Sign ups for Doubles Grand Slam don't even start for a month, you'll have a concrete answer on that soon enough
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
NP: Doubles OU Stage 2 - Monster | Mence is banned | Hoopa not Banned
- Thread starter Arcticblast
- Start date
- Status
Just swap your AMoonguss for Togekiss, give Jirachi 286 Speed, make your Aegislash SD + Shadow Sneak, give Mega Gengar HP Bug, and don't use CM Cress/Perish Trap and you'll be TOTALLY FINE.
Re Hoopa-unbound:
Over the course of the last few hours the council had been in a vote to determine the future of Hoopa-u in the DoublesOU tier. If Hoopa-u received 6 out of a possible 10 votes it would be banned from standard play and moved to the DoublesOU ban list known as Doubles Ubers. The vote ended in a 5-4 vote with 1 council member's vote not mattering. As of now, Hoopa-u will remain NOT BANNED from the tier and will be legal in all future tournaments including the Doubles Open.
Finally's vote at this point doesn't matter since it would end in a 5-5 draw, meaning it wouldn't be banned regardless.
Over the course of the last few hours the council had been in a vote to determine the future of Hoopa-u in the DoublesOU tier. If Hoopa-u received 6 out of a possible 10 votes it would be banned from standard play and moved to the DoublesOU ban list known as Doubles Ubers. The vote ended in a 5-4 vote with 1 council member's vote not mattering. As of now, Hoopa-u will remain NOT BANNED from the tier and will be legal in all future tournaments including the Doubles Open.
Mizuhime
Arcticblast
Shaian
Memoric
Arcticblast
Shaian
Memoric
Stratos
Laga
Bughouse
Kyle Cole
Totem
Laga
Bughouse
Kyle Cole
Totem
Finally's vote at this point doesn't matter since it would end in a 5-5 draw, meaning it wouldn't be banned regardless.
YAY
/o/
\o\
|o/
rip trains tho
/o/
\o\
|o/
rip trains tho
:[
don't worry, CM Cress is still viable :^)
[14:07] @Mizuhime:it's skymin
Alright moving onto the next suspect
Skymin doesn't need a ban
Alright so first of all its frail as fuck and doesn't hit hard. Skymin is probably better defined as a support sweeper (does that even make sense) rather than a sweeper outright. True, it does decent damage in super-effective hits but where it really shines is in the flinches and the spdef drops it provides, along with its unique coverage. Currently, skymin fills a role that no other mon even competes for. Removing it from the meta would take away options from many offensive teams, and also remove a strong counter to many already tier-1 mons, such as Rotom-Wash, Keldeo, and Diancie.
What are Skymin's weaknesses?
Besides having bad matchups against many mons (ie thundurus, togekiss, jirachi, kang, landot, etc. etc), skymin is also extremely vulnerable to fake out and speed control. In many cases where it's used, people will repeatedly risk 57/43 rolls to all go in their favor, which turns out not to be the case a lot of the time.
It's also weak to scarf users and priority, such as sucker punch or fake out or ice shard.
edit: also it makes sand/hail stronger so there's that
Alright moving onto the next suspect
Skymin doesn't need a ban
Alright so first of all its frail as fuck and doesn't hit hard. Skymin is probably better defined as a support sweeper (does that even make sense) rather than a sweeper outright. True, it does decent damage in super-effective hits but where it really shines is in the flinches and the spdef drops it provides, along with its unique coverage. Currently, skymin fills a role that no other mon even competes for. Removing it from the meta would take away options from many offensive teams, and also remove a strong counter to many already tier-1 mons, such as Rotom-Wash, Keldeo, and Diancie.
What are Skymin's weaknesses?
Besides having bad matchups against many mons (ie thundurus, togekiss, jirachi, kang, landot, etc. etc), skymin is also extremely vulnerable to fake out and speed control. In many cases where it's used, people will repeatedly risk 57/43 rolls to all go in their favor, which turns out not to be the case a lot of the time.
It's also weak to scarf users and priority, such as sucker punch or fake out or ice shard.
edit: also it makes sand/hail stronger so there's that
idk Mizu said it was
Stratos
Banned deucer.
So why did we treat hoopa-u as though it had started in DOU? Fuck
mfw it already happened
Last edited:
Sand has to carry Megatar, last I checked it lost to both Keldeo and Skymin unless it gets to like +2, and Excadrill is good for beating Skymin at least, Keldeo gives it too many issues.
Hail usually only works in tr (tfw Skymin Seed Flare+Keldeo Hydro=kill on almost every setter as seen here: 252 SpA Shaymin-S Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cresselia: 111-132 (25 - 29.7%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO; 252 SpA Life Orb Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. -2 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cresselia: 278-329 (62.6 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO; so close but nobody runs that much anyway lol) and Abomasnow out of tr surpisingly enough loses to both Keldeo and Skymin.
Also it doesn't make them stronger, all Sand/Hail does is break Skymin's sash.
Maybe the best thing Hail has is TR+Fake Out but you probably have your own Fake Out or something anyway.
Last edited:
Mega TTar actually survives a LO Seed Flare and beats Skymin at +1. One of Mega TTar / sand's best partner is also Talonflame / Togekiss, which can handle Keldeo
Abomasnow out of TR still checks Shaymin-S with Ice Shard. You illustrate a 2 vs 1 scenario, when in fact Abomasnow will have a partner to complement its weaknesses, such as Azumarill or Raikou.
You have a stronger case for Cresselia, but again you ignore the fact that Cresselia has a partner, too. Maybe it's a Mega Gengar / Mega Diancie / Mega Charizard Y.
I'm not picking sides, but j/s that real battle scenarios are much more complicated and difficult for the Skymin user than you make it out to be.
Abomasnow out of TR still checks Shaymin-S with Ice Shard. You illustrate a 2 vs 1 scenario, when in fact Abomasnow will have a partner to complement its weaknesses, such as Azumarill or Raikou.
You have a stronger case for Cresselia, but again you ignore the fact that Cresselia has a partner, too. Maybe it's a Mega Gengar / Mega Diancie / Mega Charizard Y.
I'm not picking sides, but j/s that real battle scenarios are much more complicated and difficult for the Skymin user than you make it out to be.
Not remembering the last time you saw a perfectly viable way to beat a Pokemon is not a good case as to why that mon should be banned/suspected. If you find you're losing to skymin all of the time, maybe you should try Togekiss or Jirachi.
Also can we please not do the "WHAT ONE POKEMON 100% COUNTERS ALL SKYMIN + ALL POSSIBLE PARTNERS" like we did with mega mence.
EDIT: Sand has literally 0 problems with Shaymin-Sky
Last edited:
I was merely explaining why Sand/Hail weren't the greatest, though my message was a bit flawed in explaining it. Also, this is doubles, and unless you can build a team that can hard stop Pokemon+Partner then I don't think you can say it's balanced.
Mega Mence+Jirachi is very hard to beat, in all honesty I don't see any definite one or two mons that A) hard stop it and B) switch in easily to it. The closest things to fulfill the two requirements, without any favorable conditions such as Trick Room set up, are Heatran and Cresselia, as Heatran switches in to a resisted hit and 2HKOs Jirachi while hitting Mega Mence sub with 2 Heat Waves while Cresselia does almost 75% to Mega Mence.
If Trick Room is up, Mawile, Gardevoir, and Aurorus would beat it, but so what? Mega Rayquaza loses to Trick Room just as easily because of those mons. Maybe we should unban that with Mence.
While Skymin+Keldeo isn't as difficult to face, there are quite a few things that they so easily trouble in the current meta game, and while Skymin+Keldeo is out on the field you know something is dying soon.
Skymin+Kangaskhan makes Trick Room almost absolutely impossible, and Tailwind setters find it so hard to do much. You need the bulky/weaker Tailwind and Trick Room setters to make them usable against those two. Surprisingly, Cresselia and Suicune are actually piss weak!
Skymin+Kyube? Anything that Kyube doesn't necessarily beat Skymin assists in absolutely ruining.
Skymin+Charizard... Charizard obliterates half the meta game and Skymin makes the only wall complete wall Heatran with its Seed Flares and Air Slashes, and it has no difficulty getting them off.
Skymin+Special Attacker is just generally going to be something that a team is not going to like facing at all. Skymin+Pokemon is just generally too difficult for the meta game to "easily check/counter".
I meant thundy was the only mon that he had listed that really checked them, but other than that I do agree with you.
How are jirachi and togekiss not checks? Not to mention all the other mons I didn't mention like talonflame, sylveon, etc.
I am a little confused about this. you say you wanted to start it in ubers and drop it which I agree with but then you voted not ban.
Stratos
Banned deucer.
i want all pokemon above 600 bst (except slaking/gigas/any others of that mold which may come along) to start in ubers with potential drop tests, and all pokemon with 600 or lower bst to start in ou with potential ban tests. This is just to establish a consistent method of handling pokemon introductions and is independent of my opinion that hoopa-u wasn't remotely broken (though i would have liked more than a week to play with it before the vote @_@)
hashtag, in simpler terms, basically what stratos wanted was for it to be 6/10 to unban, as opposed to 6/10 to ban which was done here because it was treated as an doubles ou mon instead of an uber during its introduction.
what he voted on was irrelevant to the fact that he just wanted a consistent process.
The real skymin counterplay tho
But yeah we should probably address how much skymin hurts trick room teams..
A lot of the time a solid lead vs trick room is skymin+mon that can threaten fake out user. (aka skymin keld)
Quick question to those more experienced with the suspect process: what's the basis for a ban? Is "unfun play" a legitimate reason or does it have to be based solely on balance?
Personally I think using "makes the metagame not fun to play" is a legitimate argument as long as that is how the majority of the community feels. Usually when someone uses "x Pokemon makes the metagame stale/not fun to play" as an argument, they would've asked around the community how they feel about x mon because if you just use how you feel, that would be the same as using "I never had problems with x mon so it shouldn't be banned" as an argument IMO.
- Status