Hey, remember to update the OP to say that Dragonite is banned.
Also, what's that about a Smeargle Suspect? You never officially talked about it.
Also, what's that about a Smeargle Suspect? You never officially talked about it.
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Ladder Mix and Mega
- Thread starter Imperator Romanum
- Start date
xJownage
Even pendulums swing both ways
I updated the viability rankings at an earlier date, but ghoul king was unable to update the second post. Either way, they are very incomplete atm. I plan to have a big gathering at some point and have a rather grueling process of making up-to-date viability rankings.
thesecondbest
Just Kidding I'm First
Tbh the latter is useless. I can achieve the same spread with mega slowbro in ou with 248 spdf 248 hp rest in defense . With an additional power creep, this set is probably useless. And on avalugg, put everything in special bulk and just run impish. You have enough defense anyways.I don't play other metas much but I decided to try this one and haven't regretted it since, loads of fun :] Dumping a couple of cool sets i've been using:
Avalugg @ Venusaurite
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Avalanche
- Recover
- Earthquake
Something I use to snack on things like Dragonite (Pinsirite, Altarianite, Salamencite) and a pretty fat spinner too. Access to recover, decent offensive presence with Avalanche/EQ and an amusing mon to use on more defensive teams
Venusaurite just for all around stat boost in Att, Def and SpD and also thick fat which is pretty nice on Avalugg, lets it deal with refridgerate mons and snack on some fire type attacks too
+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 132-156 (33.5 - 39.6%) -- 19% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery - Pinsirite at +1
+1 252+ Atk Pixilate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 136-162 (34.6 - 41.2%) -- 66.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery - Altarianite at +1
0 Atk Avalugg Avalanche vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 348-410 (107.7 - 126.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO - 120 power Avalanche vs Altarianite Dragonite
EQ hits steel types and other annoying ice resists like Entei. Could probably be replaced with coverage but EQ has proved useful
Slowking @ Slowbronite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Slack Off
- Scald
- Psyshock
Fun mon to use, with slowbronite it has great physical bulk but with the good SpD that slowking already has it can take special hits a little better allowing it to set up vs more SpAers. I would show calcs but tbh calcing for Mix n Mega takes a lot of effort and it's almost 4am here o-o Pretty amusing set, deadly if played right and even if you don't set up you can spread some burns around too. Would recommend a cleric because fuck status
Feel free to make suggestions or whatever, just throwing out a couple of cool sets i've been using that I haven't really seen much of :]
e: added sprites in o-o
and sorry the immortal they won't unban anything -.-
You can indeed achieve the exact same thing with Mega Slowbro, 248 HP, 12+ Def, 248 SpD but that also takes up all of your evs so there isn't much reason to use one over the other BUT that doesn't make the set 'useless' in any way... The set has a pretty high def stat and can easily get off CMs vs things like Keldeo because it can take a focus blast pretty easily or just while it switches. On Avalugg, yes it already has insane Def w/o investment and you may be right but Avalugg isn't taking many special hits anyway unless they're a very weak SpAer in which case it can probably take the hit w/o SpD invest or you could just switch out into something else like Blissey but now that Dnite w/ stones is gone I probably will experiment with SpD or just ditching it
But Aegislash does add one thing; a defensive answer to-ate spam. It handles Lucario, Entei, dnite and Zygarde depending on its stones; Venusaurite and Latiasite.
Honestly its defensive movepool is rather lacking, so you may still be better of using normal Stance Change Aegislash, something you can use already.
I feel like Absolite should be added to Manaphy, as well as Pidgeotite to Mew. Manaphy with Absolite gets a bit of a boost in bulk, speed, a good special attack boost, and Magic Bounce. Magic Bounce Manaphy from being roared/burned/paralyzed etc. Also, Mew can run a good parafusion Pidgeotite set with Zap Cannon + Dynamicpunch, with other coverage options (due to it's amazing movepool) like Blizzard and Focus Blast.
OLD GREGG (im back baby)
old gregg for life
I think Garchomp should be higher than B, specifically the Diancite set. Here are my reasons:
Prior to mevo Chomp has 108/95/85 bulk, which can allow it to comfortably SD in some situations. Even w/o a SD its attack matches that of MMX with more base speed than Ninjask. It has two powerful Stabs that don't always need a boost to OHKO some things. The stats change from:
108/130/95/80/85/102
into
108/190/55/140/45/162
making Chomp one of the most powerful glass cannons in the tier.
It sets up on rock leads, 2HKO Ferro with EQ after one SD, immune to Will-O and Toxic unless Mold Breaker and destroys teams after priority abusers have been dealt with.
Prior to mevo Chomp has 108/95/85 bulk, which can allow it to comfortably SD in some situations. Even w/o a SD its attack matches that of MMX with more base speed than Ninjask. It has two powerful Stabs that don't always need a boost to OHKO some things. The stats change from:
108/130/95/80/85/102
into
108/190/55/140/45/162
making Chomp one of the most powerful glass cannons in the tier.
It sets up on rock leads, 2HKO Ferro with EQ after one SD, immune to Will-O and Toxic unless Mold Breaker and destroys teams after priority abusers have been dealt with.
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The problem with this set is that it can be checked easily with priority (thanks to the def/spdf drop), and there are many pokemons who actually run espeed + ate ability...Besides, it doesnt learn any decent priority moves, so it cant make the most of its ability as well. Even still, garchomp has some issues breaking through steel defensive pokemons that are immune to earthquake, such as Latiasite Heatran, certain variants of skarmory (depending on the mega evo its running, it can take several fire blasts), and so on.
I actually agree, but just so you know, absolite doesn't give any bulk. However, that is probably it's number one best set, tbh. It's power is insane, and it can muscle past anything that tries to stop it. Except maybe suicune, but then again, it has energy ball. And 140 Spe is really good, even for MnM. Few offensive threats can even reach that speed (or at least, do so and retain viability), bar dragon dancers/ agility stuff. And, just like always, it destroys balance-even worse than it usually does.
Mew, on the other hand, is just annoying. It's not bad, just super trolly. It's pretty easy to handle, especially w/ sceptilite stuff, since it's not that fast, and it lacks the power of most pidgeotite stuff.
Somethings I've thought about recently:
Gengar for S rank: this one is seems a bit excessive, but let me explain. Aside from perfect accuracy sleep that grass types can't absorb, it has great 130 Spe and absolutely insane 195 SpA. It's does however have two significant flaws that are all, imo, that prevent it from absolutely destroying the entire meta on its own. One, it's got really poor bulk, and two, it can't really beat sablenite blissey, though there is little it can do in return. It's stabs +focus miss (oh yeah, and w/ perfect accuracy) are completely unresisted, and it also resists pixispeed (though it's still dealing a chunk when you only have 60/65 physical bulk), and smacks them for SE damage. Aside from this, it's also got several different sets it could run stallbreaker sets w/ sub + WoW or gyaradosite w/ a bunch of options and godlike defensive typing (albeit a lot of waste, stat-wise), absolite for more stallbreaking (as well as great cleaning) potential, banettite because why not, lol, lopunnite subpunch could work, just for old times sake, you get the idea. Basically, it has a lot of unconventional options that could even work to destroy its conventional checks (like sablenite blissey), though some of them aren't as effective overall, they can pick and choose what they want to kill, kinda like regular mega gengar, in a way, despite not trapping its targets. Basically, it can one of these kind of really niche sets to open up the way for an ally to sweep the opponents team.
Honestly, I feel like that glass cannons like that aren't as effective in this meta as you would expect. They tend to be kind of underwhelming, power-wise. When you're that frail, you basically need to ohko everything or you will die, and the problem is, in this meta, most walls have more offensive presence than you'd probably anticipate. For example, just the other day, I was facing a diancite terrak, so I switched in Skarm, took about 30% from CC, and ohko'd it back w/ iron head. I'm not disagreeing w/ chomp moving up; it's got great bulk, insane stabs, and awesome offensive stats. It is weak to ates, like all dragons, though, and Weavile is EVERYWHERE, and beats chomp every time it tries to face it 1v1. Unless the weavile user is really stupid. I could support it moving up though, it's just not as effective as I would like it to be.
OLD GREGG (im back baby)
old gregg for life
Fire Blast off 140 base SpA doesn't feel good no matter what Tran and Skarm run as a mega stone(unless blue orb lol), Stone edge hits both for neutral damage coming off a base 190 attack.
Earthquake/Outrage/Swords Dance are great along with a coverage move of choice. I also made mention that it does hate priority in my first post.
Unlike Weavile, Chomp can run a decent mixed set.
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No, I get what you're saying, and chomp probably does deserve to move up, but weak to prio is a very big deal in MnM is all I was saying. Weavile is absolutely everywhere, and being weak to it is a bigger flaw than you seem to realize. And I know you touched on prio, and I'm just pointing out that its pretty big. It's pretty much the whole reason Dnite was banned. And it's part of why the pseudo-legendaries don't completely dominate the entire meta (bar Dnite), especially megamence.
OLD GREGG (im back baby)
old gregg for life
Yeah you are right, I do have to support its sweeps a bit. If it has a good to chance to sweep, it usually will. That only happens when priority is gone. If you can safely manage to remove the priority abusers from an opposing team, it has no problem punching holes. Even the fattest mons aren't safe considering SD and a 190 base attack combined with the second highest base speed in the entire game prior to mevo or boosts.
Y can't Ubers hold stones? I know that it makes some pokes stupidly powerful like Charizardite Y Reshiram, and any stone Arceus, but I don't see the point of using Uber banlist if no Ubers are viable. And please don't say that it makes the mega stones that are Uber usable, as currently the only viable ones are Mewtwonite X and Lucarionite, as the others are banned or not viable. So please, either give the meta the OU banlist, or allow some Uber pokes to hold megastones.
Lol, tis true.
Anyways, here's a cool set I've been experimenting w/:
Jirachi @ Sceptilite
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 4 Def / 248 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Protect
- Draco Meteor
- Wish
I think I'm going to change the spread to a bulky set, but basically the idea is that you can throw around Twave w/ impunity, since magic bounce will just raise your SpA, pass wishes/ heal yourself, and just basically break things in general. Rather than filling the role of a CM sweeper like most Rachi, it's more of a support. Also, nothing's going to want to take a +1 Draco meteor from 140 SpA. Except sablenite blissey, I guess, but there isn't a lot it can do
Edit:
Anyways, here's a cool set I've been experimenting w/:
Jirachi @ Sceptilite
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 4 Def / 248 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Protect
- Draco Meteor
- Wish
I think I'm going to change the spread to a bulky set, but basically the idea is that you can throw around Twave w/ impunity, since magic bounce will just raise your SpA, pass wishes/ heal yourself, and just basically break things in general. Rather than filling the role of a CM sweeper like most Rachi, it's more of a support. Also, nothing's going to want to take a +1 Draco meteor from 140 SpA. Except sablenite blissey, I guess, but there isn't a lot it can do
Edit:
why? They are perfectly viable, and why would you unban something knowing it would be broken??? This makes literally 0 sense.
Problem is, Ubers ARE viable, it's just that very few people even think about using them. For example, Arceus is still a VERY solid as a support 'mon or bulky set-up sweeper. I've seen Ho-Oh used very effectively with Band, and Xerneas is still capable of cleaning up an unprepared team. Ubers are viable in MnM due to their ability to hold an item, while packing almost as much power as some of the megas we use. Not to mention Primal Groudon is A on the viability rankings, which means it's quite good. Kyogre is still capable of running its good old scarf set, or run Blue Orb itself. This meta creates a LOT of viable 'mons, and the presence of Ubers keeps the meta diverse and means you can actually USE primal Groudon or kyogre, or whatever else. Mega Evolving Ubers would just completely invalidate more than half the meta.
EDIT: MaestroDeSWAG , that sounds like a REALLY annoying set to face. It seems pretty darn good, though you'd have to watch out for fairies.
EDIT: MaestroDeSWAG , that sounds like a REALLY annoying set to face. It seems pretty darn good, though you'd have to watch out for fairies.
Flash cannon isn't preferable due to the drastic drop in power, and it's not meant to sweep anyways. So if it's going to be attacking, it'd rather just absolutely nuke the opposition. Also, say you're at +1, you Draco meteor, then Draco meteor again. You will actually do more damage than two flash cannons at +1. The only pro that FC has is that it can hit fairies, which won't want to switch in anyways. For reference, a +1 Draco meteor followed by a -1 Draco meteor comes up to 280 BP total, whereas two +1 Flash Cannons only comes up to 240 BP. So Draco meteor is definitely the way to go. Starting at +0 the numbers are closer, but it's still the same story; Draco meteor still comes out on top. So unless your team's super weak to fairies, DM is the way to go.
And I think that Staraptor should be in viability for Loppunite. With stab Double Edge and Close Combat, it 2HKO'es almost everything, bar something weird like Aggronite Ferrothorn or something. I think its really good, bar dem pixiespeed
Edit: Fuck that it even 2HKO'es that 252 Atk Staraptor Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Filter Ferrothorn: 193-229 (54.8 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO yh this thing is practically, no actually unwallable, and should be considered as a wallbreaker .
Edit: Fuck that it even 2HKO'es that 252 Atk Staraptor Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Filter Ferrothorn: 193-229 (54.8 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO yh this thing is practically, no actually unwallable, and should be considered as a wallbreaker .
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I strongly disagree with gengar to S rank, here's the three main reasons:
1. Mew. I feel like if I wasn't on my phone I could put a sprite of Gengar then mew with the caption "Everything you can do, I can do better" though that isn't 100% true mew is just a lot better. Mew actually has the bulk to live extreme speeds, Aerialate from any of the mons would probably kill, Pixilate 2HKOs and so will Refrigirate. Mew has a bit over 100/100/100 bulk making it so that it can easily cripple multiple mons with a zapcannon. Every set you really want to run with Gengar can be ran by Mew better. Banettite? Mew has recovery, defog and hazards. Gyradosite? Mew has better bulk, hazards and recovery, it also has both Nasty plot and Swords dance. Pidgeottite? Zap cannon, Focus blast, Blizzard ans Nasty plot just destroys stall and beats blissey. Mew also has Hypnosis so gengar can't do that better. Gengar only has better stab, speed and special attack and destiny bond thats almost it... Mew has recovery, status, zap cannon, dynamic punch, hazards, amazing stats and mixed offences with boosting moves on both sides.
2. Ate. Ate just destroys gengar, forcing it out. Any ate can 2HKO mew but they're going to get paralyzed
3. Weavile. Weavile is sooooo freaking fast that it doesn't care aboyt Gengar and can easily revenge kill it pursuit/night slash.
Tagging xJownage becsuse he seems to be in control of the viabiliy rankings, lets hear some news! There's been like 10 nominations the last couple of pages, Manaphy for S is one of mine
1. Mew. I feel like if I wasn't on my phone I could put a sprite of Gengar then mew with the caption "Everything you can do, I can do better" though that isn't 100% true mew is just a lot better. Mew actually has the bulk to live extreme speeds, Aerialate from any of the mons would probably kill, Pixilate 2HKOs and so will Refrigirate. Mew has a bit over 100/100/100 bulk making it so that it can easily cripple multiple mons with a zapcannon. Every set you really want to run with Gengar can be ran by Mew better. Banettite? Mew has recovery, defog and hazards. Gyradosite? Mew has better bulk, hazards and recovery, it also has both Nasty plot and Swords dance. Pidgeottite? Zap cannon, Focus blast, Blizzard ans Nasty plot just destroys stall and beats blissey. Mew also has Hypnosis so gengar can't do that better. Gengar only has better stab, speed and special attack and destiny bond thats almost it... Mew has recovery, status, zap cannon, dynamic punch, hazards, amazing stats and mixed offences with boosting moves on both sides.
2. Ate. Ate just destroys gengar, forcing it out. Any ate can 2HKO mew but they're going to get paralyzed
3. Weavile. Weavile is sooooo freaking fast that it doesn't care aboyt Gengar and can easily revenge kill it pursuit/night slash.
Tagging xJownage becsuse he seems to be in control of the viabiliy rankings, lets hear some news! There's been like 10 nominations the last couple of pages, Manaphy for S is one of mine
The funny thing is, you're kinda being a condescending prick rn, but you're wrong. I get that it's frail af, but gengar sits at a MUCH better speed tier, has far more power, and has a better typing, offensively and defensively. Pre-mega, gar only has 3 weaknesses (like mew, but it isn't weak to u-turn), 3 resistances (mew has two), and 3 immunities (remind me again how many mew has???).
Gyaradosite mew is trash, so please don't say it's better. It has 1 immunity, which is cool, but 2 weaknesses, one of which is double, and NO resistances (Not to mention, it doesn't get anything Gar doesn't except for roost), where as gar has 3 immunities, 1 resistance, and only 1 weakness. Yeah, what you said was just incredibly stupid.
Gar doesn't just have better stabs, it has incredible stabs. Paired w/ focus blast, they are literally unresisted. That, and it has 195 SpA. When you combine these two traits, there is nothing, bar Sablenite Blissey, that will wall it. Mew, on the other hand, is relatively weak, has good options for no guard, but can't really utilize them well, and is easily outsped by basically all go offense in this meta. 120 isn't that great. So, to say it's just better is absurd. Mew isn't S rank because any of its sets are incredible, it's S rank because it has so many. Frankly, none of them are really incredible. They're just all useful. Mew is a waste of your pidgeotite and doesn't deserve all the hype it's gotten, as its strategy w/ it is purely based on making sure haxy events occur as often as possible and trolling them to death.
Btw, don't bring up Weavile when it destroys mew too.
Edit: forgot to mention, gar ohkos any pixilate mon and outspeeds all ates too, which mew won't unless it runs max speed, which I assume, since you're just trying to troll them, you don't.
xJownage
Even pendulums swing both ways
No, Gengar is NOT outclassed and the extra 10 speed and 30 extra spA makes the role formed by Gengar EXTREMELY different.
AllJokesAside
This will likely happen later this week, as the meta continues to stabilize. I think wednesday would be a nice day for it, but that is just random - the point is I don't think any of us are truly ready yet.
AllJokesAside
]
This will likely happen later this week, as the meta continues to stabilize. I think wednesday would be a nice day for it, but that is just random - the point is I don't think any of us are truly ready yet.
Ahh I see. Thanks for the explanation. It does seem like some of the regulars are missing lol