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Unrelated to the above but I am going to acknowledge that the 2 pokemon I'm about to talk about are different, yet deserve a comparison for some simple reasons. The mons I'm talking about are Mega Metagross and Mega Scizor. The similarities are obvious: bulky steel type megas with offensive presence.
I think in this current metagame that Metagross is not better than Scizor and shouldn't be a sub-rank above it. Here's a basic pros and cons list:
Metagross:
- Much higher speed tier
- Much better coverage with its moves
- Stronger off the bat thanks to Tough Claws
- Better STAB combo, higher base power moves
Scizor:
- Access to Roost and Swords Dance, 2 moves that make it a great bulky setup sweeper
- Does not rely on its speed tier so it can invest in its bulk, making it much harder to revenge kill
- Checks more things thanks to its bulk investment and ability to recover
- Far better defensive typing
In an offensively oriented metagame like this one (yeah I said it, balance is good but offense is still the gold standard), Scizor poses more of a threat most of the time in my opinion. While Metagross is very bulky and difficult to OHKO, once it has been worn down a little bit (RH Chomp anyone?) it is quite simple to revenge kill since many things above the 110 speed tier have become quite popular. On the other hand, while Scizor is hard stopped by certain things and lacks coverage to break past its counters, it has the ability to check/counter things much more reliably than Metagross. Also if it is able to set up a Swords Dance or two, Bullet Punch is able to clean up weakened resists pretty easily. This combination of bulk and revenge killing ability makes it more valuable as a glue for teams and also more potent late game since fast mons are abundant but priority is hard to avoid. On top of that, many of the pokemon that Metagross is an offensive check to (fairies like Mega Gardevoir, DD Mega Altaria, etc) are actually checked better (countered, in most cases) by Scizor simply because it can repeatedly switch in and Roost off the damage.
I'm not specifically arguing for Metagross to drop or for Scizor to rise (haven't really considered this one too heavily), but I don't think they should be separated by a sub-rank when I feel that Scizor is more effective right now.
You can't really compare these two to be honest. It's like comparing Weavile and Bisharp, but it is clear they fulfill different roles. Scizor acts as a bulky win condition and Metagross is a brilliant attacker that shits on certain teams with the right coverage. But I will go along with the comparison and show why I think Metagross is still far better.
You are really underselling Metagross' speed tier. It outspeeds entire teams barring maybe one Mon (although it beats some of them, like bunny, zam, aero, only really losing to manectric, something not too important in a meta where hippo is Jesus.) Checking the latis is huge. In fact, humor me and check out my last post where I compare metagross to Lando I. You can see they are way more similar than these two are. Then come back here.
Ok welcome back. Metagross belongs in S for sure, being slightly worse than something deemed broken sound like S to me.
So going back to Weavile vs Bisharp: Weavile is weaker, faster and has worse typing. Bisharp has one more property, so it is one subrank higher. Metagross is faster, stronger, has worse typing, but insane coverage. It has one more property in its favor, so it should be one subrank higher. It seems way better than Scizor to me. It is bulkier, faster, stronger, and far more versatile. It has coverage to beat fairies, hippo, skarm, pretty much anything except scizor. So does scizor belong in S? I don't think so, but please don't drop Metagross, especially for this reasoning. The reasoning I'm not quite on board with M-Sciz is I never use it. I prefer Scarf Regular Scizor tbh, but im weird. I'm only like 1700 on ladder, so you probably know better.
Isn't there like one ou ghost, and it also has an even stronger poison stab? Being able to take ghost moves isn't really relevant for that reason. Dark is notable, so bisharp and ttar? As I said, shaymin doesn't beat bisharp iirc and celebi can pass out of ttar usually anyway (bar scarf varients, but you can just switch out of those). Maybe hoopa, but what is shaymin going to do anyway? Lol
Everything you listed wrong with celebi (bad dark weak, which as mentioned doesn't really matter) is also Wong with shaymin (usually even more so), so I don't see why it should move up.
Well not only am i amazed that you can really just belittle the importance of not being weak to ghost/dark given that those two are THE best attacking types in the game rn, you're also forgetting ghost and dark being used as coverage moves. Knock off on azu, shadow ball on alakazam, stuff like that which celebi is 2hko'd by won't be hurting shaymin.
Shaymin isn't getting past torn-t either, so I don't get your point.
Never said it did. What i was trying to say is that torn-t is an example of why celebi's "versatility" doesn't mean shit: torn-t beats celebi no matter what it runs.
Celebi can at least pass out to gain momentum (bonus points for being behind a sub) whereas shaymin offers a 100% free switch. Access to twave, leaf storm, epower, bpass, perish, cm, swords dance, nasty plot, psychic, heal bell, recover, sucker punch(?) means that it is definitely versatile, and an all out attacking set even has the benefit of surprise (which shaymin definitely lacks).
Celebi's not versatile it just has a big utility movepool
And surprise is nice until you realize offensive celebi's "surprise" for latios is a life orb modest hp ice that still only does 48.8 - 57.5%
Since celebi's stabs and special attack are crap it's really prediction reliant on the player guessing which of the 17 resists on the opposing team is going to switch in. I've tried it before and I hardly even get a chance to use stab. When i do, it's leaf storm, and it just did 40% to the 15 million grass resists in the game, so now its forced out.
"m-m-m-muh stab psychic!"
No. Psychic is a subpar offensive type, and so is grass.
Lol yes gyarados has access to fire blast, blizzard, thunder, dark pulse, iron head, roar, taunt, thunder wave, toxic, substitute, scald, and facade
Bisharp has access to focus blast, foul play, grass knot, poison jab, psycho cut, aerial ace, rock polish, shadow claw, taunt, thunder wave, toxic, and x-scissor.
garchomp has access to aqua tail, crunch, surf, aerial ace, iron head, poison jab, rock slide, toxic, shadow claw, and earth power.
Such big movepools! So many powerful attacks! What utility! And yet, why the fuck don't you see ANY of these moves being used on ANY of these pokemon? It's because they don't help them get past their checks
It's the same with celebi. No real set will be running much other than Stab/recover/baton pass/ sd or np or sub because that's what celebi is good at.
It's "versatility" never really sees the light of day because none of those moves help it get past its checks.
Do you want to see a mon that's actually versatile? Kyu-b. It can use iron head for fairies, hp fire for ferro/zor, earth power for heatran, and straight up cb outrage to destroy mew and chansey. It has moves to get past its checks
Having big shiny movepools doesn't make a difference if it doesn't change how the opponent handles you.
Both of them are usurped by serperior as an offensive grass BTW, so I don't see the point in using either offensively tbh
not really. Rest+3 attacks with life orb shaymin has the consistent power that celebi lacks and the coverage and bulk that serperior lacks, it's an effective in-between. Yes, shaymin is still not exactly punching holes but it is tougher to take out than celebi with it's 7 weaknesses, 4 of which (dark, fire, flying, ice) are very common.
Also, how is celebi having more moves a detriment? Lol Shaymin wants to run the same exact things, and it has less to work with. The only thing celebi lacks is seed flare, and grass is a sucky offensive type anyway (so leaf storm can suffice), and stab psychic is cute.
What you're tellin me is that the difference between leaf storm and seed flare is irrelevant, and that's really far from the truth. 40% sdef drops can blast through slower flying types like mandi and zapdos, something that celebi can never really hope to do.
Shaymin has a better typing than shaymin (fighting and psychic resists are bae), letting it actually beat things. Shaymin is hardcore lacking in resists, and its uninvested bulk is dumb (its invested bulk makes it weak, not to mention entirely outclassed). I've tried to make shaymin work for a while, but calc after calc just showed that celebi was better since shaymin can't really beat what celebi loses to anyway.
I mean, celebi and shaymin's bulk is the same and the psychic typing gives celebi weaknesses to the best offensive types in the game, so I dunno how you can really argue about bulk.
Celebi doesn't run an all out attacking set simply because serperior exists, and a base 100 offensive grass isn't awesome in this meta to begin with. That doesn't mean that if can't run it better than shaymin, it just means that shaymin role is even more useless in this meta.
Well yes, serp is a far better offensive grass, but it can't exactly switch-in to shit. And look at the ranking system too. Is a grass type that's more offensively consistent than celebi and more resilient than serperior belong alongside chandelure, honchkrow, and jellicent? God no lol.
You can't really compare these two to be honest. It's like comparing Weavile and Bisharp, but it is clear they fulfill different roles. Scizor acts as a bulky win condition and Metagross is a brilliant attacker that shits on certain teams with the right coverage. But I will go along with the comparison and show why I think Metagross is still far better.
You are really underselling Metagross' speed tier. It outspeeds entire teams barring maybe one Mon (although it beats some of them, like bunny, zam, aero, only really losing to manectric, something not too important in a meta where hippo is Jesus.) Checking the latis is huge. In fact, humor me and check out my last post where I compare metagross to Lando I. You can see they are way more similar than these two are. Then come back here.
Ok welcome back. Metagross belongs in S for sure, being slightly worse than something deemed broken sound like S to me.
So going back to Weavile vs Bisharp: Weavile is weaker, faster and has worse typing. Bisharp has one more property, so it is one subrank higher. Metagross is faster, stronger, has worse typing, but insane coverage. It has one more property in its favor, so it should be one subrank higher. It seems way better than Scizor to me. It is bulkier, faster, stronger, and far more versatile. It has coverage to beat fairies, hippo, skarm, pretty much anything except scizor. So does scizor belong in S? I don't think so, but please don't drop Metagross, especially for this reasoning. The reasoning I'm not quite on board with M-Sciz is I never use it. I prefer Scarf Regular Scizor tbh, but im weird. I'm only like 1700 on ladder, so you probably know better.
Its just that if people are saying gross should drop because of the rise of bulky chomp and also the hippo + skarm balance cores, then scizor also drops by this logic as it also loses to these same mons. Scizor and gross check many of the same things for their team but when it comes to dealing with their own checks gross isn't as helpless as Scizor thanks to immediate power speed and more coverage options. They aren't entirely comparable though as scizor trades immediate power and the speed of gross for longetivity and thus has more utility with its bulk. But still, Scizor usually can only run superpower for Heatran and is still left helpless against many of its other checks such as talon flame, bulky chomp, zard y, is setup fodder for zard x which recently moved up to S, zapdos, thundurus, keldeo, skarmory and a few others. Gross at least can lure in its checks to a much greater extent and is less likely to give free turns and momentum to the opposition. Scizor can only make up for this with u turn and otherwise its just only sweeping late game after pivoting into and healing on things it checks, whereas gross has other options to add to its strong early and mid game presence such as late game cleaning vs offense with rock polish. Tbh i agree that gross and mega scizor shouldn't be in the same rank , i think gross is a step above it.
Well not only am i amazed that you can really just belittle the importance of not being weak to ghost/dark given that those two are THE best attacking types in the game rn, you're also forgetting ghost and dark being used as coverage moves. Knock off on azu, shadow ball on alakazam, stuff like that which celebi is 2hko'd by won't be hurting shaymin.
I belittle the resistance to stab ghost moves because they are irrelevant. both celebi and shaymin are more threatened by sludge wave, which is carried by the only ghost in OU (gengar). I conceded that dark is a nice type to not be weak to, but then qualified it by noting that shaymin does not beat bisharp (on the switchin) or weavile anyway. I would argue that celebi fairs just as well against bisharp in a 1v1 situation. Bisharp isnt going to sucker punch if the celebi set isnt revealed already, giving celebi a free 1hko with earth power. This is mostly irrelevant anyway since shaymin obviously has the upper hand at taking dark attacks, so I digress.
As for coverage: Funnily enough, shaymin is 2hkod by play rough and psychic regardless (ie. it will be hurting shaymin), so I don't see your point. Celebi takes a bit more in these scenarios, sure (though play rough outdamages knock off after the item loss anyway Luckily celebi has reliable recovery), but neither of the two can switch in. Perhaps it is noteworthy that alakazam has to use its coverage move to hit celebi on the switch/in general, whereas it can hit shaymin with STAB. This punishes mis-predicts harder, but again, this isn't my point, so I digress.
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 178-211 (52.1 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 202-238 (59.2 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 196-231 (57.4 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Never said it did. What i was trying to say is that torn-t is an example of why celebi's "versatility" doesn't mean shit: torn-t beats celebi no matter what it runs.
Celebi's not versatile it just has a big utility movepool
And surprise is nice until you realize offensive celebi's "surprise" for latios is a life orb modest hp ice that still only does 48.8 - 57.5%
Also, Shaymins hp ice also only does 50%. You are still just listing things that are wrong with celebi that are also wrong with shaymin ('cept celebi has legitimate options to circumvent this)
If you are really feelin it:
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Celebi Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 455-538 (152.1 - 179.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Since celebi's stabs and special attack are crap it's really prediction reliant on the player guessing which of the 17 resists on the opposing team is going to switch in. I've tried it before and I hardly even get a chance to use stab. When i do, it's leaf storm, and it just did 40% to the 15 million grass resists in the game, so now its forced out.
"m-m-m-muh stab psychic!"
No. Psychic is a subpar offensive type, and so is grass.
It has the same "crap" special attack as shaymin. It has higher bp moves than shaymin (bar seed flare vs giga drain, but leaf storm exists which is not nearly as bad as you say, as does nasty plot).
It has the same stab as shaymin + bonus psychic (which shaymin is running anyway because of things like megavenu). STAB psychic is doing more than a super effective hidden power anyway.
252 SpA Life Orb Celebi Psychic vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 153-181 (49.8 - 58.9%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Hidden Power Ice vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 138-164 (44.9 - 53.4%) -- 31.6% chance to 2HKO
Since you brought it up, it is obvious that an offensive grass type without crazy boosting potential has no place in OU to begin with since there are 15 million grass resists. Since shaymin holds only this single role, there is no reason for it to move up (especially when celebi does it better). Was this your point?
You are seriously trashing on celebi without ever differentiating it from shaymin (hence trashing on shaymin) lol
Lol yes gyarados has access to fire blast, blizzard, thunder, dark pulse, iron head, roar, taunt, thunder wave, toxic, substitute, scald, and facade
Bisharp has access to focus blast, foul play, grass knot, poison jab, psycho cut, aerial ace, rock polish, shadow claw, taunt, thunder wave, toxic, and x-scissor.
garchomp has access to aqua tail, crunch, surf, aerial ace, iron head, poison jab, rock slide, toxic, shadow claw, and earth power.
Such big movepools! So many powerful attacks! What utility! And yet, why the fuck don't you see ANY of these moves being used on ANY of these pokemon? It's because they don't help them get past their checks
It's the same with celebi. No real set will be running much other than Stab/recover/baton pass/ sd or np or sub because that's what celebi is good at.
It's "versatility" never really sees the light of day because none of those moves help it get past its checks.
Do you want to see a mon that's actually versatile? Kyu-b. It can use iron head for fairies, hp fire for ferro/zor, earth power for heatran, and straight up cb outrage to destroy mew and chansey. It has moves to get past its checks
Having big shiny movepools doesn't make a difference if it doesn't change how the opponent handles you.
Thank you for the bold, though. I don't know how I would have comprehended your post without it.
Again, celebi isn't "good" at being an offensive grass type (arguably) because offensive grass types (ie. shaymin) aren't good. However, it is better than shaymin at it.
Shaymin @ Life Orb
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Seed Flare
- Earth Power / HP Fire / HP Ice / Dazzling Gleam
- Psychic / Air Slash
- Synthesis
Celebi @ Life Orb
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Leaf Storm / Giga Drain / Energy Ball
- Earth Power / HP Fire / HP Ice/ Dazzling Gleam / Thunder Wave
- Psychic / Thunder Wave / Nasty Plot / Calm Mind / Baton Pass
- Recover / Thunder Wave / Nasty Plot / Calm Mind / Baton Pass
What is the difference aside from celebi having more options (seed flare isnt sufficient see: below)? Being unpredictable definitely helps celebi in that people will have no problem switching in mons that can easily take on the typical non-offensive celebi.
You talk a lot about celebi (and subsequently shaymin) not being able to get around their counters, but that just isn't true because of celebi's lovely access to thunderwave and baton pass (to keep momentum instead of attempting a double switch).
not really. Rest+3 attacks with life orb shaymin has the consistent power that celebi lacks and the coverage and bulk that serperior lacks, it's an effective in-between. Yes, shaymin is still not exactly punching holes but it is tougher to take out than celebi with it's 7 weaknesses, 4 of which (dark, fire, flying, ice) are very common.
Is celebi not just as powerful as shaymin? Am I missing something here? Are you talking about seed flare? Because leaf storm is stronger.
Leaf storm being a detriment is complete bs btw. Sure, it forces you out. How long did you think that shaymin was going to be on the field anyway? You seed flare, maybe get the spdef drop, then attack and either KO the opponent or they switch to something that can take an unboosted grass move (there are 15 million grass resists, remember?) or an unboosted low-bp coverage move.
Celebi can boost on the switch before firing off a legitimately boosted move (not the pseudo -2) such as a STAB 90bp psychic if the STAB 130 bp leaf storm isn't appropriate. Something comes in and forces celebi out (except this time, celebi is guaranteed big damage, because you can't switch out of a +2 like you can shaymin's -2). Regardless of how you spin it, the two are on the field for the same amount of time, leaf storm or not (plus 15mil grass resists means that neither will be seeing much use anyway right?)
Funnily enough, shaymin is also weak to fire, flying, and ice. It is also neutral to psychic and fighting. You win some, you lose some. This hardly has any impact on its ability to function as a defensively-uninvested offensive grass type.
What you're tellin me is that the difference between leaf storm and seed flare is irrelevant, and that's really far from the truth. 40% sdef drops can blast through slower flying types like mandi and zapdos, something that celebi can never really hope to do.
Also, the opponent can just switch out to one of the 14.9mil other grass resists.
Also the 40% spdef drop is 40%. Don't act like shaymin is wallbreaking every time it comes in. 60% of the time, it is getting forced out because of its mediocre damage output.
I mean, celebi and shaymin's bulk is the same and the psychic typing gives celebi weaknesses to the best offensive types in the game, so I dunno how you can really argue about bulk.
Once again, ghost is irrelevant because gengar is poison type. Dark is a fair point for bisharp, but celebi usually can win anyway, and weavile kills both. There is no need to argue about bulk to begin with, because, uninvested, you are working solely off of resistances (shaymin is getting 2hkod by all of these anyway due to its lack of resistances as shown above) and celebi has plenty of resistances to go around.
Well yes, serp is a far better offensive grass, but it can't exactly switch-in to shit. And look at the ranking system too. Is a grass type that's more offensively consistent than celebi and more resilient than serperior belong alongside chandelure, honchkrow, and jellicent? God no lol.
Even if it were more offensively consistent than celebi (which it isn't), and slowish offensive grass types were good in this meta (which they aren't), those mons seem like perfect peers anyway, now that you mention it.
I don't think it is unfair to assume that you haven't actually used shaymin in ou (and you said you tried celebi once, unless I misread), so I don't understand your conviction. Has anybody here actually used shaymin successfully, or are we just arguing for the sake of it? Or rather, has anybody here used shaymin as more than a fun novelty over celebi?
Sure, C- doesn't mean it is good, but there is absolutely no reason for shaymin to move up to begin with. It seems like the meta has actually gotten less kind to grass types than before.
Edit: I think that this is just another keldeo vs poliwrath argument. Poliwrath is a one-dimensional defensive water Mon that has water absorb and circle throw over keldeo. Keldeo is a traditional offensive Mon. When picking a defensive water-fighting, then, the obvious choice is poliwrath.
However, if turns out that keldeo is actually bulkier than poliwrath, and it can run the same set e cept more effectively because faster. It trades the water immunity (which is unnecessary) and circle throw damage (which can't break subs) for lots of speed and a little bulk and a lot of unpredictability. Since keldeo is never used in such a way, though, it makes it seem like poliwrath has a nche (it doesn't).
Similarly, celebi is seldom used as an offensive grass type because it is a completely niche role (also serperior exists). Shaymin seems like a more intuitive fit since it is one-dimensionally constrained to that mediocre role, but celebi is ultimately better when placed side-by-side.
Poliwrath, shaymin, whatever: they are both outclassed, and they both have nothing but a useless niche going for them to begin with. (Yes, shaymin is a bit better than poliwrath, but that is why it is D instead of unranked)
I belittle the resistance to stab ghost moves because they are irrelevant. both celebi and shaymin are more threatened by sludge wave, which is carried by the only ghost in OU (gengar). I conceded that dark is a nice type to not be weak to, but then qualified it by noting that shaymin does not beat bisharp (on the switchin) or weavile anyway. I would argue that celebi fairs just as well against bisharp in a 1v1 situation. Bisharp isnt going to sucker punch if the celebi set isnt revealed already, giving celebi a free 1hko with earth power. This is mostly irrelevant anyway since shaymin obviously has the upper hand at taking dark attacks, so I digress.
As for coverage: Funnily enough, shaymin is 2hkod by play rough and psychic regardless (ie. it will be hurting shaymin), so I don't see your point. Celebi takes a bit more in these scenarios, sure (though play rough outdamages knock off after the item loss anyway Luckily celebi has reliable recovery), but neither of the two can switch in. Perhaps it is noteworthy that alakazam has to use its coverage move to hit celebi on the switch/in general, whereas it can hit shaymin with STAB. This punishes mis-predicts harder, but again, this isn't my point, so I digress.
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 178-211 (52.1 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 202-238 (59.2 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 196-231 (57.4 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Also, Shaymins hp ice also only does 50%. You are still just listing things that are wrong with celebi that are also wrong with shaymin ('cept celebi has legitimate options to circumvent this)
If you are really feelin it:
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Celebi Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 455-538 (152.1 - 179.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
It has the same "crap" special attack as shaymin. It has higher bp moves than shaymin (bar seed flare vs giga drain, but leaf storm exists which is not nearly as bad as you say, as does nasty plot).
It has the same stab as shaymin + bonus psychic (which shaymin is running anyway because of things like megavenu). STAB psychic is doing more than a super effective hidden power anyway.
252 SpA Life Orb Celebi Psychic vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 153-181 (49.8 - 58.9%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Hidden Power Ice vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 138-164 (44.9 - 53.4%) -- 31.6% chance to 2HKO
Since you brought it up, it is obvious that an offensive grass type without crazy boosting potential has no place in OU to begin with since there are 15 million grass resists. Since shaymin holds only this single role, there is no reason for it to move up (especially when celebi does it better). Was this your point?
You are seriously trashing on celebi without ever differentiating it from shaymin (hence trashing on shaymin) lol
Thank you for the bold, though. I don't know how I would have comprehended your post without it.
Again, celebi isn't "good" at being an offensive grass type (arguably) because offensive grass types (ie. shaymin) aren't good. However, it is better than shaymin at it.
Shaymin @ Life Orb
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Seed Flare
- Earth Power / HP Fire / HP Ice / Dazzling Gleam
- Psychic / Air Slash
- Synthesis
Celebi @ Life Orb
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Leaf Storm / Giga Drain / Energy Ball
- Earth Power / HP Fire / HP Ice/ Dazzling Gleam / Thunder Wave
- Psychic / Thunder Wave / Nasty Plot / Calm Mind / Baton Pass
- Recover / Thunder Wave / Nasty Plot / Calm Mind / Baton Pass
What is the difference aside from celebi having more options (seed flare isnt sufficient see: below)? Being unpredictable definitely helps celebi in that people will have no problem switching in mons that can easily take on the typical non-offensive celebi.
You talk a lot about celebi (and subsequently shaymin) not being able to get around their counters, but that just isn't true because of celebi's lovely access to thunderwave and baton pass (to keep momentum instead of attempting a double switch).
Is celebi not just as powerful as shaymin? Am I missing something here? Are you talking about seed flare? Because leaf storm is stronger.
Leaf storm being a detriment is complete bs btw. Sure, it forces you out. How long did you think that shaymin was going to be on the field anyway? You seed flare, maybe get the spdef drop, then attack and either KO the opponent or they switch to something that can take an unboosted grass move (there are 15 million grass resists, remember?) or an unboosted low-bp coverage move.
Celebi can boost on the switch before firing off a legitimately boosted move (not the pseudo -2) such as a STAB 90bp psychic if the STAB 130 bp leaf storm isn't appropriate. Something comes in and forces celebi out (except this time, celebi is guaranteed big damage, because you can't switch out of a +2 like you can shaymin's -2). Regardless of how you spin it, the two are on the field for the same amount of time, leaf storm or not (plus 15mil grass resists means that neither will be seeing much use anyway right?)
Funnily enough, shaymin is also weak to fire, flying, and ice. It is also neutral to psychic and fighting. You win some, you lose some. This hardly has any impact on its ability to function as a defensively-uninvested offensive grass type.
Also, the opponent can just switch out to one of the 14.9mil other grass resists.
Also the 40% spdef drop is 40%. Don't act like shaymin is wallbreaking every time it comes in. 60% of the time, it is getting forced out because of its mediocre damage output.
Once again, ghost is irrelevant because gengar is poison type. Dark is a fair point for bisharp, but celebi usually can win anyway, and weavile kills both. There is no need to argue about bulk to begin with, because, uninvested, you are working solely off of resistances (shaymin is getting 2hkod by all of these anyway due to its lack of resistances as shown above) and celebi has plenty of resistances to go around.
Even if it were more offensively consistent than celebi (which it isn't), and slowish offensive grass types were good in this meta (which they aren't), those mons seem like perfect peers anyway, now that you mention it.
I don't think it is unfair to assume that you haven't actually used shaymin in ou (and you said you tried celebi once, unless I misread), so I don't understand your conviction. Has anybody here actually used shaymin successfully, or are we just arguing for the sake of it? Or rather, has anybody here used shaymin as more than a fun novelty over celebi?
Sure, C- doesn't mean it is good, but there is absolutely no reason for shaymin to move up to begin with. It seems like the meta has actually gotten less kind to grass types than before.
Edit: I think that this is just another keldeo vs poliwrath argument. Poliwrath is a one-dimensional defensive water Mon that has water absorb and circle throw over keldeo. Keldeo is a traditional offensive Mon. When picking a defensive water-fighting, then, the obvious choice is poliwrath.
However, if turns out that keldeo is actually bulkier than poliwrath, and it can run the same set e cept more effectively because faster. It trades the water immunity (which is unnecessary) and circle throw damage (which can't break subs) for lots of speed and a little bulk and a lot of unpredictability. Since keldeo is never used in such a way, though, it makes it seem like poliwrath has a nche (it doesn't).
Similarly, celebi is seldom used as an offensive grass type because it is a completely niche role (also serperior exists). Shaymin seems like a more intuitive fit since it is one-dimensionally constrained to that mediocre role, but celebi is ultimately better when placed side-by-side.
Poliwrath, shaymin, whatever: they are both outclassed, and they both have nothing but a useless niche going for them to begin with. (Yes, shaymin is a bit better than poliwrath, but that is why it is D instead of unranked)
Shaymin isn't better than Celebi. AoA Shaymin is better than AoA Celebi. For the reasons I've already mentioned, it has access to STAB Seed Flare (much stronger than Giga Drain, doesn't force you to switch out unlike Leaf Storm) and takes neutral damage from attacks like knock off, sucker punch and pursuit. I also like how you forget about Mega Sableye, a ghost-type Celebi struggles against, while Shaymin can send it to the bin. Weavile can't switch in and Bisharp is OHKOed by Earth Power.
I'd also like to note that Seed Flare has a pseudo-NP secondary effect. If you try to NP with Celebi, you're gonna have a bad time vs taunt users and special walls with phazing moves (spd skarmory). Seed Flare is different in the sense that it can't be Taunted and even if it doesn't score the SpD drop, it still does plenty of damage. Shaymin just attacks, Celebi cuts a dash with moves such as Thunder Wave and Nasty Plot.
Frankly, Shaymin is mostly outclassed, but as a bulky attacker it has a lot of perks over Serp and Celebi, so I think it should move up
AoA Celebi is shit, grass as an offensive type is shit (in most cases) and Shaymin is also shit. No reason to raise shaymin for outclassing celebi at a shitty role which it barely performs better anyway, dont bother pushing this nom DoABarrelRoll, its not happening.
The thing is that Shaymin not only struggles to stand out, but also simply can't compete with the sheer versatility that Celebi has. Shaymin's only flagship set still faces competition with Nasty Plot Celebi, as anything else Shaymin attempts to try will, for the most part, be blown out of the water by Celebi. And even if Shaymin does manage to prove its worth over Celebi, is it a notable threat to prepare for when compared to the likes of Serperior or even Mega Sceptile? Because chances are extremely likely that players who prepared for those Grass-types (and Celebi even) will not suddenly be threatened by Shaymin.
Seed Flare is practically the only notable thing Shaymin has over Celebi, and that is just from the offensive standpoint. Celebi's weaknesses to Ghost and Dark are less pronounced when you consider that the likes of Gengar, Weavile, Gunk Shot Hoopa, and Hydreigon will still more than likely tear Shaymin apart, and Celebi still has Baton Pass to combat the likes of Pursuit Tyranitar, Sucker Punch Bisharp, and Mega Sableye while maintaining its offensive presence (provided you passed the Nasty Plot boost); like you could pass the NP boost to something like Keldeo and utterly wreak untold havoc. That's another thing Celebi has over Shaymin: it doesn't need to be a one-man army, as it could easily make up for any coverage issues it has by Baton Passing to other teammates and let them take over. Shaymin is hard pressed to steamroll and break open teams by its lonesome in comparison, and when you consider that foes can switch out of the SpD drop (that only occurs less than half the time, much less the accuracy), those measly 8 PP become much more noticeable when compared to Serperior's Leaf Storms.
Honestly I feel that one of the only reasons Shaymin even remains ranked is that it can be bothersome for bulky builds that rely on Unaware Clefable (tho NP + BP Celebi with the right teammate can also fix that issue, and hell, Mega Sceptile can even make use of Unaware by 2HKOing with Leaf Storm), but Shaymin probably deserves to remain in D Rank, nothing more, nothing less.
My 2¢ on the Shaymin debate. What is realistically giving Shaymin the competition is not actually just Celebi, but also Venusaur. By virtue of thick fat, Venusaur naturally is giving competition to all other grass types in the tier. For a bulky grass type to not be outclassed, they really need their fair share of perks over Venusaur to be viable. Celebi does this with TWave, SR, Baton Pass and its myriads of boosting moves; Amoonguss and Tangrowth both has Regenerator for greater longevity and Amoonguss has Spore; Chesnaught distinguishes itself with Spikes. How does Shaymin distinguish itself from any of the mons listed above? Seed Flare? I recognise that it is a brilliant move, but that alone doesnt just cut it. It probably help in wallbreaking or forcing switches, but it simply lacks the longevity to do that, and Serperior probably does it better.
Comparing to actual mons in the D rank, there are stuff like Salamence, Mienshao, Emboar there, which are all outclassed by higher tier stuff too, and Shaymin is not any less so as those. So D is pretty much the place for it.
Nothing in the lower ranks is moving right now either. Celebi is like + two entire letter ranks higher than it lol and granted Shaymin isn't as shit as some have made it out to be on the thread but it's not like comparing an A- to a D Pokemon and thinking "oh this is a good idea to justify my logic" will matter cause there's a distinguished gap between them anyways.
Haxorus is dogshit and is fine in D, on paper it seems like a god until you realize in most games it practically needs an entire team to support it or like 4-5 Pokemon out of the picture to even be effective. Half the stuff that has been proclaimed to what it does isn't even applicable if it can't maintain itself to pull it off in the first place. Putting it above the likes of Mienshao, Metagross, Venusaur, Meloetta, and Jellicent who are some consistent D Pokemon that can pull some weight on specific teams is flawed as hell anyways.
Not too concerned with M-Gross placement at the moment, I know for awhile I've stopped using Zen Headbutt though to maximize coverage though since most times you're either spamming Meteor Mash or just a coverage move anyways and Zen is to hit specific targets like Rotom-W who aren't even difficult to build for. RP set is stupid against offense as well, which laughably is thrown to the way side as a niche set by the community most times. Then again my focus isn't really on those two, M-Scizor and M-Meta to start with. Just my two cents on that.
ehhh i wouldn't say chandy is THAT bad, but is really hard to use and should probably go to e rank or something because of these facts:
- it's a spinblocker that's supposed to beat excadrill and starmie, but needs a choice scarf+heavy prediction to do so and a nasty SR weakness does it no favors either
- specs chandy is INSANELY hard to switch into, but it also needs heavy prediction, and pursuit trappers exist so...
- ridiculously easy to revenge kill due to its poor base 80 speed and only decent defenses
- is almost completely outclassed by zard Y, which hits harder due to drought, has a more powerful weapon against bulky waters, and is able to easily defeat mons such as heatran and t-tar. however, chandy does get STAB shadow ball and thus has an easier time against mons such as lati@s (w/ scarf) plus trick
- is not as good as nidoking for example. that mon has some problems with the power of his attacks but it still is an okay wallbreaker with insane coverage.
still, chandelure is not completely unusable. 145 SpA is sweet and the ability to screw up chansey (w/ trick) is nice, which means it has a good matchup against stall.
I never said Chandelure is completely unusable. I said that its capabilities are too niche in the current metagame. Its Life Orb set is probably its best set, but unless you need Chandy's better match-up against Zard Y, Gengar does it a lot more consistently.
First of all, I'd like to make an argument for Breloom to move up, but AM said we shouldn't discuss lower rankings, so unless specified I'll discuss Mega Slowbro.
So I've used Mega Slowbro a lot. The thing about Mega Slowbro is that it's difficult to build around, but it's simply amazing when it manages to set up. It has 180 defence, the highest defence in OU bar Mega Aggron. And when this thing sets up to +6 it's almost impossible to stop, if you got SRs up to break Sturdy what does break it? Ferrothorns power whip barely does 40%. But what truly makes Mega Slowbro shine is that it can bypass all of its problems. Thunder wave Calm mind, a set that is in my opinion the strongest one in the current metagame. Handling Weavile excellently, easily escaping the 2HKO from 65BP Knock off. What it does is cripple switch in. Since this thing is almost impossible to stop when it sets up, your opponent is probe to hard switching into their Gengar/Serperior/sceptile/beedril/hydreigon/Volcarona/Venusaur/Breloom to handle it. But with T-wave you can switch out and when you get another chance you can get of two calm minds before they can attack, you're also less pressured as you can Slack off before them.
If not running T-wave there are other options. Iron defence lets you set up on Altaria, Charizard, Ferrothorn, Breloom, Beedril and Scizor, eliminating them as checks.
Resttalk lets you best two things, status and opposing Mega Slowbros. With resttalk you increase your life spam, you can put yourself to sleep and refrain from using Sleep talk to outstall the likes of slack of Mega slowbro. You also status users with ease.
Psyshock lets you beat Suicune, CM Keldeo and toxicroack. It also lets you catch almost all of your swotch ins for good damage, coming of 130 special attack psyshock hurts.
Slack of three attacks lets you break balance with ease while still checking Weavile, Landorus-Therian, Scizor, Dragonite, Tornadous-Therian(shaky), Altaria and Excadrill.
Only really consistent counter to this thing is CM unaware clefable
First of all, I'd like to make an argument for Breloom to move up, but AM said we shouldn't discuss lower rankings, so unless specified I'll discuss Mega Slowbro.
So I've used Mega Slowbro a lot. The thing about Mega Slowbro is that it's difficult to build around, but it's simply amazing when it manages to set up. It has 180 defence, the highest defence in OU bar Mega Aggron. And when this thing sets up to +6 it's almost impossible to stop, if you got SRs up to break Sturdy what does break it? Ferrothorns power whip barely does 40%. But what truly makes Mega Slowbro shine is that it can bypass all of its problems. Thunder wave Calm mind, a set that is in my opinion the strongest one in the current metagame. Handling Weavile excellently, easily escaping the 2HKO from 65BP Knock off. What it does is cripple switch in. Since this thing is almost impossible to stop when it sets up, your opponent is probe to hard switching into their Gengar/Serperior/sceptile/beedril/hydreigon/Volcarona/Venusaur/Breloom to handle it. But with T-wave you can switch out and when you get another chance you can get of two calm minds before they can attack, you're also less pressured as you can Slack off before them.
If not running T-wave there are other options. Iron defence lets you set up on Altaria, Charizard, Ferrothorn, Breloom, Beedril and Scizor, eliminating them as checks.
Resttalk lets you best two things, status and opposing Mega Slowbros. With resttalk you increase your life spam, you can put yourself to sleep and refrain from using Sleep talk to outstall the likes of slack of Mega slowbro. You also status users with ease.
Psyshock lets you beat Suicune, CM Keldeo and toxicroack. It also lets you catch almost all of your swotch ins for good damage, coming of 130 special attack psyshock hurts.
Slack of three attacks lets you break balance with ease while still checking Weavile, Landorus-Therian, Scizor, Dragonite, Tornadous-Therian(shaky), Altaria and Excadrill.
Only really consistent counter to this thing is CM unaware clefable
You seem to be forgetting that Slowbro's Special Defense is mediocre at best. You mention how it's unstoppable when it gets to +6, but you're forgetting how inconsistently it can get to +6. Unlike Crocune which can actually set up against some special attackers which have SE moves thanks to its natural bulk, most SE special attacks will 2HKO Mega Slowbro at +1 because it has no notable special bulk. Even if you fully invest in SpD, Mega Slowbro only has 19 more SpDef than Suicune's natural SpD and will then only have 37 more Defense than 252 Def Bold Suicune(Defense being MegaBro's selling point) and that will consequently cause you to be 2HKO'd by a lot more SE physical attacks. The main problem I see is consistency as a CMer though, not MegaBro's raw effectiveness as a wall. If you want to not get shut down by status, you then have to use one attack making it so you have to be at a high amount of boosts in order to beat anything that resists your single attack, making MegaBro's usefulness without any boosts much lower, and rely on Sleep Talk to use the right moves. If you want to more raw usefulness(via type coverage) without any boosts then you use CM/SlackOff/2attacks, but you lose to toxic. If you want to cripple swith-in's with T-wave or wall physical attackers even harder with Iron Defense, you go back to being a Mono-attacker. This is also not to mention that the 2 attacks set only gets to pick one coverage move of many that MegaBro could want. Compared alongside Crocune or Clefable or CM sweepers, they simply have much less holes that need to be covered by their teammates and that makes them significantly more consistent. Crocune only wishes that it could have more than one attack to threaten out more mons, and Clefable gets a coverage move since Magic Guard removes the threat of residual damage and Clefable only has to worry about physical attackers that hit SE overpowering its raw bulk or if Clefable is using T-Wave to cripple said attackers then Clefable's only issue is not having any coverage move. Keep in mind that Crocune and Clef also get Leftovers. On the other hand, Mega Slowbro always has multiple holes that it wants to fix up, but it can only pick one and fixing up one if its holes always opens up a new one that it didn't have before.
TL;DR: CM Mega Slowbro is not worth using in my opinion. It's better off being purely an impenetrable physical wall that also hits hard with SlackOff/3attacks or SlackOff/Twave/2attacks and a physically defensive spread, max special attack spread, and specially defensive spread all work depending on what your team needs.
You seem to be forgetting that Slowbro's Special Defense is mediocre at best. You mention how it's unstoppable when it gets to +6, but you're forgetting how inconsistently it can get to +6. Unlike Crocune which can actually set up against some special attackers which have SE moves thanks to its natural bulk, most SE special attacks will 2HKO Mega Slowbro at +1 because it has no notable special bulk. Even if you fully invest in SpD, Mega Slowbro only has 19 more SpDef than Suicune's natural SpD and will then only have 37 more Defense than 252 Def Bold Suicune(Defense being MegaBro's selling point) and that will consequently cause you to be 2HKO'd by a lot more SE physical attacks. The main problem I see is consistency as a CMer though, not MegaBro's raw effectiveness as a wall. If you want to not get shut down by status, you then have to use one attack making it so you have to be at a high amount of boosts in order to beat anything that resists your single attack, making MegaBro's usefulness without any boosts much lower, and rely on Sleep Talk to use the right moves. If you want to more raw usefulness(via type coverage) without any boosts then you use CM/SlackOff/2attacks, but you lose to toxic. If you want to cripple swith-in's with T-wave or wall physical attackers even harder with Iron Defense, you go back to being a Mono-attacker. This is also not to mention that the 2 attacks set only gets to pick one coverage move of many that MegaBro could want. Compared alongside Crocune or Clefable or CM sweepers, they simply have much less holes that need to be covered by their teammates and that makes them significantly more consistent. Crocune only wishes that it could have more than one attack to threaten out more mons, and Clefable gets a coverage move since Magic Guard removes the threat of residual damage and Clefable only has to worry about physical attackers that hit SE overpowering its raw bulk or if Clefable is using T-Wave to cripple said attackers then Clefable's only issue is not having any coverage move. Keep in mind that Crocune and Clef also get Leftovers. On the other hand, Mega Slowbro always has multiple holes that it wants to fix up, but it can only pick one and fixing up one if its holes always opens up a new one that it didn't have before.
TL;DR: CM Mega Slowbro is not worth using in my opinion. It's better off being purely an impenetrable physical wall that also hits hard with SlackOff/3attacks or SlackOff/Twave/2attacks and a physically defensive spread, max special attack spread, and specially defensive spread all work depending on what your team needs.
since when was 95/80 mediocre lol.... its average without a boast but its gets a boast pretty daym easily so that whole arugment is invalid... the thing thats most stopping mega slowbro is things like toxic and willo as if you want to use a rest talk cm poke then suiciune is prob the best choice since it can hold a item and only has one type....I just think there's more viable pokes who should rise to a plus IMHO
Anyway I'd like to make a nom for latias to move up to A+ and Latios down to A, Latias is a STAPLE on offensive teams right now with its acess to healing wish and defog, healing wish and the added bulk is latias main niche over latios and I honestly have no clue how latios got ahead of latias in the first place. Of course latios has more power then latias but that is because latias runs a MUCH more effective bulky defog set and healing wish is pivotal for offensive teams has it can get their crippled sweeper back to full health. Due to healing wish and latias bulk being much more useful then latios small advantage in power, I feel as this mons should swap ranks, they're power weak to pursuit trappers of course Ex:latias if trapped can stay in and get off a healing wish something latios cant
Anyway I'd like to make a nom for latias to move up to A+ and Latios down to A, Latias is a STAPLE on offensive teams right now with its acess to healing wish and defog, healing wish and the added bulk is latias main niche over latios and I honestly have no clue how latios got ahead of latias in the first place. Of course latios has more power then latias but that is because latias runs a MUCH more effective bulky defog set and healing wish is pivotal for offensive teams has it can get their crippled sweeper back to full health. Due to healing wish and latias bulk being much more useful then latios small advantage in power, I feel as this mons should swap ranks
You play off Latios's extra firepower like it's nothing, but it actually makes for a huge difference in practice. Latias's power is slightly lacking, which makes it way easier to switch into and check. Healing Wish is useful, but it tends to fit into very specific kinds of teams that get burned out or crippled very easily. It's also not a great idea to be playing that recklessly with your win condition so early in a match, as it might get crit, surprised by a coverage move, or you might find yourself in a position where you can't get Latias in to heal it up, or that Latias is too key to your defenses in order to do so. Barring that difference, there's little reason to run Latias on offense. Latios is more consistantly devastating in those kinds of situations. I'm neutral regarding Latias moving up, since it's solid on balance teams and has a niche for offense, but Latios is far too good for offense to even consider moving it down.
You play off Latios's extra firepower like it's nothing, but it actually makes for a huge difference in practice. Latias's power is slightly lacking, which makes it way easier to switch into and check. Healing Wish is useful, but it tends to fit into very specific kinds of teams that get burned out or crippled very easily. It's also not a great idea to be playing that recklessly with your win condition so early in a match, as it might get crit, surprised by a coverage move, or you might find yourself in a position where you can't get Latias in to heal it up, or that Latias is too key to your defenses in order to do so. Barring that difference, there's little reason to run Latias on offense. Latios is more consistantly devastating in those kinds of situations. I'm neutral regarding Latias moving up, since it's solid on balance teams and has a niche for offense, but Latios is far too good for offense to even consider moving it down.
Heres some calcs with latias bulky set and latios offensive set.... and maybe im missing something but the difference is not big at all considering ALL the advantages latias has over latios and the extra bulk it has........ Calcs....
184 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 156-185 (45.7 - 54.2%) -- 50.8% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 185-218 (54.2 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
184 SpA Life Orb Latias Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 153-181 (38.8 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 181-214 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- 5.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
184 SpA Life Orb Latias Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 224-265 (63.6 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 265-312 (75.2 - 88.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Of course but considering the 68 ev difference in special attack its not that substantial most things that latios 2 hit kos latias will also and vise versa, its well worth it considering the pretty big bulk difference the two mons have with that ste (why latias is the best defogger and utility mon in ou rn
if you wanted to run max special attack on latias you can also do this and still be bulkier then latias with access to healing wish of course latios runs that set better... but those difference arent as big as the massive bulk latias has over latios and its not like latias is weak anything dropping a draco with 110 base special attack and lo is going to hit hard, but taking a life orb gengar shadow ball is amazing mfing bulk (and as you can tell the bulk difference is about 20....) latios will always be the harder hitting mon but in this metagame defog and healingwish is HUGE for offense which is what many people think is the best type of team right now. Latias can just play so many roles for you and is just a pain in the ass in general, while latios hits harder its easier to trap and there's a reason why most teams run latias over latios..
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 273-322 (85.5 - 100.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 312-369 (104.3 - 123.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I remember a while ago (as in way back in ORAS OU VR V2) that Jukain said something about how he thinks that Latios should always be at least a sub-rank above Latias. I'll just pull it up now.
Jukain said:
Latias should always remain one rank behind Latios IMO and that's because it's much more exploitable than Latios. The extra bulk it has isn't all that relevant for the most part, especially considering the loss in power, and its main niche is Healing Wish, which is effective with offensive partners and is enough to give Latias a pretty solid niche over Latios, but it also means that Latias is much more strapped for moveslots and less versatile than Latios. Latios can run all kinds of sets and variants like Roost + 3 attacks with a variety of coverage options available for the third attack, Roost + Defog for a consistent Defogger and Keldeo check, and Choice Scarf to cripple defensive Pokemon with Trick and revenge kill faster foes like Mega Lopunny especially. More gimmicky, but still effective options like CM and Heal Block can even prove useful for certain teams to enhance Latios's breaking capabilities against more defensively oriented and balanced builds. Latios simply poses a much more multidimensional threat than Latias and this is enough to push it down to A Rank, especially seeing as Latias is typically even more easily taken advantage of by Pokemon like Clefable, Mega Metagross, and Heatran than Latios is.
TBH, pretty much all of that still applies (barring the part where he says CM is gimmicky) and it explains why Latias should be below Latios. AM makes further comments on it a little later in that thread too. Just pulling it up now:
AM said:
Their defensive difference is very small, and the small aspect is Healing Wish on Latias with a bit more bulk, not enough to bump it to the same rank as Latios. I quoted that post because it's exactly how I feel about Latias v Latios which is a fair comparison considering they're practically brother and sister mons who serve similar roles as offensive defoggers. Latios simply brings a different dynamic to builds that regular Latias doesn't provide. The majority of conventional switch ins to both Latias and Latios are generally the same but the key difference is that these switch ins to Latios are a bit more shaky than they are to Latias due to that capability of utilizing plenty of sets effectively, which furthers improve its splashability.
When he references "that post", he is referring to the Jukain one above. I'm not going to comment on it any more. Just read through what I quoted and you should understand why Latias is below Latios.
I remember a while ago (as in way back in ORAS OU VR V2) that Jukain said something about how he thinks that Latios should always be at least a sub-rank above Latias. I'll just pull it up now.
TBH, pretty much all of that still applies (barring the part where he says CM is gimmicky) and it explains why Latias should be below Latios. AM makes further comments on it a little later in that thread too. Just pulling it up now:
When he references "that post", he is referring to the Jukain one above. I'm not going to comment on it any more. Just read through what I quoted and you should understand why Latias is below Latios.
You also have to take into consideration (correct me if im wrong on this btw) that this was before the latias bulky defog set became popular, now their defensive differences have became far greater than their power differences so IDK if this still applies to the current metagame, A 20 percentage difference in a lo gengar sball is pretty big, compared to a 9-12 difference in power, anyway I feel that the meta has shifted enough to where we can at least re open the convo up because latias niches over latios are being maximized in the current metagame. The moveslot that latias loses for hw is not that bad most teams have answers to things like heatran and ferrothorn, and its bulk makes it hard to wear down besides lo damage, and as I posted from the calcs above neither latias nor latios is 2 hit koing clefable..
Latios also has higher regular attack which lets it run EQ for Heatran as a pretty solid lure. Latias is a lot weaker offensively so it can't do As much to its checks. Also I find I don't have room for anything in Latias most of the time. It doesn't have a free slot to work with. You want STABs+Defog on all Lati@s sets. (Well not all but most of the time..) Latias is pretty much forced to run Healing Wish as it's last or else it's just an inferior Latios. Latios has all the cool moves like t bolt, eq, hp fire, tailwind, memento, etc. Latias can't do that cuz it uses all 4 of its slots.
Healing Wish is cool, but not enough to raise it to A+.
Shaymin isn't better than Celebi. AoA Shaymin is better than AoA Celebi. For the reasons I've already mentioned, it has access to STAB Seed Flare (much stronger than Giga Drain, doesn't force you to switch out unlike Leaf Storm) and takes neutral damage from attacks like knock off, sucker punch and pursuit. I also like how you forget about Mega Sableye, a ghost-type Celebi struggles against, while Shaymin can send it to the bin. Weavile can't switch in and Bisharp is OHKOed by Earth Power.
I'd also like to note that Seed Flare has a pseudo-NP secondary effect. If you try to NP with Celebi, you're gonna have a bad time vs taunt users and special walls with phazing moves (spd skarmory). Seed Flare is different in the sense that it can't be Taunted and even if it doesn't score the SpD drop, it still does plenty of damage. Shaymin just attacks, Celebi cuts a dash with moves such as Thunder Wave and Nasty Plot.
Frankly, Shaymin is mostly outclassed, but as a bulky attacker it has a lot of perks over Serp and Celebi, so I think it should move up
As I clearly pointed out, these mons are switching out regardless, so the leaf storm drawback is inconsequential (especially since celebi has another stab option, and grass weak mons will hardly be coming in anyway)
Again, all of your arguments are things that are bad for both shaymin and celebi (you think either of them are taking on skarmory? Lol)
When does being sucker punch weak matter? Bisharp? What bisharp would sucker punch a celebi if the set wasn't revealed (which it probably won't be). Pursuit weak? Again, celebi 1hkos bisharp anyway, and tyrannitar has no business trying to stay in on a strong grass move.
Nasty plot is outright better than 40% for -2. It is consistent, it can't be switched out of, and it can be baton passed.
Yes, bpass can't fit on an aoa set, but that doesn't matter because aoa sets are bad on both of them. The only thing celebi has going for it is surprise (in comparison, shaymin has nothing going for it).
Lol when is nasty plot being taunted? That is just a dumb thing to argue. Celebi doesn't need nasty plot to be as strong as shaymin.... They have the same stats. It just has the luxury of being able to run it (because shaymin movepool sucks for a grass type). Again, dumb argument. Thundwewave lets it cripple all of its coumters. This stops it from being aoa, but that doesn't matter because aoa is a bad role to begin with (neither can ever get past their counters, as was already argued by srn). You refusing to acknowledge the utility that celebi has over shaymin just so that you can arbitrarily name the set "aoa" is the worst argument in this whole discussion (because aoa sucks to begin with on both of them)
There is probably a better argument for shaymin to move down than there is go move up. Again, none of you have even used shaymin (or you would know how bad it is), so you are just arguing for the sake of it (even worse: without testing or experience).
If you want an aoa that isn't celebi: mega venusaur (which also pretty much outclassed shaymin in its entirety, and it has a much better typing than both since you seem so caught up on that).
With the existence of celebi, venu, and serp, shaymin shouldn't even hold a place on the viability rankings, nonetheless move up for no good reason.
I dare you to produce a single legitimate (meaning not featuring awful plays) replay of shaymin doing something that celebi or serp cannot do better, because it is clear that you have never actually played with shaymin. You also probably have never fought shaymin because it is worthless and subsequently hard to fit on a team that isn't 6 cutemons.
Metamage shifts are awful to shaymin. The rise of serperior means that bulky grass resists (like torn-t and talonflame, which were mentioned by srn to completely shut down shaymin (while celebi can twave or bpass)). When has a detrimental meta shift ever resulted in an already outclassed mon moving up instead of down?
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As far as latias goes: it was only so good in bw because it fared much better than latios against weather.
I do frequently find myself wanting to use latias, though, and that is because of healing wish and the potential for surprise. Healing wish is such an invaluable move, so I won't go into that. The less obvious star is the typical lack of coverage that latias carries. That means that luring heatran with an earthquake is ez pz. Latios can't really do that because eq is standard.
Chandelier is interesting because it is the only other strong ghost type in the game iirc (but now we have hoopa too !). Ghost is a ridiculous offensive type. Not much can take shadow balls because not much even has a stab shadow ball (a single Mon in ou). Chandy would only be useful on a double ghost team with either modest lo or specs to break through the things that gengar can't (but also hoopa now exists). Dual hex especially is absolutely devistating
(quote glitched for me but this is daviswuhu post)Latias' niche over Latios is slightly better bulk and HW, but the first doesn't even matter that much when both pokemon get taken out by their threats like Bisharp or Weavile, and both die to Thundurus' Knock Off. Like Jukain and AM said, Latias is going to be strapped for moveslots if it runs HW while Latios doesn't have this restriction. It's just more versatile than Latias to the point where Latias is easily exploitable due to its relatively predictable set. Latios has more freedom to run Scarf, EQ, 3 Attacks Defog, LO Roost Defog, CM, etc. These extra sets make Latios more unpredictable and is the deciding factor between the two's rankings.[/quote]
My post
Couple things here, one 20 percent points in bulk is not a "slight difference" and calcs are just meant to show the difference in bulk or power... While all that you said is true running lure sets is never enough to make a mon a plus and latios is not the hardest to scout considering all the clefables running around and while the lure sets might work once in awhile they're not consistent enough....latias will ALWAYS do its job and thundey doesnt hit one hit ko latias lol (while its a roll to one hit ko latios) and has someone stated above a latias lure set is even MORE viable because NO ONE expects latias to carry eq or hp fire......
76 Atk Life Orb Thundurus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Latias: 239-283 (74.9 - 88.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I really don't understand your argument. Nor your logic.
How is Latios inferior to Latias when all it has is Healing Wish when Latios has all the cool shit like Tailwind, Memento, Heal Block, and can even use Earthquake. That's 1 to 4 buddy. Latios can cause Earthquakes, becomes speedy lickity split, curse the enemy with -1/-1, and keep shit like Mega Slowbro from becoming fatter with Heal Block. While all Latias does is pray to Arceus.
While all what you mentioned is true a lure set with latias is arguably better then one with latios....You can just take defog off 9assuming your team is not hazard weak or you have something else running it) and run eq or hp fire to lure heatran or steel types and NO ONE will expect that while most of us expect latios to be running one of those moves because most do.....and like I said the calc just shows the MASSIVE difference in bulk both has and if you have to get a healing wish off to your sweeper being able to tank a gengar hit or any hit is very useful
Nothing in the lower ranks is moving right now either. Celebi is like + two entire letter ranks higher than it lol and granted Shaymin isn't as shit as some have made it out to be on the thread but it's not like comparing an A- to a D Pokemon and thinking "oh this is a good idea to justify my logic" will matter cause there's a distinguished gap between them anyways.
Haxorus is dogshit and is fine in D, on paper it seems like a god until you realize in most games it practically needs an entire team to support it or like 4-5 Pokemon out of the picture to even be effective. Half the stuff that has been proclaimed to what it does isn't even applicable if it can't maintain itself to pull it off in the first place. Putting it above the likes of Mienshao, Metagross, Venusaur, Meloetta, and Jellicent who are some consistent D Pokemon that can pull some weight on specific teams is flawed as hell anyways.
Not too concerned with M-Gross placement at the moment, I know for awhile I've stopped using Zen Headbutt though to maximize coverage though since most times you're either spamming Meteor Mash or just a coverage move anyways and Zen is to hit specific targets like Rotom-W who aren't even difficult to build for. RP set is stupid against offense as well, which laughably is thrown to the way side as a niche set by the community most times. Then again my focus isn't really on those two, M-Scizor and M-Meta to start with. Just my two cents on that.
Hey AM, what about my regular Scizor nomination? I think it's definetely a B+ or maybe an A- mon at the moment. (A- might be a stretch, but B+ is defientely good.)
Hey AM, what about my regular Scizor nomination? I think it's definetely a B+ or maybe an A- mon at the moment. (A- might be a stretch, but B+ is defientely good.)
team thinks B+ is overselling it by a long shot. Its fine in B.
Highly doubt the latis are moving anywhere or at least by the notion that they are on any sort of equal footing, which they are not. Latios is really just better overall and what I said awhile back isnt going to change in this debate once again.
