Yeah just noticed that right now.
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Battle Maison Discussion & Records
- Thread starter NoCheese
- Start date
252 SpA Gengar Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Octillery: 130-154 (71.4 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Virizion Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Octillery: 116-140 (63.7 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Sceptile Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Octillery: 134-158 (73.6 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
The only Energy Ball user past battle 40 who may OHKO Octillery is Specs Latios3, who is rare and also able to OHKO it with multiple moves, like Draco Meteor and Thunder. This list excludes Anastasia's Gardevoir3 and the occasional Ninetales4 because they're weaker than something else on this list (the Gengar listed is also Set 3, used by Anastasia.)
252 SpA Gengar Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Octillery: 130-154 (71.4 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Raichu Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Octillery: 152-180 (83.5 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Gardevoir Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Octillery: 138-164 (75.8 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Octillery: 170-204 (93.4 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Probopass Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Octillery: 130-153 (71.4 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Octillery: 134-158 (73.6 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Octillery: 188-224 (103.2 - 123%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Notice how much investment, even with STAB, it requires to secure the OHKO on Octillery with Thunderbolt, a very common move past battle 40. Jolteon comes close, but only 68% close. Zapdos1, who runs max investment with a neutral nature, will always OHKO. This list excludes things like Starmie4, substantially weaker than Modest Gardevoir, Thundurus, who parallels Zapdos in strength, and Magnezone4, who outmuscles Zapdos1 considerably. Magnzeone is kind of a problem, period, because its Assault Vest requires rain activated to guarantee a KO with Water Spout, and it can potentially survive it with Sturdy.
252+ SpA Sniper Octillery Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Regice in Rain on a critical hit: 171-202 (91.4 - 108%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Mega Camerupt Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Regice in Sun: 186-218 (99.4 - 116.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Regice1, the target and bulkiest Regice encountered. I post this because Camerupt also has weather, a supereffective hit and higher offense on its side, yet still has a slight chance to miss the OHKO. Octilerry has a lesser chance of scoring the OHKO, but the chance is still there, and it inflicts an absolutely ludicrous amount of damage. It's also worth mentioning that Suicune, who Camerupt cannot OHKO under any circumstance without Aron, is OHKOd 75% of the time by Octillery (bulky variants; Suicune4 cannot survive it.) The nature of crits also prevents Suicune from softening the blow with Calm Mind spam.
You obviously ran not a single damage calc when you said that. Aron being present means the AI will target it with those 2HKO moves the overwhelming majority of the time, and while Ampharos4, Magnezone4 and the like will not be *that* rare, there's the just as likely odds that they'll be in the opposite corner of Octillery or not sent out as leads, which gives Octillery the chance to kill them.
Do not underestimate the gross damage overload from Sniper. The Octillery in that calc held no offensive item, inflicting that damage through its own strength. Scope Lens and Focus Energy give it a 100% crit rate, and you've got Aromatisse to heal it from spread moves, who will also thankfully outspeed it under TR.
Given how strong Fire types are just as likely to appear as Electric, and how Amoonguss is weak to a type that will never be unable to hit it from anywhere, I'd be more eager to use Octillery as a lead. I'd try this myself, but whenever I get back to playing, I intend to use my Slowbro/Aron/M-Camerupt/Gardevoir/Clawitzer/Landorus-T team until it loses.
Edit: Two questions for turskain in regards to his proposed team:
-While it's a very remote chance of an OHKO, what would you typically do with Rampardos4 in play? Mold Breaker Head Smash ignores Friend Guard and has a 12.5% chance to do the deed. In my experiences, Clefairy wouldn't necessarily be a magnet for the attack. There's obviously Follow Me, but Rampardos4 is Relaxed and has shitty speed, so Clefairy could potentially be killed by other moves before it connected.
I don't like the prospect of a TR setter with limited bulk like Aromatisse being centered because it means every Rock Slide, Blizzard, and so on has a chance to inflict its secondary effect (though you do get to null at least one freeze with Lum), and you don't lead with your Wide Guard. Excadrill is able to 2HKO with Earthquake with Mold Breaker, and with a first-turn flinch, it'll put Aromatisse in range for an easy finish with Poison Jab.
-Are there any scenarios you can conceive, apart from TR failure, where you'd really appreciate Flamethrower on a non-lead Camerupt over Solarbeam? While the former is more than likely to pop up a few times, Solarbeam greatly expands the list of things Camerupt can slaughter by itself. It's a move you're likely to use often (since it'd take the place of one of your FEARs, typically) versus a move you're unlikely to use. Then again, you don't have Heal Pulse.
I like your team, but center Aromatisse bugs me and Clefairy doesn't actually seem like it brings much more to the table. Aron's Endeavor works because a ton of things can manage to scrape together 12 HP of damage. 48 is a much taller order on a resist, and you compromised Aromatisse's overall bulk for it.
Also, Clawitzer not being movelocked was of tremendous importance when I needed to send it out. You have nothing but single-target moves and while he has excellent coverage, you need to be able to easily work around the many different scenarios that'll pop up. IMO specs is viable on something like Sylveon because it has only one attack worth using much of the time.
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I gave a quick glance at the OP and I noticed no one seems to have attempted (successfully, anyway) Mega Slowbro in Singles and/or Rotation. At a first glance, the Surf/Iron Defense/Calm Mind/Rest set seems pretty potent. It can set up on everything except Electric/Grass/Dark/Ghost/Bug sp. attackers and OHKO move users - and, once it's fully set up, only the latters pose a threat. Now, countering Electric/Grass/Dark/Ghost/Bug attackers isn't easy but it can be done (AV Goodra is a decent answer to most of them), and OHKO moves are not too prevalent from my experience... not the dangerous Quick Claw variant, anyway. What are your thoughts on Mega Slowbro? Is it viable?
Right, Mold Breaker... I forgot about it piercing Friend Guard entirely.
It could be survived, but Lv16 Clefairy does seem a little dubious and could be scrapped in favor of a different Friend Guard Pokémon at Level 1 instead; Igglybuff could run a set of Endeavor/Pain Split/Gravity/Protect with the ability at level 1, with Pain Split mostly hitting Ghosts.
The entire purpose of Clefairy and the reason Aromatisse is in the center is having Friend Guard to make Aromatisse which can handle to both status and Taunt "invincible" - initially, I had Aromatisse on the left and Clefairy on the right, and only rotated Aroma to the center so it could use Dazzling Gleam on the whole field. With the massive bulk boost of Friend Guard and an Lv1 Clefairy, there's other stuff that could be viable, such as...
Hypno has Inner Focus for protection against flinches and Fake Out, and could run Mental Herb on top - I wonder if two Lv1 Pokémon provide greater bait than just one, and make Taunt a less likely option? Maybe Lum could be viable as well to protect against both a Blizzard freeze and flinching while passing on Taunt. With Friend Guard and 252/252 Bold, it would have viable bulk, surviving Escavalier4 Megahorn, Clawitzer4 Dark Pulse, and Tyrantrum4 Crunch and Mold Breaker Rampardos Head Smash. With Lv1 partners to make attacking power less necessary, it seems pretty similar to Aromatisse except with its Ability giving it immunity to flinching rather than Taunt, and worse support moves and stats. I didn't think of Hypno before - maybe the reliability boost from Inner Focus would be better to have than Aroma Veil.
Life Orb could be freed up for Clawitzer by running a different item on Aegislash, which could be alright though not ideal for Aegi under TR. I definitely want Wide Guard, though - maybe even Parasect with Spore off of Base 30 Speed and Wide Guard, heh - and 4x resistance to Ground and absorbing Water, the Shift synergy with Camerupt is enormous! And Rage Powder as well. At this point I'm probably forced to try it.
Flamethrower on Mega Camerupt was just tossed on - since I'm going for Wide Guard, I suppose I don't need Flamethrower as badly and could also go for Solar Beam.
Edit:
I did theorymon a Dual Screens Klefki / Mega Slowbro team, with screens doubling Mega Slowbro's bulk with immunity to crits so that it can also shrug off most super-effective hits. I definitely think it's viable, especially with screen support, though it seems extreme Taunt bait and vulnerable to OHKO moves and status.
That's Rotations - in Singles, I think its weaknesses and low Speed leave it entirely outclassed by Suicune. It would have a good chance of losing to Pokémon such as Vaporeon4 and Glaceon4 with Shadow Ball/Bug Buzz not being moves you want to be taking with their hax properties - and as a bulky Water, taking on the likes of Glaceon/Vaporeon/Froslass/etc is what Mega Slowbro is supposed to accomplish.
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VaporeonIce had pretty similar experiences with Taunt compared to me- extremely rare, but yeah, of course it's especially bad for this team. While I don't remember if he had any notable encounters with it, the only one that really stands out to me was Electrode. Since its moveset is largely support, and I think the AI consciously wants to use those moves- before settling on an attack, it usually opened with Light Screen- but generally didn't bother targeting Slowbro with Taunt, on the occasions it used that instead.
Otherwise there was IIRC a single usage from Aggron4 and Vanilluxe4 apiece, as well as Crobat. I know Slowbro was targeted with it a couple times, but otherwise it was used dumbly. Anyway, if I'm trying to make a point through all this, it's that I don't really think two instant death-targets will make much of a difference (though it is worth testing over many mock battles.) If Taunt immunity weren't so important I wouldn't bother with it, since it was rarer than Swagger. Bold Hypno seems like a very suitable alternative, especially if it isn't vulnerable to the kind of Mold Breaker bullshit that can occur. Mental Herb would also be an acceptable safeguard for MB Sawk4's Taunt, which I never personally encountered but of which I was aware.
You're right I didn't check any damage calcs. I just assumed that with 75/75/75 bulk it was gonna be KO'd by more attacks. But I guess with a good typing and 252HP investment thats enough. I'll definitely try that out so thanks for those damage calcs!
I'm pretty sure Audino was never hit by Taunt, although I did have Fake Out support from Hariyama to help mitigate the risk. Swagger was a bigger issue, but that also only happened two or three times.
Slowbro's most common comparison is Suicune, and losing out on Pressure, the speed, and a mega slot is not worth the increased bulk, especially because the right teammates (like Gliscor and some steel mega) would ensure that Suicune would rarely have to risk a meaningful critical hit in the first place.
When you talk about special attackers, Chansey shuts all those things down except OHKO and Leech Seed users, and at that point you're comparing Slowbro to Kangaskhan (which can take on a similarly high percentage of things after using Power-up Punch once while being able to switch in and do some good damage if an inopportune set-up sweeper comes in on a defensive Pokemon).
I had very few run ins with Taunt during my run in Super Triples, as well. Out of all 1000, there was only one instance of a Turn 1 Taunt stopping my Dusclops from setting up Trick Room.
For quite a while now, I've had a little bit of nagging insecurity in my Singles prowess. I knew I had perfected the Durant strategy, and I knew a lot of thought and preparation went into Team Plaguarism, but there was still this itching doubt in my mind: "How well can you do WITHOUT Durant?" That was especially true because Durant had proven itself to be the preferred strategy of (what I believed to be) fake streaks, and has quite a reputation on Reddit as "the only way to win in the Maison." Obviously, we know that's not true, but I didn't know if it was true of ME. After all, Togekiss/Aegislash/MegaKhan, while good at the time, hardly holds up to today's standards for Singles. I was wondering just what I was capable of. I think the back of my mind was thinking through how to make a good Singles team that looks different (at least on the surface) than Kangliscune.
On the way to my friend Solomon's wedding (to another one of my dear friends, which is always awesome), an idea popped into my head. No chain of theorymon, no battles for trial and error: just a collection of three Pokemon that seemed like they could work really well together. And when I tried them out, I was astonished. I usually name the Pokemon on my team after I'm confident they'll be really good or I've just played them enough to get attached to them. As an example, I don't think I named Mega Lopunny and friends until I was over 100 battles in. My Triples team didn't get named until I was over 200 wins in, IIRC. If memory serves, these three got nicknames before I got to 50 (if not, it was immediately afterward), because when I started playing the team, their synergy and raw efficacy was immediately obvious. I knew I was on to something special.
I'm posting a(n unfortunately completed) streak of 2,228 wins in Omega Ruby Super Singles.
Salamence (M) @ Salamencite (Solomence)
Ability: Intimidate
Nature: Jolly
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 12 SpD / 236 Spe
~ Substitute
~ Dragon Dance
~ Roost
~ Return
Aegislash (M) @ Leftovers (Child's Play)
Ability: Stance Change
Nature: Adamant
IVs: 27 Spe
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
~ King's Shield
~ Swords Dance
~ Shadow Sneak
~ Sacred Sword
Chansey (F) @ Eviolite (Mean Bean)
Ability: Natural Cure
Nature: Bold
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
~ Softboiled
~ Growl
~ Toxic
~ Seismic Toss
Basically, the team is designed to be virtually impenetrable to physical attacks, while using Chansey as a catch-all special wall that can stop basically anything lacking Stored Power. It sort of blends the goodstuffs and crippler strategies, since all three of my Pokemon have ways of lowering Atk. I'd say that probably 40-50% of battles result in me setting up Salamence and sweeping, so the other Pokemon put in a LOT of work besides just setting up for Mence. My goal states against the first Pokemon, in order, are:
1) Mence at +4 or higher and full health (or full health minus one Sub) behind a Sub.
2) Fully set-up Aegislash
3) Chansey KOs the opposing lead
4) Mega Mence KOs the opposing lead unboosted (or with one or two boosts)
5) Aegislash KOs the opposing lead unboosted (or at +2 or +4); when it does this, you REALLY want it to be in Blade Forme, rather than having the opponent die to Toxic while you're in Shield.
(Note that list isn't SUPER precise, so I may something make lead plays that slightly contradict that, particularly the ordering of 3, 4, and 5)
Minimizing risk is important, as always, so I try to never have Aegislash or Mence take a potential burn or paralysis. I'm somewhat lax on that for burns on Mence, because he can often get to +6 against an opponent who can burn and sweep anyway with +6 Speed and the equivalent of +2 Atk while behind a Sub. I've become slightly more lax with paralysis on Aegislash against Thundurus1 and Klinklang4, who can be really annoying to Chansey with Toxic and recovery and will often give Aegislash free set-up turns with Protect.
This team has some definite threats, and there are certain Pokemon or strategies I hate seeing. This is in the lead position, though some of them are threatening afterward if they come out against Chansey or a not-fully-setup Aegislash or Salamence.
The overwhelming majority of battles end with 3-0 victories. If one of my Pokemon faints, it's generally either something I planned (and the opponent is on their third Pokemon, so I know that I'm about to win) or I'm facing a lead Articuno2. On very rare occasions, I've lost a Pokemon to some kind of surprise (such as Chansey fainting to consecutive crit Focus Blasts from Gardevoir4), but very few Pokemon can beat two of my three Pokemon anyway. The team has a lot of redundancy built in, so I can typically do what I need to do (e.g. Mega Mence can set up on most Rock type attacks even without Aegislash's help, thanks to Roost weakening the Rock move).
I saved a bunch of battle videos, but it's hard to pick out ones that are particularly significant. This one was super annoying, and really demonstrates how awesome Mega Mence's bulk is: HZDG-WWWW-WW2E-XDXJ
The Drapion4 at the end scared the shit out of me, but it avoidance of SD helped.
I actually lost with this team once before this, at battle #748. I have that saved on a different 3DS that I don't have with me right now, but it was basically because Skarmory4 threw down a bunch of hazards and I played like absolute shit against the Gyarados3 that came out next. Once I recognized how awful my play was in that battle, I decided to try again and aim higher, because I knew the team was capable of a lot more. I'm glad I did.
The final loss, #2229: RCEG-WWWW-WW2E-XB87
Vs. Artist Wenge with Porygon-Z4, Rapidash4, Metagross4
Everything proceeds as normal against P-Z4 (Chansey KOs it and escapes unscathed, thanks to Natural Cure removing Tri Attack paralysis).
Rapidash4 comes in, and I aim to KO it with Chansey. In retrospect, I theoretically should have set up Mence against it, but a full-health Mence and Aegislash, and a moderately healthy Chansey has never before failed to win me a battle. Rapidash gets a Flare Blitz crit to do heavy damage to Chansey, but more importantly, it kills itself. Chansey's at about 1/3 health. No worries: Chansey at 1/3 health + Mega Mence + Aegislash beats everything.
Metagross4 comes in. I'm a little worried it will Meteor Mash on the switch, but I go to Mence anyway to exploit the terrible AI. It uses Trick on the switch; Intimidate is blocked by Clear Body. Sweet deal: Mence comes in with no damage. I DD up once, expecting it to keep spamming Trick like it always does. Instead, it uses Meteor Mash and gets an Attack boost. Before I recognized that Metagross4 would spam Trick against Mence, I used to stall out its Mash PP by exploiting its tendency to use Protect to heal up with Roost. I decide to do the same here: I use Roost. Metagross attacks with Meteor Mash, hits, and gets an Attack boost again. I know Mence can take another hit after a Roost, and the goal is to stall out Meteor Mash. I figure that, if it boosts Atk again, I can switch to Aegislash and start switch-stalling its Mash PP until I can set up Mence. It gets a fucking crit Atk boost, KOing Mence. I try to set up a Swords Dance with Aegislash, since maybe a crit can OHKO or it will do something stupid? But +3 EQ OHKOs Aegislash (+2 usually doesn't), and it proceeds to KO Chansey on the next turn.
I didn't get my goal of beating Team Drapula's legendary 2516 run. I was hoping to at least hit 2367, so that this team would have a higher record on the leaderboard until (or if) I decide to post again about Plaguarism. But honestly, I don't feel too bad. Yes, I could have played differently, and I would have won if I had. But switching to Aegislash earlier against Metagross was risky, because the risk of Trick means it has to switch out every time it comes in, reducing Leftovers recovery and making it hard to tank the boosted Meteor Mashes. And theoretically, I could have switched out Chansey and set up Mence against Rapidash. But there's never been any reason to doubt all three of my Pokemon when they're alive and kicking, and I never even thought the AI would stop using the "spam Trick" approach to Metagross, because it has literally NEVER done anything else in the lead position (except throw in a few Protects). Plus, if I switched out Chansey and set up Mence against the second Pokemon every time that I possibly could, this team would be even slower than it already is, with only very occasional payoff. I already play extremely cautiously; I didn't have a lot of motivation to be even more cautious.
I think I'm okay with losing because I've lost a lot of motivation for the Maison in general. Make no mistake: This team is my pride and joy. I consider it my Battle Maison magnum opus, even if it didn't get as far as Team Plaguarism did. As Jumpman16 experienced, there's a unique pride that comes from going this far with a "no gimmicks" team (although I suppose some might consider switch-stalling a gimmick, I see it as pretty standard fare for Maison stall). I feel like I've proven myself in a way that (in my mind) I hadn't before, and that means a lot to me. I think I played well in the battle I lost (not perfectly, but well), and it was a fair loss. This team, unlike Plaguarism, is vulnerable to quite a few "fair losses" (e.g. Garchomp4 gets a crit Dragon Claw on turn 1 and KO's Mence, then sweeps my team).
Plus, in a format where you have a total of 12 attacks, one of my attacks was Growl. And it was freaking amazing. So while I could name this team "Team Solomence" in honor of my friend Sol, or "Team Aegimensey" in classic Jumpman fashion (and I do like that name), I prefer Team Growl. It's just the ultimately flavor move, and it cements Chansey as the impenetrable monstrosity it really is, the one very few opponents have any shot of breaking.
I think I've burned the Battle Maison candle a little too brightly for a little too long, and it's unlikely I'll jump back into it for quite some time. As of right now, my intention is to wait until the next game comes out, letting myself get a real breather before I try battle facilities again. I want to play some other video games, and there are a few things in Omega Ruby I should probably take care of (like catching Groudon, lol). That said, I'll definitely be checking in here, and I always look forward to seeing what cool new ideas other people come up with. Good luck, everyone!
EDIT: Added a bit more to the Chansey section.
EDIT2: Copy-edits. I caught Groudon, BTW.
On the way to my friend Solomon's wedding (to another one of my dear friends, which is always awesome), an idea popped into my head. No chain of theorymon, no battles for trial and error: just a collection of three Pokemon that seemed like they could work really well together. And when I tried them out, I was astonished. I usually name the Pokemon on my team after I'm confident they'll be really good or I've just played them enough to get attached to them. As an example, I don't think I named Mega Lopunny and friends until I was over 100 battles in. My Triples team didn't get named until I was over 200 wins in, IIRC. If memory serves, these three got nicknames before I got to 50 (if not, it was immediately afterward), because when I started playing the team, their synergy and raw efficacy was immediately obvious. I knew I was on to something special.
I'm posting a(n unfortunately completed) streak of 2,228 wins in Omega Ruby Super Singles.
Salamence (M) @ Salamencite (Solomence)
Ability: Intimidate
Nature: Jolly
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 12 SpD / 236 Spe
~ Substitute
~ Dragon Dance
~ Roost
~ Return
I came up with this team on the way to my friend Solomon's wedding so I thought it only natural that I name this guy Solomence in his honor.
Mega Salamence does what Dragonite does, but with the right support, it does it WAY better. A Jolly Mega Mence Return hits harder than an Adamant Dragonite Outrage...
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 124-147 (70.8 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 115-136 (65.7 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
...but nothing is immune to it and it doesn't lock you in. That is ridiiiculous. The lack of immunities also frees you up to run Substitute, which makes Sturdy and Focus Sash a lot less of a problem. Of course, more Pokemon resist Flying than Dragon, so while +1 Returns will plow through almost any team without a resist, resists are pretty common. So you kind of want Salamence to get to at least +4 before you attempt to sweep, and I generally go for +6 anyway, since +6 Return has a 31.3% chance to OHKO Rhyperior4.
Regular Mence's Intimidate is a HUGE boost for this team. The ability to put potential Dragon Dancers at -1 before switching to Chansey makes life a lot easier, and allows me to cripple them with Chansey before setting up to +6 with Mence, rather than setting up +2 or something and attempting to sweep. I try to avoid mega evolution as long as possible to preserve the ability to use Intimidate, but I'm not afraid to go Mega and Dragon Dance once or twice if the situation calls for it. Some such opponents include:
Talonflame4: Dangerous with Swords Dance. DD once and kill it. This is one of my least favorite due to the Flame Body risk, but burned Mence can set up on a surprising number of things and KO a lot of other Pokemon.
Drapion4: Again, SD is dangerous. DD twice to guarantee the OHKO.
Musharna4: The AI doesn't seem that good at using Stored Power, but I didn't want to lose to it, so I just DD twice and kill it.
Cresselia1: I would beat this with Aegislash, except that +6 Sneak isn't guaranteed to OHKO. Because of that, I Sub up (in case of Cress2), DD a few times, then take it out.
When I can, I make battles play out such that Mence can get to +6 behind a Sub at full health. It happens a lot, but not every battle; most special attackers with an unresisted attack can stop it from doing so.
The EVs outspeed Haxorus4 in your base form, which is actually wildly unnecessary, since you'll always Mega and DD against it anyway, and it should always DD on turn 1 (if it does KO with a Dragon Claw crit or Dragon Tail you out, you can just go to Chansey and Growl it out). The rest goes into SpDef to avoid Download in base form, but it's probably not necessary at all (Chansey destroys Porygon2/-Z anyway). You can tinker with it, but you definitely want to outspeed base 95s (e.g. Arcanine4) in base form to avoid burns with Substitute. 4 EVs in HP instead of 12, because that gives it 171 HP. 171 HP means 42 HP Subs but 86 HP Roosts, meaning you actually restore health by spamming Sub and Roost. That can come in handy at times.
Mega Salamence does what Dragonite does, but with the right support, it does it WAY better. A Jolly Mega Mence Return hits harder than an Adamant Dragonite Outrage...
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 124-147 (70.8 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 115-136 (65.7 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
...but nothing is immune to it and it doesn't lock you in. That is ridiiiculous. The lack of immunities also frees you up to run Substitute, which makes Sturdy and Focus Sash a lot less of a problem. Of course, more Pokemon resist Flying than Dragon, so while +1 Returns will plow through almost any team without a resist, resists are pretty common. So you kind of want Salamence to get to at least +4 before you attempt to sweep, and I generally go for +6 anyway, since +6 Return has a 31.3% chance to OHKO Rhyperior4.
Regular Mence's Intimidate is a HUGE boost for this team. The ability to put potential Dragon Dancers at -1 before switching to Chansey makes life a lot easier, and allows me to cripple them with Chansey before setting up to +6 with Mence, rather than setting up +2 or something and attempting to sweep. I try to avoid mega evolution as long as possible to preserve the ability to use Intimidate, but I'm not afraid to go Mega and Dragon Dance once or twice if the situation calls for it. Some such opponents include:
Talonflame4: Dangerous with Swords Dance. DD once and kill it. This is one of my least favorite due to the Flame Body risk, but burned Mence can set up on a surprising number of things and KO a lot of other Pokemon.
Drapion4: Again, SD is dangerous. DD twice to guarantee the OHKO.
Musharna4: The AI doesn't seem that good at using Stored Power, but I didn't want to lose to it, so I just DD twice and kill it.
Cresselia1: I would beat this with Aegislash, except that +6 Sneak isn't guaranteed to OHKO. Because of that, I Sub up (in case of Cress2), DD a few times, then take it out.
When I can, I make battles play out such that Mence can get to +6 behind a Sub at full health. It happens a lot, but not every battle; most special attackers with an unresisted attack can stop it from doing so.
The EVs outspeed Haxorus4 in your base form, which is actually wildly unnecessary, since you'll always Mega and DD against it anyway, and it should always DD on turn 1 (if it does KO with a Dragon Claw crit or Dragon Tail you out, you can just go to Chansey and Growl it out). The rest goes into SpDef to avoid Download in base form, but it's probably not necessary at all (Chansey destroys Porygon2/-Z anyway). You can tinker with it, but you definitely want to outspeed base 95s (e.g. Arcanine4) in base form to avoid burns with Substitute. 4 EVs in HP instead of 12, because that gives it 171 HP. 171 HP means 42 HP Subs but 86 HP Roosts, meaning you actually restore health by spamming Sub and Roost. That can come in handy at times.
Aegislash (M) @ Leftovers (Child's Play)
Ability: Stance Change
Nature: Adamant
IVs: 27 Spe
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
~ King's Shield
~ Swords Dance
~ Shadow Sneak
~ Sacred Sword
turskain argued convincingly for a 79 Speed Aegislash, and that's what I'm using. Being able to outspeed and OHKO stuff like Aurorus and Armaldo (when boosted) is nice, simply because switching out and having to set up again is boring. Aegislash switches in to Rock moves and, in most cases, stalls out their PP with back-and-forth switches to Mence, with repeated Intimidates easing the process. When that's super boring (e.g. Rampardos4), I just switch-stall the opponent to -6 and set up Mence. I consider Aegislash the least valuable member of the team, but it's still amazing, and is crucial against several opponents. It's my go-to against Articuno2, both for its expendability and its efficacy. I switch it in on the Ice Beam, then try to SD once, use Sacred Sword, and KO with Shadow Sneak (those two moves will KO ~93% of the time at +2). Aegislash's benefit against Articuno2 is that it can use King's Shield after Arti uses Mind Reader, meaning it can waste a Sheer Cold PP guaranteed. I did have one bad battle against Articuno2 where it KO'd with a non-Mind Reader Sheer Cold on turn 2, but I still managed to win (battle video to come later).
Chansey (F) @ Eviolite (Mean Bean)
Ability: Natural Cure
Nature: Bold
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
~ Softboiled
~ Growl
~ Toxic
~ Seismic Toss
Quietly, Chansey is the most deadly Pokemon on this team. Other than "actually using Mega Mence," the main bit of originality on the team is here, in the move Growl. When I used Chansey in Rotations, I sometimes wish it could just sit there not attacking on a turn rather than wasting one of my moves' PP. Heal Bell seemed mildly useless (and has barely any PP), since Chansey's supposed to be tanking most of the status moves anyway, and Mence is supposed to block the rest with Sub. I did want to mess up Dragon Dance, Swords Dance, and Curse users. I thought using Intimidate switching to nullify Curse Atk boosts seemed super boring, and it seemed downright dangerous against Dragon Dance users, who are unpredictable and therefore hard to beat with Aegislash. I originally wanted to use Charm, but you need to get that move from Happiny, so it's incompatible with S-Toss. Then I stumbled upon Growl, and my eyes lit up. Recognized by players the world over as "one of those worthless early-game moves," Growl hasn't seem the kind of cool applications that the other "worthless early game move," Leer, has. But Growl is a sound-based move with 40 PP, boosted up to 64 with PP Ups. This means Chansey will never, EVER run out of PP (bar bad move choices against a CM/Rest Pressure Suicune). Its ability to augment Chansey's moderate physical bulk by dropping the opponent's Atk is incredible. If you're not a Fighting-type and you don't have Clear Body, Defiant, Choice Band, Dragon Dance, Curse, or Swords Dance, you're not breaking Chansey with physical moves, period. This supplements its near-immunity to special attacks quite nicely. After using it, I wouldn't replace it with Charm even if I could. What it loses against Swords Dancers, it gains in extra PP and the ability to laugh at Feraligatr4. The extra PP is great for stalling out Gengar4, who would otherwise be an annoyance. Ensuring that I can drop Feraligatr4's Atk on the turn it sets up a Sub means I can stall out its Dragon Dance PP and get it to -6 for a free Mence set-up, whereas Gatr could cause a bad chain reaction by blocking Charm, setting up, and getting repeated Waterfall flinches.
It's worth noting that, while stat drops are bad, it's easy to play around them. The primary moves that drop SpDef are Focus Blast, Psychic, Shadow Ball, Energy Ball, and Flash Cannon. Aegislash resists every one of those except Shadow Ball, which Chansey is immune to, making it really easy to switch out Chansey and restore its SpDef (some exceptions are Heatran1 and Aurorus4, who will switch up their moves, meaning Aegislash often isn't a safe switch-in). Crunch drops Def, but opponents who actually use Crunch as their go-to move against Chansey are practically non-existent. Jolteon's Fake Tears is a pain, but you need to be at around -4 for it to approach 50% damage, and it will often use Hyper Beam, giving you a chance to switch out and restore SpDef.
It's worth noting that, while stat drops are bad, it's easy to play around them. The primary moves that drop SpDef are Focus Blast, Psychic, Shadow Ball, Energy Ball, and Flash Cannon. Aegislash resists every one of those except Shadow Ball, which Chansey is immune to, making it really easy to switch out Chansey and restore its SpDef (some exceptions are Heatran1 and Aurorus4, who will switch up their moves, meaning Aegislash often isn't a safe switch-in). Crunch drops Def, but opponents who actually use Crunch as their go-to move against Chansey are practically non-existent. Jolteon's Fake Tears is a pain, but you need to be at around -4 for it to approach 50% damage, and it will often use Hyper Beam, giving you a chance to switch out and restore SpDef.
Basically, the team is designed to be virtually impenetrable to physical attacks, while using Chansey as a catch-all special wall that can stop basically anything lacking Stored Power. It sort of blends the goodstuffs and crippler strategies, since all three of my Pokemon have ways of lowering Atk. I'd say that probably 40-50% of battles result in me setting up Salamence and sweeping, so the other Pokemon put in a LOT of work besides just setting up for Mence. My goal states against the first Pokemon, in order, are:
1) Mence at +4 or higher and full health (or full health minus one Sub) behind a Sub.
2) Fully set-up Aegislash
3) Chansey KOs the opposing lead
4) Mega Mence KOs the opposing lead unboosted (or with one or two boosts)
5) Aegislash KOs the opposing lead unboosted (or at +2 or +4); when it does this, you REALLY want it to be in Blade Forme, rather than having the opponent die to Toxic while you're in Shield.
(Note that list isn't SUPER precise, so I may something make lead plays that slightly contradict that, particularly the ordering of 3, 4, and 5)
Minimizing risk is important, as always, so I try to never have Aegislash or Mence take a potential burn or paralysis. I'm somewhat lax on that for burns on Mence, because he can often get to +6 against an opponent who can burn and sweep anyway with +6 Speed and the equivalent of +2 Atk while behind a Sub. I've become slightly more lax with paralysis on Aegislash against Thundurus1 and Klinklang4, who can be really annoying to Chansey with Toxic and recovery and will often give Aegislash free set-up turns with Protect.
This team has some definite threats, and there are certain Pokemon or strategies I hate seeing. This is in the lead position, though some of them are threatening afterward if they come out against Chansey or a not-fully-setup Aegislash or Salamence.
Swords Dance: You can't stop SD by dropping Atk by 1 every turn, and these things can quickly snowball into a defeat. The usual strategy is "just kill it with Mence," and the ability to do so with one or zero boosts and switch out next turn is a huge advantage of Mence over Dragonite. Garchomp4 is the most dangerous, because it's common. I just try to Return twice with Mega Mence to kill it instantly. In theory, Garchomp should SD turn 1 against Mence (thanks to Intimidate), making this a free KO (or almost free, if Rough Skin). In practice, it often uses Dragon Claw. If it gets a high-damage roll crit against Mence turn 1, the battle's pretty move over, but that hasn't happened to me yet. Terrakion3 could be a problem, but I've never had it use SD on me. I try to be extra sure to set up Mence or Aegislash on trainers who can run Terrakion3.
Defiant: Only mildly problematic. Bisharp is easy to switch-stall out of Sucker Punch and KO with Aegislash, but Braviary can be a real pain if it gets a crit on Aegislash at +1. This replay demonstrates:4C6G-WWWW-WW2E-XCXE
Fortunately, Mega Mence and Chansey are super good, so even with a hard counter to Mega Mence (and annoyance to Chansey) coming out second, I manage to pull out the win.
Wailord4: Ugggggh. The goal is to stall out Blizzard by switching to Aegislash and having it hopefully use Fissure or miss with Hydro Pump on the switch back to Mence, but that doesn't always happen. Sometimes I'll just spam King's Shield with Aegislash if Mence's health gets too low. I have fought this a LOT of times and won, but it's not a Pokemon you want to see, especially if you have Chansey or an unboosted Aegislash out when it appears.
Articuno2: Described in the Aegislash section; you'll notice a common theme of "I hate Pokemon with an OHKO move and a non-OHKO Ice-move." Cryogonal3 also fits the mold.
Trick/Switcheroo: Neither Chansey nor Aegislash want to lose their items, at all. The AI seems to make different choices with different Trick/Switcheroo Pokemon, so I have different strategies for them.
Alakazam4: It will usually Trick, but sometimes Psychics. I Mega Evolve Mence and DD once. If it Tricked, I set up a Sub; if it attacked and I lived, I KO it. If it got a crit and Mence fainted, set up Aegislash.
Metagross4: Except for the losing battle, this has always used Trick against a non-Mega Mence, and will do so repeatedly. I set up to +6 in its face while it spams Trick, Sub and Mega on the same turn, and OHKO with Return.
Reuniclus4: It usually does what Metagross does, but sometimes it will throw Psychic in the mix. I do the same thing I do against Gross, but if it uses Psychic, I'll Mega up and KO it, assuming I'm boosted enough to do so.
Lopunny4: Can't hit Mence, so who cares?
Manectric4: This thing USUALLY uses Thunder, so I always switch to Chansey to stall it out before setting up Mence. I've seen it use Trick in mock battles, but not in real ones. Chansey could stall it out even with the Scarf with judicious switching, though.
Lati@s3: Go to Chansey; it probably won't Trick. If it does, stall out Meteor and set up Aegislash.
Cresselia4: Set up Aegislash. I don't know if I've fought this as a lead.
Delphox2: DD once and KO Delphox, because it sucks and most starter mons can't survive +1 Return anyway.
Floatzel2: Go to Chansey; you won't know it's set 2 until it's too late, but you can set up Mence on Floatzel2 anyway.
Skarmory4: It's not going to KO anything, but Stealth Rock is really annoying for Salamence, and it takes me several turns to take it down with Aegislash/Chansey. DO NOT leave Salamence in against it; if it gets poisoned, you might be screwed.
Honchkrow4: I usually just throw up a Sub on Mence and set up once or twice before attacking (with a Sub up, to avoid Sucker Punch). It does really like using Thunder Wave, but its unpredictability is annoying, and its power + parahax makes me not want to bring in Chansey against it.
Not a lot else comes to mind. The team is rock solid, and really doesn't struggle with much.
Defiant: Only mildly problematic. Bisharp is easy to switch-stall out of Sucker Punch and KO with Aegislash, but Braviary can be a real pain if it gets a crit on Aegislash at +1. This replay demonstrates:4C6G-WWWW-WW2E-XCXE
Fortunately, Mega Mence and Chansey are super good, so even with a hard counter to Mega Mence (and annoyance to Chansey) coming out second, I manage to pull out the win.
Wailord4: Ugggggh. The goal is to stall out Blizzard by switching to Aegislash and having it hopefully use Fissure or miss with Hydro Pump on the switch back to Mence, but that doesn't always happen. Sometimes I'll just spam King's Shield with Aegislash if Mence's health gets too low. I have fought this a LOT of times and won, but it's not a Pokemon you want to see, especially if you have Chansey or an unboosted Aegislash out when it appears.
Articuno2: Described in the Aegislash section; you'll notice a common theme of "I hate Pokemon with an OHKO move and a non-OHKO Ice-move." Cryogonal3 also fits the mold.
Trick/Switcheroo: Neither Chansey nor Aegislash want to lose their items, at all. The AI seems to make different choices with different Trick/Switcheroo Pokemon, so I have different strategies for them.
Alakazam4: It will usually Trick, but sometimes Psychics. I Mega Evolve Mence and DD once. If it Tricked, I set up a Sub; if it attacked and I lived, I KO it. If it got a crit and Mence fainted, set up Aegislash.
Metagross4: Except for the losing battle, this has always used Trick against a non-Mega Mence, and will do so repeatedly. I set up to +6 in its face while it spams Trick, Sub and Mega on the same turn, and OHKO with Return.
Reuniclus4: It usually does what Metagross does, but sometimes it will throw Psychic in the mix. I do the same thing I do against Gross, but if it uses Psychic, I'll Mega up and KO it, assuming I'm boosted enough to do so.
Lopunny4: Can't hit Mence, so who cares?
Manectric4: This thing USUALLY uses Thunder, so I always switch to Chansey to stall it out before setting up Mence. I've seen it use Trick in mock battles, but not in real ones. Chansey could stall it out even with the Scarf with judicious switching, though.
Lati@s3: Go to Chansey; it probably won't Trick. If it does, stall out Meteor and set up Aegislash.
Cresselia4: Set up Aegislash. I don't know if I've fought this as a lead.
Delphox2: DD once and KO Delphox, because it sucks and most starter mons can't survive +1 Return anyway.
Floatzel2: Go to Chansey; you won't know it's set 2 until it's too late, but you can set up Mence on Floatzel2 anyway.
Skarmory4: It's not going to KO anything, but Stealth Rock is really annoying for Salamence, and it takes me several turns to take it down with Aegislash/Chansey. DO NOT leave Salamence in against it; if it gets poisoned, you might be screwed.
Honchkrow4: I usually just throw up a Sub on Mence and set up once or twice before attacking (with a Sub up, to avoid Sucker Punch). It does really like using Thunder Wave, but its unpredictability is annoying, and its power + parahax makes me not want to bring in Chansey against it.
Not a lot else comes to mind. The team is rock solid, and really doesn't struggle with much.
The overwhelming majority of battles end with 3-0 victories. If one of my Pokemon faints, it's generally either something I planned (and the opponent is on their third Pokemon, so I know that I'm about to win) or I'm facing a lead Articuno2. On very rare occasions, I've lost a Pokemon to some kind of surprise (such as Chansey fainting to consecutive crit Focus Blasts from Gardevoir4), but very few Pokemon can beat two of my three Pokemon anyway. The team has a lot of redundancy built in, so I can typically do what I need to do (e.g. Mega Mence can set up on most Rock type attacks even without Aegislash's help, thanks to Roost weakening the Rock move).
I saved a bunch of battle videos, but it's hard to pick out ones that are particularly significant. This one was super annoying, and really demonstrates how awesome Mega Mence's bulk is: HZDG-WWWW-WW2E-XDXJ
The Drapion4 at the end scared the shit out of me, but it avoidance of SD helped.
I actually lost with this team once before this, at battle #748. I have that saved on a different 3DS that I don't have with me right now, but it was basically because Skarmory4 threw down a bunch of hazards and I played like absolute shit against the Gyarados3 that came out next. Once I recognized how awful my play was in that battle, I decided to try again and aim higher, because I knew the team was capable of a lot more. I'm glad I did.
The final loss, #2229: RCEG-WWWW-WW2E-XB87
Vs. Artist Wenge with Porygon-Z4, Rapidash4, Metagross4
Everything proceeds as normal against P-Z4 (Chansey KOs it and escapes unscathed, thanks to Natural Cure removing Tri Attack paralysis).
Rapidash4 comes in, and I aim to KO it with Chansey. In retrospect, I theoretically should have set up Mence against it, but a full-health Mence and Aegislash, and a moderately healthy Chansey has never before failed to win me a battle. Rapidash gets a Flare Blitz crit to do heavy damage to Chansey, but more importantly, it kills itself. Chansey's at about 1/3 health. No worries: Chansey at 1/3 health + Mega Mence + Aegislash beats everything.
Metagross4 comes in. I'm a little worried it will Meteor Mash on the switch, but I go to Mence anyway to exploit the terrible AI. It uses Trick on the switch; Intimidate is blocked by Clear Body. Sweet deal: Mence comes in with no damage. I DD up once, expecting it to keep spamming Trick like it always does. Instead, it uses Meteor Mash and gets an Attack boost. Before I recognized that Metagross4 would spam Trick against Mence, I used to stall out its Mash PP by exploiting its tendency to use Protect to heal up with Roost. I decide to do the same here: I use Roost. Metagross attacks with Meteor Mash, hits, and gets an Attack boost again. I know Mence can take another hit after a Roost, and the goal is to stall out Meteor Mash. I figure that, if it boosts Atk again, I can switch to Aegislash and start switch-stalling its Mash PP until I can set up Mence. It gets a fucking crit Atk boost, KOing Mence. I try to set up a Swords Dance with Aegislash, since maybe a crit can OHKO or it will do something stupid? But +3 EQ OHKOs Aegislash (+2 usually doesn't), and it proceeds to KO Chansey on the next turn.
I didn't get my goal of beating Team Drapula's legendary 2516 run. I was hoping to at least hit 2367, so that this team would have a higher record on the leaderboard until (or if) I decide to post again about Plaguarism. But honestly, I don't feel too bad. Yes, I could have played differently, and I would have won if I had. But switching to Aegislash earlier against Metagross was risky, because the risk of Trick means it has to switch out every time it comes in, reducing Leftovers recovery and making it hard to tank the boosted Meteor Mashes. And theoretically, I could have switched out Chansey and set up Mence against Rapidash. But there's never been any reason to doubt all three of my Pokemon when they're alive and kicking, and I never even thought the AI would stop using the "spam Trick" approach to Metagross, because it has literally NEVER done anything else in the lead position (except throw in a few Protects). Plus, if I switched out Chansey and set up Mence against the second Pokemon every time that I possibly could, this team would be even slower than it already is, with only very occasional payoff. I already play extremely cautiously; I didn't have a lot of motivation to be even more cautious.
I think I'm okay with losing because I've lost a lot of motivation for the Maison in general. Make no mistake: This team is my pride and joy. I consider it my Battle Maison magnum opus, even if it didn't get as far as Team Plaguarism did. As Jumpman16 experienced, there's a unique pride that comes from going this far with a "no gimmicks" team (although I suppose some might consider switch-stalling a gimmick, I see it as pretty standard fare for Maison stall). I feel like I've proven myself in a way that (in my mind) I hadn't before, and that means a lot to me. I think I played well in the battle I lost (not perfectly, but well), and it was a fair loss. This team, unlike Plaguarism, is vulnerable to quite a few "fair losses" (e.g. Garchomp4 gets a crit Dragon Claw on turn 1 and KO's Mence, then sweeps my team).
Plus, in a format where you have a total of 12 attacks, one of my attacks was Growl. And it was freaking amazing. So while I could name this team "Team Solomence" in honor of my friend Sol, or "Team Aegimensey" in classic Jumpman fashion (and I do like that name), I prefer Team Growl. It's just the ultimately flavor move, and it cements Chansey as the impenetrable monstrosity it really is, the one very few opponents have any shot of breaking.
I think I've burned the Battle Maison candle a little too brightly for a little too long, and it's unlikely I'll jump back into it for quite some time. As of right now, my intention is to wait until the next game comes out, letting myself get a real breather before I try battle facilities again. I want to play some other video games, and there are a few things in Omega Ruby I should probably take care of (like catching Groudon, lol). That said, I'll definitely be checking in here, and I always look forward to seeing what cool new ideas other people come up with. Good luck, everyone!
EDIT: Added a bit more to the Chansey section.
EDIT2: Copy-edits. I caught Groudon, BTW.
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Great team! I was always worried about lead Skarmory weakening things too much for a teammate to sweep, but it looks like it can be avoided somewhat. Lead Crobat is also always annoying against these kinds of teams, especially because Taunt keeps Aegislash in Blade form even when it's asleep, but it probably deviates from making the 'right' move often enough for Aegislash to get set up.
Couldn't you have just spammed attacks when it was 3-on-1 against Metagross? A Seismic Toss, a couple Returns, and a Shadow Sneak probably would have finished it off.
The Dutch Plumberjack it looks like Chansey is pretty viable in Singles after all haha.
Couldn't you have just spammed attacks when it was 3-on-1 against Metagross? A Seismic Toss, a couple Returns, and a Shadow Sneak probably would have finished it off.
The Dutch Plumberjack it looks like Chansey is pretty viable in Singles after all haha.
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Man, you guys are incredible here. Another great job VaporeonIce . Love seeing salamence with chansey of all pokemon!
Nice! Growl to decimate non-SD boosters and stack on top of Intimidate is just beautiful.
I thought I was done with the Maison a few months ago; but Tailwind and other stuff popped up because of finishing up AI Multis and I ended up having a slew of new teams to grind. The Maison does seem a little figured out in every mode by now, though I think Rotations and Doubles still have highly viable strategies left to explore.
I thought I was done with the Maison a few months ago; but Tailwind and other stuff popped up because of finishing up AI Multis and I ended up having a slew of new teams to grind. The Maison does seem a little figured out in every mode by now, though I think Rotations and Doubles still have highly viable strategies left to explore.
The problem is that Chansey's health was so low. I guess I should have run a damage calc, because Metagross needed a crit to KO Chansey, so I probably could have taken it out by healing with Softboiled once or twice before going for S-Tosses. But one thing I have to stress is that I thought I absolutely had the battle in the bag. Metagross4 has NEVER attacked a non-mega, non-subbed Salamence. It seems like having Salamence take a Trick on the switch, instead of a Trick when it's already in, somehow changed the AI's move selection, tipping it off that Mence was unTrickable when it's usually oblivious to that.
Yeah, Skarm is hugely irritating. The good news is that two of my three Pokemon have reliable recovery moves, and Aegislash can gradually restore health, which heavily mitigates the risk associated with hazards. Stealth Rock removes repeated Intimidate switches as a viable strategy (and I use them quite regularly otherwise), but often, just a single switch to Salamence on an Earthquake can give the crucial -1 Atk to an opponent with a Rock move, allowing Mence to stall out the Rock move and set up comfortably thanks to Roost removing its Rock weakness. I think my most recent Skarm4 encounter had Nidoqueen4 as the second mon, and I just spammed Roost (fortunately she was Sheer Force, so no Poison risk from Poison Jab) until Dragon Tail dragged in Chansey, allowing me to eventually lower her Atk and set up with Mence quite easily.
But yeah, set up sweepers are super annoying after Skarm4, since Chansey relies on having pretty high health to drop their Attack through possible crits. Waterfall flinches especially suck (see Feraligatr4 and Gyarados3).
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Yeah, I just figured that since Chansey was fodder at that point hitting with one Seismic Toss would've won and even with the worst-case Meteor Mash crit/KO/boost it would've needed another crit to to win (and I suppose after the fact it might have even wasted turns trying to Trick Salamence).
Did you use Toxic on Chansey much? I guess you'd use it to kill non-Gengar Ghosts rather than PP stall them but pretty much everything else is going down faster in 3-4 Seismic Tosses (or predictably Resting and giving your teammates two free set-up turns). That battle would be a great example of why Sub is so kickass on it. Since Chansey can switch into special attackers and do whatever it wants, getting to 100% HP behind a Sub after KOing the lead gives it a ton of leeway when it comes to taking on the physical attackers that come out next; Chansey definitely would've had more HP left for Metagross in that situation, but maybe there were some battles where Toxic was necessary.
A lead Mamoswine that freezes with Ice Fang while you're trying to switch stall it could be pretty bad; did you just let it take some LO recoil and KO it with Return?
I actually really liked Toxic, because it gave Chansey the opportunity to heal itself on the same turn the opponent is KO'd. That way, I make sure she's at full health for the next opponent. Toxic is also important for killing Cofagrigus4, who is a massive pain without Gliscor. I consider Toxic absolutely crucial for Garchomp4 and Terrakion3 who come in against Chansey. If Salamence hasn't gone Mega, both of those can set up a free Swords Dance and outspeed and OHKO Mence and Aegislash. With Toxic, I can start draining their health, then stall them out by switching between Mence and Aegislash. In terms of "did I use it much," yeah, it was my primary method for KOing things with Chansey, because of my desire to keep Chansey at full health.
Early lead Mamoswine freezes were highly annoying (and I believe they happened twice in the run), but I just continued to switch-stall against it. This was basically because of Aegislash's status as the "most expendable team member." Another thing to note about Aegislash is that many of the things it beats would need something like 8 turns to actually win even while he's frozen, giving me fairly good odds of thawing out in time anyway. So I just took the gamble after Mamoswine ran out of EQs and tried to have Aegislash thaw out. I don't think he ever did thaw out in time, but having him at high health meant I was able to pull through anyway. If I KO'd Mamoswine with Mence, I would be concerned about something like Tyrantrum4 coming in while Aegislash is frozen, since if it hit with all five Head Smashes, I would be left with a 1 HP Mega Salamence and a beaten up and frozen Aegislash. That's usually winnable, but it's a risk I don't like. Keeping everyone at high health usually proved valuable, even with Aegislash frozen.
My Super Rotation streak just ended at 133. Got RNGsused by a choice scarfed walrein landing 3 sheer colds in a row. My team consisted of a klefki lead, dragonite sweeper, vaporeon wish passer, and a mega kang sitting on deck. The sets were as following:
Klefki @ Rocky Helmet --> Light Clay
Bold Prankster
252 HP / 156 Def / 100 SpD
Reflect
Light Screen
Toxic
Foul Play
Was my lead pokemon 90% of the time to set up a screen or two. Foul play came in handy against psychics and dancers that the computer loves to abuse. I ran rocky helmet, but if I were to make another run I would opt to the light clay. Toxic was used as a filler to use against the AI stall hax, although it did not get much use. I see it more versatile than thunder wave though. It was useful when I was down to only Klef and my other support, Vaporeon.
Vaporeon @ Leftovers
Calm Water Absorb
204 HP / 248 Def / 56 SpD (Smogon Recommendation)
Scald
Wish
Protect
Yawn --> Ice Beam / Heal Bell
Vaporeon saved the day countless times. Passing wishes is incredible easy in Rotation, and I took full advantage of that. Surprisingly, Klefki was the main recipient due to it carrying the rocky helmet instead of lefties. Replenishing Dragonite's Multi Scale was a huge condition that I used to win some tight matches. Also uninvested scald deals a pretty decent dent in most things. And that burn chance tho. I will be switching yawn to ice beam for better team coverage. Heal bell would have its uses as well, but I want to see ice beam in action.
Dragonite @ Lum Berry
Adamant Multi Scale
4 HP / 252 Att / 252 Spe
Dragon Dance
Outrage
Earthquake
Ice Punch --> Fire Punch
Dragonite was the star of the show. After just one Dance he was able to sweep through most teams. The lum berry was great to shed of all status, and if they didn't do that in time then it cured my own confusion. The combination of Reflect + Multi Scale is absurd. It allowed me to set up on everything, barring ice types. Usually I would get a free turn because the moves aimed at Klef usually do nothing to my dragon. The only issue that dragonite had was that his 2 most powerful moves were vulnerable to immunities. That was when I would spam Scalds with my Vap. I had ice punch as a coverage move to hit grass and the genies hard. But my next go I'm going to give Vap Ice Beam and switch to fire punch.
Kangaskhan @Kangaskhanite
Jolly Scrappy
4 HP / 252 Att / 252 Spe
Fake out
Sucker punch --> Crunch
Return
Power up punch
This is the old standard mega kang. Battle Maison playstyle is different then VGC in how power up punch is much more useful. After just one she can sweep through anything that isn't steel. Fakeout is fakeout, and the mechanics are cool in which you can use it. The first time he gets rotated to, not just coming into play. I will be switching sucker punch for crunch. The AI is known for using gimicks that don't require attacks, then stalling out with moves such as double team. Crunch will be a much more reliable solution to ghosts, and the PP will no longer an issue. Kang rarely gets outsped anyways.
Well that was my team. I made a few adjustments with --> that I will be trying on my next run. I usually lead with Klefki to set up a respective screen or 2. Then dragonite was free to dance away. Next I would scope out the field to see if I could get away with using Outrage. If there were no fairies / steels then I would win instantly. If there were then I would spam earthquakes or even scalds from Vap until I could have them in range.
Klefki @ Rocky Helmet --> Light Clay
Bold Prankster
252 HP / 156 Def / 100 SpD
Reflect
Light Screen
Toxic
Foul Play
Was my lead pokemon 90% of the time to set up a screen or two. Foul play came in handy against psychics and dancers that the computer loves to abuse. I ran rocky helmet, but if I were to make another run I would opt to the light clay. Toxic was used as a filler to use against the AI stall hax, although it did not get much use. I see it more versatile than thunder wave though. It was useful when I was down to only Klef and my other support, Vaporeon.
Vaporeon @ Leftovers
Calm Water Absorb
204 HP / 248 Def / 56 SpD (Smogon Recommendation)
Scald
Wish
Protect
Yawn --> Ice Beam / Heal Bell
Vaporeon saved the day countless times. Passing wishes is incredible easy in Rotation, and I took full advantage of that. Surprisingly, Klefki was the main recipient due to it carrying the rocky helmet instead of lefties. Replenishing Dragonite's Multi Scale was a huge condition that I used to win some tight matches. Also uninvested scald deals a pretty decent dent in most things. And that burn chance tho. I will be switching yawn to ice beam for better team coverage. Heal bell would have its uses as well, but I want to see ice beam in action.
Dragonite @ Lum Berry
Adamant Multi Scale
4 HP / 252 Att / 252 Spe
Dragon Dance
Outrage
Earthquake
Ice Punch --> Fire Punch
Dragonite was the star of the show. After just one Dance he was able to sweep through most teams. The lum berry was great to shed of all status, and if they didn't do that in time then it cured my own confusion. The combination of Reflect + Multi Scale is absurd. It allowed me to set up on everything, barring ice types. Usually I would get a free turn because the moves aimed at Klef usually do nothing to my dragon. The only issue that dragonite had was that his 2 most powerful moves were vulnerable to immunities. That was when I would spam Scalds with my Vap. I had ice punch as a coverage move to hit grass and the genies hard. But my next go I'm going to give Vap Ice Beam and switch to fire punch.
Kangaskhan @Kangaskhanite
Jolly Scrappy
4 HP / 252 Att / 252 Spe
Fake out
Sucker punch --> Crunch
Return
Power up punch
This is the old standard mega kang. Battle Maison playstyle is different then VGC in how power up punch is much more useful. After just one she can sweep through anything that isn't steel. Fakeout is fakeout, and the mechanics are cool in which you can use it. The first time he gets rotated to, not just coming into play. I will be switching sucker punch for crunch. The AI is known for using gimicks that don't require attacks, then stalling out with moves such as double team. Crunch will be a much more reliable solution to ghosts, and the PP will no longer an issue. Kang rarely gets outsped anyways.
Well that was my team. I made a few adjustments with --> that I will be trying on my next run. I usually lead with Klefki to set up a respective screen or 2. Then dragonite was free to dance away. Next I would scope out the field to see if I could get away with using Outrage. If there were no fairies / steels then I would win instantly. If there were then I would spam earthquakes or even scalds from Vap until I could have them in range.
Against Cofagrigus, you'd be able to Sub up with Chansey and spam Growl or whatever until it's out of PP. Against the kind of stuff Chansey switches in on, I can't think of too many special attackers that would be able to 2HKO a Chansey Sub, which would allow you to be at 100% behind a Sub (or just at 100% if you get crit the turn of the last Seismic Toss). Chansey is the last thing you want KOing the lead anyways, so being behind 100% behind a Sub is a pretty acceptable risk that probably even gives you a better shot at coming out on top against something like Garchomp considering Toxic's inaccuracy. The main benefit of Sub is that it allows you to drain the attacking PP from something like Samurott without having to use a lot of Softboileds.
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Sub certainly works well, and I don't want to claim that it wouldn't; in all likelihood, it would probably be just as effective, possibly more so, than Toxic. But I was already dreading Gengar4 PP stall match-ups; I really didn't want to add Cofagrigus to the list of "boring things you need to PP stall to death." Lack of Toxic would also add Zapdos2 to the list, and make Volcarona4 kind of annoying thanks to Leftovers (I don't want to KO with Mence because of the risk of Flame Body burn). The list of Pokemon Chansey switches in on is very, very long, and while I could use it to PP stall a lot of them to death and then set up Mence to +2 or +3, the time commitment was absolutely not worth it to me. If someone DID want to do that, I don't think Softboiled PP would be too much of a problem, since you're already coming out killing things with a +2 or +3 Mega Salamence behind a Sub and are nearly guaranteed to KO the second Pokemon.
Thanks to Growl, I typically used about 7-8 Softboiled PP to stall out Gengar; you could certainly use fewer by switching more frequently between Aegislash and Chansey.
Toxic's inaccuracy gives it a 1% chance to miss twice against Garchomp4 (who can't OHKO with a +2 EQ without a crit) and, if it does, lets me survive it with all three Pokemon alive, which I find preferable to sacrificing Chansey (assuming it uses SD, EQ, EQ, EQ, or replaces the second or third EQ with another SD) to allow Aegislash to snipe Garchomp with Sneak. That's down to a 10% chance against Terrakion3, but I do really try not to have Chansey out when Terrakion3 might come out next.
If you or anyone else wants to try Sub over Toxic, by all means, go for it. It's certainly good. But it's worth acknowledging that any changes made to a team has repercussions, most of which we can predict with enough experience, but some of which we'll still miss. Sometimes the data will tell us which works out better in the long run; in other cases, we just don't have enough people and enough time to test and say which is truly "better." Sub over Toxic is just a different way to play Chansey, and ultimately, a different way to play the whole team.
The one thing that just popped into my head is Chandelure4. I dislike using DD once and KOing Talonflame4 with Mence because of the Flame Body risk, but against Chandelure, you can't even boost OR Sub because of risk of Will-O-Wisp and Infiltrator. I've really appreciated turning Chandelure into kill bait for Chansey; the idea of a potential Flame Body burn + Shadow Ball hit on Mence while I'm forced to Return twice to kill it doesn't sit will with me. But YMMV, and it would probably turn out fine most of the time.
Yeah man, totally didn't see that one coming :]
VaporeonIce if you're still up for writing MegaMence and Chansey yourself, feel free to submit them whenever, I'm still fine with editing them in after upload if it comes down to that.
Attachments
I've been testing a SubSeed Rotations team for the past month or two. It's not as ridiculous as it sounds, but I haven't been able to punch past 100 yet, so I haven't posted anything.
Updated through here. Pretty darn impressive that VaporeonIce now has the two longest singles streaks, both over 2000, with two completely different teams and strategies! Well done indeed!!
Commanda Panda, might you happen to have a proof video code or photo on your streak?
Commanda Panda, might you happen to have a proof video code or photo on your streak?
I think you also could have seen it coming with my Chansey team, which was clearly capable of over 1,000 but just ran into hax earlier the one time I used it. If we're being entirely results-oriented, Glalie should probably have a mention.Yeah man, totally didn't see that one coming :]
VaporeonIce if you're still up for writing MegaMence and Chansey yourself, feel free to submit them whenever, I'm still fine with editing them in after upload if it comes down to that.
Just set a new record for ORAS multi battles with AI Partner at 257 wins.
My loss: QYJW-WWWW-WW2E-7TW7
My Team was:
Greninja @ Focus Sash
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Mat Block
- Dark Pulse
- Grass Knot
- Ice Beam
Salamence @ Salamencite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Double Edge
- Earthquake
- Protect
- Dragon Dance
AI partner was Steven leading with Metagross.
Originally I was using a copy of Whisper0101's team, which explains why Greninja is copy pasted from there. Eventually I got fed up by the team's lack of a mega, and I didn't want the speed drop that comes with Mega Garchomp, which led me to Salamence. I'm going to admit there was a lack of thought here, I originally picked it assuming it got Iron head but it turns out it doesn't, and I already started EV training by the time I realised that. Turns out it didn't matter.
It has Adamant instead of Jolly because I already had an Adamant Bagon with perfect IV's and because I figured that after Mega evolving it would be faster than Garchomp was anyway.
It knows Double Edge because it gets it by level up, I'm not sure if Return would be a better option or not. Either way, this move wrecks. Fairies aren't even a problem because they usually get OHKO'd.
Protect was for things I had to Mega Evolve to Outspeed, but I never figured out what they were. It did become useful for drawing Ice moves towards me while Steven deals damage, though. It also was useful for stalling out Trick Room.
Dragon Dance hardly ever got used unless I thought Steven could deal with all threats on the field. Sometimes he could, but the enemy still got to live because he decided to use Hammer Arm instead of finishing them off with Bullet Punch.
Things to watch out for:
Trick Room is the most consistent threat that causes me problems. It's especially bad when you're dealing with Slowking with Trick Room/Ice Beam. It resists all of Metagross's moves, has enough Sp.Def to survive Dark Pulse and it can take out Salamence in one hit.
Cofagrigus can also cause problems with Trick Room and Destiny Bond, as shown in the first video below.
Choice Scarf Charizard is also a problem, though I don't remember it being a problem before it helped end the streak. It outspeeds Mat Block and can KO Metagross with a crit. It also can burn, which actually took out my Greninja on the loss video after it Charizard was KO'd.
False Starts:
3PVW-WWWW-WW2E-7SVP - Trick Room + Destiny Bond Cofagrigus ruins my day.
JBJW-WWWW-WW2E-8XHL - Me underestimating the Chatelaine's Landorus and making some bad plays with Dark Pulse.
52TG-WWWW-WW2E-8X8P - Goddammit past me, WHY DIDN'T YOU DARK PULSE THAT CHANDELURE TURN 2!?!
Close Calls:
9WTW-WWWW-WW2E-8XE4 - I probably should have used Dark Pulse turn one here. Instead my side got slaughtered and Steven's Aerodactyl got a narrow victory
One token video of me not cocking things up:
FWFG-WWWW-WW2E-83XP - Salamence doesn't make an appearance here. Her righteous deeds are condemned to be forgotten by history.
Also, while I'm posting here here's something I earned a while ago.
My loss: QYJW-WWWW-WW2E-7TW7
My Team was:
Greninja @ Focus Sash
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Mat Block
- Dark Pulse
- Grass Knot
- Ice Beam
Salamence @ Salamencite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Double Edge
- Earthquake
- Protect
- Dragon Dance
AI partner was Steven leading with Metagross.
Originally I was using a copy of Whisper0101's team, which explains why Greninja is copy pasted from there. Eventually I got fed up by the team's lack of a mega, and I didn't want the speed drop that comes with Mega Garchomp, which led me to Salamence. I'm going to admit there was a lack of thought here, I originally picked it assuming it got Iron head but it turns out it doesn't, and I already started EV training by the time I realised that. Turns out it didn't matter.
It has Adamant instead of Jolly because I already had an Adamant Bagon with perfect IV's and because I figured that after Mega evolving it would be faster than Garchomp was anyway.
It knows Double Edge because it gets it by level up, I'm not sure if Return would be a better option or not. Either way, this move wrecks. Fairies aren't even a problem because they usually get OHKO'd.
Protect was for things I had to Mega Evolve to Outspeed, but I never figured out what they were. It did become useful for drawing Ice moves towards me while Steven deals damage, though. It also was useful for stalling out Trick Room.
Dragon Dance hardly ever got used unless I thought Steven could deal with all threats on the field. Sometimes he could, but the enemy still got to live because he decided to use Hammer Arm instead of finishing them off with Bullet Punch.
Things to watch out for:
Trick Room is the most consistent threat that causes me problems. It's especially bad when you're dealing with Slowking with Trick Room/Ice Beam. It resists all of Metagross's moves, has enough Sp.Def to survive Dark Pulse and it can take out Salamence in one hit.
Cofagrigus can also cause problems with Trick Room and Destiny Bond, as shown in the first video below.
Choice Scarf Charizard is also a problem, though I don't remember it being a problem before it helped end the streak. It outspeeds Mat Block and can KO Metagross with a crit. It also can burn, which actually took out my Greninja on the loss video after it Charizard was KO'd.
False Starts:
3PVW-WWWW-WW2E-7SVP - Trick Room + Destiny Bond Cofagrigus ruins my day.
JBJW-WWWW-WW2E-8XHL - Me underestimating the Chatelaine's Landorus and making some bad plays with Dark Pulse.
52TG-WWWW-WW2E-8X8P - Goddammit past me, WHY DIDN'T YOU DARK PULSE THAT CHANDELURE TURN 2!?!
Close Calls:
9WTW-WWWW-WW2E-8XE4 - I probably should have used Dark Pulse turn one here. Instead my side got slaughtered and Steven's Aerodactyl got a narrow victory
One token video of me not cocking things up:
FWFG-WWWW-WW2E-83XP - Salamence doesn't make an appearance here. Her righteous deeds are condemned to be forgotten by history.
Also, while I'm posting here here's something I earned a while ago.
