Serious Death Penalty

The country I live in, Australia, has a rather peculiar system that may not be obvious at first sight.

The death penalty is obviously not carried out here, and the police, etc. are actually quite liberal and not as strict. However, the people and media in Australia have a strong influence. If a murderer that was convicted 20 or 30 years ago is about to leave jail, the media (especially A Current Affair) would immediately regurgitate the footage and conviction of the murderer, and the victim's family would issue statements, and then hordes of people on social media would sympathise with the victim's family, and the murderer would go back to jail. If a murderer is found innocent, due to persistence by the media and the murderer's family to start up the case, the government would immediately issue a formal apology and treat the murderer very nicely. Therefore, having an innocent person being kept forever in jail is very rare.

Australia has a good system, in which the people and the media have a strong influence, and this system is certainly much better than the death penalty. Imo this is my opinion on a good alternative to the death penalty, and you're free to correct or criticise me, I may be wrong.
This policy strikes me as pretty weird. Really strikes me as tactics where you hit people below the belt emotionally, and what happens to the potential criminal follows from the wrong kind of pressure. Especially given how social media is involved, and the people jumping on the bandwagon tend to only have a small piece of the picture. Quotes get taken out of context, stuff gets thrown around, and enough angry people and a hashtag get the momentum that no amount of reason would change their sentiments. People get misrepresented on both sides, and no one really wins. At least, that's how this kind of controversy tends to go here.

The situation where the murderer goes free (the social media upheaval brought the case up, where upon further scrutiny there might have been evidence exonerating him) is a good consequence, but the other one just screams witch hunt over a man who may have served his 20-30 years of time and the government deemed ready to return to civilian life. What if, in the first case, the murderer was found guilty after the case was brought up again? With sufficient evidence I'm sure people would calm down about the whole thing, but I can imagine many cases where a lot of them wouldn't. Of course the victim's family matters, they're directly involved, and they will most likely be involved in the court case. But outsourcing any part of the judicial process to the media or to a swath of people who don't know anything seems like it's just asking for trouble.
 
I believe in the death penalty for the fact that there is 0 chance of reform for certain disgusting individuals. I also believe in it because I don't believe we should be feeding those aforementioned individuals. Of course it should only remain reserved strictly for the very severe and extreme cases. The punishment also needs to be swifter, so I believe death row needs a reform.
 
A Missouri inmate who sexually attacked a 19-year-old woman before tying her to a cemetery tree and killing her was executed Tuesday after the U.S. Supreme Court and the governor declined to intervene.

In a final written statement, Zink said he hoped his execution would bring peace to the family of the woman he killed, Amanda Morton. "I offer my sincerest apology to Amanda Morton's family and friends for my actions."

He added a message to other inmates on death row.

"For those who remain on death row, understand that everyone is going to die. Statistically speaking, we have a much easier death than most. So I encourage you to embrace it and celebrate our true liberation before society figures it out and condemns us to life without parole and we too will die a lingering death."

Just months before the slaying, Zink had been released from a Texas prison after serving 20 years on rape, abduction and escape charges. Fearing that his drunken fender-bender with Morton could violate his parole and send him back to prison, Zink abducted Morton, taking her to a motel.

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/6023...death-row-inmate-presses-appeals-clemency-bid
 
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tehy

Banned deucer.
A Missouri inmate who sexually attacked a 19-year-old woman before tying her to a cemetery tree and killing her was executed Tuesday after the U.S. Supreme Court and the governor declined to intervene.

In a final written statement, Zink said he hoped his execution would bring peace to the family of the woman he killed, Amanda Morton. "I offer my sincerest apology to Amanda Morton's family and friends for my actions."

He added a message to other inmates on death row.

"For those who remain on death row, understand that everyone is going to die. Statistically speaking, we have a much easier death than most. So I encourage you to embrace it and celebrate our true liberation before society figures it out and condemns us to life without parole and we too will die a lingering death."

Just months before the slaying, Zink had been released from a Texas prison after serving 20 years on rape, abduction and escape charges. Fearing that his drunken fender-bender with Morton could violate his parole and send him back to prison, Zink abducted Morton, taking her to a motel.

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/6023...death-row-inmate-presses-appeals-clemency-bid
in other news, today a death sentence was applied to a rapist, abductor, and drunk driver who didn't deserve to die...

this is not meant to suggest he deserved to die, it's just that this doesn't expose a serious problem with the death penalty as a whole (since he shouldn't have been given the death penalty at all), and this specific problem isn't much of one considering what a terrible guy he was in the first place. didn't deserve to die, but it's not outrageous that he did. at worst it shows that the death penalty is sometimes mis-applied, but this is such a mild mis-application...

now that I think, why did he sexually assault the woman he killed? if it was just to silence her so he wouldn't go back to jail, why sexually assault her? that strikes me just raping her because he could and he'd enjoy it, which......................................................................never mind, he deserved the death penalty

edit: i read the above post as critical of the death penalty...if it wasn't I apologize haha
 
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I find it very difficult to support the death penalty in the vast majority of cases. It should be an option that those condemned to life without parole can choose if they feel it is preferable. Hopefully the number of innocent people executed can be reduced that way, as someone innocent who holds out hope that a reinvestigation will find them innocent could choose not to undergo the death penalty.

As far as methods go, I can only condone nitrogen asphyxiation. Relatively fast and inexpensive and totally painless. Unfortunately there's a lot of stigma and misinformation surrounding inert gas asphyxiation, so actual deployment is likely to be a considerable challenge.
 

LonelyNess

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Even ignoring the potential for innocent people to be wrongly accused, imprisoned, and executed (which is so terrible, it alone should be enough to be rid of the death penalty), the value of human life is immeasurable, even the life of a murderer.

There are murderers who have contributed more to humanity than many of us ever will via writing novels, achieving acedemic success, etc... there is no reason to snuff out this potential just to placate the feelings of the victim's family. If it makes them feel better lie to them about how the murderer is dead, for all I care. Such a base desire for revenge is frankly disgusting, and right up there with the "fucked up"-ness of the murder itself. Dont respond with killing with more killing.

Yes, they should be quarantined from society, because they are unfit to live among the masses, but they're still people for fucks sake.
 
the value of human life is immeasurable, even the life of a murderer.
The value of someone's life is how much respect he attaches to it and to others, taking other people's lives for the sake of lust and hatred makes it worth less than zero, we as civilized humans stop from stooping so low in the sense of treating him as a negative (torture, prolonged pain, brutal execution) and remove him in a way a dignified manner.
There are murderers who have contributed more to humanity than many of us ever will via writing novels, achieving acedemic success, etc...
I have never killed anyone in my life, neither have you or anyone in this thread, that alone is worth infinitely more than whatever they may or may not contribute inside prision, novels and self acheivement will never erase their trangressions or elevate them above us. You are worth more than that.

there is no reason to snuff out this potential just to placate the feelings of the victim's family.
We never snuffed out anything, they did it to themselves, they committed their crimes fully aware, intentionally, knowingly, it's time to recognize the victims family justice and right to peace instead of committing another crime and value the life of the murderer above their needs.
 
I feel quite strongly about the death penalty and I feel it is ridiculous and I can't believe an advanced country like the United States still has the death penalty. Take a look at all the countries that still have the death penalty:



The blue countries having no death penalty, the green ones having no death penalty except for extremely exceptional cases (such as war crimes), the orange ones having no death penalty on practice but only on paper, and the red countries still having the death penalty. Look at those countries: African countries, Asian countries, Belarus and the US. Now, I don't wanna offend anyone in those countries but none of those countries except US are western countries. I think that shows something, at least. I feel like US is so different from all other western countries regarding politics, death penalty being one of the subjects.

Now, death penalty to me simply for ethical/moral reasons shouldn't exist. I do not believe in killing people for whatever reason. If murderers deserve to be killed, then what about the judge who sentences a criminal to the death penalty?

Also, the risk of killing an innocent person is absolutely not worth it. Executing 10000 criminals at the cost of executing 1 innocent man is absolutely disgusting. I have done a bit of research on this a few years ago for a school project and there have been cases before of people being found innocent after the execution.

The death penalty isn't exactly practical either, in fact it costs more for the government than a life sentence. So I don't really see a benefit either.
 
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I'm pretty sure it's better statistically to quote crime rates than point to a colored graph and call this advanced and this not. Also is country specific, I'm sure a bullet or a sword swing will cost less than multiple appeals, years in death row and then using chemicals that don't work.
 
We never snuffed out anything, they did it to themselves, they committed their crimes fully aware, intentionally, knowingly, it's time to recognize the victims family justice and right to peace instead of committing another crime and value the life of the murderer above their needs.
lol good one, gotta love the old "it's not our fault we injected this man with a lethal chemical, we couldn't help it"

classic

For real tho these two lines are a sickening atrocity. Who's to say that life without parole won't bring a victim's family peace? Or that killing another human being will? How on earth do you call not killing a criminal a crime? This is actually disgusting, this notion that a society should be expected to carry out the practice of killing its own citizens. What twisted world do you live in where the death of another is a family's "need"? pathetic
 
I'm pretty sure it's better statistically to quote crime rates than point to a colored graph and call this advanced and this not. Also is country specific, I'm sure a bullet or a sword swing will cost less than multiple appeals, years in death row and then using chemicals that don't work.
That wasn't my argument, just an example that US is a bit different than the rest of the western world, politics wise.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jun/20/california-death-penalty-execution-costs

I guess but unless you wanna completely overhaul the US legal system it's still gonna be a ton. And in fact it's gonna be hard to change because you wanna be extremely sure that someone on death row is guilty.
 
lol good one, gotta love the old "it's not our fault we injected this man with a lethal chemical, we couldn't help it"

classic

For real tho these two lines are a sickening atrocity. Who's to say that life without parole won't bring a victim's family peace? Or that killing another human being will? How on earth do you call not killing a criminal a crime? This is actually disgusting, this notion that a society should be expected to carry out the practice of killing its own citizens. What twisted world do you live in where the death of another is a family's "need"? pathetic
It's not a fault, it's a just punishment. He committed a crime and took someone elses life, what part of that do you not understand? Life in parole? Great let's just skip the article I quoted just a day ago about a man who spent 20 years in prision only to come out and commit even a worse crime. Locking someone forever does not mean the world is safe. I can give rates about inmates fleeing and controlling criminal enterprises behind bars if you want.
 
That wasn't my argument, just an example that US is a bit different than the rest of the western world, politics wise.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jun/20/california-death-penalty-execution-costs

I guess but unless you wanna completely overhaul the US legal system it's still gonna be a ton. And in fact it's gonna be hard to change because you wanna be extremely sure that someone on death row is guilty.
Lemme ask you a question, what do you think should we or Mexico/DEA should have done with El Chapo, the billionaire drug lord who not only continued to run, expand a criminal enterprise (drugs, murderds, etc.) and turn the "life sentence" facility he was in into the Ritz Hotel, he escaped, twice. How many people do you think he ruined directly and indirectly just to allow him to live on when he has clearly no respect or regard for human lives?
 

LonelyNess

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The value of someone's life is how much respect he attaches to it and to others, taking other people's lives for the sake of lust and hatred makes it worth less than zero, we as civilized humans stop from stooping so low in the sense of treating him as a negative (torture, prolonged pain, brutal execution) and remove him in a way a dignified manner.


I have never killed anyone in my life, neither have you or anyone in this thread, that alone is worth infinitely more than whatever they may or may not contribute inside prision, novels and self acheivement will never erase their trangressions or elevate them above us. You are worth more than that.



We never snuffed out anything, they did it to themselves, they committed their crimes fully aware, intentionally, knowingly, it's time to recognize the victims family justice and right to peace instead of committing another crime and value the life of the murderer above their needs.

1. If the value of your life depends on how you respect your own and others, does that not make your life worthless because you value a murderer's life to be so? And what about people who live legally but could care less about the life of anyone else?

2. Every human life is equal. Period. Some humans are not more equal than others. You don't lose your humanity by committing any act. Did you even read animal farm?

3. The "he did it to himself" argument reeks of desperation to justify unjustifiable actions....
 
Lemme ask you a question, what do you think should we or Mexico/DEA should have done with El Chapo, the billionaire drug lord who not only continued to run, expand and turn the "life sentence" facility he was in into the Ritz Hotel, he escaped, twice. How many people do you think he ruined directly and indirectly just to allow him to live on when he has clearly no respect or regard for human lives?
I think he wouldn't have escaped in a prison in the US or the UK or similar countries.

Also, do you think it's fine to execute 1000 criminals at the cost of executing 1 innocent man?
 
1. If the value of your life depends on how you respect your own and others, does that not make your life worthless because you value a murderer's life to be so? And what about people who live legally but could care less about the life of anyone else?

2. Every human life is equal. Period. Some humans are not more equal than others. You don't lose your humanity by committing any act. Did you even read animal farm?

3. The "he did it to himself" argument reeks of desperation to justify unjustifiable actions....
1. The people who couldn't care less kept their opinions to themselves, they didn't pick up an axe and chop children/women/defensless people, rape them, murder them, torture them.

2. Which is we ascribe equal rights to everyone regardless of origin/color or creed, but should someone decide that someone's life is his to take and is worthless and acts on it, he forfiets he's right to live.

3. Unjustifiable according to whom? Murder is defined as unlawful killing.

I think he wouldn't have escaped in a prison in the US or the UK or similar countries.

Also, do you think it's fine to execute 1000 criminals at the cost of executing 1 innocent man?
Lesser chance of escape, big assumption but fine, what about the other parts? I come from another country an I believe that unless the crime was witnessed in public, self confessed (not under duress) or caught on tape, he shouldn't receive the maximum penalty.
 
Idk guys,

I feel that Wars are ruthlessly more evil than Death Penalties. Since in Death Penalties, we atleast know that the person is guilty. But during Wars countless innocent civilians and military folks are killed, just because they are defending their own resources?

Its a cruel world, where we kill the innocent and save the guilty?
 

LonelyNess

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The rights of humans are inalienable. For those not familiar with the term:

Inalienable: (adj) unable to be taken away from or given away by the possessor.

It doesnt say "unable to be taken away from the possesser unless society deems that you've done something super duper bad".

Nothing you do makes you not human.
 
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Lesser chance of escape, big assumption but fine, what about the other parts? I come from another country an I believe that unless the crime was witnessed in public, self confessed (not under duress) or caught on tape, he shouldn't receive the maximum penalty.
First two are definitely not 100% evidence.
1) witnesses can be unreliable / lie / remember wrong / etc.
2) confession can be tortured, physically or mentally, sometimes they just wanna get it over with, mentally ill, etc.
3) tape can technically be faked
 
super duper bad
Great, let's just sugar coat rape, torture, murder for all those bleeding hearts out there, I'm sure all those genocidal maniacs being on trial right now would appreciate your kindness and heartfelt human compassion for them...
 

Kinneas

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I feel like this is going around in circles now but I just can't understand this mentality that some people have, that once someone has committed a heinous crime then that automatically gives them (or society I guess they are arguing) the green light to commit an equally heinous crime in retaliation. Like somehow you're exempt from your own argument that killing people is so bad that we kill people for it.

I'm trying to see it from the other side, and it seems like what most people arguing for the death penalty are saying is that once somebody takes the life of another person, they forfeit their own right to be treated as a human being, or right to live, or something along these lines.

I have to fundamentally disagree with that line of thinking and it has nothing to do with the rights of the criminal at all, but how I would expect a society of rational, virtuos actors to behave. I think a lot of people would agree with me, most of the world, in fact, that nobody should be killing anyone, except in self defense, and someone locked up behind bars isn't a danger to anyone except in very exceptional circumstances.

But even if you accept for a moment that a murderer forfeits his own right to live, we come back to the age old adage: Quo Warranto? By what right? By what right does that give you to then ignore your own moral rules and murder someone?

I know a lot of people don't think these kind of thought experiments lead to any kind of insight applicable to real life, but just try to picture this in a real life scenario for a moment. Imagine a murderer has been found guilty and he is sitting in his cell. In fact we know he did it, it was live on TV or whatever, 100% guilty. But his execution isn't until next week and he's just sitting around being alive despite us having a world view that he's forfeited his right to life already. The prison guard decides to take matters into his own hands and slits the throat of the criminal in the dead of night. This is still murder, it's still a life taken. There's no way to justify it. So either the criminal still has a right to life, or the guard still hasn't gained the authority to take a life. Now apply this to the execution that would happen a week later. Where does the right to take a life come from then? Does the executioner at some point gain it? Does a certain amount of people coming together in a room and agreeing that someone should be executed somehow give them the right to do it? I don't think it does.

By the way, this is all still ignoring the most important argument against the death penalty that's been brought up countless times: that as long as the criminal justice system is fallible then innocent lives will be taken, and there is no way to justify that, ever.
 

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