I got sleep, can you tell?
U-Turn Out, with secondary mentions of
Celever:
U-Turn Out said:
i already mentioned why I think acidphoenix is a good lynch. Yeti has pointed out about him not really having a partner, but I feel like at this point of the game the scum aren't really trying to defend one another, but just cast a suspicion on someone else so his partner can go hide in the shadows again, which I was thinking DLE was doing. As jumpluff mentioned before, acidphoenix is the safest lynch and I feel the same way.
This is backwards logic. This assumes that Da Letter El is scum and acidphoenix is probably his partner, but allows for the possibility that Celever etc. is his partner. Instead your proposition for the lynch is that we lynch acidphoenix, who has been repeatedly noted to have multiple relations of that type (along with UncleSam and myself) not Da Letter El, the person who in this scenario is your major premise as scum. Elaborate, please?
U-Turn Out said:
Celever...he just seems to be playing strange. I admit that some of this is gut, but he's picking on the helpless players (gale and ultrasplot earlier) and trying to push a lynch on them. I also feel like he's trying to hang low this day; I appreciate the post he made, but after jumpluff and I subbed in he didn't really try to spark discussion; I think he was trying to wait and see if he can get a lynch off of either of us and seeing our responses to other people. As I said, it's mostly gut, but looking at the scum teams possible I think that he's probably on one of them. Also find it fascinating, as other people stated, how he completely ignored me in his recent post that he made.
Celever care to explain?
Seconded, although I do not think he is trying to lynch me at all. I think he is not trying to lynch anyone actively. I think he is fine with you being lynched, though. I think he is probably less okay with DLE or acidphoenix being lynched based on the timing of his posts. And I quote from
this post,
acidphoenix - decent scum
DLE - decent scum
US - seriously I have a null read on US. I know how capable he is at manipulating, but actually when he's scum I tend to read him townier than when he's town, and rn my gut says he's playing like mafia but there's nothing concrete about it. leaning town. Really it's a null read, but if I had a gun held to my head and I had to say one or the other, it would be town.
Pokeguy - Strongest Town Read in game (maybe replaced by jumpluff now though, making Pokeguy 2nd place)
Right now I most want to lynch UltrasPlot, of course.
There has been zero attempt from Celever to actually push this UltrasPlot (rssp1?) lynch, even though Yeti provided in two instances arguments he could have latched onto to propose an UltrasPlot lynch. In context of him completely ignoring you, this is stupid as hell because the lynch is shifting from DLE to you. I will acknowledge in fairness that that post looks like it was composed on the go rather than from a pre-built conclusion due to the absence of an initial UltrasPlot scumread, and I never posted about UltrasPlot like I intended to and was asked, but Yeti absolutely did, twice.
I want people to have their attention on others because I'm definitely not going to let people who have posted before and suddenly disappear (celever and acid) pass this day. Best and most important discussion in the entire game, and they're just going to read it, and decide not to add anything? That's what I think they're doing right now, and I feel like people should pressure those who aren't really trying to do anything to post.
This doesn't fly when you're being threatened with a lynch for similar reasons, especially when the players you subbed in for did the exact same thing. By the same logic, why should I let you evade my questions when I have clearly delineated my points against you? And I quote,
I would appreciate it if you could clarify what you are implying with my interactions with Celever; the reason I put him with DLE and not UncleSam in that post was because 1. The post was more about DLE and the possiblities that he could be and 2. He hasn't been really buddying anyone recently (tbf it's possible it's because he isn't too active) , but I felt like DLE was trying to cover him up.
The bolded part, 'but I felt like DLE was trying to cover [Celever] up' is a clear contradiction with your suggestion that DLE was covering up
acidphoenix, which I laid out at the start of this post, as well as your original read about Celever buddying with
UncleSam.
Anyway, I will reiterate as logically as possible what I wrote, although it is all readable
here for anyone else who would like to evaluate whether I clearly laid out my points or not as I developed them (CTRL-F for Celever).
- U-turn Out's original reads post placed an ambivalent town/scumread on Celever based on several points, the primary of which are a) buddying with UncleSam b) defensiveness c) evasiveness and feigning helpfulness d) aggression towards users e) contribution level
- It also placed a stronger scumread on PokeguyNXB for inactivity and unwillingness to contribute when actually present
- It placed the strongest scumread on acidphoenix for bandwagoning Gale and Haunted Diamond and inactivity, and the strongest town read on Da Letter El
- When responding to Da Letter El's attack on him, U-turn Out appealed to DLE's other scumreads by asking what happened to Celever and acidphoenix, scumreads DLE had also made
- As of U-turn Out's most recent statements, acidphoenix and PokeguyNXB were U-turn Out's strongest scumreads, therefore to omit PokeguyNXB suggested deflection onto Celever rather than an attempt to actually guide the lynch in preferred direction or defend themselves
- The post consequently came across as disingenuous, especially since the other part of the post was about who would make the best lynch and was entirely disparate from the attempt to redirect Da Letter El towards Celever and acidphoenix
- The defensiveness and refusal to defend self (what UncleSam identified as 'WHY MEEE?' behaviour) is neither town or scum behaviour but simply the manifestation of pressured players in an experience differential. However, a town player in such a situation typically will redirect to their own scumreads and not appeal to the biases of the person attacking them. A scum player is happy for whomever to be lynched as long as it's not them (although I think whoever acidphoenix's partner is today is happy to lynch them if forced to)
- There was a clear scumslip in response to Da Letter El's comment that the best lynch would be U-Turn Out because the flip would yield lots of information, namely that if U-Turn Out was mafia I would become #1 suspect for their partner and if U-Turn Out was town then suspicion would fall on Sam and Celever due to absence of scumreads in the lynch
- I disputed DLE's comment in a previous post because I found the logic objectionable in the listed case that U-Turn Out could be town, especially in the context that I felt DLE was trying to subtly build up suspicion on me, and remarked that the flip was accordingly not very useful by DLE's own comments because the only person it would shed any light on is me
- U-Turn Out cited my argument by 'We really don't get much info from my flip at all; jumpluff is the only person who would be affected by my flip as you say they would be my partner if I was mafia.'
- I observed that the bolded part was a very pronounced scumslip as it a) directly assumes the case U-Turn Out flips mafia, which is not the default assumption for someone who knows they are town and would be mislynched b) ignores the case U-Turn Out flips town, in which case U-Turn Out should have opinions on if there were any scum who were culprits directly or indirectly for the mislynch
- The evidence underlying my point b) in the line above is that U-Turn Out made cases for the flips of Celever and acidphoenix (if one flips scum, DLE is their partner), but did not make a case for their own flip as town
- That flip logic ignores U-Turn Out's previous points that UncleSam and Celever were buddying.
Therefore, I concluded the post was coming purely from a desire not to be lynched, and not a desire to correctly redirect the lynch. A remotely rational town player is not happy for anyone to be lynched but them when a mislynch places the town numbers at equal with the mafia numbers. That scenario 'works', but at the most basic level of good play, not if there are people who you can make a correct case for to be lynched (which UTO failed to do when responding to Da Letter El, and only did when responding to UncleSam and myself). A town player wants to defend themselves from the lynch adequately so that they are not mislynched, and also prevent mislynches onto other players, and provide useful information in the case they die, tendencies U-Turn Out had already previously identified as pro-town behaviour that their scumreads (Celever et al.) were not exhibiting and hence can be accountable for not doing in points of pressure.
In conclusion, U-Turn Out, your interactions with Celever are minimal and primarily suggest a desire for attention to return to them (or acidphoenix) off you rather than to establish any point about him. They are purely defensive in nature, something you have identified as scummy behaviour of Celever's yourself.
I've thought about the scum teams a while. If myself, DLE, and you aren't in any of the scum teams, it's probably pokeguy, celever, ultrasplot, and acid. I don't really believe that these are the four, it just seems so awkward. yeti + pluff could be possible, but I don't think that's likely. DLE fits well in the teams, and I've grown more suspicous of him. UncleSam, can you tell me why my post implies that DLE cannot be on the scum teams?
This is good and I am happy to hear it. I think it is important both to individually identify scummy play and to try to identify weird relationships or absences thereof between players. At this point in the game, process of elimination is valid from one's own PoV to attempt to identify likely scum. This post was far more internally consistent, although I'd like to hear US's response to your question since I can see both of your points (you explicitly identified which scumteam DLE could be on, but responded to DLE clearly and acknowledgedly as if he were town while he, from your PoV, aggressively started a mislynch on you). I would like to hear what you think is a more reasonable set of four scum than Pokeguy/Celever/UltrasPlot[rssp1]/acidphoenix though, since your only proposed list is, as you noted, clunky and inconsistent with your views on PokeguyNXB.
the reason I put him with DLE and not UncleSam in that post was because 1. The post was more about DLE and the possiblities that he could be
This sounds like defensiveness.
Those arguments that I listed were from DLE
Yes, my problem was explicitly that you used my argument to combat them. My argument only makes sense from my PoV. It makes no sense from yours because from your PoV you are not mafia. You are still ignoring the possibility you are town, which is.... really, really weird, to say the least. What would you advise if you are mislynched? What do you think that suggests about Da Letter El and UncleSam?
The reason I really haven't pushed PokeguyNXB as much as you thought I would was because 1. he was getting a sub and 2. I really didn't know about his irl circumstances that detailed; the fact that he requested to sub out makes me believe that everything he said about his circumstance was honest and that he was actually struggling to put a post simply because of time. I would also like to hear more from his sub before I make more comments on him.
Agreed, feel free to allow for this case in your set(s) of four scum if PokeguyNXB's ambiguity makes it too awkward.
Don't think I have anything else to say about that post, thank you for responding to me, but please actually respond to my points about you.
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I will try to make an updated and explicit reads post at some point. I am currently trying to work out the scum teams again because I am not sure where Celever fits into this.
