rotom dropping I disagree as it still has a niche over all the other bulky waters in that it gets both will-o-wisp and volt switch which puts pressure on the opponent as they are more reluctant to switch any physical attacker in for fear of taking a burn and while i agree that scald does the same thing i thing it is more reliable to have a point and click burn as opposed to praying that you get the 30% instead of switching to something that deals with them. Volt switch allows rotom to stack lots of residual damage and eases the need for prediction while letting it function as a really good glue for a team as its moderate bulk lets it take lots of stray hits that nothing else wants to take. And even though the late meta trends aren't in rotoms favour it is still really good at being a glue if your team has things for choiced attackers and serp.

forgot about twave which lets it catch its common switchins like char x and serp and to hit things tryna setup on the switchout.

The question is whether or not that niche is enough to keep it A anymore.

Rotom is too often overwhelmed by the things it tries to wall because Pain Split is so shitty. Talonflame can burn it, Torn can Knock Off its Leftovers or just hit it with Hurricane if it has prior damage, no one's using Pinsir anyway, etc. So its moderate bulk does not let it "take lots of stray hits".

It's still a good glue Pokemon and fits on a lot of teams but at this point in the metagame I don't think it's up to par with the other Pokemon in A.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

I don't see what's so outrageous about what he said ? You just cannot deny that Keldeo checks come in so many forms and colors that you will almost always end up with at least one in your team without really thinking about it, it happens to me all the time, it happens to lots of people.

Of course, I'm not saying Keldeo doesn't deserve S-Rank because of this but I just think that there is nothing wrong with saying that keldeo checks are common because it's the truth. (you can hahaha at him all you want but I think he's right on that point)

He was more so pointing out that it's laughable that anyone could ever say you don't worry about keldeo when team building. Everyone worries about Keldeo, always, you have to at this point. HO doesn't necessarily "prep" for it because it's just an onslaught of attacks, but Balance DEFINITELY prepares for it. Stall, we all know tries to as well. So, what was said was just absolutely outrageous. If you're not making Hyper Offense, chances are extremely high that you have a dedicated Keldeo "switch in".