Gen 3 [ADV OU] A very manly RSE team

[Amaranth]

Building Phase

Building Phase

I built this team with the help of a friend starting from Special Gyarados, which I'll talk about in detail later.

Due to the nature of this set, its synergy with physical sweepers is awesome, and especially once the set is revealed special sponges are spectacularly frightening. I decided to double down on win conditions here, and setting my wincons with Scizor and Aerodactyl. They eventually overwhelm most teams, especially with Gyarados sneaking in Hydro Pumps on physical tanks, and even though I initially had Scizor baton pass to Dactyl after enough testing I eventually realized having Scizor be a sweeper himself was the better choice for the team.

This still leaves us open to a lot of popular mons, mainly Calm Minders that set up too much, as well as Electrics. To patch up these weaknesses I use HazePoreon for the CMinders in particular, and a Grass type. We chose Venusaur over a common choice like Celebi mainly because we have no statuses otherwise, and a Sleep move to abuse is always nice to have.

Now we have a Water and a Grass, and as a player who grew up in a meta filled of Fire-Water-Grass cores it was natural for me to think about using a Fire type. We have a lot of Celebi lures in the form of Venusaur and my two Water-types, so Houndoom rounds off the team nicely.

The team works nicely, but has some glaring weaknesses such as Drill Peck Zapdos, and we're missing a Rock type resistor to handle all the various Rock Slides. In order to fix this problem I decided to swap out Scizor for Flygon, which still forces damage - and possibly a toxic - onto the tanks that prevent a lategame Aerodactyl clean, but also handles well offensive Zapdoses with Drill Peck and can switch into Rock Slides all day. I do give up some clean potential against unprepared teams by removing Scizor, but at the same time Flygon fixes many of the team's problems.

@

Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 156 HP / 252 SAtk / 100 Spe
Modest (+SAtk; -Atk) Nature
~ Hydro Pump
~ Fire Blast
~ Ice Beam
~ Thunder

I chose Special Gyarados for my team because he's an amazing mon with the ability to lurekill and take opponents by surprise. He's able to punch holes through a lot of mons and can still make use of his mon slot before even showing his coverage, just through Intimidate and threat of a random HP Flying hitting hard, and using this potential the best possible way is the key to winning even the hardest match ups for the team. Many Special Gyaradoses still run HP Fly to hurt normals, but the team has ways to work around it, and I prefer going all out on Special Attack and have STABs, while the other three moves have the purpose of surprising Steel/Dragon/Water types respectively, as well being x2 coverage on a HUGE part of the metagame. The 100 EVs in speed outspeed 252 Neutral speed Tyranitar by two points, which means it speeds everything that goes for speeding TTar by one. 252+ in Special Attack for maximum deeps, rest is dumped into HP for tankyness and better use of a great base Special Defense and Intimidate.

@

Ability: Levitate
EVs: 188 HP / 184 Atk / 136 Spe
Naughty (+Atk; -SDef) Nature
~ Earthquake
~ Rock Slide
~ Fire Blast
~ Toxic

Flygon, as I mentioned in the building phase, was thrown into the team as a patch up for the team's flaws. He's very useful in scouting - and, just like Gyarados, getting damage on - the big tanks in the opponent's team. Toxic is very useful in crippling a lot of those said tanks, and Fire Blast hits hard unsuspecting Skarmorys. Being forced into Naughty Nature by Fire Blast sucks, because it means we take more damage from Zapdos's HP Grass, however that's a move that is never really optimal to press against any of my pokémon so it's not the hugest deal. Earthquake and Rock Slide bring great physical coverage that allows me to deal good damage to a good portion of the metagame, and that's really the point of Flygon in this team: go in, tank the hits you need to tank, hit back and weaken up the enemy team. Speed EVs outspeed Adamant Heracross, HP EVs dodges 2HKO from Tyranitar's HP Bug should the situation call for it, rest is dumped into Atk for more damage.

@

Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly (+Spe; -SAtk) Nature
~ Earthquake
~ Rock Slide
~ Hidden Power Flying
~ Double-Edge

Aerodactyl is a pretty self explanatory pokémon. You get this guy in, he hits hard. His stupidly huge speed means he can easily clean up teams that don't play around him, and he is my main win condition in this team. Moveset is completely standard here, just use the strongest moves available on a CBand set. A lot less to explain here compared to the other mons.

@

Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 228 Def / 28 SDef
Bold (+Def; -Atk) Nature
~ Wish
~ Protect
~ Surf
~ Haze

Vaporeon is an interesting Water type I like a lot. He's one of the few bulky Waters with reliable recovery and has Water Absorb on top of that, he does his bulky water things (general tankings mostly) and specifically keeps in check cminders such as Suicune and Blissey, and also statuppers in general (Curse anyone?), through Haze. It's a shame not to have other options such as Ice Beam or Toxic, but WishProtect and STAB are really necessary and I need a concrete answer to stat boosters which otherwise just set up and run through my team.

@

Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 SDef
Sassy (+SDef; -Spe) Nature
~ Razor Leaf
~ Sludge Bomb
~ Sleep Powder
~ Leech Seed

Venusaur is in the team because it checks Electric types very well. Raikou - even the cmind set - and Jolteon can't do anything, and Zapdos need to be running Drill Peck to damage him, in which case we have a Flygon ready. Basicly what Venusaur does in this team is handling Water and Electric types, luring Celebi in for Houndoom, but it really fits well together with Vaporeon and Houndoom because he checks the one cminder that Vaporeon doesn't handle - Raikou - and lures in one of the main target of Houndoom's trapping, Celebi. I need double STABs to deliver good hits, I need Leech Seed to actually win against Electric types (I get pressure stalled by rest otherwise), and Sleep Powder is just too strong to leave back. I'm considering a phsyical set with Earthquake as well, but I think it's not worth giving up the pressure on Swampert and the sleep move for SD+EQ.

@

Ability: Early Bird
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe
Timid (+Spe; -Atk) Nature
~ Crunch
~ Fire Blast
~ Pursuit
~ Will-o-Wisp

I decided to give Houndoom a try in this team as he seems to have really great synergy with the rest of the team, being able to pursuit trap many weakened things or psychic types that try to abuse of Venusaur while also pressuring steel types off the field and possibly crippling normal types - especially snorlax through will-o-wisp - that are an annoyance to Gyarados. Moveset is optimized to throw damage around, pursuitrap annoying stuff, and cripple other annoying stuff through WoW. Early Bird in the place of Flash Fire is a little thing I like to have to help with switching in on Gengar's Hypnosis, even though I have to be extra careful about Thunderbolts or Focus Punches. Trapping Gengar is really huge and Early Bird helps with it way more then Flash Fire helps with anything.


​

EtT

Gyarados (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 156 HP / 252 SpA / 100 Spe
Modest Nature
- Fire Blast
- Ice Beam
- Thunder
- Hydro Pump

Flygon @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 188 HP / 184 Atk / 136 Spe
Serious Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Fire Blast
- Toxic

Aerodactyl (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Hidden Power [Flying]
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake
- Double-Edge

Vaporeon (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 228 Def / 28 SpD
Bold Nature
- Protect
- Surf
- Wish
- Haze

Venusaur (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Sleep Powder
- Razor Leaf
- Leech Seed
- Sludge Bomb

Houndoom (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Early Bird
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Pursuit
- Fire Blast
- Will-O-Wisp
- Crunch

​

Any type of feedback is hugely appreciated, thanks in advance to all the raters :) don't be afraid to change major things in the team, anything that makes the team better is appreciated.​

 

[Cowboy Dan]

This team seems to have fairly good answers to most of ADV OU's main threats, the main problem is it doesn't really look like you have a plan for setting up a win condition. You say aero is your main win con, but you don't really support it with this team. Because of this, any well built stall team is going to be really tough for you to beat as you don't have a way to really break down their walls, not to mention calm mind blissey poses a huge threat to your team. Im not really a huge fan of special gyarados, when you think of the things it lures, and the things it can actually take big chunks out of, and the things that wall your attackers, it doesn't really line up to supporting your team. I know gyarados seems to be a focal point of this team from your description but i just don't see it in the team itself so i suggest replacing it with this set:
Metagross @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 128 HP / 188 Atk / 192 SpA
Quiet Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Thunder Punch
- Explosion

Metagross still lures skarmory, and imo does a much better job of that since standard taunt gyara shuts down skarm anyway. Not to mention you can spam meteor mash to make people believe it's a standard set. It also lures swampert, one of aerodactyl's main counters. Its resistances give you a better switch in to opposing aerodactyl which currently seems to give you trouble, and it gives you a proactive switch in to calm mind bliss (meteor mash has a good shot to 2hko even with the more specially offensive build). Most importantly though it gives you explosion, which gives you a way to break down stall teams by destroying a key wall. I don't think this completely solves your team's problems, but I do think it's a step in the right direction.

 

[Amaranth]

Thanks! I'll try it out. Admittedly Gyarados doesn't have too much synergy, it's there just because my friend really wanted to use him, but yeah it can go in favor of something that breaks stall more efficiently since I do have issues beating full stall teams.

 

[McMeghan]

Hello The Idiot Ninja,

How much ADV games have you played in general and with that team in particular? Based on some stuff you said there and there, I have a feeling you're not too experienced in the tier. That is not a bad thing at all, but I am bringing this up because there are some missconceptions I will tackle in this post. Bear with me, it will be long, but I'll try to better your understanding of the tier and your team with it. I'll start with your teambuilding.

1. You said you noticed a weakness to Electrics in your team and decided to add a Venusaur to deal with them. While it fixes the weakness to the Electrics running HP Grass, it doesn't help at all against the one running HP Ice. HP Grass is probably the most common coverage option, but HP Ice is still a move you'll often encounter, especially on Zapdos and Jolteon. I'm mentionning this because it seems it totally went through the radar when you built your team, as HP Ice Zapdos runs though it like butter (and so does Jolteon).
2. "as a player who grew up in a meta filled of Fire-Water-Grass cores it was natural for me to think about using a Fire type". Get rid of that asap; Fire-types are bad for the most part in ADV, and more importantly, they serve almost no defensive purpose. Most of the Fire-types in the tier are (rarely) used for entirely different reasons.

Now, onto the Pokemons individually.

While special Gyarados is appealing in practice, it has a few flaws. The first one is being really weak. I'm talking barely-2KOing-SpDef-Skarmory with Fire blast weak. Milotic walls Thunder like nothing (37-43%) and SpDef Zap comfortably sits on Ice Beam too (28-33%). This brings me to my second point: you do nothing to one of the premier Gyarados switch-in (Zapdos). A lot of Gyarados are paired with Magneton, so a good player won't even send Skarmory on it, which ruins the purpose of your set. The worst part is that once the trick has been revealed, your Gyarados will pretty much be useless because it's just that weak (and slow!).

HP Grass is superior on Venusaur if you don't run HP Fire. It has more power than Razor Leaf and a perfect accuracy. Talking about Venusaur, there is a reason Celebi is more common: it has much superior stats and a much better recovery option. I understand the appeal of a sleep move tho, so I'll let you think about it.

Finally, the team itself.

Like Cowboy Dan said, your team lacks effective ways to reach your goal (which I assume is a sweep with Aerodactyl). Aerodactyl works very well because it's often paired Pokemons that will build pressure for him to sweep later in the game. Examples are Metagross booming on the bulky waters, Skarmory setting up Spikes to passivly weaken Aero's checks, Tyranitar to cancel their leftovers when they're not named Swampert and weaken them as well. Your team tries to achieve this but it doesn't do it well. Special Gyarados has the problems I described earlier, and Flygon is horrendously weak without sand and spikes support (altho it could land a Toxic on a Swampert here).

When it comes to individual threats, the biggest one that stick out to me are the HP Ice Electrics, Regice and Snorlax. The first two are pretty self-explanatory, the last one might not be. Haze Vaporeon is a false good idea to check Snorlax: it can just fish for a paralysis with Body Slam and once that'll happen, you'll be in a tough position. You're now slower and have to recover yourself via Wish AND you might get full-paralysed in the way. In the same vein, Venusaur is a bad check because it can't recover itself outside of leftovers and has to take a hit before using Leech Seed on Snorlax. Most teams can deal with Snorlax via sheer pressure, but it is not case here: you don't have Spikes, you don't have Sandstorm to cancel its leftovers (and that's huge when it comes to Curselax) and most importantly: you have Snorlax set-up baits (Vaporeon, Gyarados and Flygon/Houndoom to an extent).

The biggest problem of your team is dealing with some threats when they have their "basic" support. What's preventing Aerodactyl from spamming Double-Edge? Your Vaporeon, a Spikes-weak Pokemon that is not sand immune. Guess what's Aero's common partners? Skarmory and Tyranitar. Talking about Skarmory, it has a field day on your Venusaur by the way (and your Flygon/Vaporeon, sort of). A simple Celebi will make your live hell if it's paired with a Dugtrio. Blissey + anything that checks Aero will stop your offensive process cold. I could go on and on about this kind of "combination weakness".

How to fix your team? Well, there would be a lot of changes to make it work. Maybe it'd be better to start over from the basis. You want a team that sweeps with Aero? Consider the following:

• Spikes; they will passively weaken most Aerodactyl checks, aka the Bulky Waters. The most notable Spikers are Forretress, Skarmory and Cloyster.
• Sand; sand alone is very helpful to cancel the leftovers of many Pokemon and to put them in Aero's 2 or 3KO range.
• A Physical Wall lure (that works); pretty simple concept. CDan's Metagross works here, so do stuff like MixMence or MixTar. You don't need to outright KO your target by the way, just weaken them enough to prevent them from checking Aero.

Note that you don't need to use Spikes AND Sand AND Physical lures. Those are just tracks for you to consider when you'll make a second draft of an Aerodactyl team.

 

[boudouche]

 

[Amaranth]

Thanks for the very insightful post, McMeghan. Indeed, I started playing ADV recently (<1 month), but had decent results in an important Italian ADV tournament - beating players such as During Summer and Moonlight, also thanks to one of your teams I found and used - and I have the help of Bomber92 which is a good friend and is hands down the best italian ADV player (and would've played in wcop if it wasn't for his life being very busy in that period). So yeah, I don't understand the metagame too well yet, but I'm not a complete noob and have a lot of good players to practice with.

Now onto the rate. Everything you said makes a lot of sense, and even though I don't like the idea of having to rebuild the team from scratch it might be the best option here. Since that is the case you can close this thread if you want to. Your post really helped me understand some mechanics in ADV that I never really noticed in game, but are actually very important. I'll try to get some more practice with teambuilding in gen 3, and perhaps post another team later on.