Resource RU Viability Ranking Thread: Abomasnow and Slowking Discussion

[Mar1onette]

Clawitzer's most common set atm is LO with speed investment while AV is not that great of a set on it. Meloetta will always run maximum speed investment in order to outspeed many huge threats in RU such as Scrafty, Hitmonlee, and Tyrantrum on all of its sets unless it is Substitute + CM. Like what Punch said, you should really do more research on more research on RU before you make any posts.

i did do research in the RU room and the pkm Calc, and i never said meloetta didnt run speed investment, and i never said LO clawitzer wasn't its most common set, granted i did say that it was one of its more common sets.

 

[phantom]

updates:

Qwilfish up to A-
Camerupt (mega) up to A-
Togetic down to B+
Piloswine up to B

Ludicolo is already C-.... Unless the person who nommed it meant for it to move up to C, but that wasn't very clear.

I'm not sure about moving up Exploud. I mean no doubt it's a great wallbreaker, it's problem though it that it switches in on nothing, has no resists, and is pretty slow. It's kinda useless vs offense because it usually won't get a chance to fire off an attack without taking a huge chunk of damage in the process. Other wallbreakers placed higher up either have a better speed tier or contribute to their team's overall defensive synergy, which Exploud doesn't whatsoever.

edit: let me add some discussion points:

Jolteon down to B+ or stay in A-
Sigilyph up to A+ or stay in A
Delphox up to A or stay in A-
Dugtrio down to B+ or stay in A-

 

[ryan]

Hello fellow RU players. I have come here today to make important nominations.

The first is for Houndoom to move up to S since it's broken and even if it wasn't it's significantly better than Mega Glalie and Flygon.

The second, and more important, is for Vanilluxe to be placed in C rank where it truly belongs. Vanilluxe is a potent wallbreaker and late-game cleaner, as you can see from this wonderful replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ru-252980736

Vanilluxe has fantastic coverage with Ice Beam and Freeze-Dry alone, only missing out on Fire-, Steel-, and Ice-types, two of which are well covered by HP Fire and another two which are handled with HP Ground. I like HP Fire more in RU because of Pokemon such as Bronzong, Escavalier, and Avalugg and because Ice Beam does loads to Fire-types anyways:
252+ SpA Life Orb Vanilluxe Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Emboar: 133-156 (36.8 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Vanilluxe Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Delphox: 94-110 (32.3 - 37.8%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Vanilluxe Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Houndoom: 113-133 (38.8 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Vanilluxe Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Camerupt: 179-212 (52 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Note that non-Scarf Emboar can only switch in once, and the same goes for Life Orb Delphox assuming it attacks something after coming in.

With Weak Armor, Vanilluxe can also come in on weaker neutral attacks or tank a priority attack and clean late-game as well.

The extensive list of reliable Vanilluxe answers is: Bronzong, Registeel

Thank you for your consideration RU players!

 

[tehy]

I protest the moving of Togetic, I see one person who wanted to move it down and 3 people who wanted it to stay. There are some fair points against it, like it doesn't hard counter much, but it's still a nice bulky 'mon who has both Defog and Heal Bell on top of Roost. Roseli Berry Scrafty can still be beaten, considering, and at the very least it sets up only once and is worn away pretty hard. A lot of virizions are moving towards Stone Edge, but it does still get off a nice Dazzling Gleam before it goes down. As for the new prevalence of 'mons like Mega Glalie, Tyrantrum, and Sneasel... the latter two can't switch in, and it's not like Togetic was every walling entire teams to begin with - they'll have something to take it on for the most part regardless, so citing mons that hate to take a dazzling gleam doesn't much impress me. Meanwhile, Cobalion was a serious threat to it which could either set up on it or just reset SR with Taunt and Volt Switch to mess up Togetic.

tl;dr : togetic is good and most people agree

 

[Mar1onette]

I protest the moving of Togetic, I see one person who wanted to move it down and 3 people who wanted it to stay. There are some fair points against it, like it doesn't hard counter much, but it's still a nice bulky 'mon who has both Defog and Heal Bell on top of Roost. Roseli Berry Scrafty can still be beaten, considering, and at the very least it sets up only once and is worn away pretty hard. A lot of virizions are moving towards Stone Edge, but it does still get off a nice Dazzling Gleam before it goes down. As for the new prevalence of 'mons like Mega Glalie, Tyrantrum, and Sneasel... the latter two can't switch in, and it's not like Togetic was every walling entire teams to begin with - they'll have something to take it on for the most part regardless, so citing mons that hate to take a dazzling gleam doesn't much impress me. Meanwhile, Cobalion was a serious threat to it which could either set up on it or just reset SR with Taunt and Volt Switch to mess up Togetic.

tl;dr : togetic is good and most people agree

i wouldn't really say the majority of who thinks matters on if a poke should rise or stay in a rank, i think its the argument(s) that really r the only thing that matter, and i can see why togetic has fallen from A- Rank, pokes like glailie and tyrantrum rule the RU meta right now, granted togetic can wall flygon another threat in the RU tier. togetic is also rekt by sneasel, who is grately used in the RU tier and is a respected poke even with it being BL3. a flaw that togetic has is that its knock off/taunt bait. its capabilities as a mix wall or a wall in general cripples with the loss of eviolite and cant use any of its support/recovery moves when taunted, u might say "what about aromatisse? its a fairy wall to" but aromatisse has aroma veil that prevents it from being taunted, further more aromatisse is a "better" wish passer bcuz of its huge hp while togetic has an mediocre amount (im not saying aromatisse is a better wall than togetic and im not saying togetic is a better wall). togetic is also somewhat "walled" by mega steelix (to an extent) and Sub Cm meloetta, who r also huge threats in the RU meta game. iv'e been using the mix defense/defensive togetic in this argument. togetic is also walled/checked by other "top tier" pokes like rhyperior and jolteon who themselves are common in RU. togetic was great in RU because of the dragon types in RU, like kingdra and noivern, but those 2 major threats r gone meaning togetic doesn't have such a huge niche anymore, because at the time togetic was one of the best pokes to take them on and other pokes like scrafty, but now that those 2 (kingdra and noivern) r gone there r new threats and better pokes to take on those top tier threats in RU, like flygon. flygon (who is also walled by togetic) is walled by bronzong who can set up screens and rocks. scrafty a top tier threat is best "walled" by togetic, so it has that. so in conclusion i do think this drop is justified, togetic is still very viable in RU and i can see it eventually rising back to A- or above in the future just not now. and btw nobody said togetic wasnt gud or was bad, it dropping a VB rank doesn't classify it as a bad poke

 

[Cheryl.]

Hello, I am here to say, why is Tangrowth not A+, I have come to say.

Tangrowth for A+
This thing is a fucking monster right now. One of the best offensive tanks in the meta due to it's high mixed attacking stats, good physical bulk, and Regnerator to keep it alive. LO is my favorite set, hitting like a nuke with Leaf Storm and it's coverage while still having utility with it's bulk and stuff like Leech Seed and Sleep Powder. It also has more defensive sets, investing more in physical bulk or boosting it's special defense with Assault Vest, although this means no Sleep Powder or anything like that. Some problems with Tangrowth include it's low special bulk, weaknesses to common types like Fire and Ice, and it has fairly low speed, but Tangrowth is one of the best things in the meta right now and should rise.

Also nominating Rotom-C to A
Rotom-C is also pretty good right now too. While it has good bulk, it usually uses more offensive sets, like Choice Scarf or Specs. Scarf outspeeds a whole bunch of threats and still hits hard, and can cripple a wall with Trick. Specs is not as fast, but it hits like a nuke and can also cripple walls. It can cause momentum with Volt Switch as well. Levitate is also nice to check Ground Types and bypass most hazards. Some problems with Rotom-C are competition from Tangrowth as a Grass type, and being locked into a move can be unfavorable at times, and it has the same common weaknesses to types like Tangrowth too, but Rotom-C is pretty awesome right now in the meta and should definetely rise.

 

[rau]

I like HP Fire more in RU because of Pokemon such as Bronzong, Escavalier, and Avalugg

ಠ_ಠ

Sigilyph up to A+ or stay in A

Sigilyph does well as is, being a versatile attacker that plows through defensive teams well, yet it is devastated by faster attackers such as Sneasel and Mega Glalie and also stopped by Pokemon with high special defense and most dark types like Meloetta and Houndoom respectively, just to name a few. I'd go as far and say that Sigilyph has 4MSS, since it has the adequate coverage moves, yet it's hard to fit it all in four slots. With all that in mind, my verdict is that Sigilyph stays in A.

 

[Lord Death Man]

Jolteon down to B+. It's just not that threatening. Stab Volt Switch off 110 special attack is cool and all, but it's coverage is absolutely abysmal and it has to choose if it can do anything to Seismatoad, Megalix or Flygon, none of which are uncommon. If you happen to have the right hidden power and get that predict right, 2hkoing (and it's almost never even an OHKO) a key mon is very cool, but Jolteon's cool speed rarely feels useful over Rotom-C's much more useful everything else. The subpass set is decently cool (especially if you're HP water to hit the two common roar mons, since hitting Toad and Gastro matters much less on that set) but can very easily end up of questionable utility against offense.
Sigilyph I don't know, all out attacker variants rarely feel particularly good to me especially with Meloetta around, but the stallbreaker set is a god and it does amazingly well against balance teams. However, it still crumbles against a lot of mons I personally feel are staples to offense and balance, though I don't think others fully agree with me on that. Shadow Ball Meloetta and Houndoom are super uncommon now so I think it benefits a lot from that. It's super customizable but everyone keeps using the same 3 or so sets because that's what's worth using.
Delphox stay in A-. The meta hasn't felt favorable to Delphox, to me, for a while. It can be useful but Colbur usually feels bad to me, sub CM is cool and stuff, and sub Salac CM is an awesome set, but almost every team that's prepared for Meloetta and/or Sigilyph is prepared for Delphox, and while Delphox certainly has unique aspects, I feel they're often overshadowed by those other mons.
Dugtrio stay in A-. How can you suggest two Psychics go up and then suggest their best partner go down? Trapping is probably broken and Dugtrio traps a lot. I know the key stuff that it traps aren't exactly popular right now but a big part of that is Dugtrio's (and Flygon's) impact in the first place, and almost every team has something Dugtrio can trap anyway. If anything I'm of the opinion Dugtrio should move up because it can easily make running all sorts of mons a liability.

I also think Meloetta should be S and Glalie should be A+ but I don't feel like making that post right now.

EDIT: I keep putting in and removing a distaste for Camerupt having moved up because it's bad. Nearly every positive for Camerupt applies to Exploud except Exploud is mindless and yet often more effective.

 

[phantom]

Dugtrio stay in A-. How can you suggest two Psychics go up and then suggest their best partner go down? Trapping is probably broken and Dugtrio traps a lot.

Yes, trapping is clearly broken when Dugtrio consistently traps 4 Pokemon in all of A Rank, and it needs a substitute to do so as well! Many of the Pokemon that Dugtrio would like to trap, such as Emboar or Tyrantrum, commonly carry a Scarf that dissuade it from wanting to swap into them even after a sac. So unless you're using the terribly bad Focus Sash set which can't even OHKO Tyrantrum from full, you're not trapping jack shit. I fail to see how this Pokemon should move up or even stay where it is when it has an extremely limited pool of targets, many of which employ a Choice Scarf or have priority to get around it anyway.

I keep putting in and removing a distaste for Camerupt having moved up because it's bad. Nearly every positive for Camerupt applies to Exploud except Exploud is mindless and yet often more effective.

Oh, I didn't know Exploud could switch in on most Fire- and Electric-types, provide Stealth Rock support, have actual bulk, provide defensive synergy, can sponge Knock Off, and can block Volt Switch. Clearly Exploud does all of those things as well. I can't believe that you're actually insinuating that a Pokemon that can't switch in on anything for fear of status, thus making it easier to play around in the case of defensive teams, or a moderately strong attack you would find on any offense, is somehow more effective than a Pokemon that can actually switch in on shit and support its team in addition to wallbreaking. No one is arguing that Camerupt is a better wallbreaker than Exploud; in fact, Camerupt is more of a tank than a wallbreaker, but Camerupt does have its fair share of uses that are good enough to place it in A-. I don't think you realize just how difficult it is finding a switch-in for this thing on offense when it manages to get a free switch-in, which unlike Exploud, it can do so on its own thanks to its typing and bulk. Camerupt isn't just a wallbreaker, it's also an adequate Stealth Rock user and offensive check to a variety of threatening Pokemon.

 

[Lord Death Man]

Yes, trapping is clearly broken when Dugtrio consistently traps 4 Pokemon in all of A Rank, and it needs a substitute to do so as well! Many of the Pokemon that Dugtrio would like to trap, such as Emboar or Tyrantrum, commonly carry a Scarf that dissuade it from wanting to swap into them even after a sac. So unless you're using the terribly bad Focus Sash set which can't even OHKO Tyrantrum from full, you're not trapping jack shit. I fail to see how this Pokemon should move up or even stay where it is when it has an extremely limited pool of targets, many of which employ a Choice Scarf or have priority to get around it anyway..

Teams aren't made entirely out of A-ranks, most mons are weakened beforehand because Dugtrio can't switch into anything (if anything, this is it's real weakness), etc. The ability to just outright removal something like Virizion is pretty cash. I also don't think the focus sash set is actually all that bad when it traps and revenges Scrafty if hazards are down - which is obviously not always easy or effortless, but revenging Scrafty also isn't easy.

I kind of regret being as snappy about Camerupt, but Camerupt can't switch in on any fire type unless it's using a fire-type attack or running the specially defensive set - and even then, it gets 2hko'd by Delphox's LO Psyshock after rocks and is rapidly worn down by hazards, only three mons commonly use volt switch (Jolteon, Rotom-C and Eelektross; Magneton doesn't see that much use to my knowledge) and it can't really switch in reliably on Rotom-C and can be bopped on the switch by Hp Water Jolteon (which Jolteon uses to hit Mega Steelix, though the hidden power problem is why I suggested. Stealth Rock is always legit on an offensive mon and I agree with that being a viable niche somewhat. Alomomola and Phys Def Jellicent are hugely common hard stops, as is nearly any specially defensive water type (so things like Seismatoad and Gastrodon, though they're not commonly seen as spdef), SpDef Togetic (and, ugh, Golbat), and the special defensive set also has every offensive Meloetta set (except maybe sub CM just because you want your HP more), Phys Def Togetic, Eelektross (though it needs hp water or aqua tail to do anything). Flygon can also, often, come in on Camerupt, but is afraid of Wow and Hidden Power Ice. Most of Camerupt's switch-ins are against Balance and Stall, but it doesn't do a whole lot against those playstyles unless the team has already been smashed to pieces with a wallbreaker, at which point a different fire type is often just as useful. Camerupt's switch ins are admittedly low, but they're found on nearly every team.

Exploud can switch in on weak hits fine, and has very similar bulk (but slightly less so) to modest Camerupt. I fail to understand how Exploud is afraid of any status except sleep and paralysis, especially more so than Camerupt, as well - especially if we're discussing Camerupt on the merits of it's defensive utility. While Camerupt can certainly do a lot with a free switch-in, so can Exploud, and the amount of those against offense are extremely limited against a lot of offensive mons - even coming in following a kill can be problematic, because of Camerupt's only decent 70/100/100 bulk. I don't think Camerupt provides the defensive or offensive utility for A- and requires too much team support to really shine against any play style, and without that support it doesn't always do anything it wants to do. I stand by my assertion that I think Camerupt was bad (for A-, though I guess I just said it was bad), though I regret saying it how I did since it wasn't a productive way to talk about it anyway and I should have addressed it more fully before mentioning it at all.

 

[Mar1onette]

Hello, I am here to say, why is Tangrowth not A+, I have come to say.

Tangrowth for A+
This thing is a fucking monster right now. One of the best offensive tanks in the meta due to it's high mixed attacking stats, good physical bulk, and Regnerator to keep it alive. LO is my favorite set, hitting like a nuke with Leaf Storm and it's coverage while still having utility with it's bulk and stuff like Leech Seed and Sleep Powder. It also has more defensive sets, investing more in physical bulk or boosting it's special defense with Assault Vest, although this means no Sleep Powder or anything like that. Some problems with Tangrowth include it's low special bulk, weaknesses to common types like Fire and Ice, and it has fairly low speed, but Tangrowth is one of the best things in the meta right now and should rise.

Also nominating Rotom-C to A
Rotom-C is also pretty good right now too. While it has good bulk, it usually uses more offensive sets, like Choice Scarf or Specs. Scarf outspeeds a whole bunch of threats and still hits hard, and can cripple a wall with Trick. Specs is not as fast, but it hits like a nuke and can also cripple walls. It can cause momentum with Volt Switch as well. Levitate is also nice to check Ground Types and bypass most hazards. Some problems with Rotom-C are competition from Tangrowth as a Grass type, and being locked into a move can be unfavorable at times, and it has the same common weaknesses to types like Tangrowth too, but Rotom-C is pretty awesome right now in the meta and should definetely rise.

I think whats holding rotom-C back somewhat is the usage of glaile and sneasel, these two pokes r rising stars of RU, but also pokes like houndoom, emboar, and mega camerupt in their own right are strong, hard hitting threats that can get a free hit on rotom-C or anything it switches into, and also CM Virizion can set-up on rotom-C due to it resisting its dual stabs and not greatly being effected by w0w (will-o-wisp). rotom-C also struggles against bulky grass types like tangrowth and amoongus, but something rotom-C can do effectively is tricking a choice item and possibly crippling bulky walls like amoongus, aslo rotom-C is checked by Escavalier because of its natural bulk to take any hit from rotom-C and forces a switch if your not carrying w0w. On the bright side of rotom-C it also can check a lot of the meta with its dual stabs in leaf storm and v-switch/tbolt. some pokes it checks/counters are mola, jellicent, mega steelix, dugtrio, and rhyperior, and are all great and commonly used in RU. rotom-C can be used in a various of ways, as a wall, scarf pivot, support, or even specs. even with some of rotom-C's hold back's in the RU meta, I also Nominate Rotom-C to A

 

[phantom]

Teams aren't made entirely out of A-ranks,

I never said that they were-the point was to illustrate the extremely limited amount of relevant targets Dugtrio can successfully trap, which is the biggest knock on its viability. When the trapper in question doesn't trap all that much, and the Pokemon it traps aren't all that important, it's not very viable. Period.

I also don't think the focus sash set is actually all that bad when it traps and revenges Scrafty if hazards are down - which is obviously not always easy or effortless, but revenging Scrafty also isn't easy.

252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Scrafty: 105-124 (38.7 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

You realize that Scrafty can Dragon Dance on Focus Sash Dugtrio again and Drain Punch all of the health back (it's really that weak), unless of course you manage to time it correctly and use Reversal at the exact moment Scrafty attacks. That requires quite a bit of guesswork, so I wouldn't describe this point as a positive, and you can pretty much forget about that terrible Sash Dugtrio set revenge killing Scrafty if it has a Chople Berry, or you know, attained even the slightest bit of prior damage, thus breaking the Sash.

The reason why Focus Sash Dugtrio isn't good is because it fails to actually kill anything with moderate bulk even if the target in question takes super effective damage from an Earthquake. Simply put, Dugtrio needs the power and the ability to switch moves from Life Orb or else it can't do its job nearly as effectively.

I kind of regret being as snappy about Camerupt, but Camerupt can't switch in on any fire type unless it's using a fire-type attack or running the specially defensive set

That's why you run bulk on it in the first place? The nice part about Mega Camerupt is that it needs no spa investment to promptly 2HKO the vast majority of the tier. Running SpA investment is more often than not, a waste.

(Jolteon, Rotom-C and Eelektross; Magneton doesn't see that much use to my knowledge)

The ability to absorb Volt Switch goes beyond simply stopping a few Pokemon-it involves stopping the momentum of VoltTurn teams as a whole, that's why a lot of successful teams tend to carry Ground-types in order to keep sap the opposing team's momentum at just the right time.

and it can't really switch in reliably on Rotom-C and can be bopped on the switch by Hp Water Jolteon

Lol yeah, because Jolteon commonly carries HP Water in a meta where Flygon exists. For Rotom-C, it depends on its set, it can swap into a Scarf Leaf Storm just fine, although yes it does get worn down.

Stealth Rock is always legit on an offensive mon and I agree with that being a viable niche somewhat. Alomomola and Phys Def Jellicent are hugely common hard stops, as is nearly any specially defensive water type (so things like Seismatoad and Gastrodon, though they're not commonly seen as spdef), SpDef Togetic (and, ugh, Golbat), and the special defensive set also has every offensive Meloetta set (except maybe sub CM just because you want your HP more), Phys Def Togetic, Eelektross (though it needs hp water or aqua tail to do anything).

Man, do even make the effort to see how much damage those Pokemon take, or do literally just list out anything that resists a Fire/Ground move as a "hard stop"?

Also, did you seriously just list Golbat as a counter to Camerupt? Golbat is 2HKOed by Fire Blast and is destroyed by Earth Power when it Roosts, that is not, in anyway, shape, or form a check and most certainly not a hard stop.

Physically defensive Togetic, which is the most optimal defensive spread, is 2HKOed after Stealth Rock and loses one-versus-one against Toxic variants anyway. All of the other Pokemon you listed are 3HKOed at worst, the ones with Recovery are forced to Recover and give up momentum when swapping in on an Earth Power and the ones without (Seismitoad, Eelektross) can't even swap in again. Those aren't "hard stops", just checks, and one of the checks you listed is actually countered by Camerupt itself (Eelektross), which would only have business running Aqua Tail for the sole purpose of beating Camerupt in the first place.

Flygon can also, often, come in on Camerupt, but is afraid of Wow and Hidden Power Ice.

Only if its the defensive set. Offensive Flygon takes 42% minimum from Fire Blast, not an optimal switch-in in the least bit.

Most of Camerupt's switch-ins are against Balance and Stall

I didn't know Houndoom, Delphox, Durant, Sneasel, and offensive Electric-types are mostly balance/stall mons. Granted, it won't switch in on every move they have perfectly, but it can come in to sponge their primary STAB(s).

but it doesn't do a whole lot against those playstyles unless the team has already been smashed to pieces with a wallbreaker, at which point a different fire type is often just as useful.

What kind of assertion is that? How can you even say that a Pokemon that 2HKOs the entire tier, and can cripple the few that aren't with Toxic, won't put in work vs a defensive build?

Camerupt's switch ins are admittedly low, but they're found on nearly every team.

What exactly switches into Camerupt on an offensive team that isn't 2HKOed by its STABs or destroyed by HP Ice?

Exploud can switch in on weak hits fine, and has very similar bulk (but slightly less so) to modest Camerupt.

Having the same bulk is irrelevant when Exploud has no resists to make use of and doesn't invest in its bulk anyway.

I fail to understand how Exploud is afraid of any status except sleep and paralysis

You really don't see the problem with Exploud taking a Toxic as it switches in to say, SpD Alomomola, and then gets promptly Protect stalled? Pretty much every Pokemon hates taking status with a few exceptions. This is worse for Exploud because unlike Camerupt, it can't take advantage of a free turn granted by Protect stalling to do anything.

 

[Punchshroom]

Lord Death Man MegaRupt is barely comparable to Exploud even in the wallbreaking sense; MegaRupt relies more on its bulk + resists (lets it switch into things like Aromatisse and Spiritomb) to start pounding things as it doesn't have the Speed to outrun walls like Alomo and Jellicent. If anything MegaRupt should be compared to Mega Steelix, and not just for the opportunity cost; both MLix and (SpD) MRupt operate in the same fashion in taking hits from popular offensive Pokemon and striking for 2HKOes against offensive teams even without investment due to their sheer power.

I've had an argument against Mega Camerupt before, and I still stand by those points about keeping it in B+, but I guess I can live with MRupt in A- for the time being. I've probably underrated defensive MegaRupt a little despite the fact that I think it faces a bit of competition from bulky Flygon in terms of walling the same threats, although with that said Spirit, wouldn't Flamethrower be the better alternative over Fire Blast for the PP issues, unless it gets some KOes I'm unaware of?

 

[aurora]

I'd like to nominate Torterra for C or, possibly, C+ rank. Its Rock Polish set, which you can find on its analysis, is very underrated. Once it's set up, it hits a fantastic Speed tier, only being outsped by seven other Pokemon (several of which are weak as fuck, uncommon +Spe Scarf sets) and, from there, can act as an effective wallbreaker or late game cleaner. It's able to force out Ground-types, such as Mega Steelix (which it 2HKOes with Earthquake while being 4HKOed by Heavy Slam) and set up (this also gives it good synergy with Fire-types, who really appreciate having Ground-types obliterated). 109 base Attack is not too shabby, and despite being forced to run a Jolly nature to prevent it from being outsped and OHKOed by shit like Choice Scarf Braviary, it hits very hard with Life Orb, netting neat OHKOes on Alomomola, all Braviary variants on the switch, and 2HKOing most other things with neutral STABs after Stealth Rock. In addition, thanks to its excellent natural 95 / 105 physical bulk, it even survives Ice Shards from Sneasel (most of the time) and Mega Glalie that try to kill it!

252 Atk Mega Glalie Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Torterra: 240-288 (72.5 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Torterra Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Glalie: 302-356 (100.3 - 118.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Torterra: 265-317 (80 - 95.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Torterra Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sneasel: 302-356 (120.3 - 141.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

You do need to be able to deal with opposing Grass-types if you want Torterra to succeed, though. Tangrowth laughs at it, with offensive variants being able to OHKO Torterra with Leaf Storm, and specially offensive Virizion almost always OHKOes with Hidden Power Ice after rocks (always OHKOing it if Torterra tries Wood Hammering it). In addition, Torterra has some issues with switching into bulky Water-types, as it is completely neutered by Scald burns, dies to Ice Beam, and might cop a Will-O-Wisp on the switch from crafty Jellicent. Torterra does beat defensive Amoonguss, however, as it's able to switch into Spore with impunity, only failing to 2HKO relatively uncommon 252/160+ and 252/252+ Amoonguss after Stealth Rock. Shiftry also cannot switch in safely, as it is 2HKOed by everything Torterra runs after Stealth Rock damage.

Torterra has some other options, item-wise. It can run Coba Berry to lure Braviary and Fletchinder, smacking them with Stone Edge, but the loss of power can be annoying, as well as the fact that it's only a one-time use item. The same thing applies to Lum Berry: while it allows Torterra switch into bulky Water-types without having to worry about getting burned, I personally find Life Orb a much more rewarding item. Overall, Torterra needs some support to work efficiently, but is a monstrosity when the circumstances are right for it.

 

[-kal-]

-> Up to A+
Sigilyph is very stellar atm, even with the recent popularity of Tyrantrum, Mega Glalie, and Sneasel. Life Orb is probably the best set, easily breaking many common balanced cores (most notably bulky Waters + Steels) while not being so shit against offense due to its decent speed tier. Houndoom and Delphox are not really safe switch-ins as Air Slash does a decent amount (2HKOing the former).Sucker Punch is annoying but Doom will not always come out on top. Focus Sash is more inclined to take on offensive teams, being able to revenge kill or cripple the aforementioned threats with ease as well as acting as an emergency check to Swords Dance Virizion and Dragon Dance Scrafty. Bulky CM sets (talking bout Psycho Shift + Flame Orb set) can dismantle Stall teams quite nicely but does not fare too badly against offense because again its speed and the fact that it can cripple its common switch-ins. It can even beat non Hex variants of Jellicent albeit slowly.
tl;dr Sigilyph should move up due to its versatility and the fact that its such a great balance breaker.

-> Down to B+
Unfortunately, Dugtrio has really fallen out of favor recently. With the advent of Ice Shard users in Sneasel and Mega Glalie, Dugtrio struggles to provide support for Psychics nowadays. Scrafty and Flygon are also pretty decent stops to this, both of which are very good rn. The pokemons that Dugtrio are meant to trap and revenge kill are either equipped with a Choice Scarf ( Emboar, Tyrantrum) or just not very common as they once were ( Drapion, Skuntank to a lesser extent). With the right support Dugtrio can definitely pull its weight for the team but I feel that it isn't that great in this current meta.

Im still on the fence on the two other nominations so im gonna leave them out for now.

Time for a nom of my own:

-> Up to A-
Gallade is a huge threat against defensively-oriented teams. Its Swords Dance and Choice Band set makes it such a fearsome wallbreaker while its Bulk Up set makes it a potential win condition and it can really dismantle many common balanced cores. Aromatisse and Togetic can be easily 2HKOed by a +2 Zen Headbutt with some prior damage while they also fail to OHKO Gallade with their STAB attacks from full. Spiritomb is not even a counter to Gallade's Safeguard + Bulk Up set if it does not run Foul Play while unboosted Hex from Jellicent does very little to Bulk Up variants meaning that it can beat them one-on-one.

Calcs against Togetic and Aromatisse

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Gallade Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Togetic: 177-211 (56.5 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Togetic Dazzling Gleam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gallade: 128-152 (46 - 54.6%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Gallade Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 244+ Def Aromatisse: 296-348 (72.9 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Aromatisse Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gallade: 182-216 (65.4 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Calcs against Spiritomb and Jellicent

252+ Atk Black Glasses Spiritomb Sucker Punch vs. +1 248 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 129-153 (38 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 Atk Gallade Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Spiritomb: 145-171 (49.3 - 58.1%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO

0 SpA Jellicent Hex (65 BP) vs. 248 HP / 96+ SpD Gallade: 92-110 (27.1 - 32.4%) -- 56.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 Atk Gallade Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Jellicent: 290-342 (71.7 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Furthermore, Gallade is not as terrible against Offensive teams as much as Exploud as it sits in a decent Base 80 speed tier, its great natural special bulk which allows it to tank some special hits as well as its useful resistances to Fighting- and Rock-types. Also, against offensive teams Gallade does not need to setup a Swords Dance most of the time as its monstrously powerful attacks can 2HKO or OHKO a majority of these team archetypes. Obviously, Gallade's subpar physical defense and its decent but not great speed tier really hinders it down which makes it very susceptible to revenge killers such as Mega Glalie, Sneasel, and Flygon but against defensive teams are when Gallade can really shine and come out on top which is why I feel it warrants a raise as unlike Exploud, Gallade can play the role of a wallbreaker and a setup sweeper.

 

[tmacbalanced]

For an offensive team having a Spikes user that can come in with relative ease on Pokemon such as Emboar and Hitmonlee as well as Glalie to an extent and set up Spikes is pretty amazing and the fact that it can taunt Pokemon such as Omastar/Crustle leads as well as Bronzong is something you are grossly underrating while considering accelgor tends to get only 1 layer up or 2 maximum per game and can only come in on a free switch while Qwilfish can set up multiple times (and also has the option to lay Tspikes). Not to say that Accelgor is bad but Qwilfish is just 10 times more useful in a lot of matchups.

I wasn't underestimating Qwilfish in the slightest, in any of it's roles either. Qwilfish is a fantastic spiker. You misread what I said though, I was saying ss234 was underestimating Accelgor as a spiker. He said he was only good a suicide lead but, Punchshroom already proved that he can do more. I'm not saying Qwilfish is not better than Accelgor or the other way around. I'm not in that argument lol.

 

[-Tsunami-]

I never post here but hey, who cares bros.
LINOONE FOR D RANK. I don't know how this isn't at least D-rank right now. Cobalion was the biggest problem it had, and now it's gone. Outside of Tyrantrum, Steelix, Durant, and Tangrowth, Linoone can OHKO every single Pokemon in A- through S-rank at +6 (you can OHKO Tangrowth with Gunk Shot if you feel like running that move). Getting to +6 isn't even that difficult since it can set up on many defensive Pokemon that lack a phazing move relatively easily, especially since it can usually afford to run max HP or close to max because of its relatively high base 100 Speed stat, which is good enough to outspeed almost all of the Pokemon it needs to hit with Shadow Claw or Seed Bomb. Because it can run close to Max HP, it can also set up on some offensive Pokemon such as Choice Scarf Rotom-C locked into Thunderbolt, for example. Or hey, just run a Memento user. One supporting teammate with Dual Screens or Memento is all it really needs at most, and even that isn't needed. Stoutland is D-rank and it's literally a shittier Linoone if you don't have a Hippopotas on your team so I don't see the problem there. Linoone's definitely good enough for D-rank. The legend of Linoone lives on. #bopweouthere

 

[ChilliTacos]

Hi am I allow to nominate lapras or something or is it not allowed?

 

[ChilliTacos]

Lapras to C Rank.
Been using this wonderful mon for quite some time and I had interesting results. First of all Lapras Hp Stat is absolutely wonderful and its defenses are pretty good to making it pretty bulky. It's offensive stats however aren't that great so it will be hard to get some damage. Lapras has a great move which is Freeze Dry meaning it can beat opposing water types with it. It also gets acces to Curse, and Dragon Dance and can possibly become a bulky sweeper. Lapras has a horrible typing tho defensive wise. It also has a weakness to Stealth Rock which can wear it down pretty quickly. Any status can also cripple it.

Anyway Lapras does face competition from other water types like Clawitser and Alomolola (is that correct spelling?). But with the set down below it will definitely put a big chunk on them.


Loch Ness (Lapras) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 200 HP / 252 SpA / 56 Spe
Modest Nature
- Surf
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Freeze-Dry



EV EXPLANATION: 56 Speed evs to outspeed offensive tangrowth. 252+ Sp Atk to get the most amount of power. Rest in Hp to make it bulky and investing it in speed would be a waste because lapras speed isn't the best.


ITEM: Choice Specs Boost Lapras power so it can deal a heavy chunk to other pokes


Ability: Hydration is not needed for this set unless you are running a rain team. Shell Armor is pretty useless. Water Absorb is your ability of choice because if you predict correctly you can get some of our health back


MOVES: Hydro Pump is your main stab move and deals a lot of damage to any poke that does not resist it. Freeze Dry is your ice STAB move that hits water types and Flygon which is absolutely amazing right now. Ice Beam is for bulky Grass type pokes like Amoongus and Surf is another water type STAB move with pefect accuracy that you can go for if you dont really want to miss a hydro pump.


Anyways Lapras is a cool mon and is a overall good poke in the ru tier n.n

 

[tehy]

Lapras to C Rank.
Been using this wonderful mon for quite some time and I had interesting results. First of all Lapras Hp Stat is absolutely wonderful and its defenses are pretty good to making it pretty bulky. It's offensive stats however aren't that great so it will be hard to get some damage. Lapras has a great move which is Freeze Dry meaning it can beat opposing water types with it. It also gets acces to Curse, and Dragon Dance and can possibly become a bulky sweeper. Lapras has a horrible typing tho defensive wise. It also has a weakness to Stealth Rock which can wear it down pretty quickly. Any status can also cripple it.

Anyway Lapras does face competition from other water types like Clawitser and Alomolola (is that correct spelling?). But with the set down below it will definitely put a big chunk on them.


Loch Ness (Lapras) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 206 HP / 252 SpA / 50 Spe
Modest Nature
- Psychic
- Hydro Pump
- Thunderbolt/Thunder
- Freeze-Dry



EV EXPLANATION: 50 Speed evs to outspeed offensive tangrowth. 252+ Sp Atk to get the most amount of power. Rest in Hp to make it bulky and investing it in speed would be a waste because lapras speed isn't the best.


ITEM: Choice Specs Boost Lapras power so it can deal a heavy chunk to other pokes


Ability: Hydration is not needed for this set unless you are running a rain team. Shell Armor is pretty useless. Water Absorb is your ability of choice because if you predict correctly you can get some of our health back


MOVES: Hydro Pump is your main stab move and deals a lot of damage to any poke that does not resist it. Freeze Dry is your ice STAB move that hits water types and Flygon which is absolutely amazing right now. You can use Thunder if your running a rain team. In the case that you are not running a rain team i suggest you use thunderbolt, or thunder if you don't mind the accuracy.


Anyways Lapras is a cool mon and is a overall good poke in the ru tier n.n

this does seem like a pretty dangerous set, as a man who has no Freeze Dry resists on his team. Still, what Pokemon does this beat or switch into on offense? does it really have enough power to get the KOes it needs? (especially relevant as SR weakness puts it on a timer and all). Also, what is Psychic for, and similarly what is Thunderbolt for? It seems like both of those are taken care of by Freeze Dry for the most part, and you could drop at least one of them for Scald / Ice Beam (possibly both).

you've also got an extra 2 EVs in Hp and in Speed, which means you're wasting a stat point; I suggest you remedy this.

 

[rau]

Loch Ness (Lapras) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 206 HP / 252 SpA / 50 Spe
Modest Nature
- Psychic
- Hydro Pump
- Thunderbolt/Thunder
- Freeze-Dry

206 and 50 arent divisible by 4, so you can still put 1 more point.

e: Seconding Tehy on the fact that Thunderbolt doesnt seem to fit well on the set since Freeze Dry already hits Flying and Water Types, while getting STAB. Even in rain, Freeze Dry would still be more reliable with Thunder due to the almost equal damage.

 

[ManOfMany]

I actually have been using Lapras too, although a completely different set, which I believe is more effective. Thunderbolt offers absolutely no super-effective coverage so there is no reason to use it, however Ice Beam does offer more power than Freeze Dry which is very useful for bulkier grass types like Amoonguss and Tangrowth. Meanwhile, Ice Shard picks off Flygon as well as weakened Scarf-Rotom and silly Jolteons who try to switch into Hydro Pump. 56 Speed EVs let you outspeed Offensive Tangrowth. A Choice Specs set is also viable though, if you want to beat Aromatisse and Registeel.

Lapras @ Expert Belt/Icicle Plate
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 200 HP / 252 SpA / 56 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Freeze-Dry
- Ice Shard

I do believe it deserves a ranking place in at least C-. Lapras beats an incredible amount of the metagame in 1v1 situations due to its fantastic super-effective coverage and incredible 130/80/95 bulk. It beats Houndoom, easily beats Glalie, tanks anything Flygon can throw at it while KOing back, outspeeds and KOs Tangrowth, outspeeds and KOs Camerupt, OHKOes Rhyperior, 2HKOs both Jellicent and Alomomola, switches in on Seismitoad easily while KOing it with Freeze Dry, 2HKOs Togetic, and beats Mega Steelix while easily tanking Earthquake. That's a whole lot of top tier mons. Yeah, it is outsped by a bunch of stuff so it isn't hard to revenge kill with Hitmonlee or Jolteon, but Lapras is still a massive threat to so many balanced cores and a very nice addition to teams wanting a Mega Glalie counter while also something that beats the Grass + Water cores of Tangrowth and Sunfish/Jellicent.

Overall, Lapras fits very well in the RU metagame, certainly more so than in NU. It may have flaws, but the incredible amount of bulky offensive threats it beats in 1v1 situations is more than enough for a low rank.

Replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ru-253475593
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ru-253465124

Calcs

0- Atk Expert Belt Lapras Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flygon: 202-235 (67.1 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Flygon Outrage vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Lapras: 295-348 (65.4 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Flygon Earthquake vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Lapras: 180-213 (39.9 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Lapras: 218-257 (48.3 - 56.9%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Expert Belt Lapras Ice Beam vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Tangrowth: 504-593 (134.7 - 158.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Rotom-C Thunderbolt vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Lapras: 266-314 (58.9 - 69.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Expert Belt Lapras Freeze-Dry vs. 120 HP / 252+ SpD Alomomola: 259-305 (51.6 - 60.8%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Expert Belt Lapras Freeze-Dry vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 218-259 (54 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Mega Steelix Earthquake vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Lapras: 159-187 (35.2 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Expert Belt Lapras Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Steelix: 262-312 (74 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[citro]

hello. To me, Combusken deserves to be ranked at least C. The special set, which is the focus of this post (Fire Blast / Focus Blast / Protect / Baton Pass with Eviolite or Life Orb) isn't immensely bulky since we are likely investing some EVs into SpA but one-on-one (with little/no prior damage) it is a decent answer to non-EQ (aka spikes) Mega-Glalie, Sneasel, Houndoom, Durant, and Tangrowth among offensive pokemon, and defensive pokemon that it can hit Super Effectively. Unlike other sweepers, however, it has the option of passing out its boosts to teammates, for example you can BP to Tangrowth or Clawitzer on defensive Water-types. Pokemon like the aforementioned, Glalie, Scrafty, and others become incredibly threatening at +2 or +3 speed which is easy to obtain with Protect and/or a forced switch.

Here is a replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ru-254240400. sorry that my opponent isn't the best, but I'm going to bed soon and I don't want to get another

 

[P is For Penguin]

I actually have been using Lapras too, although a completely different set, which I believe is more effective. Thunderbolt offers absolutely no super-effective coverage so there is no reason to use it, however Ice Beam does offer more power than Freeze Dry which is very useful for bulkier grass types like Amoonguss and Tangrowth. Meanwhile, Ice Shard picks off Flygon as well as weakened Scarf-Rotom and silly Jolteons who try to switch into Hydro Pump. 56 Speed EVs let you outspeed Offensive Tangrowth. A Choice Specs set is also viable though, if you want to beat Aromatisse and Registeel.

Lapras @ Expert Belt/Icicle Plate
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 200 HP / 252 SpA / 56 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Freeze-Dry
- Ice Shard

I do believe it deserves a ranking place in at least C-. Lapras beats an incredible amount of the metagame in 1v1 situations due to its fantastic super-effective coverage and incredible 130/80/95 bulk. It beats Houndoom, easily beats Glalie, tanks anything Flygon can throw at it while KOing back, outspeeds and KOs Tangrowth, outspeeds and KOs Camerupt, OHKOes Rhyperior, 2HKOs both Jellicent and Alomomola, switches in on Seismitoad easily while KOing it with Freeze Dry, 2HKOs Togetic, and beats Mega Steelix while easily tanking Earthquake. That's a whole lot of top tier mons. Yeah, it is outsped by a bunch of stuff so it isn't hard to revenge kill with Hitmonlee or Jolteon, but Lapras is still a massive threat to so many balanced cores and a very nice addition to teams wanting a Mega Glalie counter while also something that beats the Grass + Water cores of Tangrowth and Sunfish/Jellicent.

Overall, Lapras fits very well in the RU metagame, certainly more so than in NU. It may have flaws, but the incredible amount of bulky offensive threats it beats in 1v1 situations is more than enough for a low rank.

Replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ru-253475593
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ru-253465124

Calcs

0- Atk Expert Belt Lapras Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flygon: 202-235 (67.1 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Flygon Outrage vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Lapras: 295-348 (65.4 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Flygon Earthquake vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Lapras: 180-213 (39.9 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Lapras: 218-257 (48.3 - 56.9%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Expert Belt Lapras Ice Beam vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Tangrowth: 504-593 (134.7 - 158.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Rotom-C Thunderbolt vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Lapras: 266-314 (58.9 - 69.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Expert Belt Lapras Freeze-Dry vs. 120 HP / 252+ SpD Alomomola: 259-305 (51.6 - 60.8%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Expert Belt Lapras Freeze-Dry vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 218-259 (54 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Mega Steelix Earthquake vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Lapras: 159-187 (35.2 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Expert Belt Lapras Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Steelix: 262-312 (74 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Lapras: 289-341 (64 - 75.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Lapras: 211-250 (46.7 - 55.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

16+ Atk Rhyperior Stone Edge vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Lapras: 386-456 (85.5 - 101.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

it cant switch into doom really well, rhyperior OHKO's it as well.

The main problem lapras has is being slow + having a SR weakness which limits its longevity. Even if it beats 1/2 of the top tier mons it still loses to the other half. Anyway i really dont have a problem with it being C- at most. It could fill D rank tho.

 

[ChilliTacos]

this does seem like a pretty dangerous set, as a man who has no Freeze Dry resists on his team. Still, what Pokemon does this beat or switch into on offense? does it really have enough power to get the KOes it needs? (especially relevant as SR weakness puts it on a timer and all). Also, what is Psychic for, and similarly what is Thunderbolt for? It seems like both of those are taken care of by Freeze Dry for the most part, and you could drop at least one of them for Scald / Ice Beam (possibly both).

you've also got an extra 2 EVs in Hp and in Speed, which means you're wasting a stat point; I suggest you remedy this.

Hi. Fixed the things that you pointed out. I actually only use Psychic for poison types like weezing and i see loads of them lately don't know why. And lapras doesnt get scald so changed tbolt for surf. Lapras can get kos most of the time if it doesn't it severally weakens them and another teammate can come in and finish it off.