Resource ORAS NU Viability Rankings

[Machineae]

It was probably ranked for that reason^ + having a source of healing (Giga Drain), strongish priority (SP) and a decent enough mixed move pool. It has things that Pyroar and Mag don't but its speed holds it back. If it hit any decent speed tier it'd give Mag a run for its money but slow fire types suck.

Deserving of a really low rank or none at all IMO.

 

[Cheryl.]

Time to post my thoughts on things:

Cacturne from A- to A: I agree with this, this semi-CM psychic meta is favorable to it, only problem is that most Psychics run Signal Beam.

KFC Jr aka Combusken from B+ to A-: I'm not very sure about this one, Combusken is really cool with Speed Boost and good mixed stats, but sometimes it can"t kill some stuff or outspeed things.

Mesprit from A+ to A: Jack of all trades, master of none. Mesprit is pretty good, but not that great imo.

Electivire from A- to B: Agree, it rose because of magneton, now it's meh.

Little Plug aka Ferroseed from B to B-: haha, you used to plauge all of my teams, now you're bad.

 

[Ares]

Ok there are a couple of things I want to address.

First the rise of Klinklang to S. There were a ton of nominations wanting to raise this mostly to S, a couple of them were A+ / S. After reading back through the thread I felt that the majority of people in this thread wanted Klinklang in S. There were a couple of votes during our discussion of moves that wanted it to A and a couple of them to S. Since there seemed to be an overwhelming majority in this thread asking for it to go to S it went to S. This apparently was a bit controversial as more people spoke up after the fact questioning why it moved up. The thing is that if you don't post disagreeing with the original nomination I won't know your thoughts.

Second, the concern of over inflation. I can see this for some of the rankings, but at the same time just because you haven't seen a Pokemon in a long time does not mean that it has gotten any worse. There are plenty of Pokemon such as Dusknoir and CB Ninjask who are still good even though the majority does not use them. There rank should reflect that, there are other Pokemon who have gotten worse in the meta because of meta defining mons such as Xatu making Ferroseed worse.

Third, as far as making a new thread goes I could see that being a good idea. The rankings could do with a serious work over and like Raseri (tagging you so you see this :^) yah goob I read all the posts in my threads) the current ranks some mons have make people not wanting to move them down due to their current rank.

--

A new thread will go up on Saturday, please continue to discuss the rankings as your opinions will be taken into consideration. Also Deej Dy and co who wanted Klinklang in S please defend your nomination against some of the more recent posts not wanting it in S.

 

[Deej Dy]

I will vigorously defend Klingklang once the new thread is up.

Monty Mole Edit: Alright, I will but I'm busy for the next few days. Ill try though

 

[Ares]

I will vigorously defend Klingklang once the new thread is up.

Do it in this thread or Klinklang might move down to A+. I see reasoning for both A+ and S but if there is no more discussion for keeping it in S than it will most likely move down.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

So I heard a couple of lads say klinklang has no counters since it can run hp grass for quag, it's "only" counter...

First thing I want to make clear is that klinklang is a sweeper, it's not coming in to make significant damage and switch out unless you're in a late game tight situation in which case about any pokemon can do significant damage and klinklang still probably prefers setting up anyway.

Next, I want to make a point clear about wild charge and hp grass which I already made in a past post. Klinklang can run those moves, but really there is absolutely no move worth saccing for hp grass. I think we can all agree, running it is just a stupidly inferior option (unless you're running a weird specs set which is clearly not S rank worthy) and therefore no one should be afraid to switch in a quagsire on klinklang and the "it has no counters" argument is not valid. Next, wild charge is a lot better than hp grass and is viable, but once again, it's not exactly as good as return most of the time. It may help you nab the kill against some water types and arguably opposing klinklang but in all other situations, you just have a weaker coverage move with recoil on the mon that already hates rocky helmet more than any other in the tier. So, while your opponent might have to think twice before switching in his poliwrath on your +1 klinklang, he probably can do so without too much risk and even if he does get his predicts wrong, you just lost probably more than the third of your health killing it and if you didn't, he's probably still alive to get in a vacuum wave.

Now if we put the peices together here's what comes out: Klinklang's best set is the standard GGrind/Return/Sub/Shift Gear one and he's a sweeper that takes at least one turn to set up (no matter how easy it may be to set up, he still needs a turn to do it) therefore he will be looking for OHKO's much more than 2HKO's unless the mon can't break a sub. So, here's a set of potential ways of stopping/revenging klinklang's best set or at least things that are safe to switch in while he shifts his gears.

Quagsire
Gourgeist-Super (+1 252+ Atk Klinklang Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 200+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 146-174 (39.1 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 0- Atk Gourgeist-Super Foul Play vs. 136 HP / 0 Def Klinklang: 126-149 (42.7 - 50.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery)
Prinplup
Rotom and Rotom-S
Rhydon (+1 252+ Atk Klinklang Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 256-304 (72.9 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)
Garbodor
Claydol
Sandslash
Weezing
Poliwrath
Stunfisk
Lanturn
Combusken
Lipeard (risky switch-in but can encore sub/Shift Gear and sucker punch to revenge kill)
Samurott

And that is just to name the ones with higher usage (I skipped stuff like torkoal, hippo, monferno and bulky psychics with hp fire), heck if klingklang hasn't set up twice something as frail as a pyroar after SR can easily stop him...
+1 252+ Atk Klinklang Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Pyroar: 198-234 (63.2 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. In fact, it's simple enough to wall klinklang that you can probably surprise him with gimmicks (read rocky helmet) much more than you can surprise your opponent with klinklang. To those who wish to inform me klinklang can also run a Resttalk/GGrind/Shift Gear set, please notice the the great majority of the previously listed mons don't really care.

Oh did I mention his STAB makes contact TWICE and has 85 acc?

In the end, klinklang is not very hard to prepare for, not very useful early-game (or as long as he's not sweeping), not fully reliable, not hard to predict (unless specs is really a thing I guess) and not OHKO'ing that much at all. It's simply not S tier material as long as your opponent isn't stupid enough to try putting it to sleep with his vileplume and grant you that free turn klinklang needs to get that extra set up ("but hey maybe he was running hp grass over sub").

EDIT: Gurdurr, Torterra

 

[Cheryl.]

Musharna from A+ to S
Musharna is actually Jesus right now. I'm especially loving the Calm Mind + Barrier set, as once you beat the dark types and other checks, Mushy just wrecks. It can take almost any hit, and it has reliable recovery in Moonlight, although the 8 PP can be a problem sometimes. Once he sets up some Calm Minds, Psyshock will start to do a lot of damage, or if you run Stored Power on the Cm Barrier set, that can do work as well. If you decide not to run Barrier, you can run coverage moves like Signal Beam for Dark types and HP Fire for Steels. Really, some of the only problems with Musharna are that it has to take a hit before he sets up or dishes out damage, so you have to heal up a lot. Also, Musharna is probably the best Fighting check in the tier right now (or behind Uxie) and it's only really scared of Knock Off, but he can run Colbur Berry or even Kee Berry over Leftovers if you want. Also, another problem with Musharna is that if it doesn't run Heal Bell, it's vulnerable to Toxic, although Synchronize can deter that a bit. Overall, Musharna is a god right now and should rise imo.

 

[kay]

I'd hold off on bringing this up until the drops happen. As it stand we might be getting a lot of dark types this shift which doesn't boast well for Musharnas CM Barrier set.

And I agree with Sweet Jesus on Klinklang, I think the hyped carried it a little far. One thing I want to point out is that it's also extremely weak before setting up, making it very reliant on actually getting 1-2 boosts off before it can manage a sweep. Overall I think A+ is a better fit then S

 

[Cheryl.]

I'd hold off on bringing this up until the drops happen. As it stand we might be getting a lot of dark types this shift which doesn't boast well for Musharnas CM Barrier set.

And I agree with Sweet Jesus on Klinklang, I think the hyped carried it a little far. One thing I want to point out is that it's also extremely weak before setting up, making it very reliant on actually getting 1-2 boosts off before it can manage a sweep. Overall I think A+ is a better fit then S

True that. Skuntank will destroy every CM Psychic lol

 

[astroboy]

i got a couple noms before this thread closes

Meowstic-M to unranked
I made a nom for this a while back, however it only got lowered a subrank. This thing is complete waste of a slot and has no niche. It's outclassed as a weather setter by Liepard and Uxie, as a screen-setter by Uxie, and a Prankster user of Thunder Wave by Volbeat/Illumise. Fucking Volbeat outclasses this thing. Fucking Volbeat. I expect someone to say, "it combines those roles!1!!!" but it does them all horribly and I've really only seen Meowstic usdon joke teams. It's so bad.

avalugg to c-/d
Table is pretty bad atm. Hazard control is so easy to come by nowadays, due to the viablity of Xatu and Kabutops, leaving Avalugg left in the dust as a spinner. I suppose one of the niches that Avalugg possessed was a form of hazard removal that could effectively check Sneasel, however that thing is long gone. The surge of usage for Steel-types and Sawk aren't doing it any favors either. I don't think Avalugg should be unranked, as its huge defense lets it be a decent check to Kangaskhan, but it's really based off matchup and loses to too many things for me to agree with its placement in C+.

 

[Funbot28]

What are the potential mons to drop this tier shift?

 

[Cheryl.]

What are the potential mons to drop this tier shift?

You should ask this in the simple questions thread, and we don't know until the drops happen, but the potential drops are Skuntank, Shiftry, Hitmonchan.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

What are the potential mons to drop this tier shift?

thatdoesnr have to do with current viability, bur to answer your question gastrodon, hitmonchan, skuntank, and shiftry

 

[Deej Dy]

So I heard a couple of lads say klinklang has no counters since it can run hp grass for quag, it's "only" counter...

First thing I want to make clear is that klinklang is a sweeper, it's not coming in to make significant damage and switch out unless you're in a late game tight situation in which case about any pokemon can do significant damage and klinklang still probably prefers setting up anyway.

Next, I want to make a point clear about wild charge and hp grass which I already made in a past post. Klinklang can run those moves, but really there is absolutely no move worth saccing for hp grass. I think we can all agree, running it is just a stupidly inferior option (unless you're running a weird specs set which is clearly not S rank worthy) and therefore no one should be afraid to switch in a quagsire on klinklang and the "it has no counters" argument is not valid. Next, wild charge is a lot better than hp grass and is viable, but once again, it's not exactly as good as return most of the time. It may help you nab the kill against some water types and arguably opposing klinklang but in all other situations, you just have a weaker coverage move with recoil on the mon that already hates rocky helmet more than any other in the tier. So, while your opponent might have to think twice before switching in his poliwrath on your +1 klinklang, he probably can do so without too much risk and even if he does get his predicts wrong, you just lost probably more than the third of your health killing it and if you didn't, he's probably still alive to get in a vacuum wave.

Now if we put the peices together here's what comes out: Klinklang's best set is the standard GGrind/Return/Sub/Shift Gear one and he's a sweeper that takes at least one turn to set up (no matter how easy it may be to set up, he still needs a turn to do it) therefore he will be looking for OHKO's much more than 2HKO's unless the mon can't break a sub. So, here's a set of potential ways of stopping/revenging klinklang's best set or at least things that are safe to switch in while he shifts his gears.

Quagsire
Gourgeist-Super (+1 252+ Atk Klinklang Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 200+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 146-174 (39.1 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 0- Atk Gourgeist-Super Foul Play vs. 136 HP / 0 Def Klinklang: 126-149 (42.7 - 50.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery)
Prinplup
Rotom and Rotom-S
Rhydon (+1 252+ Atk Klinklang Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 256-304 (72.9 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)
Garbodor
Claydol
Sandslash
Weezing
Poliwrath
Stunfisk
Lanturn
Combusken
Lipeard (risky switch-in but can encore sub/Shift Gear and sucker punch to revenge kill)
Samurott

And that is just to name the ones with higher usage (I skipped stuff like torkoal, monferno and bulky psychics with hp fire), heck if klingklang hasn't set up twice something as frail as a pyroar after SR can easily stop him...
+1 252+ Atk Klinklang Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Pyroar: 198-234 (63.2 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. In fact, it's simple enough to wall klinklang that you can probably surprise him with gimmicks (read rocky helmet) much more than you can surprise your opponent with klinklang. To those who wish to inform me klinklang can also run a Resttalk/GGrind/Shift Gear set, please notice the the great majority of the previously listed mons don't really care.

Oh did I mention his STAB makes contact TWICE and has 85 acc?

In the end, klinklang is not very hard to prepare for, not very useful early-game (or as long as he's not sweeping), not fully reliable, not hard to predict (unless specs is really a thing I guess) and not OHKO'ing that much at all. It's simply not S tier material as long as your opponent isn't stupid enough to try putting it to sleep with his vileplume and grant you that free turn klinklang needs to get that extra set up ("but hey maybe he was running hp grass over sub").

Nice write up an all, but I have to disagree with some points. First off, from now on just assume I'm talking about the standard set. IDC about any HP grass or Wild charge set. Also yes, Klingklang is a sweeper and doesn't have an immediate impact like Archeops or Tauros, but the S rank isn't only reserved for immediate hard hitters, set-up mons are also the backbone of NU teams and likewise Klingklang functions better than both Archeops and Tauros late game.

Now lets get onto the stuff that matters.

Does Klingklang have checks? Yes, as does Archeops and Tauros (Albeit less then both of them)

Many of those checks you listed are either extremely niche or rely on scald burns. Also, often the others are extremely defensive and are hard to fit on offensive teams or are bad at fitting other roles reliably. I really don't want to retype what I did in my earlier post so look at that for my thoughts on its checks. I guess you added Gourg S with Foul Play (Xatu and Uxie Fodder) and defensive Claydol (wut) I guess.

You argue that it's unreliable at times. Uh.... Rock Climb Tauros? Defeatist Chops? you are being way too picky.
Also as you said its a sweeper... it isn't going to go for shift gear turn 1 vs a full healthy Pyroar. More likely than not that Pyroar wlil be around 50% or below when you are ready to sweep.

TLDR: You are arguing as if Klingklang as a bannable mon, it is not, it has flaws just like Archeops and Tauros, but it is S rank.

Edit: Offensive Claydol takes at least 80% from +1 Klang

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Nice write up an all, but I have to disagree with some points. First off, from now on just assume I'm talking about the standard set. IDC about any HP grass or Wild charge set. Also yes, Klingklang is a sweeper and doesn't have an immediate impact like Archeops or Tauros, but the S rank isn't only reserved for immediate hard hitters, set-up mons are also the backbone of NU teams and likewise Klingklang functions better than both Archeops and Tauros late game.

Now lets get onto the stuff that matters.

Does Klingklang have checks? Yes, as does Archeops and Tauros (Albeit less then both of them)

Many of those checks you listed are either extremely niche or rely on scald burns. Also, often the others are extremely defensive and are hard to fit on offensive teams or are bad at fitting other roles reliably. I really don't want to retype what I did in my earlier post so look at that for my thoughts on its checks. I guess you added Gourg S with Foul Play (Xatu and Uxie Fodder) and defensive Claydol (wut) I guess.

You argue that it's unreliable at times. Uh.... Rock Climb Tauros? Defeatist Chops? you are being way too picky.
Also as you said its a sweeper... it isn't going to go for shift gear turn 1 vs a full healthy Pyroar. More likely than not that Pyroar wlil be around 50% or below when you are ready to sweep.

TLDR: You are arguing as if Klingklang as a bannable mon, it is not, it has flaws just like Archeops and Tauros, but it is S rank.

I'm not a fan of how you talk about archeops and tauros and sort of put words into my mouth.

Yes, I said it's unreliable, I didn't say you had to have 100% acc moves to be in S, it's just a factor that adds up to others, it's not as if I was not to mention it when it's the case and I'm arguing to get it lower, I don't think that's being picky.
Yes Tauros and archeops have checks (otherwise they'd be banned) but klinklang has a lot more (not too sure what albeit means cuz my english isn't perfect but if it means you agree well that's that, if not I'm gonna need to see you're tauros checks)
I never said you had to hit hard immediatly to be in S, it was just to lead to the point that klinklang is not doing much bar sweeping and isn't weakening it's counters itself most of the time.

Many of those checks you listed are either extremely niche or rely on scald burns

as in 2? Besides Prinplup doesn't even rely that much on scald burns it's not as if he was 2hko'd and he has torrent to back him up (and 2 scalds is actually more chances of burning than not), I mean would you stay in on a full health prinplup with a +1 klinklang? I wouldn't.
I never talked about defensive claydol, offensive lives +1 and hits back for huge damage. (Besides I forgot torterra so you can add it to the list)

I disagree when you say the checks I suggest are niche and don't fit on offense, they're all good mons, I wouldn't be shy to switch in any of them on a setting up klinklang (bar maybe lanturn because I run him sp.d and he is the other one to rely on scald burn) and it's not as if offense only ran mons with less than 70 defence, with a little imagination, you can fit a whole lot of those on offense.

I don't have the time to read your latest post rn but I promise I will and will reply if needed

EDIT: Read it and I don't feel the need to post again, I think my 2 posts cover the main arguments, I also noticed you added gurdurr to the checks which I forgot.

 

[Ares]

i got a couple noms before this thread closes

Meowstic-M to unranked
I made a nom for this a while back, however it only got lowered a subrank. This thing is complete waste of a slot and has no niche. It's outclassed as a weather setter by Liepard and Uxie, as a screen-setter by Uxie, and a Prankster user of Thunder Wave by Volbeat/Illumise. Fucking Volbeat outclasses this thing. Fucking Volbeat. I expect someone to say, "it combines those roles!1!!!" but it does them all horribly and I've really only seen Meowstic usdon joke teams. It's so bad.

Actually it has a niche as a priority screen setter as well as being decently fast and having better Special Attack than Uxie. Just because no one uses it in this role doesn't mean that it can't fulfill this role to fit the rank of C. I think dropping it a bit more might be warranted, but unranking it altogether maybe not so much.

 

[marilli]

The problem with priority screens is that screens uxie already outspeeds a ton of hard hitters already, so that additional speed difference is often moot.
Even if you're against something that's faster than Uxie so prankster is actually relevant, what does it matter that Meowstic can use priority screens, when non-screened Uxie only takes like slightly more from things than screened Meowstic?

Not to mention, Uxie has memento and U-turn to get out, while Meowstic has to manually switch out and let something else more valuable take damage. The fact that when you see an uxie you usually consider CM, not screens, is another plus over Meowstic which telegraphs what you're doing, but that's just icing on the cake.

Maybe being unranked is bad, but it's far less viable than something like Hippopotas, which actually has a genuine niche and not just some theoretical niche that won't usually matter.

 

[Ares]

Even if you're against something that's faster than Uxie so prankster is actually relevant, what does it matter that Meowstic can use priority screens, when non-screened Uxie only takes like slightly more from things than screened Meowstic?

There are plenty of scenarios late game where your screens have just worn out and your screen setter is low, the opponent has a faster Pokemon in and your only possible win scenario is to get up a screen so you can setup. Meowstic plays the role of being a late game screen setter much better than Uxie. And you can actually use Torment if you're worried about switching as you can get a pseudo switch when the opponent has to go for an unfavorable move. I'm not saying that Meowstic is a better setter than Uxie, just that it has enough of a niche over Uxie to warrant a rank in the C area.

Meowstic also serves as a setup sweeper check / dual screener in one. As you can fit priority Twave onto your team to prevent opposing setup sweepers.

There has actually been a number of times where I've needed mewostic and didn't have it, cause Uxie overall is a better screen setter.

My point being is that you shouldn't discount a Pokemon just because you haven't used it before and you assume its trash.

 

[Cheryl.]

Fletchinder for A+
Fletchinder is a beast right now. While Psychics are really common, Fighting types are still a big part of NU, and Fletchinder's here to beat them down with it's priority Acrobatics. It has Swords Dance to perform a sweep as well. While you may think it's walled by everything thanks to only using Flying STAB most of the time, some of it's proposed checks or counters are crippled by Will-O-Wisp. It can also run Overheat to hit Steel types, or Liechi Berry Natural Gift to hurt Carracosta and Quagsire a lot, while also doing a bit to Regirock. Priority Roost is also nice to somewhat negate the 4x SR damage and keep Fletch alive. SD is not the only set, as well. It has specially defensive and physically defensive sets that help it check Fighting types better. While it has bad bulk without Eviolite and is walled by many things, and it has that crippling SR weakness, Fletchinder is overall a very good pokemon right now and should rise. (Also, it might rise to RU next week, so let's give it the treatment it deserves in it's last few days at NU. R.I.P. Linda. ;_;)

 

[Steakburgers]

Wanna suggest swellow for A+ if possible. Volt-turn cores are kinda huge in nu as i've seen, and one of the best u-turners is Swellow itself. Boasting an incredible 125 speed, Respectable attack with guts is raised to great levels, and solid coverage for the current metagame
I haven't tried its specs set, but for those who think its guts, you can play mindgames with them, and specs boomburst is no joke.
With sneasel in the tier swellow was aiight at best, but right now, I think its shining super bright

 

[Ares]

And we commit this thread to the depths..... Ashes to ashes, dust to dust.

New thread incoming soon