Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[KlefkiHolder]

Of course but considering the 68 ev difference in special attack its not that substantial most things that latios 2 hit kos latias will also and vise versa, its well worth it considering the pretty big bulk difference the two mons have with that ste (why latias is the best defogger and utility mon in ou rn
if you wanted to run max special attack on latias you can also do this and still be bulkier then latias with access to healing wish of course latios runs that set better... but those difference arent as big as the massive bulk latias has over latios and its not like latias is weak anything dropping a draco with 110 base special attack and lo is going to hit hard, but taking a life orb gengar shadow ball is amazing mfing bulk (and as you can tell the bulk difference is about 20....) latios will always be the harder hitting mon but in this metagame defog and healingwish is HUGE for offense which is what many people think is the best type of team right now. Latias can just play so many roles for you and is just a pain in the ass in general, while latios hits harder its easier to trap and there's a reason why most teams run latias over latios..
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 273-322 (85.5 - 100.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 312-369 (104.3 - 123.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I don't see why we can say that Latias is doing pretty good considering that it carries less EVs.

Damage is damage, power is power. You cant make exceptions to that just because it suits you. Latias has its uses over Latios. Hell, I even use Latias more than Latios just bc of the things it can check/counter better (Keldeo, Electrics, etc) and more reliably. But I often do it reluctantly, because I have to. Latias is really that weak and exploitable compared to Latios, as my friend Jukain said way back when. It just isn't as good as its brother.

Also, the 72 HP "Bulky" Defog set has been around since early XY, very common, so I don't understand why it is some new huge thing for Latias. I also wouldn't call it a Bulky set because at the end of the say, its still, what, 18 more hitpoints? I mean, anyone who knows me knows that I like to EV a lot, and I really like to optimize my spreads and squeeze out every last hit point, because every last HP matters, but realistically, it still is just 18 HP at the end of the day. Nothing huge. I guess it is bulky compared to what Latios brings to the table, but compared to a Latias without any bulk... its not all that different or gamechanging.

MikeDawg's point of Latias being a better lure is intriguing, being less expected and all. I do think that is a very good point (though I wouldn't call EQ Latios standard but thats just semantics). However, I do feel this goes both ways. Personally, I use a lot of lures, and when I do use them, I prefer to get the kill the first time. Lure them and kill them while you can instead of coming close but just short and letting them get away afterwards. It's one of those things that sort of comes down to preference and all, I feel, but I do like to get the job done the first time, yea. Latias can do it, but not quite as well as Latios.

Also on the Healing Wish point, if I'm running Latias over Latios just for that move (which i have done, as I imagine many of us have before), its once again begrudgingly. Until I Hwish something up, I just feel like I'm using an inferior Latios the whole time. Its almost.... disgusting to be forced to downgrade myself for that. Healing Wish is a fantastic move yes (Not enough people use Hwish Clef), but every other turn i have my Latias out i just want to kick myself for it.

 

[teamsnickers]

I don't see why we can say that Latias is doing pretty good considering that it carries less EVs.

Damage is damage, power is power. You cant make exceptions to that just because it suits you. Latias has its uses over Latios. Hell, I even use Latias more than Latios just bc of the things it can check/counter better (Keldeo, Electrics, etc) and more reliably. But I often do it reluctantly, because I have to. Latias is really that weak and exploitable compared to Latios, as my friend Jukain said way back when. It just isn't as good as its brother.

Also, the 72 HP "Bulky" Defog set has been around since early XY, very common, so I don't understand why it is some new huge thing for Latias. I also wouldn't call it a Bulky set because at the end of the say, its still, what, 18 more hitpoints? I mean, anyone who knows me knows that I like to EV a lot, and I really like to optimize my spreads and squeeze out every last hit point, because every last HP matters, but realistically, it still is just 18 HP at the end of the day. Nothing huge. I guess it is bulky compared to what Latios brings to the table, but compared to a Latias without any bulk... its not all that different or gamechanging.

MikeDawg's point of Latias being a better lure is intriguing, being less expected and all. I do think that is a very good point (though I wouldn't call EQ Latios standard but thats just semantics). However, I do feel this goes both ways. Personally, I use a lot of lures, and when I do use them, I prefer to get the kill the first time. Lure them and kill them while you can instead of coming close but just short and letting them get away afterwards. It's one of those things that sort of comes down to preference and all, I feel, but I do like to get the job done the first time, yea. Latias can do it, but not quite as well as Latios.

Also on the Healing Wish point, if I'm running Latias over Latios just for that move (which i have done, as I imagine many of us have before), its once again begrudgingly. Until I Hwish something up, I just feel like I'm using an inferior Latios the whole time. Its almost.... disgusting to be forced to downgrade myself for that. Healing Wish is a fantastic move yes (Not enough people use Hwish Clef), but every other turn i have my Latias out i just want to kick myself for it.

While most of what you said I agree with Latios is not one hit koing things like heatran unless you run enough attack evs to do so(special d heatran set) and against most ferro sets it will cripples it which is enough but wont one hit ko it either so latias lure sets are pretty much as effective as latios in terms of kos and although latioas has more power of course latias lure sets will not be expected by to many people as mikedawg said which makes it a true lure
0 Atk Life Orb Latios Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 328-390 (84.9 - 101%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Life Orb Latias Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 296-354 (76.8 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


252 SpA Life Orb Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 265-312 (75.2 - 88.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
184 SpA Life Orb Latias Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 224-265 (63.6 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[Exeggutive]

Iirc the 72 HP EVs were to live a greninja ice beam... So that's not even relevant anymore. It does live KO from Thundurus but it still can't switch into anything Thundurus uses and expect to live a KO.
Also Latios 2hkos offensive Bisharp with draco so that's cool.

Also how does the bulk even matter when I'm only using Latias to sac for HW anyways.

 

[teamsnickers]

Iirc the 72 HP EVs were to live a greninja ice beam... So that's not even relevant anymore. It does live KO from Thundurus but it still can't switch into anything Thundurus uses and expect to live a KO.
Also Latios 2hkos offensive Bisharp with draco so that's cool.

Also how does the bulk even matter when I'm only using Latias to sac for HW anyways.

Latias can also be used as your defogger and you never sac a poke unless the situation makes you sac one.... and latias also 2 hit kos bisharp lol.....
184 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 156-183 (57.3 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Exeggutive]

Latias can also be used as your defogger and you never sac a poke unless the situation makes you sac one.... and latias also 2 hit kos bisharp lol.....
184 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 156-183 (57.3 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Dude... The second draco is only half as strong as the first. You CAN 2hko, but probably won't(need to get 2 max rolls pretty much). Latios 100% 2hkos Bisharp.

I meant by sacing by using HW when Lati is at like 20% health. So the extra bulk is irrelevant when I'm cutting its life short to use healing wish. Getting the hw off is nice though

 

[Martin]

Most of those moves that you motioned are very gimmicky and whi

Couple things here, one 20 percent points in bulk is not a "slight difference" and calcs are just meant to show the difference in bulk or power... While all that you said is true running lure sets is never enough to make a mon a plus and latios is not the hardest to scout considering all the clefables running around and while the lure sets might work once in awhile they're not consistent enough....latias will ALWAYS do its job and thundey doesnt hit one hit ko latias lol
76 Atk Life Orb Thundurus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Latias: 239-283 (74.9 - 88.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Using a super effective hit to demonstrate how big the difference in bulk is isn't a good idea as the difference is amplified to double that of a neutral hit of the same power. I'm going to do an overall bulk calculation to get a better idea of it, and I can promise you that the difference isn't very big at all:

Assuming Latios is running 4 SpD and Latias is running 72 HP, here is the difference in bulk:
Physical bulk:
Latias: (319*216)/100=689.04
Latios: (301*196)/100=589.96
Latias' bulk as a percentage of Latios': 116.79435894 (16.79435893958912% increase)

Special bulk:
Latias: (319*296)/100=944.24
Latios: (301*257)/100=773.57
Latias' bulk as a percentage of Latios': 122.06264462168906 (22.06264462168906% increase)

As far as the numbers go, Latias' bulk increase isn't actually that big. an approximately 17% increase in physical bulk and an approximately 22% increase in special bulk, while it seems significant, it only allows for a small number of additional hits to be taken. Now compare this to the significant difference in offensive prowess. For this, I will list the spread that I am using for each calculation next to the Pokémon's name due to me doing a number of different calculations for different sets:

Physical power:
Latios (24 Atk hasty (OHKOs SpD Tran after rocks): 222
Latias (0 Atk timid): 176
Latios' power as a percentage of Latias': 126.13636363636364 (26.13636363636364% increase)

Special power:
Latios (252 SpA timid): 359
Latias (184 SpA timid): 302
Latios' power as a percentage of Latias': 118.87417218543047 (18.87417218543047% increase)

Latios (232 SpA hasty): 354
Latias (184 SpA timid): 302
Latios' power as a percentage of Latias': 117.21854304635761 (17.21854304635761% increase)

The increase in power is, once again, not that big. However, unlike Latias' increase (which only ever lets it take specific hits which are either EVed to OHKO Latios or are hits that it shouldn't be thinking of staying in on anyway), Latios' increases allow it to exert a significant increase in offensive presence onto the opponent, as well as giving it the ability to OHKO Heatran with Earthquake using minimal investment or guarantee a 2HKO on bisharp with Draco when fully invested. This is the key issue with the argument that Latias' bulk is a major selling point when it is, in fact, a minor perk at the cost of making it more exploitable.

However, this is before you consider just how much more splashable Latios is compared to Latias. I mean, think about it: Latias fits on hyper offense and certain balance builds, but Latios fits on hyper offense, bulky offense, balance, offense, balanced offense etc. This is another big reason why Latias is ranked lower than Latios: it is comparatively un-splashable. If you were to build, say, 50 teams which involve at least five teams of every "core playstyle", I can promise you that you would come out of it with more base Latios teams than you would base Latias teams due to its more useful perks and its ability to fill a variety of roles on a team ranging from stallbreaker to offensive supporter to LO+3 attacks to scarf and even to all-out attacker. Latios is just so versatile while Latias is mostly one-dimensional when it comes to what she runs. I mean, sure you could carry HP Fire as a lure or something and that'd be more unpredictable than a HP Fire Latios, but the fact that it basically needs to carry Healing Wish to have any real niche over Latios as a supporter means that it is already strapped for moveslots before you even consider trying to carry a luring move. Also, I saw you mention EQ Latias further up the page, but I can tell you RN that it is inviable due to needing a significant amount of investment to guarantee an OHKO on SpD Heatran after rocks to the point of it just not being worth using.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Yeah it had something to do with Greninja, but it hits a Life Orb number so it's still usable. I usually just run 32 HP because I want Latias as strong as possible (but it still ends up being weak :/)

While most of what you said I agree with Latios is not one hit koing things like heatran unless you run enough attack evs to do so(special d heatran set) and against most ferro sets it will cripples it which is enough but wont one hit ko it either so latias lure sets are pretty much as effective as latios in terms of kos and although latioas has more power of course latias lure sets will not be expected by to many people as mikedawg said which makes it a true lure
0 Atk Life Orb Latios Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 328-390 (84.9 - 101%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Life Orb Latias Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 296-354 (76.8 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


252 SpA Life Orb Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 265-312 (75.2 - 88.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
184 SpA Life Orb Latias Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 224-265 (63.6 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

My point is that Latios requires less wearing down to get those crucial KOs.

After rocks, it has the favorable roll on Heatran, requires significantly less damage on ferro (that actually is a lot), threatens TTar a lot more if its been even a bit weakened, or severely weakens it for rocks to kill it after a few more switchins or relegating the Tar

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 176 SpD Mega Scizor: 291-343 (84.8 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
184 SpA Life Orb Latias Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 176 SpD Mega Scizor: 244-291 (71.1 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And then there's this. This is absolutely huge, especially since most Scizors have Bug Bite or Knock Off and can OHKO Lati back (KO + BP Kills, at least). Instead of potentially killing the Scizor (rocks once again give Latios the favorable roll while Scizor always lives after rocks to a Latias HP Fire), you only cripple it, which is big in its own right, but worse than the alternative.

Latias can also be used as your defogger and you never sac a poke unless the situation makes you sac one.... and latias also 2 hit kos bisharp lol.....
184 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 156-183 (57.3 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Do you realize that for Draco to kill in two hits you need two near max rolls?

Assuming you get the same exact roll twice, the first Draco needs to do a little more than 66.66% to Bisharp so the second can kill. Thats almost the max roll man. And you need it twice.

 

[thesecondbest]

To quote someone (I believe it was Dan "Frodan" from HS) :
"You want to be predictable so it leaves you room to be unpredictable". Nobody will expect eq Latias so it is actually a more surprising lurr. That being said, Latias is piss weak so it is actually a terrible lure. I don't really ca e about that topic but wanted to share the quote..And shaymin shouldn't riae, but Celebi should drop. It is certainly the worst A- Mon.

 

[Alfalfa]

To quote someone (I believe it was Dan "Frodan" from HS) :
"You want to be predictable so it leaves you room to be unpredictable". Nobody will expect eq Latias so it is actually a more surprising lurr. That being said, Latias is piss weak so it is actually a terrible lure. I don't really ca e about that topic but wanted to share the quote..And shaymin shouldn't riae, but Celebi should drop. It is certainly the worst A- Mon.

Celebi is pressured as hell in the current metagame, but the sheer support it provides is keeping it in A- Rank. Sure, there are a lot of Pokemon that pressure it defensively, but with its support capabilities in mind, I cannot see in the same rank as Breloom, Diggersby, Dragonite, and Mega Gallade, because so many Pokemon want what Celebi can provide to them.

 

[MikeDawg]

Uninvested latias is doing ~85% with earthquake to spdef heatran.

Heatran switches in to set rocks, fish for lava plume burn, toxic. It now can't switch into anything (two rocks switching will kill it anyway). Heatran is so vital to checking lots of mons. Taking it down to 20% is invaluable (plus it is then forced out).


Also, celebi (and subsequently shaymin tbh) should indeed drop probably. As mentioned, the meta is not kind to grass types, and celebi was already p bad in the meta to begin with.

 

[thesecondbest]

Celebi is pressured as hell in the current metagame, but the sheer support it provides is keeping it in A- Rank. Sure, there are a lot of Pokemon that pressure it defensively, but with its support capabilities in mind, I cannot see in the same rank as Breloom, Diggersby, Dragonite, and Mega Gallade, because so many Pokemon want what Celebi can provide to them.

As a support aspect it is outclassed by Mew. I see nothing it brings to the table besides lacking moves like bulk up, fire blast, knock off, WoW, and more. The only edge is beating keldeo better. That is not enough to keep it in the same rank. It should probably drop below B+ imo

 

[Alfalfa]

As a support aspect it is outclassed by New. I see nothing it brings to the table besides lacking moves like bulk up, fire blast, knock off, WoW, and more. The only edge is beating kelde o better. That is not enough to keep it in the same rank. It should probably drop below B+ imo

I am specifically referring to Baton Passing capabilities and Thunder Wave support, which Celebi finds better use of than Mew. Celebi is a better paralysis spreader because no Electric or Ground-types want to switch into Celebi, and Celebi has a unique palette of resistances that enable it to switch in, set up, and Baton Pass. It may have more difficulties Baton Passing stat boosts than before since Grass checks are becoming more common, but it still does such role pretty effectively.

 

[Cheryl.]

Time to post my thoughts on the current topics, which seem to be around the Latis right now:

Latios and Latias drop: Don't agree, Latios is a destructive force and even with stuff like Bisharp and Weavile running around, they can't exactly switch in, unless on a predicted Psyshock. Latias could drop, but it's still powerful and useful, although the only reason to use it over Latios is Healing Wish.

Celebi from A- to B+: While it's weaknesses are plenty and stuff that can beat it are everywhere, it's still a good supporter, although the AoA set is pretty shit, don't use it lol, unless you really need it over Serperior.
Now for some noms of my own:

Mega Latias from A to A-: I think it rose to A rank due to how beastly it was in the Lando-I meta. But now shit like Bisharp and Weavile are here, making it's job a lot harder, and Lando-I is gone. It can still be a good pokemon with the right support, but it's not as good now as it was then.

Mega Gallade from B+ to B: Other than Knock Off and higher speed, there is no reason to use this over Mega Medicham. And it still receives competition from the higher ranked megas, which pretty much outclass it. Mega Gallade could be good, but it's just not that good.

Cresselia from C+ to C: It's bulky, but it can't do shit in battle other than set up Trick Room, do shit for damage, or maybe spread status. Cresselia is a pretty meh pokemon overall imo.

I'm also still strong on my Scizor to B+ nom, but AM and the team rejected that, so eh. It can still happen, so Scizor to B+.

 

[MikeDawg]

But then what are you giving up? Defog? Roost? Psyshock? If you run EQ you give up utility or STAB assuming you run HW. Latios doesn't have that problem, as it can keep Defog and its STABs.

Give up psyshock. Nobody is about to keep megavenu in anyway (hence the point of it being a lure).

Of ditch defog. Latias doesn't have to be a defoger.

-Dmeteor/HP fire
-Psyshock/HP Fire
-Earthquake/HP fire
-Healing Wish

Lures heatran ez, lures venu that think you are carrying Dmeteor and equake as the attacks, lures ferro/scizor that think you are carrying ______, etc.

That is the whole point of a lure. Sacrificing a typically consistent and common move for a niche one to kill a Mon that your team struggles with.

 

[BlueLobster]

WTF happened to this thread when the Latis were brought up? Seriously, we all know what a lure is (and if you don't why are you posting in this thread), and Latios is better than Latias in most cases, which is what the ranks reflect. Yes Latias actually lures Tran (EQ is so common these days I'd think twice before switching in), and has HW but that's really it. The bulk matters less than the power considering it's an offensive defogger and is generally used on HO, and AM's already said "highly doubt the latis are moving anywhere". This discussion is rather pointless and shitty.

Sorry for making this post, just read all this rot while catching up from the last update and I could shoot myself.

 

[Cheryl.]

WTF happened to this thread when the Latis were brought up? Seriously, we all know what a lure is (and if you don't why are you posting in this thread), and Latios is better than Latias in most cases, which is what the ranks reflect. Yes Latias actually lures Tran (EQ is so common these days I'd think twice before switching in), and has HW but that's really it. The bulk matters less than the power considering it's an offensive defogger and is generally used on HO, and AM's already said "highly doubt the latis are moving anywhere". This discussion is rather pointless and shitty.

Sorry for making this post, just read all this rot while catching up from the last update and I could shoot myself.

Omg you got it all right. AM already said "The Latis aren't moving" and yet we still argue over what this Lati lure is. Can we all move on please and focus on other things?

 

[TPP]

I wanna get some opinions about Klefki going up to A rank.

Klefki has one of the best typings with Fairy/Steel and prankster utility moves are extremely great. Thunder Wave helps a ton and Fairy Lock (something I've tried out recently with great success) is a great option, as it can help set up for easy revenge killing (the opponent can't switch out the next turn if it KO's Klefki after it uses Fairy Lock). Hazard stacking is fantastic, and it's also able to check/cripple several threats such as Weavile. Magnet rise can also help it stay in against ground types like Hippowdon and scarf Lando-T, which can't do anything but switch it out with Whirlwind, or switch themselves out. If it can't KO the opponent, then it can either cripple them with T-wave, or if it can't paralyze them, then it can trap them for revenge killing with Fairy Lock. Imo it could rise, and I'd like to get y'alls opinions on it too, thanks!

Edit: I got some more on Klefki. Klefki definitely does struggle with stuff like Hippowdon, and 4MSS is also a huge problem for it too. Another pro for using Fairy Lock, is that besides setting up an easy revenge kill, it could also be used to have a free turn to set up. For example, if you have Klefki out and they put in Magnezone, you're trapped. What you can do is use Fairy Lock to trap magnezone for next turn, and then use that turn to set up with something like Charizard-X or Mega Altaria (depends on the mon being trapped). Alternatively, Fairy Lock could be used to get rid of a check/counter for your team's set up sweeper/win condition. You'll have to sack Klefki, but as long as you can revenge kill, winning with that sweeper/win condition can potentially become easier. It's an interesting eye for an eye strategy that could definitely help in a battle. When facing it, sometimes it's hard to tell what it's moveset has because it could be Thunder Wave, Spikes, Toxic, Magnet Rise, Light Screen, Reflect, Fairy Lock, Foul Play, Play Rough, Dazzling Gleam, and etc. It also has the option to be physically defensive or specially defensive, so killing it can be tricky if you don't have a strong ground or fire type.

 

[Srn]

I wanna get some opinions about Klefki going up to A rank.

Klefki has one of the best typings with Fairy/Steel and prankster utility moves are extremely great. Thunder Wave helps a ton and Fairy Lock (something I've tried out recently with great success) is a great option, as it can help set up for easy revenge killing (the opponent can't switch out the next turn if it KO's Klefki after it uses Fairy Lock). Hazard stacking is fantastic, and it's also able to check/cripple several threats such as Weavile. Magnet rise can also help it stay in against ground types like Hippowdon and scarf Lando-T, which can't do anything but switch it out with Whirlwind, or switch themselves out. If it can't KO the opponent, then it can either cripple them with T-wave, or if it can't paralyze them, then it can trap them for revenge killing with Fairy Lock. Imo it could rise, and I'd like to get y'alls opinions on it too, thanks!

Everything you've said is correct, but I mostly just feel like klefki makes more sense in A- as opposed to A. I simply dont see it alongside mega manectric, slowbro, ttar, hippowdon, and ferro. It just feels in practice more like an A- mon, more like normal gyara, raikou, serperior, and volc; things that aren't incredibly common but work well on the right teams. I'm ok with it being in A but if i had to pick i would definitely keep it in A-.

Also, considering all the ferro+clefable+hippo balance that's running rampant and being popular (hippo, clefable, and ferro are #2, #5, and #20 in wcop usage, respectively) special fire types like char-y and heatran are getting more popular (tran is the 9th most used mon in wcop, and THE most used mon in 1825+ ladder), which are what klefki has the absolute worst matchup against. bulky chomp is getting popular as well but it doesn't exactly stop char-y and heatran can run hp ice to get past it. Scizor's extremely high usage makes special fires more viable rn as well (#4 in wcop usage, #9 in 1825+ ladder)

 

[BlueLobster]

I support Klefki to A simply as it's one of the best support mons for offensive teams rn, being able to T-Wave, lay spikes and use fairy lock all in one mon without being setup bait to SD mons due to foul play is really cool. It gives offende teams a massive bonus when matched V other offensive teams, and while in theory easy to beat, it almost always cripples a mon before going down. As Srn says, it hates facing Charizard, but Zard also hates being crippled. It has a bad matchup V hippo, but with magnet rise makes it a spikes setup target. The one thing it does have bad is 4MSS, it ideally wants spikes, T-Wave, Magnet rise and foul play, but also would like fairy lock, and has even worse moveslot trouble if you're using it as a double screener. A well played Klefki can be rediculously annoying, which is why I'd like to see it in A, although I don't mind too much, as it could be too matchup reliant to be A, due to prominent bad matchups and 4MSS not letting it eliviate them all in one set.

 

[Jaroda]

I think I may support a rise for Klefki to A because its true how splashable its is and what an amazing support to balance and particularly HO it is. It's amazing typing combined with prankster makes it just an amazing pivot, something HO really appreciates, while not sacrificing momentum thanks to Klefki numerous tools for crippling the enemy from setting up whether it be T-Wave, Foul Play, or Switcheroo. Its a better user of Prankster T-Wave than Thundurus thanks to its SR resistance opposed to a weakness, so it can actually switch in a few times. On top of that its priority Spikes and Dual Screens are amazingly beneficial as well for offensive teams. Soemtimes even just a single layer of Spikes and Reflect can make all the difference. Finally, if you want, it can comically stall out certain Hippo and Tankchomp with a combination of Magnet Rise and Toxic. Unfortunately it is susceptible to Magnezone and a lack of recovery is certainly balls, as it can't pivot for long, and it may find itself stretched thin at times between all the roles you want it to accomplish, but I think as a support mon and defensive pivot its a class above Celebi and a fine substitute for Skarmory.

 

[Electric Downfall]

Nidoking D -> C+

Sure, Nidoking is in UU, say what you want about that, but some UU mons have roles in OU, and this one is no exception. He is one of very few Pokémon to be blessed with a good use of Sheer Force as he can be a Physical or Special sweeper thanks to his amazing movepool with 2 good STAB moves, as well as amazing coverage with t-bolt, ice beam, and flamethrower for special nidos, and the elemental punches for physical nidos. He's also able to hold Life Orb with no recoil, so he'll last longer than most sweepers. Just watch out for Psychic, Ground, Water, and Ice types. Those are his only four weaknesses, so you should be safe to switch in or stay in against most mons, considering he will likely have something to cover them. He has a decent 102/85 attack stats, but average 85 speed and his anything but amazing 81/77/75 defenses.

Watch this video and you'll see what i mean.

 

[Ramses]

Nidoking D -> C+

Sure, Nidoking is in UU, say what you want about that, but some UU mons have roles in OU, and this one is no exception. He is one of very few Pokémon to be blessed with a good use of Sheer Force as he can be a Physical or Special sweeper thanks to his amazing movepool with 2 good STAB moves, as well as amazing coverage with t-bolt, ice beam, and flamethrower for special nidos, and the elemental punches for physical nidos. He's also able to hold Life Orb with no recoil, so he'll last longer than most sweepers. Just watch out for Psychic, Ground, Water, and Ice types. Those are his only four weaknesses, so you should be safe to switch in or stay in against most mons, considering he will likely have something to cover them. He has a decent 102/85 attack stats, but average 85 speed and his anything but amazing 81/77/75 defenses.

Watch this video and you'll see what i mean.

lol we know about weaknesses and stuff.

Nidoking is horribly outclassed as a Wallbreaker (FYI he's not a Sweeper. Far from it). Like there are so many better options to use than Nidoking. Gengar, Alakazam (who has Magic Guard), Keldeo, Latios, Mega Charizard Y, and that's just naming a few. Sure he has a huge movepool that Keldeo would kill for but he's just too... subpar. There's nothing spectacular about it. That's why he's in UU now. He's not incredibly good or anything. Those defenses aren't anything to write home about and speed. Alakazam has shit defenses but that doesn't mean anything when you can OHKO what's trying to kill you first.

Nidoqueen is better than Nidoking. At least it can take a hit, set up TSpikes and SR, while still hitting moderately hard. If you really want to use Nidoking I guess he can be an ass Scarfer or REQUIRE Dual Screen Support while still being ass, or Tailwind or Twave Support. While still being ass

Also:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 8 HP / 4 SpD Abomasnow: 452-533 (139.9 - 165%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 8 HP / 4 SpD Abomasnow: 463-546 (143.3 - 169%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Even with Sheer Force and a Life Orb, Gengar can still outdamage it.

EDIT: not trying to seem harsh but it is what it is.

 

[GlassVeins]

Nidoking D -> C+

Sure, Nidoking is in UU, say what you want about that, but some UU mons have roles in OU, and this one is no exception. He is one of very few Pokémon to be blessed with a good use of Sheer Force as he can be a Physical or Special sweeper thanks to his amazing movepool with 2 good STAB moves, as well as amazing coverage with t-bolt, ice beam, and flamethrower for special nidos, and the elemental punches for physical nidos. He's also able to hold Life Orb with no recoil, so he'll last longer than most sweepers. Just watch out for Psychic, Ground, Water, and Ice types. Those are his only four weaknesses, so you should be safe to switch in or stay in against most mons, considering he will likely have something to cover them. He has a decent 102/85 attack stats, but average 85 speed and his anything but amazing 81/77/75 defenses.

Watch this video and you'll see what i mean.

You do know that those four types are some of the best attacking types in OU right now, right? I'm not sure about him rising, tbh. sure he hits hard and has great coverage, but his speed is a major letdown, cause you can't very well scarf him. he just rose to D rank a few weeks ago. why don't you add some replays onto your post? that would make your position much stronger.
EDIT: partially ninja'd, KidMagic

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Nidoking D -> C+

Sure, Nidoking is in UU, say what you want about that, but some UU mons have roles in OU, and this one is no exception. He is one of very few Pokémon to be blessed with a good use of Sheer Force as he can be a Physical or Special sweeper thanks to his amazing movepool with 2 good STAB moves, as well as amazing coverage with t-bolt, ice beam, and flamethrower for special nidos, and the elemental punches for physical nidos. He's also able to hold Life Orb with no recoil, so he'll last longer than most sweepers. Just watch out for Psychic, Ground, Water, and Ice types. Those are his only four weaknesses, so you should be safe to switch in or stay in against most mons, considering he will likely have something to cover them. He has a decent 102/85 attack stats, but average 85 speed and his anything but amazing 81/77/75 defenses.

Watch this video and you'll see what i mean.

First of all, Physical Nidoking is downright unusable, hell even in UU Physical Nidoking isn't used. Second, why would I use Nidoking over a better wallbrekaer such as Mega Zard Y or Gengar, I mean I just don't see any reason. Atleast Nidoqueen has enough bulk to also set up hazards

 

[Halcyon.]

To those saying that Nidoking is outclassed or bad or doesn't hit hard, I highly recommend you actually use it AND face it before making such knee-jerk reactions. Nidoking hits unbelievably hard with its near perfect coverage it is an incredible balance breaker. It hits Heatran, Ferrothorn Skarmory, Hippowdon, Clefable Tornadus-T, Azumarill, Scizor, Landorus-T, Celebi, Klefki, Lati@s, Raikou, Jirachi, Tangrowth, and more for super effective damage, resulting in AT LEAST a 2HKO on all of these Pokemon. This thing gets a free switch on just about every Clefable (I guess Ice Beam would be annoying to switch in but most are T-wave rn anyway) and gets to fire off a powerful hit from there. The best way to beat Nidoking is offensively, but not many offensive mons can switch into it. Your best bet is either to sack something or bait a coverage move (i.e., go out to Landorus-T then Keldeo on the Ice Beam), but even resisted hits are still taking hazards damage (nido works best on spikes stacking teams anyway). But even stuff like Lati can be taken down with Sucker Punch, which is a totally viable move.

The only thing is that Hoopa-U's presence has led to a decrease in fat balance teams (which Nido has the best match up against), so it's possible that it's not as good in a Hoopa metagame as it was before. But it was used twice (to my knowledge) in WCOP so far, which is more than most things in the D-C+ ranks can say. It's a neat Pokemon with great coverage and decent typing. Yeah it's slow but it threatens balance so much that I think its worth raising. Not sure how high but its better than D for sure.