Banning Leppa Berry

[reyscarface]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen5ou-76619

heres another way with harvest + sitrus and trappers, eo did the favor of makin the replay

 

[Zarel]

skup came up with the idea of Assist Whirlwind, now patched.

PoMMan and akelly96 came up with the idea of Imposter to replenish PP, now patched.

Afti and Karxrida and reyscarface came up with the idea of forcing the opponent to heal Struggle damage while constantly switching to avoid becoming stale, now patched.

A Pokémon is considered cornered if:
- it has no available moves other than Struggle
- OR a stale Pokémon used Assist Whirlwind on it
- OR it has been hit by a Struggle from a stale Pokémon on the turn it switched in
(at the beginning of a turn, if you have available moves other than Struggle, you are no longer cornered)

A Pokémon is considered stale if:
- it has gained a Leppa berry through any means besides starting with one (including but not limited to Harvest, Recycle, Pickup, Symbiosis, Bestow, Thief, Switcheroo, and Magician)
- OR it has been targeted with Fling Leppa Berry
- OR it is cornered and begins a turn with more HP than it the last turn it began
- OR it is cornered and begins a turn with as much HP as the last turn it began, and was not fully paralyzed, loafing around from Truant, or immobilized from Attract
- OR it uses Transform/Imposter against a stale Pokémon
(a Pokémon that becomes stale stays stale for the rest of the match)

If all active Pokémon are stale, the player whose team originally started with a Leppa Berry loses. If both or neither team started with a Leppa Berry, the team that had the first stale Pokémon wins.

I will be offering a custom avatar to the next person who can think of a way around this clause, other than Gen 1 Transform vs Transform, with a replay. A way around requires at least one player to be trying to end the battle, but be prevented from doing so.

 

[Isa]

Since gen 1 was mentioned - Transform vs. Transform results in stalemates since Transform replenishes PP and works on opposing Transformed mons. This is primarily an issue in Ubers where Transform Mew is a legit option (often not running any damaging moves).

 

[Afti]

(this doesn't actually work, whoops)

Mimic can also recover PP.

As such: in a Doubles match, corner the opponent's last Pokémon in a Harvest+Sitrus loop or something similar.

I haven't bothered to test this because this is fucking crazy and will absolutely never occur in a real game. It may or may not work. I may just be wasting my time. It's mostly just a fun exercise on paper. Basically, the assumption is that the no-longer-cornered language applies to Pokémon cornered by Struggle on switchin? This loop would take forever to set up, hence the lack of testing; Zarel, you implemented the clause, so I assume you can say whether or not the implementation would catch it.

It's also dependent on being able to Mimic Mimic-ed moves. I think that works?

This is mostly just me getting a kick out of doing this sort of thing because I'm a dweeb.

Field the following mons:

Breloom@Toxic Orb
whatever
-Mimic

Butterfree@Leftovers
lol
-Rage Powder

Gliscor@Toxic Orb
Espeon, Mt. Everest
-Mimic

Shroomish@Toxic Orb
rules lawyering is best lawyering
-Mimic

Okay, so here's how this works:

Opponent can't help but to Struggle and recover the HP through one of the established loops.

Turn 1: Butterfree uses Rage Powder. Breloom uses Mimic, gets Rage Powder.
Turn 2: Butterfree switches to Gliscor. Breloom uses Rage Powder.
Turn 3: Gliscor uses Mimic. Breloom uses Rage Powder.
Turn 4: Gliscor uses Rage Powder. Breloom switches to Shroomish.
Turn 5: Gliscor uses Rage Powder. Shroomish uses Mimic.
Turn 6: Gliscor switches to Breloom. Shroomish uses Rage Powder.
Turn 7: Breloom uses Mimic. Shroomish uses Rage Powder.
Turn 8: Breloom uses Rage Powder. Shroomish switches to Gliscor.
Turn 9: Breloom uses Rage Powder. Gliscor uses Mimic.
etc.

I'm sure you get how it goes from here? Keep looping Mimic-ed Rage Powders between your Pokémon, switching the older of the two once both of them know Rage Powder. You never switch both Pokémon in the same turn, thus meaning that there's never a time when they can both be stale simultaneously. Mimic retains the PP of the move it's replaced by, so you never run out of it either because you have more Rage Powders than its max PP.

As long as the opponent's attacks do less damage than Poison Heal recovers, you should be able to keep this up forever.

EDIT: Shit, the language about things staying stale forever wasn't there when I started to put this together! Sorry. False alarm.

SON OF EDIT: No, wait. I fixed it. The Mimic loop lives! The way this works now, you will never take a hit on the switchin because there's always something that's already in using Rage Powder.

 

[Vinc2612]

If there is no trap, there is no problem.

The scenario you are talking about is "his last Pokémon can't lose to struggle". Well... Then maybe it's time to forfeit? The same is true if your entire team can't break trough harden Breloom. Just forfeit instead of saying "I deserve the win he doesn't let me die"

 

[Afti]

I'm not pretending that this is actually a serious risk. If you manage to get caught in that loop, you should forfeit because you do deserve to lose.

Also, someone should probably come around and break your kneecaps because come on.

I just thought it was a fun problem to try and solve; that's all. I am - as I said - a dweeb.

EDIT: Okay, scratch the Mimic chaining. Apparently Mimic retains its own PP value, meaning that you can only keep the opponent Struggling for 96 turns.

 

[Ununhexium]

I'm not sure if this is an issue but you also left Pickpocket off of the list and it's basically the metric equivalent of Magician

 

[Quite Quiet]

Stacking enough immobility conditions on top of another doesn't result in a true endless battle, but you can slow down an opponents PP usage to pretty much nothing.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-251621254

 

[Arcticblast]

I'm not sure if this is an issue but you also left Pickpocket off of the list and it's basically the metric equivalent of Magician

Pickpocket requires the user to take a hit in order to steal an item

 

[Freeroamer]

Stacking enough immobility conditions on top of another doesn't result in a true endless battle, but you can slow down an opponents PP usage to pretty much nothing.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-251621254

Theoretically, if you trapped your opponents last mon in such a way, with the aid of a Fake Out user like a lvl1 aipom with a Leppa Berry you'd be able to switch in on Truant turns and Fake Out on their attacking turns, thus rendering them unable to use any actual PP at all and as far as I can see, that wouldn't contravene any of the other clauses regarding staleness or being cornered thanks to Lefties recovering more than the Fake Out damage. Mew is actually probably the best user of this thanks to Fake Out+Recycle+Recovery.

I can't test rn but the members you'd need are the Truant+Entrainment Durant, Trick+Lefties, and a really weak Leppa Berry Fake Out user. The conditions required would be that it was the opponents last mon, doesn't have any way of bypassing Flinch or doesn't inflict residual damage such as Rocky Helmet or Iron Barbs.

EDIT: I see the bit about loafing around from Truant, but being immobilised by Fake Out isn't there. Plus it wouldn't be cornered as its moves have PP, wasn't hit by Assist Whirlwind, and hasn't been hit by Struggle.

EDIT for below: Yeah true, you'd initiate an extremely long battle but not a "perfect" endless battle.

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

That doesn't actually work (I only know because I tried exactly this). Pickup only works if the opponent consumes an item, so you'd have to waste a Truant turn to Recycle the Leppa Berry, which would allow a free turn for the opponent to consume PP. It would serve to further prolong the stalling, but there remains a probability that the battle will eventually end.

 

[Afti]

Run four lv1 mons with Fake Out, Recycle, and a filler move. Play a Doubles game. Isolate a single mon on the opposing side with Truant and some form of passive recovery.

The purpose of the filler move is that it ensures you don't run out of Recycle PP at the same time as Fake Out PP. You use it once with each Pokémon.

Even turns need to be Truant turns.

This should be infinite if you do things exactly right? I may have made a mistake; if so, I apologize.

This is the setup:

Turn 1: Fake Out (1:15) / pkmn2 filler
Turn 2: switch to pkmn3 / switch to pkmn4
Turn 3: Fake Out (3:15) / pkmn4 filler
Turn 4: switch to pkmn2 / switch to pkmn1
Turn 5: Fake Out (2:15) / pkmn1 filler
Turn 6: switch to pkmn4 / switch to pkmn3
Turn 7: Fake Out (4:15) / pkmn3 filler
Turn 8: switch to pkmn1 / switch to pkmn2

Start using Recycle instead of the filler move after five repetitions of this cycle. This will ensure that you always have 5 more PP of Recycle than you do Fake Out - meaning that you'll never actually run out of either. Instead, this will happen:

Turn 1: Fake Out (1:10) / Recycle (2:5) [pkmn1 consumes Leppa, regains next round]
Turn 2: switch to pkmn3 / switch to pkmn4
Turn 3: Fake Out (3:10) / Recycle (4:5) [pkmn3 consumes Leppa, regains next round]
Turn 4: switch to pkmn2 / switch to pkmn1
Turn 5: Fake Out (2:10) / Recycle (1:5) [pkmn2 consumes Leppa, regains next round]
Turn 6: switch to pkmn4 / switch to pkmn3
Turn 7: Fake Out (4:10) / Recycle (3:5) [pkmn4 consumes Leppa, regains next round]
Turn 8: switch to pkmn1 / switch to pkmn2

and

Turn 1: Fake Out (1:5) / Recycle (2:10) [pkmn1 consumes Leppa, regains next round]
Turn 2: switch to pkmn3 / switch to pkmn4
Turn 3: Fake Out (3:5) / Recycle (4:10) [pkmn3 consumes Leppa, regains next round]
Turn 4: switch to pkmn2 / switch to pkmn1
Turn 5: Fake Out (2:5) / Recycle (1:10) [pkmn2 consumes Leppa, regains next round]
Turn 6: switch to pkmn4 / switch to pkmn3
Turn 7: Fake Out (4:5) / Recycle (3:10) [pkmn4 consumes Leppa, regains next round]
Turn 8: switch to pkmn1 / switch to pkmn2

This is unreasonably high-maintenance. Use anything in the wrong order and the endless battle loop is broken. If you want a log I advise you set up a bot.

(It doesn't have to be five, but five is a nice round number that's easy to work with and provides at least a bit of margin for error. You just need to make sure that you always have PP for both moves.)

 

[Alkov]

After checking through what moves/items that may lead to an endless battle, I noticed that a Trevenant is capable of using the move Block, Skill Swap (Harvest) and Trick(Sitrus Berry) of which may all lead to an endless battle if done in a right way. Unfortunately, I'm unable to test it out and have the replay posted here right now. When paired with another Pokemon such as Gothitelle with trapping ability such as Shadow Tag and Leppa Berry with Rest and Recycle, the opponent is forced to struggle yet unable to die if it manages to harvest sufficiently but an endless battle can happen.
Edit: Gothitelle can also use the move Tickle to lower the opponent's attack so as to create a weaker Struggle so that Leftovers can possibly be used instead of Leppa Berry with Rest and Recycle thus creating an endless battle without having to use that.

 

[Freeroamer]

After checking through what moves/items that may lead to an endless battle, I noticed that an Exeggutor is capable of using the move Block, Skill Swap (Harvest) and Bestow (Leppa Berry or Sitrus Berry) of which may all lead to an endless battle if done in a right way. The battle can be even extended to a dumber extend with the move Hypnosis. Unfortunately, I'm unable to test it out and have the replay posted here right now.

This would contravene the staleness rule once you bestowed the opponent a Leppa Berry and harvested yours back if I'm reading those rules correctly. Active pokemon means just the two pokemon in the battle right, not any pokemon still alive?

 

[Afti]

Because I am both a dweeb and, apparently, a fucking maniac, I went ahead and tested that Doubles Fake Out/Recycle/Truant loop.

It works.

View the cinematic event of the year!

Thrills! Chills! Kills! Watch as a Slaking sits on its ass for 145 fucking turns while a loop is set up!

Flinch: The Movie

 

[Vinc2612]

Congrats Zarel, I think you found a perfect way to prevent endless battles.

So yes, you kinda win. Kinda.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-251698053

what happens in this 42-turns replay if you're too lazy to watch

I get my Pokémon stale before the one of my opponent, allowing me to get the win without trying to play the game

 

[Bughouse]

Just add back in the Heal Pulse ban (or make it grayed out/fail vs a mon that is Struggling) and Vinc2612's concern goes away

but clever find ;)

 

[Zarel]

Yes, I actually did think of all of that. I went to sleep last night knowing that my win condition code was incomplete, but seriously I was up way too late and couldn't stay awake. I'll work on win conditions today.

Banning Heal Pulse doesn't deal with it; there are other ways to cause an infinite loop where the wrong side wins.

 

[ascriptmaster]

Perhaps we should defer stale status to not count the turn the struggling Pokemon switched in so you can't Healing Wish or Wish your own Pokemon into staleness. Sitrus might be a loophole for that though

 

[Zarel]

New changes, trying to reduce the amount of collateral damage:

A Pokémon has a confinement counter, which starts at 0:
- if it has no available moves other than Struggle: +1 confinement
- if it was forced to switch by a stale opponent before it could do its action for the turn: +1 confinement
- if it intentionally switched out the turn after it switched in against a stale Pokémon: +1 confinement
- if it shifts in Triples against a stale Pokémon: +1 confinement
- if it has gone 5 turns without losing PP (mimiced/transformed moves count only if no foe is stale): +1 confinement
- if it uses PP while not Transformed/Impostered: confinement reset to 0
- if it has at least 2 confinement, and begins a turn with at least as much HP than it had the last time its confinement counter was 0: confinement reset to 0, user becomes half-stale if not already half-stale, or stale if already half-stale

A Pokémon is also considered stale if:
- it has gained a Leppa berry through any means besides starting with one (including but not necessarily limited to Harvest, Recycle, Pickup, Symbiosis, Bestow, Thief, Switcheroo, and Magician)
- OR it has eaten a Leppa berry it isn't holding (including but not necessarily limited to Fling, Bug Bite, and Pluck)

If all active Pokémon are stale, the player whose team originally started with a Leppa Berry loses. If both or neither team has a Leppa Berry Pokémon, the battle ends in a tie.

I will be offering a custom avatar to the next person who can think of a way around this clause THAT NO ONE ELSE HAS THOUGHT OF YET, other than Gen 1 Transform vs Transform, with a replay. A way around requires at least one player to be trying to end the battle, but be prevented from doing so.

 

[Blitz]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-251822494

So here's an unintended consequence happening with the subsequent implementations to the Endless Battle clause. On turn 5, Curse Body activates on Keldeo's Scald, which is later withdrawn. The Endless Battle Clause message triggers in turn 7 when Keldeo is once again on the field and uses Scald for the second time. Seems to be a weird interaction between Curse Body and Choice items.

 

[Afti]

I haven't tested this yet, but it should work in theory: in generation I, if a Pokémon with Wrap is out of PP on all other moves, you could keep track of its Wrap PP with a team that's running two Ghost-types. If you switch while Wrap has zero PP remaining, it'll overflow to 63 PP, and the opponent will be forced to continue using it. Two Ghosts will never take damage from Wrap, and double-switching them lets you avoid using PP - so if you can take care of the minor detail of convincing last-mon Dragonite to use all its PP for all of its other attacks, you can hypothetically just keep swapping Gengar and Haunter out and the battle will never end.

EDIT: And here's the replay. Last turn, Onix's PP overflows to 63, after which the cycle will repeat.

 

[Zarel]

This is getting close to the final version:

A Pokémon has a confinement counter, which starts at 0:
- if it has no available moves other than Struggle: +1 confinement
- if it was forced to switch by a stale opponent before it could do its action for the turn: +1 confinement
- if it intentionally switched out the turn after it switched in against a stale Pokémon: +1 confinement
- if it shifts in Triples against a stale Pokémon: +1 confinement
- if it has gone 5 turns without losing PP (mimiced/transformed moves count only if no foe is stale): +1 confinement
- if it uses PP while not Transformed/Impostered: confinement reset to 0
- if it has at least 2 confinement, and begins a turn without losing at least 1% of its max HP from the last time its confinement counter was 0: confinement reset to 0, user becomes half-stale if not already half-stale, or stale if already half-stale

A Pokémon is also considered stale if:
- it has gained a Leppa berry through any means besides starting with one (including but not necessarily limited to Harvest, Recycle, Pickup, Symbiosis, Bestow, Thief, Switcheroo, and Magician)
- OR it has eaten a Leppa berry it isn't holding (including but not necessarily limited to Fling, Bug Bite, and Pluck)

Nearly everyone's given up on this version, and it doesn't seem to have any noticeable collateral damage.

 

[Isa]

I haven't tested this yet, but it should work in theory: in generation I, if a Pokémon with Wrap is out of PP on all other moves, you could keep track of its Wrap PP with a team that's running two Ghost-types. If you switch while Wrap has zero PP remaining, it'll overflow to 63 PP, and the opponent will be forced to continue using it. Two Ghosts will never take damage from Wrap, and double-switching them lets you avoid using PP - so if you can take care of the minor detail of convincing last-mon Dragonite to use all its PP for all of its other attacks, you can hypothetically just keep swapping Gengar and Haunter out and the battle will never end.

EDIT: And here's the replay. Last turn, Onix's PP overflows to 63, after which the cycle will repeat.

not truly "infinite" because wrap can miss when it's at 1 pp. likely to be very very lengthy, yes, but not truly infinite.

 

[Afti]

You're right: 2.25% chance on each rollover opportunity of Wrap missing and thus failing to rollover. As a tremendous pedant myself, I tip my hat to your Greater Pedantry.

FWIW it seems like it'd probably still be an edge case worth covering? A 2.25% chance of the loop breaking every 64 turns is, uh, still really obnoxious.

edit: 15%, not 2.25%, whoops. I was half asleep, was thinking that Wrap always has to continue at least once, didn't even remember that it has to have zero PP while continuing to roll over. 15%/64 turns is more reasonable; it's bearable given how contrived the scenario is. Also because fuck Wrap, and outplaying a Wrap team to this degree with a dead-weight party slot so you can make them suffer before their mathematically-inevitable loss is cool by me.