Banning Leppa Berry

[tennisace]

Another endless battle loop was already found, even after Heal Pulse was banned. This one takes advantage of the fact that if you fling a berry, it activates the effect. It's essentially the same as the Trick + Leppa + harvest shenanigans.

This brings up my point: why are we bothering with this cat and mouse game? Leppa Berry is not a recommended item choice on any set, and its utility is EXTREMELY marginal. Any Pokemon that you would think could use Leppa Berry much prefers having an item (Ho-oh and Entei the two examples that came up).

I think it's in our best interest to simplify endless battle clause to just a Leppa Berry and Heal Pulse ban. That way you can no longer either replenish your opponent's PP or their HP, keeping an endless battle from happening in the first place.

 

[IronBullet]

Supporting this. Like Agent Gibbs mentioned in the previous thread, there will be pretty much no collateral damage from banning Leppa Berry and it'll take care of the endless battle problem in a simple way. It isn't a recommended item on any set, which makes the argument that Leppa Berry has competitive use outside of intentionally creating endless battles very weak really. Outside of very situational circumstances it's always better to use Leftovers or something else.

There's no way to cause an endless battle without Leppa Berry as ultimately either you or the opponent will lose to Struggle. The only other way to keep either alive is by using Heal Pulse, which has already been banned. So I agree that it's the best way to free ourselves of any more such issues by performing a straight ban of a gimmicky item which no one uses, rather than forming any more complex bans. A loophole has already been discovered for the latest one and there's always the possibility that more will still be in the future.

 

[The Grand Babido]

i used this squad a few times when i was a frontier brain: http://pastebin.com/NHVvBMGv

the baton pass clause already catches this squad, but i am just sharing an example of using this item in a competitive fashion. however, its competitive use ends right there i think, and if you are able to pass rock polish and aqua ring there are a billion better receivers than an exeggutor with unlimited PPs which will eventually hit +6/+6/+6/+6/+6 and sweep... or run the opponent out of recover PP and then sweep... or just get taunted and lose. but this doesn't matter anyway cause of the baton pass clause. i assume u can still attempt this strategy with a smeargle though...

so yeah, there have been strategies devised where leppa berry has a specific niche and where the user is actually looking to win, but these strategies are basically non-existent and i haven't seen another squad attempt such a strategy.

i always thought it would be cool if u were like 5-4 up in SPL and the deadline was 1 hour away to bring an endless battle squad and play out the game past the deadline cause you didn't feel u could beat your opponent. is that competitive?

not sure why i put a xatu instead of an espeon on this team. not sure why i'm even posting here. just wanted to share the squad i think, and that leppa berry is not all bad.

 

[kokoloko]

like i said in the old thread, leppa berry was a thing cause it won deo-s magic coat wars back in bw. no idea if it still is.

i don't really care if it goes or not tbh but it's more than somewhat silly to ban two near useless things when everyone just loves jumping on the "minimalistic bans to please PR" wagon, especially while shit like baton pass, which has actually brought about a few broken strats has been jumped through loops and hoops to keep around. not to mention the fact that the big elephant in the room when it comes to banning scald is also PR.

i'd just add "fling +whatever" to the existing endless battle clause. i was under the impression we would deal with these cases are they arose anyway.

 

[ryan]

Why not keep playing this cat and mouse game? I don't think I've seen a good reason yet why it's better to ban Leppa Berry altogether than continue to ban these things as they pop up.

 

[IronBullet]

hollywood wouldn't it save time? Assuming it carries on like this, every time a new loophole is found the person will post a new thread here after which it will presumably take a few days to be implemented. Simply banning Leppa Berry will put the whole issue to rest right now, and with nearly zero collateral damage. Instead of spending time in the future discussing endless battle again we can spend that time on more pressing policy issues. If we could manage possible loopholes more quickly in the future, maybe by taking them directly to Zarel so that they can be implemented promptly rather than starting another PR discussion, then yeah I would be all for it. I still think it would be much more simple and efficient to just ban Leppa Berry though.

And koko, the reason as to why we've gone to great lengths to keep BP around is because it is actually a legitimate strategy when you remove the broken aspects of it. Dry passing or passing single boosts are common and viable enough to retain, while there is pretty much no point to keeping Leppa Berry around. Example like Heist's are basically non-existent, and even the specific one he posted is useless now because of BP clause. The SPL situation is also so situational; what are the chances that one will actually get a chance to use Leppa Berry to stretch the battle endlessly? It would be better to make an effort to win the match rather than rely on gimmicky tactics which will almost never be successful.

 

[Zarel]

I think that since we have Endless Battle Clause in AG, we should be very careful about its collateral damage.

Honestly, cat-and-mouse is kind of fun, I'm loving the kinds of creative sets I'm seeing. If you guys are worried about the time wasted in PR threads specifically, I can just skip asking for approval on any ban that involves Leppa Berry.

I'm adding to the banlist:
- Fling + Leppa Berry
- Trace + Leppa Berry
- Assist + Leppa Berry

Honestly, I've never gotten mad about having to add more things to Endless Battle Clause, just impressed. I'll be especially impressed if someone finds a way to get an infinite cycle after these latest bans.

Even if someone manages to find a way to keep an opponent alive indefinitely without any of: Heal Pulse, Leppa Berry + Bestow/Trick/Switcheroo, and Leppa Berry + Fling. PM me; just that would be enough to impress me.

 

[Zarel]

New plan: I'm also unbanning Heal Pulse from AG only (it's still banned in all other singles tiers), because AG is a tier for screwing around. If anyone can find a way to get an endless battle with all of these restrictions, I'll be very impressed; please PM me. As a recap, these are the current bans in Endless Battle Clause in AG:

- Leppa Berry + Recycle/Harvest
- Leppa Berry + Assist(Recycle)/Trace(Harvest)
- Leppa Berry + Trick/Switcheroo/Bestow
- Leppa Berry + Fling

edit:
- Magician + Skill Swap

 

[Zarel]

I have a new, less-invasive ban proposal for AG that allows Leppacycling without allowing endless battles:

AG Endless Battle Clause:

- Leppa Berry ++ Heal Pulse
- Leppa Berry ++ Truant ++ Entrainment
- Leppa Berry + Fling
- Leppa Berry ++ Magician/Thief/Trick/Switcheroo + Fling
- Leppa Berry ++ Pain Split + healing move

(the point behind this is to allow Leppacycling but ban any method of keeping the opponent from Struggling - Heal Pulse is obvious, Truant/Protect cycling is straightforward, Fling Leppa is reasonably straightforward, Pain Split + healing move is a poor main's Heal Pulse)

n.b. "++" means that they're banned even on different Pokémon in the same team, "+" means they can't be on the same Pokémon.

To recap,
non-AG Endless Battle Clause:

- Leppa Berry ++ Recycle
- Leppa Berry ++ Harvest
- Heal Pulse

(the point behind the first two bans are to ban Leppacycling; Heal Pulse is in case someone finds a way around it)

If anyone can find a legitimate way to get an endless battle with either of the above rulesets, I will give you Confirmed status on PS (It makes PS's spam detection system much less likely to consider a spammer, for instance you won't get locked for using proxies etc) and an achievement if I ever get around to implementing achivement on PS. (Outdated, see my latest challenge)

 

[Agent Gibbs]

The amount of trouble we're going through here to preserve a crappy item just astounds me.

 

[Mr.378]

I agree. We have always gone with the most simple solution in the past to avoid complex bans, why should this be any different? The Leppa Berry is in almost all cases a useless item that may come in to play on a very rare occasion but in most cases it's only use is to eat up your item slot. Going through all of these weird hoops just to save it goes against the banning philosophy we have always had for no real gain.

 

[ryan]

because literally why not. the person who handles the bans doesn't care and instead enjoys when people find new ways to cause endless battles with our restrictions.

yes, it's a crappy item. no, we don't NEED to allow it. but why not? the real gain is allowing that crappy item at absolutely no expense at all to any of us.

 

[IronBullet]

Well I think there is some expense in continuing to allow Leppa Berry, and that's the unnecessary time that we will be potentially wasting on discussing it in the future, however unlikely it is that another issue will come up. I'm just saying that banning Leppa Berry will put the whole thing to rest right now, and we won't have to spend any more time discussing a pointless item or endless battle problems.

I understand the issue of collateral damage in AG though, so I guess if Zarel feels it's prudent to be careful about doing an outright ban then that's good enough for me, as long as we can promptly fix any additional issues without going through a PR thread. Plus if he gets a kick out of people coming up with creative sets to find loopholes then I wouldn't want to deny him that n_n

 

[doughboy]

If anyone can find a legitimate way to get an endless battle with either ruleset, I will give you Confirmed status on PS (It makes PS's spam detection system much less likely to consider a spammer, for instance you won't get locked for using proxies etc) and an achievement if I ever get around to implementing achivement on PS.

Done! In the OU Ladder replay I wasn't paying attention and messed up on turn 120 by not heal pulsing and not getting the mienshao back to full from 50%. That mistake meant I couldn't rest without letting it die. But it is pretty clear had I been paying attention I could have let it go on forever. My team gets around the first combination bans by using Skill Swap + Magician + Thief to eventually get the Leppa Berry. Since my Gothitelle is itemless, it technically does not have a Leppa Berry so it evades the Recycle+Leppa Berry ban. Magician + Skill Swap gets around the Leppa Berry + Trick / Switcheroo / Bestow / Fling bans. In order to get the opponent to take the Leppa Berry, I need Knock Off support + Thief Gothorita support as well to get rid of their item. The addition of Hoopa-Unbound to OU recently made things a lot easier! In Anything Goes, Knock Off Mega-Gengar can be used to ensure the certain pokemon do not have items, which is an upgrade from Thief Gothorita. I am also sure you could make a team more optimized than this.

Endless Battle Replay on OU Ladder: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.co/ou-250918275

Endless Battle Team

Hoopa-Unbound @ Leppa Berry
Ability: Magician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 HP
- Skill Swap
- Knock Off
- Zen Headbutt
- Drain Punch

Delphox (M) @ Leppa Berry
Ability: Magician
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Def / 0 SpD
- Skill Swap
- Fire Spin
- Grass Knot
- Psychic

Whimsicott @ Leppa Berry
Ability: Prankster
- Worry Seed
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Memento

Wobbuffet (M) @ Leppa Berry
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 52 HP / 232 Def / 224 SpD
Bold Nature
- Charm
- Safeguard
- Mirror Coat
- Counter

Gothitelle (M)
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 HP / 192 Def / 64 Spe
Bold Nature
- Thief
- Recycle
- Heal Pulse
- Rest

Gothorita
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thief
- Heal Pulse
- Recycle
- Rest

This team successfully evades all the bans that Zarel listed in that he listed in the first post. Sorry Zarel, but your "cat and mouse" game is not as difficult as you think. Within less than a day I was able to get around the bans, and I imagine if we go with further bans there still be problems. How do you patch this up, a Leppa Berry + Thief and Leppa Berry + Covet Ban? At this point we are using 6 bans and there still is a problemLetting Leppa Berry stay unbanned is a detriment to the ladder and PS!'s users, especially those who are still learning and A. might not understand how to play around this and B. are getting into the metagame and need to memorize our clauses. Leppa Berry should go, no matter how fun trolling with it and finding new ways to use it is :(

Also can I get confirmed status on my doughboy account thanks

edit: Another victim falls to "endless fun" team on the OU Ladder http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-250946625

 

[atomicllamas]

I thought we banned heal pulse in singles ?_?

 

[blarajan]

stuff

1) Heal Pulse was just banned in Singles overall, so you being able to do this was likely just fortuitous timing and improper implementation.
2) Your opponents respectively had Reflect / High Jump Kick / Stone Edge / Drain Punch Mienshao and an Aqua Jet Smeargle along with a Level 50 Fake Out / Last Resort Life Orb Ambipom. They deserved their fate.

 

[Zarel]

This team successfully evades all the bans that Zarel listed in that he listed in the first post. Sorry Zarel, but your "cat and mouse" game is not as difficult as you think. Within less than a day I was able to get around the bans, and I imagine if we go with further bans there still be problems. How do you patch this up, a Leppa Berry + Thief and Leppa Berry + Covet Ban? At this point we are using 6 bans and there still is a problemLetting Leppa Berry stay unbanned is a detriment to the ladder and PS!'s users, especially those who are still learning and A. might not understand how to play around this and B. are getting into the metagame and need to memorize our clauses. Leppa Berry should go, no matter how fun trolling with it and finding new ways to use it is :(

You misinterpreted my post. I've edited my post to be clearer about which two banlists you're trying to circumvent. Your team has both Leppa Berry and Heal Pulse, which is banned by both lists.

I confirmed your "doughboy" account, anyway, because it was my fault for not being clearer about that.

 

[doughboy]

You misinterpreted my post. I've edited my post to be clearer about which two banlists you're trying to circumvent. Your team has both Leppa Berry and Heal Pulse, which is banned by both lists.

I confirmed your "doughboy" account, anyway, because it was my fault for not being clearer about that.

Oh that's unfortunate :( I thought it got around the first list because heal pulse was not included on list, heal pulse was still legal on ladder, and it was a different way to the leppa berry on to Gothitelle without using Trick / Bestow / Switcheroo / Fling. I made a new squad to that faked dark spam with hoopa. People wanted to sack a poke to hoopa only to get trapped into an endless battle. It also had win cons versus offensive teams so it was not complete dead weight in a lot of matchups. That and more Knock Off users made it a ton better than the original squad. I'll post replays and the team for fun and for anyone who wants a go at endless battles (possibly) final hours.

Fake Dark Spam Endless Team

Shuckle @ Mental Herb
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 132 Def / 124 Spe
Bold Nature
- Knock Off
- Sticky Web
- Stealth Rock
- Encore

Bisharp @ Life Orb
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Iron Head
- Sucker Punch

Hoopa-Unbound @ Leppa Berry
Ability: Magician
EVs: 252 HP / 196 Def / 60 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 HP
- Skill Swap
- Knock Off
- Rest
- Block

Gothitelle (M)
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 HP / 192 Def / 64 Spe
Bold Nature
- Thief
- Recycle
- Heal Pulse
- Rest

Serperior @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Dragon Pulse
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Knock Off

Thundurus @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Thunder Wave

Replay 1: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-251003624
Replay 2: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-251014069

 

[MikeDawg]

"Wasting time" is an absurdly dramatic argument.

What does that even mean? Who is wasting time? What is "we"? What is the 30 minutes that a user might spent to make a long post detracting from? Is the RMT forum going to shit, because ironbullet doesn't have time to moderate it what with all of the leppa berry discussion?

Give me a break.

 

[Lasagne]

lmao what

 

[IronBullet]

I didn't mean "wasting time" in the sense that it's going to take months to resolve every time lol. I meant it's going to be unnecessary effort. Why're we going to this trouble of multiple complex bans to keep a crappy item around when we could do it more efficiently? We're leaving the possibility that more loopholes, however unlikely that is, will be discovered in the future, after which there'll be another PR thread with the same arguments, which is just pointless no? We can avoid all that right now by doing a straight ban. I did also say that as long as we can fix any additional issues promptly then I'm fine with it, which you seem to have discarded completely.

Btw regarding collateral damage in AG, couldn't we ban Leppa Berry in singles and allow it in AG (with Endless Battle clause) like we've done with Heal Pulse? It'll still allow people to screw around with Leppa in AG but it would end the problem permanently in singles.

 

[Zarel]

Okay, just for fun, I want to try an incredibly surgical approach.

Your team is banned if at least one Pokémon has Leppa Berry, and at least one Pokémon has ALL THREE of the following:

1. One of: Leppa Berry, Thief, Covet, Trick, Switcheroo, Pickpocket, Magician, Pickup, Assist
(intended to represent access to a Leppa Berry)

2. One of: Harvest, Trace, Skill Swap, Role Play, Recycle, Assist
(intended to represent access to a way to repeatedly use the Leppa Berry)

3. One of: Heal Pulse, Pain Split, Protect, Detect, Spiky Shield, King's Shield, Assist
(intended to represent access to a way to prevent the opponent from Struggling to death)

If anyone can get around this rule, I will also be giving them the Confirmed status. (Outdated, see my latest challenge)

Note that a team will only be banned if a Pokémon has ALL THREE, so if you find a hole in a single one of these three lists, you'll be able to Leppacycle.

 

[Vinc2612]

I like challenges. So you can confirm Vinc2612.

Hide

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-251052457

This method is based on double pickup, so me and my opponent shares the same leppa berry for infinity and beyonds. Note that this was just a test battle for the mecanics, I didn't make the best plays (should have kept one Block PP in case he tries to PPwast me, since in this case, rest is more useful). But otherwise it works as long as I get the trap.

The team can probably be optimized though, I just brought slightly different trappers so I can face more Pokémon.

Smeargle @ Focus Sash
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Spore
- Cosmic Power
- Baton Pass
- Mean Look

Gardevoir @ Leppa Berry
Ability: Trace
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Mean Look
- Rest
- Calm Mind
- Sleep Talk

Gourgeist-Small
Ability: Pickup
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Trick
- Skill Swap
- Confide
- Magic Coat

Gothitelle @ Leppa Berry
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Mean Look
- Role Play
- Rest
- Calm Mind

Mew @ Leppa Berry
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Block
- Role Play
- Iron Defense
- Rest

Landorus-Therian @ Leppa Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Role Play
- Block
- Rest
- Bulk Up

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

Okay, just for fun, I want to try an incredibly surgical approach.

Your team is banned if at least one Pokémon has Leppa Berry, and at least one Pokémon has ALL THREE of the following:

1. One of: Leppa Berry, Thief, Covet, Trick, Switcheroo, Magician, Pickup
(intended to represent access to a Leppa Berry)

2. One of: Harvest, Trace, Skill Swap, Recycle, Assist
(intended to represent access to a way to repeatedly use the Leppa Berry)

3. One of: Heal Pulse, Pain Split, Protect, Detect, Spiky Shield, King's Shield
(intended to represent access to a way to prevent the opponent from Struggling to death)

If anyone can get around this rule, I will also be giving them the Confirmed status.

Note that a team will only be banned if a Pokémon has ALL THREE, so if you find a hole in a single one of these three lists, you'll be able to Leppacycle.

Jynx (F) @ Leppa Berry
Ability: Dry Skin
- Water Pulse
- Recycle
- Mean Look
- Skill Swap

 

[doughboy]

Jynx (F) @ Leppa Berry
Ability: Dry Skin
- Water Pulse
- Recycle
- Mean Look
- Skill Swap

Doesn't this eventually die from struggle damage without a recovery move? Unless its BW rain.