Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[Alfalfa]

I personally support keeping M-Latios ranked, but you neglect to mention in your post that if you happen to build a Latios team without a mega there is literally no reason to not use Mega Latios unless you are running Dual Screens as, if you look at the two in a vaccum (i.e. looking at the pokemon themselves without worrying about the presence of other megas), Mega Latios is better than LO Latios due to the fact that the small decrease in special power (this is very rarely noticeable anyway tbh) is completely outweighed by the lack of LO recoil, the "resistance" to Knock Off, the noticable increase in bulk and (if applicable) lacking need of investment for EQ due to the naturally higher power than LO Latios' EQ. The points as to why it is so low are correct in your post tho :)

252 SpA Mega Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 204-242 (75.2 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 229-270 (84.5 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Mega Latios Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 218-258 (67.4 - 79.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 244-289 (75.5 - 89.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Idk, that is a pretty large difference in power.

Considering that there are a wide array of Megas to choose from and how much a team benefits from having many of the top Mega threats in the OU metagame, the amount of teams that do not require any other Mega Pokemon is limited to a very, very small fraction of teams. More power on Earthquake is indeed nice to have, but almost all teams can find a Mega Pokemon that they can benefit from before they resort to Mega Latios.

 

[Martin]

252 SpA Mega Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 204-242 (75.2 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 229-270 (84.5 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Mega Latios Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 218-258 (67.4 - 79.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 244-289 (75.5 - 89.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Idk, that is a pretty large difference in power.

Considering that there are a wide array of Megas to choose from and how much a team benefits from having many of the top Mega threats in the OU metagame, the amount of teams that do not require any other Mega Pokemon is limited to a very, very small fraction of teams. More power on Earthquake is indeed nice to have, but almost all teams can find a Mega Pokemon that they can benefit from before they resort to Mega Latios.

I'm saying it should be ranked. I'm not saying it should be high tho. imo it should be D due to just how niche the teams it fits on are, and I was just comparing them in a vacuum (i.e. assuming no one-mega mechanics).

Anyway, imo calcs are a poor demonstration of the increase in power as it doesn't really show the stat difference (although it does show difference in damage v.s. key targets - but iirc Surf isn't very good on Defog mega as EQ is better in, like, 99% of scenarios due to the attack boost (iirc its big enough to not need Naive to OHKO SpD Tran after rocks, although it is still needed if you don't want to factor in rocks)). Going off of numbers alone, Mega Latios' power is 90.1075268817% that of LO Latios' (stat after LO boost rounded down due to pokemon mechanics). This isn't a big difference at all, as it is an approx. 10% decrease in power over LO Latios (not damage - raw power) A better thing to calc for an estimate of power difference would be Draco v.s. Mew:

Anyway, in like 95% of scenarios you will be using base anyway due to mega mechanics (m-latios would probably see actual use if that wasn't there) and I was just comparing them in a vacuum - not defending it for C (imo it should be D). Not going to argue this anymore as I was just going off of raw numbers for it.

Sableye has done that sourtta thing for me as well. He recovers in between. Move set: wisp, taunt, recover, and knock off. Not to mention sableye has much better typing only having 1 weakness only. So sableye can do basically what bannete can do. Bannete can do it a little better but still not having recovery isn't good. A Draco meteor from latios would probably end what bannete and sableye can do right then.
Not to mention that every body will expect u to be a mega sableye so they won't try and set up anything on u and u always have taunt as well. Sableye can also hold leftovers while bannete has to hold a mega stone and everyone knows if u bring a bannete its mega. And it still takes up ur mega slot.

iirc lefties sableye is trash. banette does the status element of what it does better in, like, 90% of scenarios due to its ability to actually do something to special attackers (it can afford to run T-Wave if it wants to (unlike Sableye) and even if it doesn't it can still just completely f*ck them over with D-Bond) and surprise factor with Sableye means jack sh*t as a: the times that it would be useful are when something which is obviously going to be mega is used over it (e.g. Altaria or Zard) and b: its answers are literally identical to those of mega sableye, except that you can add about half of the things which are OU by usage and struggle with its mega's extra bulk to that list as well. While Sableye only has one weakness, that weakness is to fairy (i.e. the replacement to dragon in the role of "somewhat borked type" if it weren't for the lacking range of choices - of which, like, approaching 1/3 of the fully evolved fairies lie in a- or higher iirc) and its resistances are lacking due to each type also negating most of each others' resistances (iirc it only resists poison, which is statistically the worst offensive type, and its immunities barring Psychic are identical to those of Banette) while Banette resists U-Turn and Megahorn while its Dark-type weakness is somewhat detracted from by its "neutrality" to Knock Off. Also, you seem to be neglecting that mega banette has a monstrous base 165 attack stat, which means that it isn't dead weight if none of its status options are useful (seriously, this thing's Shadow Claw destroys souls). Seriously, you are underselling Mega Banette mostly on the premise that it doesn't have Recover when its ultimate aim is to take out a major threat with Destiny Bond, which Recover would be counterproductive to.

 

[Vinc608]

I agree with Latios-Mega dropping to D. A better EQ is very very situational, and I think the only niche of Mega-Latios is the Offensive CM. Okay, it has better bulk than vanilla Latios. But in a lot of cases (I think like 90%), it is better to find another Mega, and switch CM Mega-Latios to CM Latios. The opportunity cost is just too huge, and this puts Mega-Latios to D.

 

[AM]

I dont agree with volcarona dropping at all, the whole "these things in a- are much more consistent argument" is super suggestive when downplaying it.

Regular sableye is pretty doodoo but gamer boy youre trying to make it seem like its on the level of a caterpie by the way you just assume its a totally garbage pokemon for something that can still be used well by a compotent player.

The sableye v mega banette discussion is flawed though. There is so many differences outside of ghost and prankster that trying to say one outclasses the other entirely is in the end pointless because they fall under the opposite end of both roles and what archtypes they are used on.

 

[Ari The OU Master]

I'm saying it should be ranked. I'm not saying it should be high tho. imo it should be D due to just how niche the teams it fits on are, and I was just comparing them in a vacuum (i.e. assuming no one-mega mechanics).

Anyway, imo calcs are a poor demonstration of the increase in power as it doesn't really show the stat difference (although it does show difference in damage v.s. key targets - but iirc Surf isn't very good on Defog mega as EQ is better in, like, 99% of scenarios due to the attack boost (iirc its big enough to not need Naive to OHKO SpD Tran after rocks, although it is still needed if you don't want to factor in rocks)). Going off of numbers alone, Mega Latios' power is 90.1075268817% that of LO Latios' (stat after LO boost rounded down due to pokemon mechanics). This isn't a big difference at all, as it is an approx. 10% decrease in power over LO Latios (not damage - raw power) A better thing to calc for an estimate of power difference would be Draco v.s. Mew:

Anyway, in like 95% of scenarios you will be using base anyway due to mega mechanics (m-latios would probably see actual use if that wasn't there) and I was just comparing them in a vacuum - not defending it for C (imo it should be D). Not going to argue this anymore as I was just going off of raw numbers for it.

iirc lefties sableye is trash. banette does the status element of what it does better in, like, 90% of scenarios due to its ability to actually do something to special attackers (it can afford to run T-Wave if it wants to (unlike Sableye) and even if it doesn't it can still just completely f*ck them over with D-Bond) and surprise factor with Sableye means jack sh*t as a: the times that it would be useful are when something which is obviously going to be mega is used over it (e.g. Altaria or Zard) and b: its answers are literally identical to those of mega sableye, except that you can add about half of the things which are OU by usage and struggle with its mega's extra bulk to that list as well. While Sableye only has one weakness, that weakness is to fairy (i.e. the replacement to dragon in the role of "somewhat borked type" if it weren't for the lacking range of choices - of which, like, approaching 1/3 of the fully evolved fairies lie in a- or higher iirc) and its resistances are lacking due to each type also negating most of each others' resistances (iirc it only resists poison, which is statistically the worst offensive type, and its immunities barring Psychic are identical to those of Banette) while Banette resists U-Turn and Megahorn while its Dark-type weakness is somewhat detracted from by its "neutrality" to Knock Off. Also, you seem to be neglecting that mega banette has a monstrous base 165 attack stat, which means that it isn't dead weight if none of its status options are useful (seriously, this thing's Shadow Claw destroys souls). Seriously, you are underselling Mega Banette mostly on the premise that it doesn't have Recover when its ultimate aim is to take out a major threat with Destiny Bond, which Recover would be counterproductive to.

Ur missing the point. It's not worth ur mega slot. What ur saying is it basically used to trade of. Sableye can do what mega bannete can do accept destiny bond. bannete is slow and can be KOed by super effective hits and knock off is a very common move.
I don't have time to continue right this moment but I will when I have a chance

 

[Martin]

Regular sableye is pretty doodoo but gamer boy youre trying to make it seem like its on the level of a caterpie by the way you just assume its a totally garbage pokemon for something that can still be used well by a compotent player.

I didn't mean for it to come across like that. Sorry. I was just kinda arguing against him due to him comparing them and what I said came out wrong. I do think Sab should be ranked tho, I was just trying to say that it is pretty ass (I said 90% of scenarios to try and avoid it coming out that way :/)

Anyway, on the topic of volc, I really don't think it should drop. It is just so deadly in so many scenarios, being one of the most consistent special setup sweepers that isn't some kind of CM stallbreaker. It kinda steamrolls most teams once its at +1 or +2 and its easier than ever to keep hazards off of the field, with two top-tier M-Bouncers, Defog being so good and Starmie acting as a stellar spinner. Srs, Volc+M-Sab teams are dope and they take a dump on balance iirc. Fire+Bug+Grass coverage is SO difficult to switch in on before you even consider the possibility of a boost. Its also rather versatile if you do want to break away from the mold, with bulkier approaches such as bulky QD or even obliviate's bulky pivot set as a viable option. Volc is honestly one of the most fun 'mons and is so powerful under so many circumstances that it is kinda difficult to see it on the same rank as Mamoswine tbh.

 

[AM]

So I dropped M-Metagross to A+ after a small discussion with ranking team and throughout the week gauging the shifts in the tier, seeing what builders use as their main steel of choice, its effectiveness with a variety of different move options, and granted it's a shaky topic and can be subjected to change but realistically I feel confident with this move. I think its limited usage in WCOP was flawed btw, so this wasn't necessarily a final determining factor in this change, more so the discussion I had with people and the factors in the sentence prior to this one.

On to the next topic...

[7/28/15, 8:40:26 PM] AM: also people are complaining that
[7/28/15, 8:40:31 PM] AM: A+ is bloated
[7/28/15, 8:40:41 PM] AM: granted most of their suggestions for drops are really shitty
[7/28/15, 8:40:48 PM] AM: so if anybody cares there's that
[7/28/15, 8:40:54 PM] AM: hint, I don't
[7/28/15, 8:40:59 PM] Henry: most of their drops are shitty because a+ is fine the way it is for oras ou

I'm putting this here cause the thread seems to be in a fixated state where everyone feels like stuff has to change for some loose criteria in that the ranks need to have a certain amount of mons in each one or for highly subjective aspects when using a comparing and contrast argument, such a the Volcarona drop nom I saw earlier today. Henry's point is perfectly valid btw, in regards to complaints of being bloated which once again team agrees that's the nature of ORAS and that isn't even remotely a concern we're worried about. Discussions still free but wanted to put that out there as I think a lot of the arguments for drops in A+ haven't been really good, to the point where most of them couldn't be used as a grounds to justify a drop.

 

[Vert]

has anyone here considered moving mzor up to s? now that metagross dropped, i think the definition of offensive steel has changed. it is such a great glue to offensive and balance teams and offers so much both offensive an defensively. its unpredictability also adds to the mix - sd 3 attacks, sd u-turn, sd knock off, 3 attacks roost, and even a support set with defog. i mean it is checked by things by heatran, keldeo, and manaphy, but mzor can weaken these over time by using its coverage or pivot off them with u-turn. its a great 'mon, idk if there is much else to say. i think it is ready for s because it is honestly at its peak at the current state of this metagame

 

[bludz]

Mega Scizor -> S rank?

I know AM just said we don't need to clear out A+ and obviously there's no reason to try to fill S since there's no need to regulate size, but I still think this is something worth considering.

Mega Scizor in my opinion is the best pokemon in A+ rank right now. There are others that are also very good but I think the main difference here is that Scizor shares a level of versatility similar to Clefable or Mega Altaria. Its movepool isn't quite as good as either of theirs, but it is versatile in the sense that it is both a very large offensive and defensive presence. It has a few very viable sets and its EVs are pretty customizable for the most part. Overall it has the typing, stats, and utility that can make a mon S rank. I think Scizor has been getting better for a long time thanks to the rise of fairy types combined its ability to handle Metagross and other tough to deal with pokemon like Weavile and Bisharp. It's a big threat to take down defensively with only one weakness and better bulk than Skarmory (if you include the special side), while having the ability to set up Swords Dance and clean as one of the strongest priority users in the game.

 

[TPP]

I think someone might've already said this, but I wanna nominate Hippowdon for A+. Hippo has proved to be excellent in OU as a strong defensive mon, being able to check Zard X, Talonflame, Mega Manectric, Raikou (non specs), Excadrill, Tyranitar, Bisharp, Mega Metagross (non grass knot), Lando-T, and so much more. It's a really good user of Stealth Rock, and it's as slappable as Tank Chomp for the most part. One advantage it has over Garchomp is recovery in the form of Slack Off, something that really helps keep Hippo alive to constantly check threats over the course of a battle. If anyone else has anything I missed (whether supporting Hippo or going against it), please let me know or just comment below.

 

[AM]

I don't feel like my nomination for dropping Volcarona was subjective at all, or at least I didn't intend it to come off that way. I probably should haven't used the other A- pokemon as a stepping stone in my argument, and see how that weakened my suggestion, however, I still stand by the drop. I made sure to read every ranking before nominations, and think that the B rank description fits Volcarona much more comfortably than A rank: "B Rank:Reserved for Pokemon that hold a moderately high amount of viability. Their positive traits are generally on par with their negative traits."

I've used Volcarona several times in the past recently, and just don't think it fits the A rank right now. There are just so many pokemon in OU that naturally check it. I've been swept and swept by a Volc before and every time it's been because of misplays by either myself or my opponent. I just don't think it fits in.

Define natural check and then define it in the way cores associated with Volcarona builds negate said checks and counterplay either through team support or self sufficiency to counteract said checks. The problem is one, you're using a definition term that I've dumb down to the level of monkey language from the previous glittered up definition so it can't be used as the sole justification for a nom. So with that said, I won't consider that text that is solely used for the sake of transparency amongst ranking threads to consider a placement. Here's the thing.....every time someone noms something up or down they use one sub rank with comparison / contrasting points, similar to your argument. But there's one thing you missed entirely that the ranking team uses every single time and when people are confused as to why something didn't change they're left scratching their heads wondering "why"?

You need to take into consideration if it actually fits in B+ amongst everything else just like how you assumed it doesn't fit in A-. It's why M-Gross took awhile to actually drop even after all discussion. You can't say, "oh this is lacking let's drop it" or "oh this is good let's just raise it now". Maybe this is where the subjectivity of the thread takes place but I've used Volcarona quite a bit as well, and I think B+ is a poor position to put Volcarona in not only comparing it amongst all the other B+ stuff but also how it's able to apply a lot more perceived pressure with aspects such as Passho Berry, Lum Berry, Life Orb, Bug Buzz / HP Ground / HP Ice, Will-O-Wisp Quiver Dance, thus creating a potent offensive threat where a lot of the counterplay are situational and shaky at best.

That's really all I have to say about that, cause I think "natural check" is an over exaggeration when you have maybe a couple at best with Talonflame as one prime example.

 

[AM]

I'll try to keep your post in mind the next time I post here. I could continue my argument because I still disagree with your point, but I'll just drop it since it probably won't go anywhere, and no one feels too particular about it. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter to me whether it's in A, B or Z ranking. I was just feeling a bit frustrated because it feels like my post was being dismissed without much acknowledgement , and your post came off a tad bit rude in your chat log with Henry. Not trying to start a fight, but I don't think mods should be calling posts "shitty" and posting a chat log for no real reason, other than to belittle the posters who are trying to contribute (wrong or not). It just comes off as insulting.

Sigh

It would've been worst if I didn't even bother responding and sit behind closed doors not giving a care in the world entirely but ok, let's assume that taking the time to acknowledge your post and provide some reasoning after the fact I could sit down after work and do so is considered rude now. I posted that chat log cause people complain about wanting to see some input from ranking team and all the noms so far was just dropping stuff for the sake of dropping it for "being bloated". I discuss ranking stuff with ranking team on Skype all the time, so if the reality is that you would like a G rated conversation then I'll make sure to censor the words to uphold my standing as an exemplary role model of the OU forum. That's clearly the most important part of this conversation right now to justify what you now deem as a "doesn't matter to me" topic.

I'll make sure not to respond next time in the future so I don't hurt someone else's feelings. Seems like not much of a point to respond to much now.

 

[Lord Xen III]

Not really in agreement with the mega scizor to S sentiment , pretty much to the same extent that I disagree with Gross dropping, although I can resonate with some of the better A+ arguments that were given for that. I mean yes, mega scizor is good and has impressed me in my battles and in watching others. It walls a large portion of the metagame has a very customizable spread, allowing it to switch into the lati twins, metagross, clefable, bisharp, mega lopunny, lando t, and several more. However, similar utility is offered by the current S ranks, and my main problem with scizor is that outside of u turn it does not have the self sufficiency to counterplay its checks except for heatran and in some scenarios rotom wash. What I'm getting at is, mega scizor is kind of easy to switch into as much as it is able to easily switch in on top metagame threats. Zapdos, keldeo, talon flame, char y , char x, thundurus, bulky garchomp, skarmory are all pretty much safe switchins and hard checks, although talon flame and char y can become a little shaky if Sr are up... the list goes on.

Then Look at Char x who makes mega scizor a liability on the opposing team, who between its SD and ddance sets is a very strong versatile threat. While Ddance is the most notable set, the SD set picks off every single defensive check to the ddance set make it difficult to really have safe counterplay options. Then you have mega altaria who has a lot of versaitlity with heal bell, facade, and then having Fire blast and EQ for the steel types leaving mega venusaur as the only real safe switch in and only in some situations, stall breaker talon flame. Then you have aids clefable, who bops all switchins with the threat of t wave or flamethrower, and i must say that special attacking checks to it , such as magnezone mega venusaur ammonngus and heatran, are very unreliable at checking a +1 clefable. Even with metagross who i know isnt S anymore of the time being, you have options like ice punch, earthquake, and the niche thunder punch which makes certain switch ins not exactly safe. Mega Scizor never has really been that threat that like you have to really have to think twice before switching into it, which is what keeps it from being at the pinnacle of the tier for me. Worse yet, magnezone is usuallly paired with threats such as mega diancie and altaria so its pretty hard for scizor to actually stay in and check those threats and because its a mega it cant hold something like shed shell. It only really sweeps late game or as stated a while back against those dragon fairy steel cores ( with latios, clefable, and something like megagross) wherein the latios or clefable isn't carrying a fire type move lure. So it comes back to the fact scizor really relies on u turn to deal with checks, which is still pretty good to have, but even so I'm not particularly a fan of having to run SD and u turn on the same set, as i would rather have bug bite available so when its time to sweep i don't end up phazing my own set up sweeper out. Yes, i understand that you use u turn early game as a pivot then SD late game, but you still need certain threats out of the way unless your completely relying on bullet punch for your late game clean. So with that said, i don't really want to see mega scizor a rank higher than things like megagross and keldeo who either through better coverage options and scald burns for the latter are more self sufficient in dealing with their checks, and if things like bulky chomp and hippo + skarm balance cores were used as arguments for keeping gross out of S the same should apply to scizor who has even less counterplay against these threats than gross bar against hippo ( as unless hippo has whirlwind mega scizor can set up on it). Fire blast chomp really pressures it, meaning it cant really afford to stay in and roost to offset the rocky helmet damage making it more difficult for it come in later on threats such as gardevoir since it also has low speed. Here is a WCOP game proof of the existence of this scenario in high level games.

 

[Srn]

well some of my thoughts on recent noms:

mega zor to s
nah.
i've stated my opinion when this nom was brought up earlier and it hasn't changed (some parts of it are a tad outdated tho):

Hide

I rly like how this thing checks a bunch of shit and has offensive presence and acts as a wincon at the same time and all, but you have to realize that its coverage actually consists of knock/bullet/u-turn/superpower. This may sound contradicting from my manaphy argument where i said having multiple options is bad, but there's a difference because no matter what mana does there is a counter: our lord empoleon. Anyways, speaking of checks and counters, mzor has WAAY too many.
I mean any fire type, some waters, quag, counter skarm, and even some electrics, like megaman and zapdos, can all pretty much hard check scizor. Yes, they're not switching into a +2 superpower, i know, but the point is that the sheer number of mega scizor's checks makes it difficult to sweep with. Yeah its defensive utility is nice and all but its really not breaking a good defensive team or even balance team, which are teeming with rotom-w, bulky chomp, bulky talon, bulky nape (seeing more usage thanks to weavile now), and more. As i said earlier, an S rank mon will ideally be able to crush several types of playstyles, and I don't see mzor doing that.

basically, mzor has too many checks to be S rank, and it can't get past them without repeated opportunities to weaken them. It's just really not sweeping unless its extremely late game.

volcarona drop
nah
it has optoins that are being overlooked like passho, coba, hp rock, hp ice, hp ground, lum, will-o, hell even defensive sets aren't completely unusable as it can actually tank mixed LO kyu-b's entire arsenal (bar outrage/dclaw) which is no easy feat. Definitely a shaky check but that's about as good as it gets.
The super solid checks that volc can't get around are stuff like talon, azu, and chansey, but just about everything else it can threaten in someway, which makes it pretty dangerous.

hippo for A+
support
It's a staple on balance and stall, and practically leads its own playstyle. Imo it's also the only thing stopping megaman from being A+. For all the reasons we know and have been previously listed, along with skyhigh usage in wcop and upper ladder, it should raise. Definitely fits in with the keld lati bisharp crowd, u need something to break it or u will find yourself fucked in many matches.

On a little sidenote i'd personally like raptor to raise to B-

nooom

I find it very comparable to stuff like lucario and crawdaunt which are B- and B. well its main strengths are in its two big sets, band and scarf. Band is jesus christ strong and its power levels combined with lack of survivability in my eyes leaves it pretty comparable to crawdaunt, as while that can set up and has prio, raptor's decent base speed and super high base power moves make up for that. Its coverage leaves nearly nothing safe either, but crawdaunt has to deal with azu and keld and dragons etc etc.
The second set which is often more interesting and more used is scarf. I like using adamant scarf myself, it's a pgud cleaner but also hits hilariously hard. It straight up 2hkos TANK chomp, and yes it kills itself in the process, but a scarfer shitting on walls thru stabs is not something often seen.

But what i've seen used nicely is scarf final gambit; basically raptor is fast enough to just wipe its switch-ins off while killing itself which often opens up big holes, and it's fairly unexpected so it has a pretty good success rate. It's not even something that has to be used right away, even with uninvested attack a scarf raptor won't be hitting lightly.

ofc its frail as shit and weak to rocks but for the two or so turns that it gets in per game it really does just click stabs and do atleast 70% to everything lol that deserves more merit than being among rhyperior and cobalion.

 

[AM]

Ranking team will be deciding on rankings from here on out. I'll be changing whatever they agree on through but not going to be part of official team anymore. Lost tons of interest of ever posting in this thread and was a long time coming with some people I talked to anyways. Thanks for the support.

 

[EternalSnowman]

I think that Raptor should definitely rise to B+. Something that wasn't mentioned in the previous post is that Raptor has access to Close Combat, giving it near perfect coverage between Fighting and Flying types. It has two viable abilities, one in Intimidate that allows revenge killing threats like M-Scizor easier, or Reckless which allows it to hit like a truck. On top of this it holds some nice utility with U-Turn. The main things that hold Raptor back is the low survivability with Lack of Bulk+SR Weakness+Recoil Move(s) as main STAB options. Overall it fits better with the other B/B- mons that have similar pros/cons as Raptor like Crawdaunt.

Also, good-bye AM, it sucks to see you go.

 

[daniel kell]

HOOPA UNBOUND TO S RANK
Hoopa unbound is in my opinion the best mon in oras ou right now with mega altaria. Having an amazing move coverage and pretty much the highest mixed stats in the game means it is the best wall breaker in the tier. It can two hit everything to b- (excluding mandibuzz) ( http://pastebin.com/hL9P8cH1 note set i'm running is 252 attack, 56 sp attack and 196 speed with a hasty nature.) With hyperspace fury, zen headbutt, drain punch, fire punch, and energy ball. This thing is easily S rank and maybe even ban worthy. Although it can get easily revenge killed anything with the possibility too two hit nearly all of the usable meta with rocks up is s rank in my books.

 

[Ksh13]

HOOPA UNBOUND TO S RANK
Hoopa unbound is in my opinion the best mon in oras ou right now with mega altaria. Having an amazing move coverage and pretty much the highest mixed stats in the game means it is the best wall breaker in the tier. It can two hit everything to b- (excluding mandibuzz) ( http://pastebin.com/hL9P8cH1 note set i'm running is 252 attack, 56 sp attack and 196 speed with a hasty nature.) With hyperspace fury, zen headbutt, drain punch, fire punch, and energy ball. This thing is easily S rank and maybe even ban worthy. Although it can get easily revenge killed anything with the possibility too two hit nearly all of the usable meta with rocks up is s rank in my books.

Well, it's mediocre Speed and horrible defense is a huge problem for it. It can 2HKO a lot of things with coverage, but it can just get OHKO'ed by whatever physical move before it gets to do anything in a lot of cases. The Scarf set kind of solves the Speed problem, but when you lock into a move, your opponent will have something that can easily tank it and revenge kill you. It still has an incredible damage output, as you showcased, but the speed, defense, and defensive typing (it resists nothing I do believe, and any Bug move in existense OHKO's it (almost, I am just trying to prove a point)), makes it not S worthy.

 

[Alfalfa]

I'm saying it should be ranked. I'm not saying it should be high tho. imo it should be D due to just how niche the teams it fits on are, and I was just comparing them in a vacuum (i.e. assuming no one-mega mechanics).

Anyway, imo calcs are a poor demonstration of the increase in power as it doesn't really show the stat difference (although it does show difference in damage v.s. key targets - but iirc Surf isn't very good on Defog mega as EQ is better in, like, 99% of scenarios due to the attack boost (iirc its big enough to not need Naive to OHKO SpD Tran after rocks, although it is still needed if you don't want to factor in rocks)). Going off of numbers alone, Mega Latios' power is 90.1075268817% that of LO Latios' (stat after LO boost rounded down due to pokemon mechanics). This isn't a big difference at all, as it is an approx. 10% decrease in power over LO Latios (not damage - raw power) A better thing to calc for an estimate of power difference would be Draco v.s. Mew:

252 SpA Mega Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 247-292 (72.4 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 274-325 (80.3 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

gamer boy that is still a significant change in power; you can underplay SE hits if you want, but it doesn't change the fact that LO Latios possesses notably higher special offense than Mega Latios.

 

[Dragongroudon9]

---> C Rank


So I wonder how much hate I am going to get for this.... Anyway, I have great reasoning for why this thing should be C rank, as I will explain below. But I honestly can't understand why it is below some of the things in C rank. (I know that is not a legitimate reason for it moving up.)

• Bulk

This is probably one of the most bulky Pokemon in the entire game. The towering 230 base defense is near impossible to break for physical attackers. Mega Aggron can function on your team as a check/counter to major threats in the metagame. With the ability Filter, Mega Aggron is able to take physical hits that are super effective with ease. Here is a list of mons that Mega Aggron that Aggron can potentially check/counter in the OU metagame, I can leave some calcs to back these up as well. Physical DD Mega Alt, Mega Metagross, Clefable (Shaky), Azumarill, Bisharp, Scizor/Mega Scizor, Mega Diancie (Shaky), Hoopa, Latis, Weavile, etc...

Calcs

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 102-121 (29.6 - 35.1%) -- 18.4% chance to 3HKO
+1 192+ Atk Mega Altaria Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 99-117 (28.7 - 34%) -- 0.9% chance to 3HKO
+1 0 SpA Clefable Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Filter Mega Aggron: 129-153 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Mega Aggron: 102-121 (29.6 - 35.1%) -- 18.4% chance to 3HKO
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Mega Aggron: 273-322 (79.3 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Wow)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Mega Aggron: 129-152 (37.5 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Mega Diancie Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Filter Mega Aggron: 159-187 (46.2 - 54.3%) -- 54.3% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Superpower vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 139-165 (40.4 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+6 84 Atk Mega Scizor Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Mega Aggron: 121-143 (35.1 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Mega Scizor Superpower vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 205-243 (59.5 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Hoopa Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 80-96 (23.2 - 27.9%) -- 82.5% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Hoopa Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Mega Aggron: 107-126 (31.1 - 36.6%) -- 63.3% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 105-125 (30.5 - 36.3%) -- 47.7% chance to 3HKO

• Movepool

While nothing too special, it can help get a specific role done on your team. Sr allows Aggron to set up hazards, and it will probably get to do it against a lot of things on your opponent's team. Dragon Tail is a really good move on Aggron, it allows you to get rid of a Pokemon set up to potentially sweep your team. It works a lot of the time again due to Aggron's big defense. Iron Head and Heavy Slam give Aggron access to good STAB, Heavy Slam getting up to 120 BP iirc. Aggron also gets access to Fire Punch and EQ, which can be uses to kill off threats. What little people realize is that Mega Aggron has a big 140 base attack, which is nothing to laugh at. Fire Punch allows it to beat threats like the Scizors and beat Ferro.


That is honestly all I have for Aggron now, I don't see a reason for it not to move up. It does have a pretty low special defense stat, but Filter does allow it to live hits from threats in crucial moments and follow to revenge kill. Aggron's speed is also low, but it doesn't make much of a difference cause he is already living a ton of attacks. I just don't see why it is this low on viability when in has so many uses. It does take up a mega spot, which is probably one of the reasons why it is ranked so low, but it is a mega that does its job so well that it deserves to be higher. Sorry if my arguments sound cluttered, just busy. Enjoy :]

 

[Srn]

---> C Rank

So I wonder how much hate I am going to get for this.... Anyway, I have great reasoning for why this thing should be C rank, as I will explain below. But I honestly can't understand why it is below some of the things in C rank. (I know that is not a legitimate reason for it moving up.)

• Bulk

This is probably one of the most bulky Pokemon in the entire game. The towering 230 base defense is near impossible to break for physical attackers. Mega Aggron can function on your team as a check/counter to major threats in the metagame. With the ability Filter, Mega Aggron is able to take physical hits that are super effective with ease. Here is a list of mons that Mega Aggron that Aggron can potentially check/counter in the OU metagame, I can leave some calcs to back these up as well. Physical DD Mega Alt, Mega Metagross, Clefable (Shaky), Azumarill, Bisharp, Scizor/Mega Scizor, Mega Diancie (Shaky), Hoopa, Latis, Weavile, etc...

Calcs

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 102-121 (29.6 - 35.1%) -- 18.4% chance to 3HKO
+1 192+ Atk Mega Altaria Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 99-117 (28.7 - 34%) -- 0.9% chance to 3HKO
+1 0 SpA Clefable Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Filter Mega Aggron: 129-153 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Mega Aggron: 102-121 (29.6 - 35.1%) -- 18.4% chance to 3HKO
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Mega Aggron: 273-322 (79.3 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Wow)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Mega Aggron: 129-152 (37.5 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Mega Diancie Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Filter Mega Aggron: 159-187 (46.2 - 54.3%) -- 54.3% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Superpower vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 139-165 (40.4 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+6 84 Atk Mega Scizor Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Mega Aggron: 121-143 (35.1 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Mega Scizor Superpower vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 205-243 (59.5 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Hoopa Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 80-96 (23.2 - 27.9%) -- 82.5% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Hoopa Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Mega Aggron: 107-126 (31.1 - 36.6%) -- 63.3% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 105-125 (30.5 - 36.3%) -- 47.7% chance to 3HKO

• Movepool

While nothing too special, it can help get a specific role done on your team. Sr allows Aggron to set up hazards, and it will probably get to do it against a lot of things on your opponent's team. Dragon Tail is a really good move on Aggron, it allows you to get rid of a Pokemon set up to potentially sweep your team. It works a lot of the time again due to Aggron's big defense. Iron Head and Heavy Slam give Aggron access to good STAB, Heavy Slam getting up to 120 BP iirc. Aggron also gets access to Fire Punch and EQ, which can be uses to kill off threats. What little people realize is that Mega Aggron has a big 140 base attack, which is nothing to laugh at. Fire Punch allows it to beat threats like the Scizors and beat Ferro.


That is honestly all I have for Aggron now, I don't see a reason for it not to move up. It does have a pretty low special defense stat, but Filter does allow it to live hits from threats in crucial moments and follow to revenge kill. Aggron's speed is also low, but it doesn't make much of a difference cause he is already living a ton of attacks. I just don't see why it is this low on viability when in has so many uses. It does take up a mega spot, which is probably one of the reasons why it is ranked so low, but it is a mega that does its job so well that it deserves to be higher. Sorry if my arguments sound cluttered, just busy. Enjoy :]

only reason i'd oppose this nom is for what reason would i use this over mzor?
Lets look at the things u said maggron checks:

Physical DD Mega Alt, Mega Metagross, Clefable (Shaky), Azumarill, Bisharp, Scizor/Mega Scizor, Mega Diancie (Shaky), Hoopa, Latis, Weavile, etc...

Mzor checks all of those as well (except itself), and is a much better check in general since it doesn't have to rely on rest or wish support to stay healthy :/

The few notable advantages i see to using mega aggron is being far less prone to fire (which can be easily covered with all the prominent waters in the tier) and being able to set rocks/phaze (sorry, but 140 base attack unboosted by an item with steel as your offensive stab is something to laugh at).
So is that worth not using mzor instead, which is neutral to ground+fighting, has recovery, has priority, can pivot, has a very solid sdef stat, and can actually clean offensive teams?( all in one set?) It's passive as hell but it can even do defog decently enough.
Sorry, but it just has so much competition with other steels that it's tough for me to think of a reason to really use this thing.

 

[Dragongroudon9]

Honestly you wouldn't use it over Mega Scizor. But then again, why would you use Mega Latios over Mega Alt, Mega Char, Mega Latias, regular Latios? I don't see a true reason behind this. Half the things is C rank have a ton of competition when it comes to other Pokemon doing their jobs better than them, but they are still ranked above Mega Aggron. I understand I shouldn't base arguments by other Pokemon in other ranks, but I see a lot of mons in C rank that have the same case as Mega Aggron. I don't know, maybe I am wrong here, but after using Aggron in OU and the success that has come with it is notable. I do not have any replays to back this up however, which is not helping my case. I would just like to see a move up.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Ranking team will be deciding on rankings from here on out. I'll be changing whatever they agree on through but not going to be part of official team anymore. Lost tons of interest of ever posting in this thread and was a long time coming with some people I talked to anyways. Thanks for the support.

You can't go. . . The only reason I post here anymore is for your approval.

On a serious note, can't say I blame ya, couldn't imagine having to act professional and deal with some of these noms, among other things lol.

But, on to the meat and 'taters of what I wanted to say.

Hippowdon for A+.
That is something I can actually get behind. You show me a physically offensive mon, and I'll show you a way Hippowdon can get around it. The way I see it is if Garchomp is A+, (let's be honest, it's for it's RH fat annoying piece of shit set) then I feel Hippowdon should be too. It's, as it has been stated, a staple for many, if not all balance builds. It is so absolutely amazing at what it does. It walls half of the meta, simple as that. And what it doesn't wall, they're not the fondest of switching in. Point is, if you're not using Garchomp, you're using Hippowdon on balance. I'm serious, watch a balance team in action, if it doesn't have Garchomp on it, chances are very high that it has Hippowdon. Do it, I'll wait. . .

It's obscene amount of bulk, and amazing recovery means it is staying alive for quite some time, it also sets up rocks, fazes, and is over all just an amazing blanket check for a good chunk of the meta. And for that, I have to agree with A+.

 

[Dragongroudon9]

Mega Aggron does have niches actually, I did forget Twave. While Mega Sciz is able to come in to checks mons, all it does is force them out. Mega Aggron is able to spread twave crippling the listed mons along with others for the rest of the match, which is amazing team support. I would like to thank Mudvayne for reminding me of this. It is outclassed by Scizor, but it does have these little niches over it. And of course you are going to need team support for Aggron, something to switch in to special attackers. Just like you would need team support for non Superpower Scizors to take on Heatran. I am not suggesting it go up to where it doesn't belong, I feel that C is perfectly reasonable for a Pokemon with the listed niches in the OU metagame.

 

[North Gate]

I'm just waiting for people to realize that Mega Aggron is in the C's and Mega Scizor is in the A's. Yeah. Lets compare the two and instantly cross the lesser one of the list because 'it's outclassed' when the difference in rank should have been obvious enough.

That being said Mega Aggron is justifiable on teams, it can parashuffle while having immense bulk to check many top tier threats.
Access to Thunder Wave, Roar, and better coverage is Mega Aggron's saving grace from being doomed to mediocrity. (Looking at you, Steelix.) The whole idea that something completely outclasses the other is quite frankly bull and is used way too much. This happens in a lot of cases, such as Tornadus-T and Mega Pidgeot, Shaymin and Celebi, and Slurpuff and Azumarill. When people fail to realize that the mons are ranked (not in Slurpuff's case, but I digress...) because they have noteworthy things and niches over the mon that seemingly 'outclasses' them.

Mega Aggron is by no means great, and by no means splashable (hence why it's so low...), but C is not chasing flying pigs with it, you say Klefki is a good Thunder Waving Steel, but also fail to realize that Klefki has nowhere near the gargantuan bulk Aggron brings to the table and hence does not check as many things as Aggron does. RestTalk is a thing, while not super reliable, gives Aggron recovery. Aggron also has Wish Support in the back, or it SHOULD. It needs more support than Mega Scizor, obviously, that's why it's C rank, you know, the rank of stuff that aren't as godly as Mega Scizor? I feel like people are having too high expectations for such low ranks...

Mega Aggron should go to C.