NP: Doubles OU Stage 2 - Monster | Mence is banned | Hoopa not Banned

[BLOOD TOTEM]

I've used Hoopa-U a bit and played against it a bit. Haven't found it broken, and frankly not even convinced it's top tier, but it seems totally usable on a more offensive team that supports it right.

The set I've been using:
Hoopa-Unbound @ Life Orb
Ability: Magician
EVs: 72 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 180 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Hyperspace Fury
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Drain Punch
- Protect

speed to outrun bisharp (and I have an extra point of creep, can definitely creep more easily) ... and I actually have a move to hit it, unlike most people lol. I don't find Hyperspace Hole all that useful as the most relevant Fighting type in the tier (that Hoopa outspeeds) is Scrafty anyway. Instead, HP Ice to hit Lando.

I disagree with this almost 100%

HP Ice is a majorly wasted slot. Hyperspace Hole is a clean 2HKO on Landorus-T so it can switch in at most one time. Running HP Ice means that you're forced to predict when Landorus is going to switch in and if you fuck up you hit something for pretty much no damage because HP Ice is weak as balls. I'm unsure how you can call any move that can cleanly OHKO Amoonguss not all that useful considering it's one of the staple defensive Pokemon in the tier. Comparing it to other special attackers we see that Sub Kyurem-B fails, Mega Gardevoir fails (with both Psyshock and Psychic) as well as (lol) Modest Life Orb Shaymin-S. It also has the advantage of BREAKING THROUGH PROTECT AND SUBSTITUTE so the Amoonguss can't even Protect and let it's teammate KO, it's forced to switch to a resist or die.

The move puts a lot of pressure on Substitute users since they can't use Protect to maintain their subs from attack, since it just breaks through both. Kyurem-B is taking up to 60% meaning you have to keep it above that threshold if you want it to be able to take on Hoopa, this is difficult when you consider you're losing 25% HP every time you click Substitute.
148+ SpA Life Orb Hoopa Psychic vs. 108 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 214-253 (51.1 - 60.5%) -- 91% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
lol sub Aegislash
188 Atk Life Orb Hoopa Bite vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 400-473 (123.4 - 145.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Why are you running Drain Punch when Bisharp wins 1v1?
Sash will OHKO with Knock Off, whilst LO is a roll to kill you from max and is guaranteed to KO after a round of LO recoil.

Drain Punch is also ass since it provides barely any useful coverage, most stuff is hit harder by STABs. In addition to this, it provides next to no recovery unless you hit a TTar, in which case you're probably playing a bad player or the ever zealous KyleCole.


I don't think it really has many options for a 3rd slot that are particularly enticing. Substitute, Taunt, Gunk Shot and based Ally Switch are all better picks before Drain Punch though.

 

[baconbagon]

I don't think it really has many options for a 3rd slot that are particularly enticing. Substitute, Taunt, Drain Punch and based Ally Switch are all better picks before Drain Punch though.

lol

 

[BLOOD TOTEM]

epic you found a typo!!!!! :))))

 

[baconbagon]

epic you found a typo!!!!! :))))

i was just pointing it out to you, calm down

 

[Checkmater]

Just out of curiosity, what's the consensus on how the vote's going to go?
How many votes does it need to be banned/unbanned?

 

[Bughouse]

I disagree with this almost 100%

HP Ice is a majorly wasted slot. Hyperspace Hole is a clean 2HKO on Landorus-T so it can switch in at most one time. Running HP Ice means that you're forced to predict when Landorus is going to switch in and if you fuck up you hit something for pretty much no damage because HP Ice is weak as balls. I'm unsure how you can call any move that can cleanly OHKO Amoonguss not all that useful considering it's one of the staple defensive Pokemon in the tier. Comparing it to other special attackers we see that Sub Kyurem-B fails, Mega Gardevoir fails (with both Psyshock and Psychic) as well as (lol) Modest Life Orb Shaymin-S. It also has the advantage of BREAKING THROUGH PROTECT AND SUBSTITUTE so the Amoonguss can't even Protect and let it's teammate KO, it's forced to switch to a resist or die.

The move puts a lot of pressure on Substitute users since they can't use Protect to maintain their subs from attack, since it just breaks through both. Kyurem-B is taking up to 60% meaning you have to keep it above that threshold if you want it to be able to take on Hoopa, this is difficult when you consider you're losing 25% HP every time you click Substitute.
148+ SpA Life Orb Hoopa Psychic vs. 108 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 214-253 (51.1 - 60.5%) -- 91% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
lol sub Aegislash
188 Atk Life Orb Hoopa Bite vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 400-473 (123.4 - 145.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Why are you running Drain Punch when Bisharp wins 1v1?
Sash will OHKO with Knock Off, whilst LO is a roll to kill you from max and is guaranteed to KO after a round of LO recoil.

Drain Punch is also ass since it provides barely any useful coverage, most stuff is hit harder by STABs. In addition to this, it provides next to no recovery unless you hit a TTar, in which case you're probably playing a bad player or the ever zealous KyleCole.


I don't think it really has many options for a 3rd slot that are particularly enticing. Substitute, Taunt, Gunk Shot and based Ally Switch are all better picks before Drain Punch though.

Yeah what am I talking about Dark/Fighting is a terrible coverage combo, you guys!! And how dare I want to have a move that hits Darkrai, Hydreigon, or any other Dark type in the tier. I mean clearly Dark/Psychic is much better coverage. It lets you hit Dark types for resisted damage and for zero damage too! It also, as I said before, does zero damage to the only common Fighting type Hoopa actually outruns, Scrafty. Moreover, Drain Punch deals that same 60-70% to KyuB you pointed out for Hyperspace Fury, and Kyu-B et al won't be Protecting against Hoopa-U anyway because it is perceived as a waste of a turn. So Drain Punch will do the same damage to Kangaskhan, Kyu-B, Heatran etc and also heal ~half of Hoopa's health.

Could I run Hyperspace Hole over HP Ice? Sure. Amoonguss is a valid reason to do so. I personally would rather OHKO Lando-T on the team /I/ was using. And can I outrun Lando-T? Absolutely. There's this thing called Tailwind and a thing that uses it that shits on Amoonguss called Talonflame.

In short, calm yourself down lmao. My set is fine.

 

[Pocket]

Guys, thoughts on Hoopa-U? I have some more replays of this djinn.
We are both innovatin
Dafuq is Dis
;-;
Not banking on 70%
Psychic Jirachi SMFH
Aegislash's beats djinn?!

Arcticblast Mizuhime Stratos Bughouse BLOOD TOTEM finally Laga Memoric shaian KyleCole Braverius (?), have you guys considered a ban on Hyperspace Fury/Hole? Those moves are ridiculous on its own. A skillful player uses timely Protect to put him/herself in a better position on the field. Substitute, which adds an added layer of protection on top of Protect, is also a game-changing move in Doubles. It is no surprise that some of the best meta threats commonly use Substitute (Arctic's Kyurem-B, Heatran, Aegislash). Hyperspace Fury and Hyperspace Hole pretty much throw these keystone strategies out the window.

Hyperspace moves goes against the spirit of the Doubles game by principle. They are not like Feint or Phantom Force with major risks involved for a possibly game-changing reward (well, at least the former anyway). There are virtually no drawbacks in using Hyperspace moves, esp. Fury, due to their wonderful typing and power. The only way to avoid these moves is utilizing Follow Me or taking out Hoopa out before it slips into a diff dimension.

Just like we banned Dark Void for being a broken move in principle, I believe the Hyperspace moves would also fall into this category.

I mean, if you think that Hyperspace Fury/Space aren't all that bad for our meta and actually add an interesting twist to the game, then I guess you would either vote to keep/ban Hoopa-U instead of the moves themselves. However, pretty much the only complaint I've been hearing is about the Hyperspace Fury's ridiculous mechs to pretty much bypass the fundamental elements of defensive blocks used in this game.

What do you guys think about this idea? Everybody else feel free to chip in, too.

 

[Karxrida]

The difference between Hyperspace Hole/Fury and Dark Void is that Dark Void is actually broken on Smeargle. Can you prove Hyperspace Hole is broken on Smeargle? (Fury is programmed to fail if used by anything other than Unbound, not even Transform/Imposter mons can use it.)

If you think they are that much of an issue just ban both Formes, because they're the only things that can abuse the moves.

 

[Pocket]

Why ban a Pokemon for a broken move? That's like banning Darkrai and Smeargle, b/c of Dark Void.

Ofc, all of this discussion is rather pointless if the council thinks Hoopa-U doesn't need to be banned at its current state. Hoopa-U's performances in matches I've seen have been mixed, leaning towards decent but unimpressive. However, I am quite certain we haven't tapped into Hoopa-U's full potential yet.

PS: Psystrike isn't broken in principle - otherwise Psyshock would have been banned. Mewtwo without Psystrike would still be OP regardless. Dazzling Gleam is a broken move? LOL. You may have a point with Power Herb & Geomancy, but a fairy-typing with Xerneas stats and a fairy-boosting ability that also buffs your partner's Fairy moves sound OP to me, regardless of Geomancy. Air Slash isn't broken, wtf?

All of these examples you provided show how powerful these Ubers are without their signature moves. These ubers are broken in its entirety; they are not merely a vessel for a ridiculous move, where taking away one move turns them into a Tier 2 ranked mon or below.

 

[Karxrida]

Okay then, let's unban Mewtwo if we take away Psystrike.

Or Geomancy and Dazzling Gleam from Xerneas. That'll make it balanced.

Ban Air Slash on Skymin so it can't flinch people.

You get the drift. It's just dumb because you could make anything balanced if you take away the right moves and doing so opens the door to making the banlist convoluted and arbitrary.

Also, I'd like to reiterate the Fury is literally only for Unbound forme.

 

[xzern]

Guys, thoughts on Hoopa-U? I have some more replays of this djinn.
We are both innovatin
Dafuq is Dis
;-;
Not banking on 70%
Psychic Jirachi SMFH
Aegislash's beats djinn?!

Arcticblast Mizuhime Stratos Bughouse BLOOD TOTEM finally Laga Memoric shaian KyleCole Braverius (?), have you guys considered a ban on Hyperspace Fury/Hole? Those moves are ridiculous on its own. A skillful player uses timely Protect to put him/herself in a better position on the field. Substitute, which adds an added layer of protection on top of Protect, is also a game-changing move in Doubles. It is no surprise that some of the best meta threats commonly use Substitute (Arctic's Kyurem-B, Heatran, Aegislash). Hyperspace Fury and Hyperspace Hole pretty much throw these keystone strategies out the window.

Hyperspace moves goes against the spirit of the Doubles game by principle. They are not like Feint or Phantom Force with major risks involved for a possibly game-changing reward (well, at least the former anyway). There are virtually no drawbacks in using Hyperspace moves, esp. Fury, due to their wonderful typing and power. The only way to avoid these moves is utilizing Follow Me or taking out Hoopa out before it slips into a diff dimension.

Just like we banned Dark Void for being a broken move in principle, I believe the Hyperspace moves would also fall into this category.

I mean, if you think that Hyperspace Fury/Space aren't all that bad for our meta and actually add an interesting twist to the game, then I guess you would either vote to keep/ban Hoopa-U instead of the moves themselves. However, pretty much the only complaint I've been hearing is about the Hyperspace Fury's ridiculous mechs to pretty much bypass the fundamental elements of defensive blocks used in this game.

What do you guys think about this idea? Everybody else feel free to chip in, too.

I strongly agree with your post, Pocket. In fact, I came to this thread just now to raise the very same point. Pretty much everyone's relevant argument for banning Hoopa-U is the hyperspace moves, so why not just ban the hyperspace moves? We, as a community, should strive to have a diverse and interesting metagame. That being said, we should try to keep ourselves from banning too many threats in order to preserve and expand upon the diversity that we should strive towards. Hoopa-U is most certainly not broken when the hyperspace moves are not taken into account. It's also a cool pokemon that could viably fit on semi-tr and tailwind teams and help tailwind teams in particlar against Cresselia. It is very frail on the physical side and needs speed control in order to maximize its potential. Other relevant metagame threats like Mega Diancie do not have these problems.

Okay then, let's unban Mewtwo if we take away Psystrike.

Or Geomancy and Dazzling Gleam from Xerneas. That'll make it balanced.

Ban Air Slash on Skymin so it can't flinch people.

You get the drift. It's just dumb because you could make anything balanced if you take away the right moves and doing so opens the door to making the banlist convoluted and arbitrary.

Also, I'd like to reiterate the Fury is literally only for Unbound forme.

To answer your question (was there a question?), we don't ban random moves on random ubers for the sake of it. Here's an example: let's say you ban psystrike on Mewtwo. Psystrike is not the reason why Mewtwo is broken. Mewtwo and both of its mega variants are all extremely powerful for the metagame and do not need much support to do what it needs to do. So, if you banned Psystrike and then unbanned Mewtwo, you would still be stuck with an extremely powerful threat with 2 other relevant STABs, Psyshock and Psychic. Are you just going to ban every STAB that Mewtwo gets, and make it a completely useless Pokemon? The bottom line here is that there's no reason to arbitrarily ban moves and unban the respective pokemon. That just wastes everyone's time and makes the game confusing for newer players. It might sound like I'm contradicting myself, but the difference between this and Hoopa is that Hoopa can be viably run on a variety of speed control teams without the hyperspace moves, still be a threat, and can still be checked.

 

[Bughouse]

I personally have no issue with banning a move rather than a Pokemon in this case (if anything needs banning at all). Hyperspace Fury is a move with distribution on exactly 1 mon while Hyperspace Hole expands the pool to 2 including Smeargle. This low distribution suggests that if Hoopa-Unbound is broken, which would be entirely based on one or both of these moves, the problem could be solved equally as well by banning the move, which is actually a less restrictive ban overall and fits with what was done with Dark Void in the past.

In other news, here's the team from Pocket's replays above (conveniently he shared 3 losses even though it has won a lot more than lost lmao). It's fun to use, albeit not all that consistent, but it can also be massively improved. I just wanted to try Hoopa-U on Trick Room and with Quash Sableye support too. I'm sure it can be done much better.

you know this team is mine bc it has 2 safety goggles users

Hoopa-Unbound @ Life Orb
Ability: Magician
EVs: 112 HP / 144 Atk / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Hyperspace Hole
- Hyperspace Fury
- Drain Punch
- Protect

Sableye (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 72 Def / 184 SpD
Impish Nature
- Quash
- Will-O-Wisp
- Taunt
- Protect

Diancie @ Diancite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 156 HP / 252 Atk / 100 SpA
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Diamond Storm
- Moonblast
- Protect

Victini @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 36 HP / 252 Atk / 220 Spe
Adamant Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- V-create
- Bolt Strike
- Protect

Azumarill @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 180 HP / 252 Atk / 76 Def
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Belly Drum
- Aqua Jet
- Play Rough
- Protect

Jirachi @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 200 SpA / 56 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 30 SpA / 30 SpD / 1 Spe
- Follow Me
- Flash Cannon
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Ground]

 

[BLOOD TOTEM]

anyone wanna point out where stratos' counterplay was in this replay http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/doublesou-251684322

remind me why shaymin-s is legal lol

 

[shrop]

I'm gonna throw this out there cause I think people need to hear it.

If shaymin-sky gets banned
>Talon gets a lot worse meaning it gets used less
>Thundy gets a lot worse meaning it gets used less

If this happens, bunny rampage gets 1000000000 times better because skymin, talon, and thundy are the three biggest cockblocks to it. Pick your poison I guess...

 

[Stratos]

also all of kyle's teams get destroyed because he has at least two of those on each

 

[Pocket]

That's what I've been saying about Skymin's Air Slash creating favorable 1 vs 1 match up for its partner. The only way to beat the Skymin pair in this situation is to bring two Pokemon that can beat Infernape, which would be Keldeo (or Metagross, if it can tank a -2 LO Overheat), since Stratos has no fast mons and his redirector is already shot down (Seed Flare puttin in work). IMO Skymin is a much greater threat to slow defensive builds than Sub Kyurem-B.

Bughouse, the only replay I can find for your teams were all losses, sorry Dx

 

[Arcticblast]

Hoopa-C still messes up bunnies pretty bad so we could theoretically ban both Skymin and Hoopa-U and I'd be okay with that

Speaking of Hoopa-Whatever, I am 100% against banning any of the Hyperspace moves. Banning both is an unnecessary nerf to Hoopa-C, who is probably balanced (and if not we can address that later). Simply banning Hyperspace Fury, while somewhat of an attractive option, is also not ideal. It doesn't take away Hoopa-U's incredible mixed offenses with access to 80+ BP STAB on both sides. It doesn't change the fact that it's only really checked defensively by four or five Pokemon (common Darks and Suicune). It doesn't take away its above average special bulk.

Basically, while Hyperspace Fury is probably the most broken aspect of Hoopa-U, I don't think removing that alone (or even both Hyperspace moves) will actually balance it. It simply has too much going on. And it's not like Rampardos where there's one good aspect and a lot of bad ones - the only truly bad aspect of Hoopa-U is its abysmal Defense. Even base 80 Speed is workable, especially with Tailwind or Icy Wind support.

I wanted to say this somewhere but couldn't find a place to put it in: I highly doubt a weaker Dark-type like Scrafty would be broken with Hyperspacd Fury.

 

[KyleCole]

also all of kyle's teams get destroyed because he has at least two of those on each

Gotta build for the meta I'm in not the meta I want

 

[Pocket]

Arcticblast, Hoopa-U without its Hyperspace moves is more than balanced... Even at its current state Hoopa-U hasn't been all that impressive from what I've seen. If you have replays that prove otherwise, I'd love to see them.

I'd rather nerf Hoopa-C than to keep a ridiculous move around. However, you don't think Hyperspace Fury/Hole are broken on their own, which is fine. I'm not even 100% convinced myself that it's an OP move like Dark Void, but I still wanted to bring people's attention to an alternative solution. A Scrafty with Hyperspace Fury will turn it into an even better Aegislash / Gengar check than Hoopa, though. Players cannot also mindlessly double Protect on Scrafty's Fake Out, either, since Scrafty may opt for Fury instead.

I doubt Scrafty would be broken with Hyperspace Fury, just like I really haven't seen Hoopa-U proven to be broken (it's still way too squishy, even with its high special bulk, and requires significant support). However, a non-broken Hyperspace Fury Scrafty wouldn't stop people from complaining about how dumb the move is.

 

[shaian]

c/p'ing most of this from a convo with Pocket

The one thing I find is the most /negative/ aspect of Hoopa-U is that it can put a lot of strain on Pokemon that rely on (or prefer to) Protect before Mega-evolving, such as Metagross and Gardevoir, or that like to Protect in order to enable certain strategies to operate effectively, such as Charizard activating Drought for Chlorosaur or protecting to lure in an opposing setter before Mega-evolving. Being able to nullify the strategic Protects, and OHKO or do heavy damage to these Mons which desperately rely on their Mega-forms as they Mega evolve really reduces their effectiveness.

If anything, I think Hyperspace Hole / Fury are being held back by Hoopa tbh.

 

[Checkmater]

Guys, thoughts on Hoopa-U? I have some more replays of this djinn.
We are both innovatin
Dafuq is Dis
;-;
Not banking on 70%
Psychic Jirachi SMFH
Aegislash's beats djinn?!

Arcticblast Mizuhime Stratos Bughouse BLOOD TOTEM finally Laga Memoric shaian KyleCole Braverius (?), have you guys considered a ban on Hyperspace Fury/Hole? Those moves are ridiculous on its own. A skillful player uses timely Protect to put him/herself in a better position on the field. Substitute, which adds an added layer of protection on top of Protect, is also a game-changing move in Doubles. It is no surprise that some of the best meta threats commonly use Substitute (Arctic's Kyurem-B, Heatran, Aegislash). Hyperspace Fury and Hyperspace Hole pretty much throw these keystone strategies out the window.

Hyperspace moves goes against the spirit of the Doubles game by principle. They are not like Feint or Phantom Force with major risks involved for a possibly game-changing reward (well, at least the former anyway). There are virtually no drawbacks in using Hyperspace moves, esp. Fury, due to their wonderful typing and power. The only way to avoid these moves is utilizing Follow Me or taking out Hoopa out before it slips into a diff dimension.

Just like we banned Dark Void for being a broken move in principle, I believe the Hyperspace moves would also fall into this category.

I mean, if you think that Hyperspace Fury/Space aren't all that bad for our meta and actually add an interesting twist to the game, then I guess you would either vote to keep/ban Hoopa-U instead of the moves themselves. However, pretty much the only complaint I've been hearing is about the Hyperspace Fury's ridiculous mechs to pretty much bypass the fundamental elements of defensive blocks used in this game.

What do you guys think about this idea? Everybody else feel free to chip in, too.

I'm going to address two points of your post here

"A skillful player uses timely Protect to put him/herself in a better position on the field."
"Hyperspace moves goes against the spirit of the Doubles game by principle. They are not like Feint or Phantom Force with major risks involved for a possibly game-changing reward (well, at least the former anyway)."

Alright, so we've started to talk about Hoopa-U from a design standpoint. This is a very different viewpoint than a balance standpoint. However, breaking protect does not make hoopa-u a anti-fun or anti-skill metapick. On contrast, by design, Hoopa-U's speed tier and ability to break through protect make it a mon that rewards players for field control. As Stratos and others have pointed out, Hoopa-U is incredibly strong when you have field control, either trick room or tailwind, and its ability to break through protect discourages tect stalling.

Hyperspace moves are different because of the speed tier they lie on. A comparison to feint/phantom force is not valid.

And, in terms of team-building, HoopaU provides interesting challenges and difficulties but is not overly constraining.

Anyways, it's a little early to be saying anything definite about Hoopa-U's brokeness/unbrokeness, however it's important to remember that hoopa-u is incredibly speed reliant.

 

[Darkmalice]

anyone wanna point out where stratos' counterplay was in this replay http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/doublesou-251684322

remind me why shaymin-s is legal lol

Stratos should have used Hydro Pump / Scald on Infernape instead of taking down Shaymin-S with Ice Beam. Given that Shaymin-S had no LO recoil, it could have been assumed that it was holding Sash, where as Infernape already revealed LO recoil. Of course this doesn't give him the win, but it would have avoided the doomed situation that followed that turn.



So far Hoopa-U is ok but not outstanding to me. I echo what everyone else says in that it's speed reliant. Its lack of resistances and terrible Defence really attenuate this, as they place more emphasis on avoiding hits and make it harder for it to switch in (though its good special bulk helps here). This is defence bad enough that it can be OHKOed by LO Bisharp Sucker Punch, guaranteed if using a negative nature. Other strong and popular attackers like Kang are not completely reliant on speed control. It has been deadweight in some matches, and it needs support or it becomes the worse member of the team.

It's degree of unpredictability helps it out. For example, it can Sub against Bisharp. Or Ally Switch to get out of there. Or use coverage moves like Drain Punch and HP Ice for its checks in the right scenario. I've used a Scarf set with enough Speed to outrun Adamant Lando-T, meaning it can OHKO it with HP Ice before Lando-T whist baiting it to U-turn (be warned, Jolly Lando-T will shit on Hoopa-U). It solves the speed issue, making it less team-reliant, and also works well as a revenge killer lategame, picking off weakened threats who can't protect agaisnt Hoopa and, lategame, switch-ins to Hyperspace Fury are far more limited. The problem with the Scarf set is that it really appreciates LO for the attack boost as something so physically frail wants to kill stuff quickly. It also sucks not OHKOing Amoonguss with Hyperspace Hole.

 

[Derivatives]

While other Pokemon really only get 1-2 turns of guaranteed control over the game while under Trick Room/Tailwind, Hoopa-U can take advantage of every turn except the turn it is set. Also works better than Bisharp at dismantling opposing Trick Room teams because of this:

tfw no cresselia :(

252+ Atk Life Orb Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 346-408 (77.9 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(346, 351, 354, 359, 361, 367, 369, 374, 377, 382, 385, 390, 393, 398, 400, 408)/444
this ranges from fucking 350 to 400

lol bisharp

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 281-330 (63.2 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(281, 283, 283, 289, 291, 296, 299, 304, 307, 307, 312, 315, 320, 322, 328, 330)/444
all of these are around 300

as well as it breaking Protect for anything that tries to Protect while tr is getting set up. It basically destroys Trick Room teams unless it gets taken care of, or it destroys opposing non Trick Room teams.
So Team Option 1:
Hoopa-U trick room to beat all teams that don't have Hoopa-U on them.
Team Option 2:
Beat Hoopa-U trick room with Hoopa-U (or Skymin+Kangaskhan @_@).

It may not be as overcentralizing as I predict it to be, as there will be a bit of room for creativity, but not nearly as much as there was in the pre-hoopa era.

 

[Stratos]

Stratos should have used Hydro Pump / Scald on Infernape instead of taking down Shaymin-S with Ice Beam. Given that Shaymin-S had no LO recoil, it could have been assumed that it was holding Sash, where as Infernape already revealed LO recoil. Of course this doesn't give him the win, but it would have avoided the doomed situation that followed that turn.

i needed to break its sash at some point lol its not like i had tyranitar

my idea was that if i could get it down to sash and get tailwind up i could get something going with subtran but it was not to be

 

[deoxys speed]

Is hoopa going to be allowed in Grand Slam? bc I've been making teams like crazy the last 6-7 days without it in mind. So if it's allowed that's a little upsetting ;_;