Resource ORAS NU Viability Rankings

[Brawlfest]

I don't feel like these are very relevant as klinklang misses out on so much by not running substitute and return (I know you didn't explicitly talk about removing sub but running hp grass over return just for quag seems pretty dumb to me no matter your team so I'll assume you remove sub). Substitute is absolutely essential to set up on half of what klinklang wants to set up on such as anything with t wave, leech seed, sleep powder or wow and uncapable of breaking a sub in 1 hit (a lot of psychic and grass types). Wild charge is a cool option over return for a lot of klingklangs counters but running it means you are absolutely forced to lose a lot of hp any time you face something with rocky helmet (especially garbo). It also means you completely miss out on certan mons like lanturn and stunfisk. Just in general, klinklang really likes to finish things off with return because his stab has shit accuracy, having your secondary option be both weaker and have recoil kind of sucks. I mean wild charge is a viable option but you more or less just change certan counters to other and are stuck with an inferior coverage move against anything they both (WC and Return) hit for standard damage.

I'm not too sure about klinklang for S. It's definately a big threat to be wreckoned with but I feel it's a little better on paper than in practice and doesn't do enough to it's own counters when it comes in early game (and can't start setting up yet) making him sort of deadweight as long as they're alive. I also feel like if people start considering klinklang as an S tier mon, it won't be long till the meta adapts and he becomes less good than he is today, something that can't be said about other S rank mons that can still dent some good damage on their counters and force them to recover on their spare turn (if they can). I'm not completely against Klinklang for S but would rather see him A+ for the moment.

Lol they aren't relevant much at all SJ, I was just trying to make a point that variants of the set are in fact able to with frightening efficiency get past supposed counters. HP Grass is actually really quite viable on offensively oriented teams, as it ensures Quagsire can really only come in against you once.

 

[Cheryl.]

I want Bouffalant to go to B+ rank. Bouffalant is a cool pokemon, sporting high attack and bulk, but low speed. Bouffalant has a great ability in Sap Sipper, turning things like Lilligant and Tangela into set up bait so Bouffalant can set up Swords Dance, one of the things that sets it apart from it's Normal type brethren. Bouffalant can also use it's bulk to set up against bulkier and slower teams. Bouffalant also has a Choice Band wallbreaker set that can deal huge amounts of damage. Problems with Bouffalant are it's low speed, making it worse against more offensive teams, and it can't just soak up damage, even with it's bulk, but Bouffalant is a pretty nice pokemon and IMO should rise. I was also gonna post some replays of him, but it included Sneasel, who is banned, so those aren't relevant anymore.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Linoone for C+/B-

Linoone is a very special all or nothing mon, but one important thing I understood when using him is how as long as he's relatively healthy in your team, there's hope, and a good one! What I mean here is that even when the game really isn't going in your favour (hax or not), if all your opponent's linoone counters are dead or weak enough, all you need is that one turn to turn the game around and win it, something no other pokemon acheives this well in NU. Quite often in a game, a full health linoone's simple presence can be enough for your opponent to not be able to kill any of your mons with a simple non LO/specs mesprit or a weakend piloswine because of the free switch to linoone and those are not weak mons! Here are a couple of calcs to show my point. To stop linoone from setting up, a pokemon must make more than 75% in one hit, 62,5% if SR or a layer of spikes is up.

252+ SpA Mesprit Psychic vs. 172 HP / 40 SpD Linoone: 195-231 (57.3 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mesprit Psychic vs. 172 HP / 40 SpD Linoone: 178-211 (52.3 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Piloswine Earthquake vs. 172 HP / 44 Def Linoone: 210-247 (61.7 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 172 HP / 44 Def Linoone: 210-247 (61.7 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


You get the idea and it's practically impossible to stop with an attacking move with screens/memento support (FU specs pyroar with unnerve)! Not to mention certan moves that would wreck other sweepers like leech seed and thunder-wave and even toxic often won't stop linoone from wrecking havoc and giving you an easy win. I believe linoone is currently placed where he is because he isn't that hard to counter but I think it's important to consider he isn't that hard to set up either especially considering your opponent can't use attacking move (on set up) + priority to finish you off like he would with most other sweepers. Besides, since nearly all ghosts are faster than linoone (considering you run him bulky) and very frail, he really doesn't need the coverage shadow claw brings (it doesn't even OHKO gourgeist-super anyway and seed bomb kills golurk) so he can very well afford to run iron tail to kill stuff like mega audino, granbull and cradily. (Iron tail over shadow claw should be changed on the smogon dex btw)

+6 252+ Atk Linoone Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Audino: 390-460 (95.1 - 112.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

In my experience, linoone has given me the win in games I should have lost and situations where no other pokemon could have granted me such incredible comebacks. I understand it's a high risk high reward mon that requires some support but linoone is not a gimmick and deserves more than a C in my opinion.

 

[Syncrasy]

Pawniard B+/to A -

With the loss of Sneasel i think Pawn has gotten better as it has less competition as a Physical dark type attacker, and It also helps check the CM psychics and it isn't weak to their bug coverage moves(which makes malamar harder to set up on these psychics as they can 2HKO it with their bug coverage)
calcs
252+ Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Colbur Berry Uxie: 105-124 (35 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Uxie: 170-204 (56.6 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
which has a guaranteed chance after stealth rocks
and it can live 2 Signal beams(assuming they aren't running hp fire) but can live one if necessary
252 SpA Uxie Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 124-148 (53.6 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Xatu Signal Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 70-83 (30.3 - 35.9%) -- 42.2% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Colbur Berry Xatu: 118-139 (35.3 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Xatu: 194-230 (58 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
it can also live one HW if need be b4 a CM
0 SpA Xatu Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 178-210 (77 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
after KO kinda becomes 50/50 if Heat wave set but it can bets Signal beam one

Pawniard Can also learn SD to set up with these mons and beta them one-on-one. It also gets access to sucker punch which helps it vs faster opponents and it gets the ability defiant which make opponents more hesitant to use defog.

 

[Aladyyn]

I don't think Pawniard got any better overall after the bans. It had an awesome niche as one of the better offensive Sneasel checks and that brought it up to B+. I'm really not a fan of relying on 50/50s against Psychic types it should supposedly be able to check. It can act as an emergency Flying resist which is pretty cute but still not enough to warrant a rise. It probably should've been A- in the previous meta but I can't justify a rise for it right now. If I want to check CM Psychics I'd much rather use Liepard which does so much more reliably.

 

[Syncrasy]

lol ironically i was going post liepard 1st but opted out bcs its kinda frail but ye i see what you mean by it being able to close that 50/50 thing

 

[Cheryl.]

Well, KFC aka Combusken is in the tier now.I can't use my computer right now so haven't used it yet. But you guys can discuss it. I think it can be a cool mon.

 

[Teddeh]

So there's been a lot of talks about some nominations that I feel aren't really quite there in ways of support.
Sawk - S: What has changed between now and before the gallade meta? Sawk has lost a very good partner in sneasel for which it could help trap fighting checks. Nothing else has changed that would push it over the boundary for S rank. It realistically has become worse and people are pushing for a rise? I disagree.

Klinklang - S/A+: Again, what has made klinklang so good that would warrant an S rank? A/A+ is where it should be at. It's limited in sets and in coverage options, its main STAB option is extremely unreliable and has near zero versatility. It is a threatening setup sweeper in this tier but for these reasons alone I would keep it solely in A, A+ at a push but I would need to play more in this meta to gain a further understanding to see whether it would warrant that rank.

My nomination that I would personally like to discuss;
Mawile - S: With several viable sets being bulky pivot, threatening setup sweeper, offensive rocks, wall breaker. It has a number of sets that allow for excellent team support whilst also acting as a very effective psychic check / resist which would also further push this nomination. With sneasel and gallade gone, it has not lost its niche. Instead, it has gained a new niche in checking calm mind psychic types which commonly run psychic / bug / grass coverage. It has a wide diverse number of things it can do to its name and is a staple on most teams for this reason. Everyone knows how good the sets are, how hard it is to find a good normal resist and a mon that can gain momentum, pass boosts and setup rocks all on one pokemon. It is by definition S rank.

 

[Deej Dy]

"I would need to play more in this meta to gain a further understanding to see whether it would warrant that rank.(Referencing Kingklang)"- Teddeh
Yes you certainly would, this thing is the best Pokemon in tier at the moment in my opinion.

I agree with Sawk not rising to S, but i find it very strange how you would want Mawile S rank over Kingklang. Yes it can fulfill more rolls than Kingklang, but Kingklang fulfills its one role better than all of Mawile's other roles combined (and then some). Variability in sets should not be the sole reason for something to rise, and all of its sets are slow so there isn't even a "surprise scarf" set like some past Gallades.

I think A+ is fine, because it hits hard and has some priority in sucker punch (albeit easy to combat with faster mons with sub Kingklang).
As far as checking calm mind psychics go, Mawile is pretty terrible at that. After all it takes 40-50% from an unboosted Mesprit if it's offensive.
252 SpA Mesprit Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mawile: 102-121 (42.3 - 50.2%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO

Or if it is defensive and does have hp investment, it can only really baton pass/toxic/super fang (Xatu says hi) as the Pokemon either sets up more or bops it after a couple psychics.
People aren't really even using Psyshock as much this meta as Psychic since Cryogonal is almost nonexistent, which screws Mawile over further.

Don't get me wrong, Mawile is a great mon and well deserving of A+, but no way in hell should that thing be in the same tier or even ahead of Kingklang.

 

[shiloh]

Klinklang - S/A+: Again, what has made klinklang so good that would warrant an S rank? A/A+ is where it should be at. It's limited in sets and in coverage options, its main STAB option is extremely unreliable and has near zero versatility. It is a threatening setup sweeper in this tier but for these reasons alone I would keep it solely in A, A+ at a push but I would need to play more in this meta to gain a further understanding to see whether it would warrant that rank.

My nomination that I would personally like to discuss;
Mawile - S: With several viable sets being bulky pivot, threatening setup sweeper, offensive rocks, wall breaker. It has a number of sets that allow for excellent team support whilst also acting as a very effective psychic check / resist which would also further push this nomination. With sneasel and gallade gone, it has not lost its niche. Instead, it has gained a new niche in checking calm mind psychic types which commonly run psychic / bug / grass coverage. It has a wide diverse number of things it can do to its name and is a staple on most teams for this reason. Everyone knows how good the sets are, how hard it is to find a good normal resist and a mon that can gain momentum, pass boosts and setup rocks all on one pokemon. It is by definition S rank.

I don't get this at all. You mention how Mawile can take the Psychic / Grass / Bug Coverage (some started running Fire for Ferroseed btw), but you completely fail to realize that Klinklang handles that coverage just as well, or maybe even a bit better due to its naturally higher SpDef. It also can abuse the fact it resists the coverage by setting up all over them, which is something Mawile can't do as if it is defensive it just loses to the Sub Sets or even the RestTalk ones. And if its offensive it is 2HKOd by Psychic as Deej showed. Mawile is still extremely weak without investment, and if you do decide to invest in Attack and give it Sheer Force, it suddenly loses the ability to take hits. Overall Mawile is a mon that can have multiple roles, but they just all aren't good enough to give it the push to S.

 

[Marikeinen]

So there's been a lot of talks about some nominations that I feel aren't really quite there in ways of support.
Sawk - S: What has changed between now and before the gallade meta? Sawk has lost a very good partner in sneasel for which it could help trap fighting checks. Nothing else has changed that would push it over the boundary for S rank. It realistically has become worse and people are pushing for a rise? I disagree.

Klinklang - S/A+: Again, what has made klinklang so good that would warrant an S rank? A/A+ is where it should be at. It's limited in sets and in coverage options, its main STAB option is extremely unreliable and has near zero versatility. It is a threatening setup sweeper in this tier but for these reasons alone I would keep it solely in A, A+ at a push but I would need to play more in this meta to gain a further understanding to see whether it would warrant that rank.

My nomination that I would personally like to discuss;
Mawile - S: With several viable sets being bulky pivot, threatening setup sweeper, offensive rocks, wall breaker. It has a number of sets that allow for excellent team support whilst also acting as a very effective psychic check / resist which would also further push this nomination. With sneasel and gallade gone, it has not lost its niche. Instead, it has gained a new niche in checking calm mind psychic types which commonly run psychic / bug / grass coverage. It has a wide diverse number of things it can do to its name and is a staple on most teams for this reason. Everyone knows how good the sets are, how hard it is to find a good normal resist and a mon that can gain momentum, pass boosts and setup rocks all on one pokemon. It is by definition S rank.

I'd like to touch on both Klinklang and Mawile;

I wouldnt go as far as to nominate Gears to S, although if NU had an S- rank, I'd probably put it there. See, after the age of darkness and ice (geddit) turned over, this has since become the meta of CM physics. While Gears can't instantly threaten them, it can set up alongside them and beat them eventually. And then the CM user has a +4 gears against them, gg.
Although, as somebody mentioned here, Gears has no counters. I know that not having counters isn't a valid argument anymore ( see magmortar ), but the fact that Gears is perhaps the most threatening set up sweeper in the tier atm while shreking it's only "counter", quagsire, with the set of gods LO HP grass, means that no team is safe when gears gets a set-up opportunity.
A would be too low for the metal pieces, A+ seems optimal for me atm.

You're saying that mawile can do everything, check CM psychics, act as a check to physical attackers, offensive rocks, wall breaker etc. Well sure, its' individual sets CAN do all of that, but that's where 4MSS comes into play, as well as the importance of choosing its' EV's.

If it wants to check CM physics, it has to run offensive, since

0 Atk Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Uxie: 51-61 (14.4 - 17.2%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery
Uxie will just set up subs all over Mawile

Alongside that, it'd want to run atleast one stab, SD and sucker punch. Suddenly you have no room for utility.
I guess you could say that a single doesn't have to do everything, that what's amazing about Mawile is that it has a set for everything.
The thing is that if it run any one set, it instantly becomes shit in its' other roles.

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Sawk Close Combat vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Mawile: 238-282 (87.8 - 104%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Now, I know that CB sawk might be a bit overkill even for defensive Mawile, but this is just an example of how offensive Mawile can not act as a check anymore. It also does not have enough move slots to perform as a pivot or a support anymore.

Mawile has some similarities to Uxie, imho. Both are VERY good at the role they choose to perform, but at the same time they can't do much else. Versatility at the cost of being ultra-specialized isn't a reason to rise a mon to S-rank.
I'd put Mawile into A or A+, probably A+

 

[Disjunction]

Basically, I'm saying it'd be refreshing for me to see a bunch of noms for dropping mons instead of hyping mons :)

sigh ok

In no particular order:

Agree with

to A+/S

It's a meta defining mon right now. It sets up on some of the tier's biggest threats, such as CM Psychics, HP Rock Lilli, specific Normal-types, and a slew of defensive threats. In one turn it can either Sub to become a threat to defensive teams, or Shift Gear to outpace every offensive team. This isn't a suspect argument, so I'm not going to bring up the relevancy of its checks, etc, but it does warp team building in a similar way that SD Gatr did back in XY. It had TONS of defensive and offensive checks, but you had to go a tad bit out of your way to fit those checks onto your team because it was a metagame defining threat that could steam roll poorly prepared teams. Gatr, just like Klinklang, had the tools to threaten every type of team with no need for set variation because it has most everything it could want in its primary set. I would support any rise that's agreed upon.

Agree with

to S

Another meta defining Pokemon. It's arguably our best wall breaker right now with an incredible amount of versatility for its last 2 moveslots. Stone Edge/Ice Punch/Zen Headbutt/EQ etc give it beyond perfect coverage. Specific users who spam hazard control cores will sing praises of Sturdy's indispensable usefulness because it really is a great ability to have that rewards playing well early game to give yourself an edge against a set up sweeper late game. Or it just rewards matchup. The new surge in CM Psychics will hold Sawk back in battle, but if Sawk is what's holding them back in team builder and forcing them to run Colbur, then I think it's a sign of Sawk's influence. Whether you think Gallade was an inferior Sawk or not, Gallade leaving brings no competition for Sawk as the best Fighting-type wall breaker in the tier. With the tools to beat or at least threaten every single one of its checks/counters, I'd say this thing has been overdue for a rise for a while.

Disagree with

to B+

Honestly, this thing is probably one of the best Lanturn partners out there, as most switch ins to Lanturn are either opposing Lanturn (the worst kind of switch in) or Grass-types, of which Bouffalant beats the majority of. However, I'd say this thing is pretty comfortable in B. It's great if you have the right matchup, but it otherwise struggles a bit more than it should when it doesn't. We have plenty of other viable Normal-type set up sweepers/wall breakers to pick from that have more speed and set up opportunities. So, while Bouff's niche as a bulky set up mon with Sipper sets it apart, it has enough going for it to keep it at a comfortable B rank.

Agree with

to B-

Yeah, this thing got pretty good again since Magnets leaving and then even more after Sneasel leaving. Amazing Speed tier, great offensive STABs, and Sleep Powder which, by virtue of Sleep, can negate a number of its counters for a couple turns. Definitely on a higher level than most of our C+'s.

Agree with

to D

I'm obviously biased, but I agree. Duosion is powerful, bulky, and versatile. The few niches it has over Musharna (Magic Guard + a good chunk more SpA) are more than enough to set it apart and as a bulky CM sweeper with similar tools like Acid Armor, Signal Beam, and recovery. A definition D rank mon.

Agree with

to A+

Yeah, this thing is a titan in NU. Extremely bulky with a slew of tools in its belt for sweeping, such as Barrier, Thunder Wave, Baton Pass, Heal Bell, and coverage options such as Energy Ball, Signal Beam, and even HP Fire. As the best Fighting-type switch-in in the tier bar none, and the face of CM Psychic-type sweepers, Musharna's rank should reflect that, especially given the relevance of CM sweepers in the tier now.

Disagree with

to B

Hariyama is still a great fit on teams nowadays. In fact, it's probably more underrated right now than what people are giving it credit for, especially in a meta that's still afraid of Ice-types and special Water-types. Back up priority support and a great blanket check to most of the tier's special checks is not something to scoff at, in my honest opinion. Keep Hariyama where he's at.

Could have made comments on a bunch more, but I think this is enough for now.


And for some of my own noms:

--> D
Lugg was really reliant on Sneasel to be relevant so I hope there aren't too many qualms about him dropping back down to D? It stills holds an awesome niche as a spinner that can switch into most Normal-types/Archeops and spin, but it's held back by its typing, speed, and poor special bulk.

--> B-
With less splashable Knock Off users going around and special Psychic-types seeing a rise, Beheeyem stands out not only because of its insane Analytic attacks backed by its incredible base 125 SpA stat, but because of the coverage it can easily run to beat common Psychic-type checks. Scyther/Murkrow/neutral targets are destroyed by Tbolt, Barb/Costa/Quag are destroyed by Energy Ball, Musharna by Signal Beam, and HP Fire is also reliable for hitting Pawniard/Ferroseed/Klinklang. It's also fairly bulky with 75/75/95 overall bulk. Tagging Shaneghoul because I've seen him use it to great effect :)

--> C-/D
Lampent is a really niche choice for the likes of Pyroar and Magmortars lacking EQ (which are few), Mawile/Klinklang, along with some assorted Grass-types. Typically, though, you have better options, but Lampent does hold a niche with its ability to blanket a number of these mons together.

 

[Ares]

Can someone tell me what exactly has changed for sawk inbetween metas that has made it an S rank mon. Cause reading through all the Sawk to S noms, not a single one has said something that now makes Sawk S. All the noms are it hits hard and has sturdy, which its always had.

 

[Teddeh]

My view points between klinklang and mawile are that they are different in a sense of team role support and the ability to multi-role.

On one side we have a klinklang. A reliable setup sweeper who has one very good set which allows it to sweep. It has lost a number of reliable answers in the previous drops however, it is predictable, cookie cutter and easy to prepare for as a result of this. It does check calm mind psychics as well as mawile however I think that since klinklang is rather predictable, it is not worth putting it in S rank, at a push A+.

On the other side we have mawile. Another reliable setup sweeper which can tear apart bulkier teams with its wall breaker / SD sets. It can also offer undeniable team support with baton pass, swords dance, stealth rock and several other support moves as well as offering a reliable answer to several threats in the meta such as archeops, swellow, non fire blast variants of tauros and even fighting types. In regards to whether psychic is more popular than psyshock; if the meta is a calm mind cluster fuck, that will soon change and mawile will be able to reliable answer psyshock variants of psychic types, they don't just run it because of cryagonal... Secondly, it is a check to calm mind psychic types. Sub variants of which are able to avoid your toxic / super fang / stealth rock / play rough set, however i think that toxic/super fang is terrible in comparison to running swords dance in which it can pass boosts to team mates and beat calm mind psychic types with the aid of using its wide diverse movepool. Hence beating calm mind users.
Now it seems to me that you're basing your argument against mind solely on the fact that both of these pokemon can check psychic types. Yes, klinklang can do a better job at that, I will not deny it. However, mawile's other roles puts it ahead of klinklang. "Kingklang fulfills its one role better than all of Mawile's other roles combined (and then some)"... I can't disagree more. Mawile's pivot set / support set / sweeper set are all A to A+ sets on their own. The fact that it has all 3 of them pushes it into the S rank which allows a huge amount of team support to the whole of the tier and is a staple on teams. By definition, it should be an S rank pokemon.

For those calcs Marikeinen you make me want to punch my new laptop screen (see Adaire for what happened last time)... Since when does 1, uxie run max, max? 2, since when do you run no defense investment on a mawile with intimidate and 120hp investment ?__?

For my final point, i wanted to bring mawile up for discussion since it's been a staple, I'm not sure fire it deserves S rank, however I felt it deserved discussion around it to hear other peoples points.

 

[Disjunction]

Can someone tell me what exactly has changed for sawk inbetween metas that has made it an S rank mon. Cause reading through all the Sawk to S noms, not a single one has said something that now makes Sawk S. All the noms are it hits hard and has sturdy, which its always had.

I don't feel Sawk necessarily needed a change in metas to deserve S, it's deserved it for a while. It's warped NU for a long time (for the reasons I've stated above, more than just hits hard + sturdy) and I can't really think of any solid reason why it hasn't deserved it in the past. Of course, it's more of a controversial nom so discussion on the topic is good!!!

 

[Ares]

But if anything this meta shift has been less than favorable for it with a number of things increasing in viability that prevent Sawk from spamming close combat. Mostly things such a Bulky Psyhcic-types and more Ghost-types who were less used due to Sneasel. I'm not saying that Knock off doesn't hurt them, I'm just saying that's one less time that Sawk gets to hit CC.

 

[Disjunction]

"Good Teams" have always dedicated a fair chunk of their resources to checking Fighting-types. The fact that CM Psychics/Ghosts now have breathing room again just means that they will potentially be used as the Fighting switch in, as opposed to Granbull or Garbodor. Sawk players have had to play around checks/counters for a long time, in much of the same way, and the volume of checks and counters won't change because Sawk still has the coverage to hit every type that resists CC (I guess outside of Granbull, but it obviously does not fit onto every team).

 

[Sweet Jesus]

I feel this nom is gonna be controversial, but

C+ ==> B+/A-

I feel vitcreebel is being underated here because of it's poor usage and the image weather teams have mainly sun. You barely ever see victreebel on a non sun team and for a good reason, without weather it completely sucks and would probably be C-/D but once the sun is up (and setting sun up is super easy), this thing is a fucking terror that doesn't even need any further boost to rip teams apart. The way I see it now, victreebel's ranking seems to be influenced by both it's presence in and out of sun probably because it doesn't set it itself most of the time (although it can easily make the spot in his moves if needed). In my opinion, victreebel's ranking should be based nearly exclusively on what it does in the sun because it's by far it's best use and it shouldn't suffer from the success of sun in general but be seen as an individual threat.
Just to show victreebel's supremacy in sun let's check out what it outspeeds, OHKO's and 2HKO's (let's not forget weather ball is 150 bp and more powerful than STAB sbomb).

(I consider the most common sets and stuff like 92% chance to OHKO as an OHKO)
S 2/2 OHKO
A+ 5/11 OHKO, 11/11 2HKO (I considered sawk as 2HKO cuz sturdy but it's ohko if it's broken)
A 7/12 OHKO, 12/12 2HKO
A- 12/12 OHKO
B+ 15/18 OHKO, 17/18 2HKO (dang yama you bulky)
Outspeeds practically everything even most scarfers

And the majority of the 2HKO's are making a lot more than 50% meaning they require few prediction and sometimes OHKO's after rocks which is great when your sweeping turns are counted.

These might be slightly flawed depending on interpretation, but generally speaking they're fucking incredible for some sweeper that only needs one of his teamates to make a 1 turn set up for him. Let's not forget that for anyhting he doesn't OHKO, he can simply use sleep powder and hopefully get his 2HKO (37,5% chance to not miss and get 2-3 sleep turns) or just cripple it's check and switch out, magmortar and hypno (lol) being the only exceptions. Sleep powder can also be used to bypass sucker punch one of the rare things that would otherwise bother victreebel.

Sun is usualy seen as inferior to rain therefore it's best abuser is currently classed a lot lower than rain's (ludicolo) but once they're respective weather is set up they're practically as good one another. Victreebel often being better and more reliable (focus blast and hydro pump have shit accuracy).

If it wasn't obvious enough, I considered this set
Victreebel @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Solar Beam
- Sludge Bomb
- Weather Ball
- Sleep Powder/Sunny Day/Sucker Punch

 

[Marikeinen]

I feel this nom is gonna be controversial, but

C+ ==> B+/A-

I feel vitcreebel is being underated here because of it's poor usage and the image weather teams have mainly sun. You barely ever see victreebel on a non sun team and for a good reason, without weather it completely sucks and would probably be C-/D but once the sun is up (and setting sun up is super easy), this thing is a fucking terror that doesn't even need any further boost to rip teams apart. The way I see it now, victreebel's ranking seems to be influenced by both it's presence in and out of sun probably because it doesn't set it itself most of the time (although it can easily make the spot in his moves if needed). In my opinion, victreebel's ranking should be based nearly exclusively on what it does in the sun because it's by far it's best use and it shouldn't suffer from the success of sun in general but be seen as an individual threat.
Just to show victreebel's supremacy in sun let's check out what it outspeeds, OHKO's and 2HKO's (let's not forget weather ball is 150 bp and more powerful than STAB sbomb).

(I consider the most common sets and stuff like 92% chance to OHKO as an OHKO)
S 2/2 OHKO
A+ 5/11 OHKO, 11/11 2HKO (I considered sawk as 2HKO cuz sturdy but it's ohko if it's broken)
A 7/12 OHKO, 12/12 2HKO
A- 12/12 OHKO
B+ 15/18 OHKO, 17/18 2HKO (dang yama you bulky)
Outspeeds practically everything even most scarfers

And the majority of the 2HKO's are making a lot more than 50% meaning they require few prediction and sometimes OHKO's after rocks

These might be slightly flawed depending on interpretation, but generally speaking they're fucking incredible for some sweeper that only needs one of his teamates to make a 1 turn set up for him. Let's not forget that for anyhting he doesn't OHKO, he can simply use sleep powder and hopefully get his 2HKO (37,5% chance to not miss and get 2-3 sleep turns) or just cripple it's check and switch out, magmortar and hypno (lol) being the only exceptions. Sleep powder can also be used to bypass sucker punch one of the rare things that would otherwise bother victreebel.

Sun is usualy seen as inferior to rain therefore it's best abuser is currently classed a lot lower than rain's (ludicolo) but once they're respective weather is set up they're practically as good one another. Victreebel often being better and more reliable (focus blast and hydro pump have shit accuracy).

If it wasn't obvious enough, I considered this set
Victreebel @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Solar Beam
- Sludge Bomb
- Weather Ball
- Sleep Powder/Sunny Day/Sucker Punch

I'd just like to add that I've been running a semi-succesful sun team and Coba berry HP Rock victreebell is cute for beating fletchinders :)

That's all

Thought I should expand on this subject; Victreebell, as good as it is in sun, should under no circumstances be ranked as B+; unlike ludicolo, it can not properly function as a standalone sweeper. Its' general frailty makes it harder for Bell to set up its' weather, and even with weather up, there are some switch-ins to Victreebell, which is not the case for Ludicolo with rain boosted STAB and whatnot.

I think C+ is fine considering how situational Bell is, although I could see B- happening.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

I'd just like to add that I've been running a semi-succesful sun team and Coba berry HP Rock victreebell is cute for beating fletchinders :)

That's all

Thought I should expand on this subject; Victreebell, as good as it is in sun, should under no circumstances be ranked as B+; unlike ludicolo, it can not properly function as a standalone sweeper. Its' general frailty makes it harder for Bell to set up its' weather, and even with weather up, there are some switch-ins to Victreebell, which is not the case for Ludicolo with rain boosted STAB and whatnot.

I think C+ is fine considering how situational Bell is, although I could see B- happening.

Victreebel's only common switch-ins I see would be AV hariyama, lickilicky and AV magmortar which is easily 2hko'd after rocks (I don't think defensive flareon really exists anymore) so no idea what you're talking about when you say "there are some switch-ins to Victreebell". Besides, lickilicky and hariayama are great against ludicolo too (hariyama's not 2hko'd unless hydro pump which has 64% chance to hit twice in a row (that's bad)). Mantine as well as opposing ludi can switch into ludicolo btw. In fact, I would argue victreebel has less swith-in's than ludicolo as although his main stab is slightly stronger than victreebel's, his coverage moves are a lot less meaning a wrong predict will often cost you more then with victreebel.
I also want to mention surf is barely stronger than solarbeam (as in less then 4% stronger) so ludi pretty much has to use an 80% acc STAB to get that "stronger STAB" you talk about.

Ludicolo as a standalone sweeper does shit fuck to ferroseed who can retalliate with knock off/t-wave or simply gyro + LO stacking and completely stall out his rain turns.

In the end, ludicolo is actually slightly easier to play around and stall out rain turns so the only real argument I agree with is that victreebel doesn't fucntion very well as a standalone sweeper. As I already explained, I don't think this should be taken much in consideration because using him that way is just the wrong way of using him (you wouldn't say a special attacker sucks because if you use a physical set he sucks). In the end, ludi might be easier to fit into a team because it doesn't have to be centered around rain, but once their respective weathers are up they are equally destructive and this is not the "easy to fit into a team rankings". The simple fact ludi functions slightly better as a standalone sweeper is as big of a difference to me as the difference between an A and a A-/B+ rank should be.

I think of it this way: Under sun, victreebel is definately the strongest mon in the tier (or maybe tied with eggy). If it's something as simple as having sun up that's needed for it to wreck havoc in such a way, it definately doesn't deserve C+ or B- rank.

EDIT (cuz I'm shy to post 3 times for the same nom):

First off thanks for the compliments Deej Dy :).

I can't argue with the fact that victreebel's sun set is purely terrible when sun is not up (although sludge bomb is still nowhere near weak). But I don't think it matters that much as the only times you'll encounter those situations are if you don't run a sunny day team or your sun is depleted. If you run a standalone victreebel (which you shouldn't) you necessarily have sunny day on your set meaning you don't really need to pose an immediate threat to quag as he's not doing that much to you and you can still hope for a sweep if your opponent lacks priority. This is what I meant by slightly, prediction apart, there aren't that much more mons that ludi can set up on than victreebell can (although they are different). Of course ludi still has a lot more opportunities to set up his own weather thanks to the mind games but I'm still suggesting victreebell for lower than ludi is and repeating victreebel shouldn't be setting his own weather.

Which leaves us only with the second option of sun depleting while you're sweeping but sun teams have the ability to set up 8 turns of sun with usualy more than one mon and in a single turn. It has nothing to do with dual screens + memento and even then there are a handfull of mons that can do massive damage to mons with such support and the mons themselves are not hitting hard because of screens unlike victreebel with sun which means an exra turn of set up (Marowak under screens is still a joke to switch in next to victreebel in sun and let's just ignore belly drum magmortar (I'll take it as a joke)). Under sun, the only things I see damaging significantly victreebel are by avoiding the OHKO after a free switch (which was probably caused by a kill), ice shard, fletch, scarf aurorus, ditto and the 3 mentionned earlier (licki, yama and mag) (and fake out kills a sun turn). Compare that to ludi and you have to add hydro's shit accuracy, all the sucker punch users (cacturne, mawile, kanga, keckleon) and SS kabutops while trading magmortar and ice shard (swine) for mantine and opposing ludi.

Yes everything has counters but you can't deny the number of counters is important and I would argue victreebel is harder to stop than ludi. Besides AV magmortar is not a counter if rocks are up.

I don't think I can agree with the C descrition, yes victreebel NEEDS to have sun support and yes to be effective you have to center your team around sun, but in game it's probably the easiest support there is to give, and it doesn't become "good", it becomes one of the hardest things to stop in the tier often ohko'ing more than half a team and 2hko'ing the rest no prediction required, all moves 100% acc.

 

[Deej Dy]

Victreebel's only common switch-ins I see would be AV hariyama, lickilicky and AV magmortar which is easily 2hko'd after rocks (I don't think defensive flareon really exists anymore) so no idea what you're talking about when you say "there are some switch-ins to Victreebell". Besides, lickilicky and hariayama are great against ludicolo too (hariyama's not 2hko'd unless hydro pump which has 64% chance to hit twice in a row (that's bad)). Mantine as well as opposing ludi can switch into ludicolo btw. In fact, I would argue victreebel has less swith-in's than ludicolo as although his main stab is slightly stronger than victreebel's, his coverage moves are a lot less meaning a wrong predict will often cost you more then with victreebel.
I also want to mention surf is barely stronger than solarbeam (as in less then 4% stronger) so ludi pretty much has to use an 80% acc STAB to get that "stronger STAB" you talk about.

Ludicolo as a standalone sweeper does shit fuck to ferroseed who can retalliate with knock off/t-wave or simply gyro + LO stacking and completely stall out his rain turns.

In the end, ludicolo is actually slightly easier to play around and stall out rain turns so the only real argument I agree with is that victreebel doesn't fucntion very well as a standalone sweeper. As I already explained, I don't think this should be taken much in consideration because using him that way is just the wrong way of using him (you wouldn't say a special attacker sucks because if you use a physical set he sucks). In the end, ludi might be easier to fit into a team because it doesn't have to be centered around rain, but once they're respective weathers are up they are equally destructive and this is not the "easy to fit into a team rankings". The simple fact ludi functions slightly better as a standalone sweeper is as big of a difference to me as the difference between an A and a A-/B+ rank should be.

I think of it this way: Under sun, victreebel is definately the strongest mon in the tier (or maybe tied with eggy). If it's something as simple as having sun up that's needed for it to wreck havoc in such a way, it definately doesn't deserve C+ or B- rank.

Mr. Jeebus, I think this is the first time I have disagreed with you, as you usually make very well thought out arguments. However, this time I am inclined to disagree.

"The simple fact ludi functions slightly better as a standalone sweeper is as big of a difference to me as the difference between an A and a A-/B+ rank should be."

Unlike Ludicolo, Victreebell cannot be a standalone sweeper as two of it's moves (Solar beam and Weather Ball) are absolutely useless before the sun is up. This means It cannot force out Rhydons or Quagsires for easy weather setting like Ludicolo because all it literally has is Sludge bomb and Sleep powder to support a vain attempt to set up sun for 5 turns.

I would say Victreebell is not "slighty less" great as a standalone sweeper, it is a terrible standalone sweeper, if even capable of being called one.

Next, the "Ludicolo can't touch Ferroseed" argument doesn't prove anything. The same could be said of AV Magmortar for Victreebell which is more common. Not much more needs to be said of this, everything has counters (cept kingklang).

After reading the description for C (or perhaps low B), Victreebell fits well within those confines. It needs to have Sun support to be good, period.
Unlike Exeggutor, it needs sun support to function, so why are you trying to nominate it to the same rank? Even Gorebyss, a B+ rank mon, can do twice as much in one turn (Shell Smash) as Victreebell (Sunny Day), without having to rely on Sleep Power hitting and getting good sleep rolls.

I won't deny that Victreebell or even weather in general are threatening (Ill be the first to knowledge I hate them), but it wouldn't be right to have a Pokemon that requires extensive support (2 sunny day setters) in the same rank as other Pokemon that can preform to similar standards without as much support.
The same theory could be applied to providing Dual screens and Memento Support to Marowak or Belly Drum Magmortar.

TLDR: Victreebell is good, but requires extensive support to be good (Opportunity cost of two slots for Uxie/Liepard)

 

[Marikeinen]

EDIT (cuz I'm shy to post 3 times for the same nom):

I can't argue with the fact that victreebel's sun set is purely terrible when sun is not up (although sludge bomb is still nowhere near weak). But I don't think it matters that much as the only times you'll encounter those situations are if you don't run a sunny day team or your sun is depleted. If you run a standalone victreebel (which you shouldn't) you necessarily have sunny day on your set meaning you don't really need to pose an immediate threat to quag as he's not doing that much to you and you can still hope for a sweep if your opponent lacks priority. This is what I meant by slightly, prediction apart, there aren't that much more mons that ludi can set up on than victreebell can (although they are different). Of course ludi still has a lot more opportunities to set up his own weather thanks to the mind games but I'm still suggesting victreebell for lower than ludi is and repeating victreebel shouldn't be setting his own weather.

Which leaves us only with the second option of sun depleting while you're sweeping but sun teams have the ability to set up 8 turns of sun with usualy more than one mon and in a single turn. It has nothing to do with dual screens + memento and even then there are a handfull of mons that can do massive damage to mons with such support and the mons themselves are not hitting hard because of screens unlike victreebel with sun which means an exra turn of set up (Marowak under screens is still a joke to switch in next to victreebel in sun and let's just ignore belly drum magmortar (I'll take it as a joke)). Under sun, the only things I see damaging significantly victreebel are by avoiding the OHKO after a free switch (which was probably caused by a kill), ice shard, fletch, scarf aurorus, ditto and the 3 mentionned earlier (licki, yama and mag) (and fake out kills a sun turn). Compare that to ludi and you have to add hydro's shit accuracy, all the sucker punch users (cacturne, mawile, kanga, keckleon) and SS kabutops while trading magmortar and ice shard (swine) for mantine and opposing ludi.

Yes everything has counters but you can't deny the number of counters is important and I would argue victreebel is harder to stop than ludi. Besides AV magmortar is not a counter if rocks are up.

I don't think I can agree with the C descrition, yes victreebel NEEDS to have sun support and yes to be effective you have to center your team around sun, but in game it's probably the easiest support there is to give in and it doesn't become good, it becomes one of the hardest things to stop in the tier often ohko'ing more than half a team and 2hko'ing the rest no prediction required, all moves 100% acc.

I can't argue with the fact that victreebel's sun set is purely terrible when sun is not up (although sludge bomb is still nowhere near weak). But I don't think it matters that much as the only times you'll encounter those situations are if you don't run a sunny day team or your sun is depleted.

This is the reason right here that Bell cannot rise very high on the rankings; it's 100% reliant on team support, which is not a trait of, say, B ranks. The higher ranks should be the ones providing team support, not the other way around.

Also you mentioned that sucker punchers dont apply to Victreebell since it has sleep powder; the most powerful sucker puncher in the tier is immune to it, and Ludicolo can certainly chew Kangaskhan's non-STAB sucker. I've also played sun for a good two hundred games on p much the same team ( Don't kill me Deej and the Sunshade Co. ) and I wouldnt run Sleep Powder in the first place; that's better left for Exeggutor. If you're going to use Victreebell on a sun team, you should abuse growth like there's no tomorrow.

Again, Victreebell is a beast under the sun no doubt. Omastar is even more terrifying in rain, and it's ranked B flat in OU solely because it's shit without the weather. Victreebell without sun, on the other hand, is a pile of shit that has been shat in the fall and reveals itself once the snow melts; B-

 

[Punchshroom]

On the topic of Klinklang, I'd like to compare it to a fellow setup sweeper in Lilligant, in that they both have a boosting move that increases speed and power, have limited 2-move coverage (that proves just enough), and have usable typings to find setup opportunities (Gears sets up on Normals / Flyings, Lilli sets up on Waters / Grounds). The main difference between the two in terms of functionality is that Lilligant has much stronger early / mid-game presence since it can toss out Sleep Powders or LO Giga Drains or even switch directly into threats without jeopardizing its chances of setup later, while Klinklang is more resilient to priority and can evade Scarfers. While I support a rise for Klinklang to A+, I wouldn't advocate it for S.

Pretty much most of what has been said about Victreebel has already been said, but Ima talk about it anyway. As utterly monstrous as Victreebel under the Sun is, ultimately the cost of running it is far too much to warrant such a huge rise: slapping a Victreebel on a team is by no means as easy as slapping a Ludicolo on a team. Ludicolo not only still presents itself as a notable threat even outside of Rain since it still has access to its wide coverage, but also has the bulk to set up Rain Dance itself if need be (also it can just Giga Drain back lost health); Victreebel on the other hand is completely neutered outside of Sun, and its lack of bulk, pre-Sun offensive presence, and lack of recovery (because who can afford Giga Drain on a Victreebel?) means it won't find even half as much opportunities to set up Sunny Day as Ludi sets up Rain, meaning Victreebel usually needs to let its teammates do some of the heavy lifting for it, and also makes it less flexible for team structures. While Kabutops is also too frail to set up Rain which would also turn it into a monster, Tops at least maintains high offensive presence and of course even offers utility to its teammates (all Victreebel offers in terms of utility is soaking up Toxic Spikes, which is admittedly great for Sun teams).

 

[Syncrasy]

Vivillon--> A-

I feel like vivillon is a very underrated mon in the meta right now. Flying+grass coverage(hurricane and gigadrain) is really nice this meat game as the only resist are steels and some electric types(sap sipper Zeb,Rotomfan,Av electriver?). With the help of Sleep powder and Quiver Dance it can find multiple times in a battle to set up on bulkier mons. Oh yeah did i even mention it gets Compound eyes, which basically means moves like Hurricane and sleep powder which has a somewhat unreliable to a nice >90% accuracy. Hurricane also has a nice 30% chance to confuse and we all know how nice that is( cough cough MegaPidgeot Suspect). SR do hinder this little butterfly a little but has nice hazard control at the moment with mons like xatu,prinplup,and claydol which pairs quite nicely with Vive.LO is also a nice item on Vive as it allows it to get some nice 2HKO it wouldn't have gotten if it was running sash/lefties(which i honestly thing is a bad item on this but to each his own)

Calcs

252 SpA Life Orb Vivillon Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mawile: 147-173 (48.3 - 56.9%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Vivillon Hurricane vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Klinklang: 156-183 (54.9 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
w/ some prior damage and hazards ohko it or just weaken it w/ one hurricane then beta it latter with a plus one Hurricane.
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Vivillon Giga Drain vs. 40 HP / 216+ SpD Lanturn: 221-263 (55.1 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Vivillon Hurricane vs. 104 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Magmortar: 188-224 (59.3 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
almost dies after SR and 2 kill it if u don't set up
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Vivillon Hurricane vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Bouffalant: 285-335 (76.2 - 89.5%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
spike or some prior damage helps kill off
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Vivillon Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Archeops: 192-226 (65.9 - 77.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

these calcs don't even count you sleeping them then proceeding to set up more but didn't want to include that if people thought it "too ideal or something.

sorry for any typos while typing this just doing this b4 bed

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

Sash Vivillon is a great way to cheese some kills, but not sure if it's an A/A- rank mon. Lanturn is still quite popular, and so is Klinklang.

Speaking about Lanturn, it can drop a rank or two now. A- seems fitting for it. Magneton has been gone for a while which caused it to lose its main niche. It's easy to take advantage of Lanturns lack of offensive presence and predictability and most teams are prepared for it now. Yes it handles Fletchinder and Klinklang to an extent, although the first will just leave you burned and crippled while the latter can easily break through a weakened Lanturn. Which is easy enough to do with Lanturn having no reliable recovery, being vulnerable to all entry hazards and being very slow. In general the mons it's supposed to check can get around it with coverage moves (Magmortar, Pyroar) or simply by slapping a Toxic on it (Regirock, Carracosta). Lanturn is also setup fodder for CM sweepers like Uxie and Musharna which are popular atm with Sneasel gone. It just doesn't have enough useful perks in the current meta. Against any decent player Lanturns predictability (both set-wise and when it's switching in because of the limited mons it comes in on safely) and passivity can make it a huge momentum killer and even a liability. Blocking Volt Switch is also hardly relevant as the only common users are Rotom and Lanturn itself. Definitely not an A+ mon.

On a side note, Tangela and Vileplume should switch ranks. Tangela used to be good in BW but with Knock Off being a thing it's simply not a good mon anymore. Vileplume has always been the better mon anyways. And at least it forces Sawk to predict and click something else than CC or Knock Off. Banded CC can 2HKO Tangela after rocks regardless without even having to Knock Off its Eviolite.