Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[Alfalfa]

I'd really like to know why is espeon still ranked, I'd say even xatu outclasses it as an offensive magic bouncer (let alone m-diancie) due to its immunity to eq and access to heat wave. this means xatu actually hits ferrothorn and skarm harder lol

This is the answer I got when I asked:

Espeon is ranked for role compression; it's an offensive Psychic with Magic Bounce that does not require the use of a Mega. It sure as hell isn't the best thing on the world but it at least does something some team builds will appreciate having.

Of course, I think that such a number of teams are probably so far and few between, especially since most hazard setters can exploit Espeon's meager physical bulk before they even attempt to set up anyways. Then again, D Rank is filled with a bunch of crappy Pokemon anyways, so I doubt it will matter.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

This is the answer I got when I asked:



Of course, I think that such a number of teams are probably so far and few between, especially since most hazard setters can exploit Espeon's meager physical bulk before they even attempt to set up anyways. Then again, D Rank is filled with a bunch of crappy Pokemon anyways, so I doubt it will matter.

i find an even bigger problem with espeon: it can't run fire + fighting coverage. iirc espy's job is normally to beat or at least weaken the sr setters to a point where they can no longer reliably set up sr. but when you can't run hp fire and hp fighting on the same set, you have severe problems. you can't hit tyranitar, heatran and ferrothorn reliably with one moveset. hp fire + grass knot is an interesting combination but it completely fails against tran. hp fighting + grass knot fails against ferro since it does like 50% and gyro ball severely hurts it (not to mention ferro can easily set up even at 50% due to its amazing typing, great bulk and leech seed). the fact that SpD skarm just laughs at espy no matter what it tries to do is not pretty either. this is a problem xatu doesn't have. (please don't kill me for advising offensive xatu > espy lol)

dual screen is just shit. mega shit. super ultra mega shit. it simply doesn't have the bulk to pull this off.

 

[Machi]

i find an even bigger problem with espeon: it can't run fire + fighting coverage. iirc espy's job is normally to beat or at least weaken the sr setters to a point where they can no longer reliably set up sr. but when you can't run hp fire and hp fighting on the same set, you have severe problems. you can't hit tyranitar, heatran and ferrothorn reliably with one moveset. hp fire + grass knot is an interesting combination but it completely fails against tran. hp fighting + grass knot fails against ferro since it does like 50% and gyro ball severely hurts it (not to mention ferro can easily set up even at 50% due to its amazing typing, great bulk and leech seed). the fact that SpD skarm just laughs at espy no matter what it tries to do is not pretty either. this is a problem xatu doesn't have. (please don't kill me for advising offensive xatu > espy lol)

dual screen is just shit. mega shit. super ultra mega shit. it simply doesn't have the bulk to pull this off.

Well Xatu's own defensive prowess actually comes from its fighting type more than psychic by giving it a better match up against things like Hippo/Ferro/Tank Chomp in so much that flying makes Xatu resist common grass/ground STAB that come from most setters -- with the added utility of a more reliable healing in roost (and even offsets SE attacks by removing the flying typing) and Thunder Wave to cripple offensive switch ins.

My gripe about offensive Espeon is that... I never found myself really caring for its offensive prowess since more or less there is a good chance I'll be switching out the next turn, which is what Xatu has over Espeon IMO in being able to generate more momentum with U-turn than baton pass. Since at the end of the day yes Espeon has offensive presence but often not enough by OU standards IMO, it won't hit hard enough for most part or necessarily a go to answer (even less so as it doesn't run any items to boost its offenses). I actually prefer Night Shade for most instances because it gives you a more reliable way of dealing damage without really caring for switch ins if you're simply aiming to whittle down X for OHKO range with another mon. Or I guess Heat Wave, if you have issues with Scizor/Ferro/Skarm but honestly I prefer Night Shade too since it at least hits Heatran (and it useful if you use a lure like say HP Ground MGard) or popping air balloon variants.

Honestly, I've never been that convinced by offensive Espeon as compared to well rocky helmet defensive Xatu, which I know at least is more capable to taking things head on like Ferrothorn or even being a fairly reliable answer to Klefki. I've just never seen Espeon's offensive prowess matter much since I don't see it hitting hard enough by OU standards, and that you're more than likely switching out often.

 

[BlazeLatias]

wanted to say my thoughts on two of the noms for scizor n torn.

Scizor to S Rank

I really like this thing. Scizor-mega is probably the best A+ rank and for a very obvious reason. Hes bulky and hard to kill. He IS however checked rather easy but even then ive seen scizor break past some of his checks with exstreme ease like Superpower for hitting stuff like tran and so on. Its also pretty easy for m scizor to set up sds thanks to his typing and bulk. The thing is as i said his checks can be bypassed as stuff like keldeo,tran,rotom all of those are rather easy to weaken overtime to the point where they can be picked off with knock off or bp or any other coverage move. Really consistant mon becuase of how well it does its job as a cleaner while also checking a huge portion of the meta but i feel like even with all of this said hes checked rather easy to be s rank. Of course i still think he should rise as he can get past most of his checks eventualy.

Torn-T to s rank

This thing is the most annoying mon in ou S rank should seem pretty obvious by now. His lo and AV sets are such a huge problem for some teams to handle and combine that with regens recovery and you got one annoying mon lol. Torns speed is great in this meta being outsped by weavile and a few select megas and with the meta becoming more in favour of offense (thanks hoopa-U) Torn remains a huge threat. Not to mention Mono flying+regen makes torn really splashable with no Opportunity cost. coverage wise torn has a lot of option like hp ice,grass knot,super power/focus blast, Hurricane,Knock off,u turn etc as well as some nice utility in taunt,knock off must i say more? Torn definetly deserves s rank with that said.

 

[Lord Xen III]

Weavile and kyu-b are undoubtedly better ice types and that's why they are ranked higher. Ground STAB is a really nice thing to have though and priority is another thing it has over kyu-b. Not gonna go into too much detail but if you use Mamoswine on a reasonably well built team its pretty clear that it is more of a threat than the things in B rank.

As for Torn I think the outlasting its checks thing is exaggerated. Firstly while it "doesn't care" about SR due to Regenerator, at the same time its recovery is severely limited by it. Switching into rocks and attacks assures it'll be worn down over time. U-turning out doesn't always yield recovery either when you consider the popularity of chomp and ferro and how easy it is to switch in on a predicted U-turn. Torn also can have its recovery limited by pursuit a la weavile or ttar if lacking superpower which AV sets often do. Status conditions still wear it down as well. Granted I'm listing off all the things that limit its recovery and not discussing how in some matches it seems to never die. But its longevity can still be accounted for in building and I think some of these points were overlooked in terms of its effectiveness.

Regarding Mega Scizor, I think you are missing some points Lord Xen III.

Yes it does not pressure its checks like those other mons but its also more difficult to get rid of in general than Altaria or Charizard (not Clefable). Its also a better cleaner due to priority, whereas zard and alt can still be picked off by fast scarfers and other priority. I wouldn't really say it requires much more support than those two while it certainly provides more team support than Zard and offensive Altaria as well IMO.

Being walled by common balance mons isn't a big deal when balance is wildly overrated anyway with this metagame full of wall and stall breakers. You can call that team support if you like but every team should have stall or wallbreakers similar to hazard removal so I wouldn't place its level of support as greater than zard x.

Maybe its not S worthy but its damn close and offensive sets are actually stupidly strong and under prepared for

Dont get me wrong, Mega Scizor is amazing at what it does and more than derserves A+ . Its a bulky mon/wall with reliable recovery, plenty of useful resists with only one weakness (which is removed somewhat when its placed on rain), that has one things bulky mons wish they could have, the ability to boost their offensive presence. Yes Mega Scizor is similar to Mega Altaria in that they blanket check a large portion of the metagame defensively. Clefable does this as well, and then we have Zard x who does it offensively. Mega alt and clefable are kind of unique in that thanks to their coverage and fairy stab they also blanket check the meta offensively. So in games when i use mega alt, its super easy to come in on top threats, and then dragon dance and you have a mon on your tail that has speed, bulk, and power. Char x doesn't quite have the same defensive utility as the 3 other mons in question, but its a great electric check and steel check and ' its so destructive due to the power of flare blitz to the point where this thing doesn't have reliable checks. I mean lets look at checks you can fit to the current S ranks on offense ( i won't go into clefable since we have a clearer understanding on why thats pretty annoying to deal with) which the meta is shifting too at this point. For Zard X its Azumarill Mega alt and Lando t, and for mega alt its pretty much Mega Metagross and Scizor mainly. Zard x can 2hko some Azumarill , Lando t, and Mega Altaria variants with flare blitz and/or cripple them with wisp sets, then Metagross can lose to plus one Alt with prior damage and fire blast does a hell of lot to Scizor. With Scizor, it has far more checks that we have listed and these checks are reliable because Mega Scizor does not have much variance in its movesets.

Sure , as Dancers with average starting speed they are more prone to revenge kills by Scarfers than Scizor is who mainly relies on bullet punch, the problem is most of the things that would stop Scizor wouldn't be caring much about a +2 bullet punch meanwhile the scarfed revenge killers to Alt and Zard x most likely aren't switchins. In other words, in practice i find it easier to counterplay Scizor then it is Zard x and Mega Altaria to the point where they should be separated a sub rank since i think S ranks should have similarly low levels of counterplay. Mega Scizor is a mon that can clean every play style, but it only does it late game and as such is not as immediately threatening or consistent against all types of teams like the other S ranks are since it has so many reliable answers that exist on every play style. Yes balance is on the decline and there are breakers who fit well with Mega Scizor to deal with them yes, but it still needs the support in breaking them because its simply not self sufficient as the other S megas and Clefable are and as a result they find themselves able to break through more scenarios on their own. In other words, Mega Scizor brings an absurd amount of support to its team but also kind of expects a lot of the same support back, and i feel that the current S ranks are more of a full package in that they provide that support and don't ask for much else in return and basically carry their weight when they face roadblocks. As such It shouldn't be ranked higher than stuff like Mega Lopunny, Azumarill, and Keldeo. Mega Lopunny is an awkard spot in that almost all of its checks bar Bulky chomp and Mega Scizor are unviable on offensive teams, but they are abundant on stall and balance teams. But because of this it demolishes offense and is very annoying to deal with for that particular play style. Even then , thanks to hitting decently hard with high base power stabs and two free slots for stuff like pup and encore it can easily take advantage of the relatively passive mons that otherwise wall it on slower teams. Keldeo is also threatening to all the play styles but it also has a similar problem of having too many reliable checks, wherein its coverage moves are too weak for them, but scald burns are the main thing that really pressure its switchins. Azumarill has limited checks, as many of its checks are only able to deal with one of its sets similar to Zard X. So it has the same problem that Mega Altaria in that its only reliable switchin takes up a mega slot. Azumarill 's problem is that its speed leaves it taken advantage of by some the things it ideally should be able to beat and aqua jet is not always gonna save you. Notice that the mons Im comparing it to aren't all that comparable in the sense that they do different things for their teams, but its a point of reference because all the mons i have mentioned have fluctuated between S and A+ in the past and have been candidates themselves, but the majority of them have flaws that will always keep them A+ unless a significant meta change happens, and i can tell you that they more often or not have been overall more difficult to deal with because their move pool and coverage messes with their checks far more than Scizor does.

 

[DennisEG]

About Mega Zor and Torn-T to S rank, I'm really not agree with this, yes they're really good in the current metagame. Speaking of Torn-T is capable that check a lot of the Specials threats in the metagame and outspeed them due to his incredible base speed hitting 375 which for OU it is a based speed only outspeeded without boost for Weavile which either way Torn-t isnt staying in against this monster. Check a few gengar are running around, Kazam, Lati@s to extend, Keldeo all this are offensive threat that are checked by AV Torn-T and put a lot of pressure in the opponent fearing Knock or Hurricane confuse hax ( Ofc if it hit). And in Scizor Case for what i've seen recently in ladder people are running, Bulky SD or Bulky Defog so the fast Jolly Scizor is rare now that means Scizor have a few check very common on every team right now such as Rotom-W, Hetran, Bulky Talon, that speaking about offensive set and defensively scizor doesn't put enough pressure to be a threat at all.
So in conclusion this pokemon have a few common checks (Rotom-W check both) in the current metagame, could be annoying but that doesn't mean they should be S rank imho.

 

[EternalSnowman]

The two noms for Torn-T and Mega Zor to S rank don't really convince me.

M-Zor lots of people have posted for and against it so I won't get into detail, but essentially it is a very good A+ mon, but with M-Metagross just dropping, I can't see M-Zor being a subrank higher. That said, M-Zor suffers a lot from being unable to get past the mons it is unable to get past. Unlike the other mons in S it has a large amount of checks and counters.

Torn-T also suffers problems, while AV is used to check a majority of the meta, you face problems when facing Electrics like Raikou and Thundy, if you are using Torn-T as your defensive option. It's natural bulk is lackluster and depends on Regenerator a lot, so denying it Regenerator can end its life very early in the game. It also depends on Hurricane to check what it needs to... which kind of sucks.

 

[Kutscher]

does anyone have the regular kyurem's replays? i'm curious about it.

 

[ChinChinLives]

Looking through the D ranks, I noticed that Mienshao was on the list. I don't know if Mienshao really deserves a D rank, since moves like Fake out, U-turn, Hi kick Jump... (Not to mention the occasional Regenerator ability). It's offensive stats are great, and not only that, but it has a more-than-decent movepool. If used correctly, Mienshao could weaken a team that doesn't rely on held items. I do agree that Mienshao's weak defense can definitely put it in a sticky situation against powerhouse teams, but if a strategic trainer can used Mienshao's U-turn to his/her advantage, then Mienshao could definitely do some damage. But even so, I see why Mienshao was put on the D ranks. Depending on what sort of team you're going against, defense is important. And even though Mienshao's attack and speed isn't all that bad, the low defense definitely drags the pokemon's performance down a significant bit. But I guess if you use Mienshao in the right way, you could definitely get some good use out of him. Using him in double battles or multi battles, for example. This could give you a chance for the other pokemon on your team to set up some decent defense like light screen. But yeah, overrated and horribly weak to most moves, Mienshao doesn't really belong high up on the ranks.

D rank is really low. He's not overrated in the slightest. He forces a lot of switches with reckless hjk and generates momentum off of it with a strong u turn. It's actually gotten a lot better because it forces hoopa out and gets momentum off of it no matter what.

 

[Finchinator]

wanted to say my thoughts on two of the noms for scizor n torn.

Scizor to S Rank

I really like this thing. Scizor-mega is probably the best A+ rank and for a very obvious reason. Hes bulky and hard to kill. He IS however checked rather easy but even then ive seen scizor break past some of his checks with exstreme ease like Superpower for hitting stuff like tran and so on. Its also pretty easy for m scizor to set up sds thanks to his typing and bulk. The thing is as i said his checks can be bypassed as stuff like keldeo,tran,rotom all of those are rather easy to weaken overtime to the point where they can be picked off with knock off or bp or any other coverage move. Really consistant mon becuase of how well it does its job as a cleaner while also checking a huge portion of the meta but i feel like even with all of this said hes checked rather easy to be s rank. Of course i still think he should rise as he can get past most of his checks eventualy.

Going to have to disagree with this nomination. Mega Scizor is a very 'splashable' pokemon and not much can match it in terms of defensive utility, but S rank is for pokemon that define the current metagame and either are the most potent threats or the most challenging to consistently deal with in the tier. Let's go through all three of the S Ranked pokemon right now:

1) Mega Altaria - It has a handful of checks to each variant, but there are hardly any universal checks and it can easily run mixed, dd eq, dd heal bell, etc. without much support necessary (besides the occasional magnezone) and the more offensive variants lack many switch-ins. I'd say this is the weakest of all three S right now, but even then it can still set up on a lot of things thanks to great natural bulk + typing upon mega evolving, sweep through unprepared teams (a lot of teams are unprepared for one variant or another) often, and provide you with team support/defensive utility depending upon the set and team. I would say that it's not much more "viable" or better than mega scizor at the moment, but if I had to pick one it'd be Altaria by a bit. With that said, I still think it's the weakest S right now.

2) Mega Charizard X - It's amazing. It can run dd and wisp sets that are consistently effective, especially with a lure or some support. It has nice natural bulk and it hits very hard with flare blitz upon mega evolving so that there aren't many switch ins and even things like Hippo are threatened to be 2hkod with minimal residual damage (not to mention, something like offensive wisp zard-x, which I find to be one of the better variants right now, can eventually beat Hippowdon almost all the time). Without going into too much detail or overhyping this thing too much, Zard-X is just really fucking good right now and despite it needing some support (throwing a Starmie or a Lati on a team isn't even too hard), it's a better overall or more "viable" pokemon than Scizor right now.

3) Clefable - Clef finds its way onto so many teams and that's because it's so good. Unlike the two above, Clef is primarily a defensive force, but the Calm Mind set and the support, sweeping, and defensive presence it presents a team with is unparalleled in the current metagame and with this niche being so widespread and practical, there is no disputing Clefable's placement in S right now or its viability being higher than Mega Scizor.

-----

Now let's look at Mega Scizor: Has a lot of use defensively and can run a couple sets (bulky sd with knock or uturn and offensive sd - not too big a fan of defog personally), but has a long list of counters which almost every team has at least 1-2 of and bulkier variants offer a lot of things switch-ins for not much cost (which nothing in S does bar Clefable, which is seen a lot more defensively and has more use than Mega Scizor in general, in my opinion). To cut to the point, it is obviously a top 5 mega in the tier, maybe even top 3, and it has a lot of uses, but it isn't quite good enough to fulfill the requirements for S rank and should remain in A+ when you look at it in comparison to the other S mons.

May post on Torn-T later.

 

[MrAldo]

Gonna share my thoughts about mega scizor as well, and I agree with Finchinator and many people that are against moving this up to S rank:

While mega scizor is easily one of the most if not the most splashable mon in terms of providing defensive utility while keeping impressive offensive presence, even if defensive, it just doesnt hold a candle with how terrifying the S ranks can be (being a bit dramatic but w/e). It is a great glue mon that can check a huge portion of physical attackers but it just cant get past its checks in any way and most are very solid in theory and in practice (offensive sd makes some checks a little shakier but they work efficiently enough, imo bulky sd mega scizor is pretty easy to check consistently).

Gotta go more in deep with the S rank comparison: Each of the S rank mons have ways of getting past or threatening/luring its checks one way of another. Mega Altaria invalidates the steel type checks with fire blast alone, it could run outrage/dragon STAB for mega venusaur and hit zards without taking chunks of damage. Mega Charizard X can just run will-o-wisp to lure bulky grounds and it its dragon dance set it just needs outrage and 3 attacks to invalidate its checks and stuff. Clefable can literally run anything, such an amazing support mon that can provide lots of things a team could need, etc.
Sadly, Mega Scizor doesnt have that luxury cause, while there are some variations on its set that could help mega scizor in certain situations, it is a rather linear mon in concept. Most movesets will include sd + bullet punch so you can play around that if necessary. With the 3 S ranks... sometimes you just dont know. Defog mega scizor is rather lackluster but not a bad set on its own, just a waste of mega scizor potential, but it works pretty well not gonna lie.

In the end I just dont see mega scizor to S rank right now, if ever. Fantastic mon, top A+ mon that provides a lot to a team but just enough to be S (please, nobody bring that S rank subdivision again, PLEASE)

Tornadus-Therian is that type of mon that is so amazing all the time but then you hate it when it misses the hurricane, while I dont mind having to run inaccurate options, it is incredibly annoying to rely on hurricane most of the time, your main STAB! Idk, dont have a strong opinion on tornadus-therian, is one of those mons that you love and hate. I could honestly see this mon on S rank given its mixture of offensive and defensive pivoting capabilities are unmatched, amazing speed tier and stuff. To be honest, some people should define what a good tornadus-therian check is cause it can chip damage from most of them and many dont have reliable recovery to patch that. In the end, if I had to make decision now, more inclined to see it in S rank but not so sold about it just yet. Discussion is important!

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

i don't see how a pokemon that has to rely on a 70% accurate move to do damage can be even considered to rise to S Rank. not to mention it fails to outspeed weavile and isn't that bulky on the physical side

 

[EternalSnowman]

I want to nominate Thundurus-T for B-. I think that it does very well in Rain teams and even outside of Rain. It's ability makes it a great stop to momentum and checks Thundurus-I relatively well. It runs an efficient Double Dancing set, or a Scarf Set. It has a very high base special attack with a relatively good movepool with the most notable pseudo BoltBeam. Overall it matches up to the potential of being a B- mon.

 

[Mur]

Although I've been loving Mzor throughout gen 6 and have thought of it as S at some points I unfortunately have to disagree with it moving up. I have to say though it is very, and I mean very, close imo. It is no doubt the premier steel type and finds it's way onto an ass load of builds despite it being a mega and checks a ton of the common threats in the meta along with providing a massive amount of roles in one slot. This and the raw stats plus typing make it one of the top treats and is one of the mons that you absolutely cannot be weak to. Unfortunately you will never be weak to Mzor because it's checks are just too common in the meta and this is the driving factor to me why it cannot join the league of S ranks in the tier. While this reason appears to be very small it impacts the line in which Mzor gets pushed over the edge greatly. Yeah you can wear them down and such but you are going to have to do this for literally every single game on multiple mons which just makes Mscizor a lot easier to handle than the other monsters that reside in S. Of course you have to wear down checks for anything in the game to win but for scizor it is just a lot more work than say zard x. Like 90% of the time zard needs like 1 mon, possibly 2 if the team is super prepared for zard-x, just weakened a little for zard to run through as opposed to scizor who needs 2 or possibly even 3 mons removed or severely crippled to clean up. This makes scizor just require a bit more support than the other mons at the top and therefore should be ranked under them. Again, it is a small reason but I find Mzor really close to the S rank level so these small things do impact it's viability compared to the other mons currently residing in S.

Since I probably explained it really weird tl:dr The meta is just a little to prepared for Mzor despite it being the premier mon for it's type and the massive amount of roles it can preform on many teams. As I've said Mzor is very close to that level imo and definitely has what it takes but it just needs a few meta shifts in it's favor to put it onto that level.

Not even gonna talk about torn because it could honestly go either way and I can't really make up my mind on it.

 

[Alfalfa]

To be honest, I think Hoopa-U deserves a rise to S Rank. Sure, it has flaws, but they are not that difficult to compensate for, especially since the reward value of utilizing Hoopa-U is so high. The sheer offensive diversity it possesses and the ability to just destroy literally close to every defensive core is not something I would see in A+ rank. Being vulnerable to revenge killing is indeed troublesome, but if you are not preparing for revenge killers like Pursuit trappers and priority users through the usage of teammates, that really is not Hoopa-U's fault, since literally every Pokemon, regardless of how overpowering it is, needs some form of support). Hoopa-U outspeeds almost every defensive Pokemon anyways, so its speed really is not as problematic as people make it out to be. Therefore, I nominate it for S Rank.

 

[Srn]

To be honest, I think Hoopa-U deserves a rise to S Rank. Sure, it has flaws, but they are not that difficult to compensate for, especially since the reward value of utilizing Hoopa-U is so high. The sheer offensive diversity it possesses and the ability to just destroy literally close to every defensive core is not something I would see in A+ rank. Being vulnerable to revenge killing is indeed troublesome, but if you are not preparing for revenge killers like Pursuit trappers and priority users through the usage of teammates, that really is not Hoopa-U's fault, since literally every Pokemon, regardless of how overpowering it is, needs some form of support). Hoopa-U outspeeds almost every defensive Pokemon anyways, so its speed really is not as problematic as people make it out to be. Therefore, I nominate it for S Rank.

Strongly oppose this nom ;]

You try to justify the flaw of it being revenge killed by pursuit trappers and priority users through team support (how the fuck does team support save you from pursuit) but it doesn't end there. Literally everything faster that's invested in the physical side will be killing it, they don't even have to be revenge killers. Yeah, team support can help check scarf rachi, but its pretty annoying for your team when kyu-b comes in on you and fusion bolts to kill.
Besides, look at the other S ranks. I'll skip clefable because its use is primarily defensive so revenge killing isn't its problem.

Mega altaria has dragon/fairy typing which is amazing defensively, and it has more than good bulk to back it up. It's weak to ice shard and bullet punch, but it also has reliable recovery and even refresh/heal bell to not be screwed by t-wave. It needs 2 dragon dances to outspeed even unboosted stuff tho, such as mega zam.

Mega char-x is dragon/fire which is pretty good defensively, resisting electric and being neutral to ice, as well as resisting fire, grass, bug, and steel, and isn't weak to any priority along with having roost. It's bulk is quite good and 100 base speed puts it above the entire unboosted speed tier, and even scarfers will need stab super effective moves to safely kill it. The only real problem is has with longevity is flare blitz cutting it down.

In comparison, hoopa-u is 159x easier to revenge kill.

 

[Alfalfa]

Strongly oppose this nom ;]

You try to justify the flaw of it being revenge killed by pursuit trappers and priority users through team support (how the fuck does team support save you from pursuit) but it doesn't end there. Literally everything faster that's invested in the physical side will be killing it, they don't even have to be revenge killers. Yeah, team support can help check scarf rachi, but its pretty annoying for your team when kyu-b comes in on you and fusion bolts to kill.
Besides, look at the other S ranks. I'll skip clefable because its use is primarily defensive so revenge killing isn't its problem.

Mega altaria has dragon/fairy typing which is amazing defensively, and it has more than good bulk to back it up. It's weak to ice shard and bullet punch, but it also has reliable recovery and even refresh/heal bell to not be screwed by t-wave. It needs 2 dragon dances to outspeed even unboosted stuff tho, such as mega zam.

Mega char-x is dragon/fire which is pretty good defensively, resisting electric and being neutral to ice, as well as resisting fire, grass, bug, and steel, and isn't weak to any priority along with having roost. It's bulk is quite good and 100 base speed puts it above the entire unboosted speed tier, and even scarfers will need stab super effective moves to safely kill it. The only real problem is has with longevity is flare blitz cutting it down.

In comparison, hoopa-u is 159x easier to revenge kill.

Mega Altaria isn't S Rank because it is difficult to revenge kill - it is S Rank because of its diversity. It isn't as difficult to revenge kill as you stated, as there are plenty of checks that pressurize Mega Altaria. You are right on Zard X, and it is the stronger S Rank between the two. The thing is- every mon has its flaws.

The issue with revenge killing arguments on Hoopa-U is that it only needs to be in for one or two turns at a time to do work effectively. Revenge killing it really is as big of an equation when it comes to handling it (outside of Pursuit trapping), as by the time you bring in the revenge killer, Hoopa-U will likely have taken out a mon or severely dented one, which it is supposed to do a couple of times throughout a match. You are addressing Hoopa-U as though it is supposed to sweep teams, which is not what it is supposed to do at all. I am nomming Hoopa-U for S Rank because its raw power and movepool, along with decent special bulk, grants it some significant diversity - whether it be Assault Vest, Life Orb (physical or mixed), or Choice Scarf, Hoopa-U's positive traits allow it to play a number of different roles effectively. Sure, it is not that difficult for a faster Pokemon to take it out, but if you are letting Hoopa-U be revenge killed before you even utilize it in a match (outside of like Pursuit), then that it your fault that you are not using it correctly.

 

[MegaStarUniverse]

Heres what i think of the nominations of M-Scizor and Torn-T.

Tornadus-T is a a very good pokemon with amazing speed , good offensive presence . good defensive Pivot , Great ability , good typing , Amazing Movepool , good stats. Just Amazing. its AV set can switch into a lot of things including Gengar which is amazing and Latios , keldeo , Starmie , latias , Venusaur , Alakazam , Serperior , Volcarona , etc and threaten them out with U-turn , Knock off , Hurricane , etc. and U-Turn gives a lot of momentum. its a very hard set to take down unless you have a well played weavile. Torn-T has a very good movepool as stated earlier and can run Hurricane , Superpower , knock off , u-turn , focus blast , heat wave , Taunt , Psychic , Sludge Wave or Bomb , Grass knot , Hp ice , Dark Pulse , Crunch , Etc. Its slashable on almost any team and you can run you moves need or want depending on your team needs. Of course it spams knock off and u-turn most of the time giving utility and Momentum to your team. The Life orb set is a tiny bit underrated imo mainly due to the fact people keep saying " Hurricane Misses so much!" but lets look past this and realize that this set can actually go through teams due to its power , coverage , unpredictability, and speed. I feel like the Hurricane misses is its only noticeable flaw. Rocks are not a big enough reason to keep it out of S rank when it has regenerator and speed. Overall i think its ready for S rank and the " getting worn down" and " Hurricane Misses" arguments are not enough to keep it out of S. Another thing i saw is that the electric types give it trouble and im gonna have to disagree with that mainly due to the fact it can either just U-turn out, Knock off its item , Or nearly get KO'ed or weakened fast. Zone gets bopped by heat wave , superpower , or focus blast, Manectric gets worn down , Rotom gets worn down , Raikou gets Worn down and can get bopped by Superpower and Knock off. the only electric type that can take this thing constantly is Zapdos and your team should not be weak to zapdos lol. Tornadus-T for S Rank. "S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that hold a very high amount of viability"

Mega Scizor Is a Very good pokemon with Amazing Typing , Amazing Defensive presence , Good offensive presence , good movepool , good stats , good ability , and one of the top 5 Mega's in my opinion. Most of the time it runs SD + Bullet Punch which is great for cleaning and sweeping teams. it gets roost for recovery and has coverage moves namely Knock off and Superpower. it can also use its Bug Stab if needed. it can Run SD+Roost , SD + 3 Attacks, SD+Defog+Roost , Defog+Roost+U-turn , Roost + 3 Attacks and thats pretty much it i think. But i think it has a very Big flaw and i think a lot of people agree that its checks and switch ins are a problem for it. other then U-turn it can become set up bait or just bait for the teams pokemon to hurt something. I mean yeah its checks can be worn down and weakened but teams most of the time its not enough and M-Scizor does not bring and deal out enough offensive presence for these Checks and Switch ins Turning the Momentum. and understand that its checks are Dangerous namely being Heatran , Rotom , Thundy , talon , Char X , Char Y , keldeo , Manectric , Manaphy , and Zone can trap it. while you could argue that these can get worn down these pokemon are still extremely dangerous and can put work to your team which is bad. I think its just not good enough for S rank yet or ever. I say Keep Mega Scizor in A+ Rank. "A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that hold a high amount of viability"

 

[Lord Xen III]

Mega Altaria isn't S Rank because it is difficult to revenge kill - it is S Rank because of its diversity. It isn't as difficult to revenge kill as you stated, as there are plenty of checks that pressurize Mega Altaria. You are right on Zard X, and it is the stronger S Rank between the two. The thing is- every mon has its flaws.

The issue with revenge killing arguments on Hoopa-U is that it only needs to be in for one or two turns at a time to do work effectively. Revenge killing it really is as big of an equation when it comes to handling it (outside of Pursuit trapping), as by the time you bring in the revenge killer, Hoopa-U will likely have taken out a mon or severely dented one, which it is supposed to do a couple of times throughout a match. You are addressing Hoopa-U as though it is supposed to sweep teams, which is not what it is supposed to do at all. I am nomming Hoopa-U for S Rank because its raw power and movepool, along with decent special bulk, grants it some significant diversity - whether it be Assault Vest, Life Orb (physical or mixed), or Choice Scarf, Hoopa-U's positive traits allow it to play a number of different roles effectively. Sure, it is not that difficult for a faster Pokemon to take it out, but if you are letting Hoopa-U be revenge killed before you even utilize it in a match (outside of like Pursuit), then that it your fault that you are not using it correctly.

Srn is addressing hoopa U as if it is supposed to sweep teams because thats an expectation of an S rank mon. Every single S rank mon is currently hard to revenge kill for all types of teams and most of their revenge killers aren't switchins. Sure, it's a wall breaker and as such its expertise will be against bulkier teams, but that doesn't mean the only types of teams you will face will be bulky. A S rank should be consistent in its prowess versus every play style of play, and every wallbreaker that has rose to S in the past and were banned pressured team building alot because they also were great versus offense as much as they were good against bulky teams. Think about speed boost Blaziken, Mega Lucario, Mega gengar, Greninja, Mega Kangaskhan, Mega Mawile, RP lando I just to name a few. These mons were able to boost their speed and or had great starting speed/priority while being insane Wallbreakers and as such rightfully deserved S when they were allowed.

Mega Altaria is S because its diversity, power , bulk, and typing give it very little safe switchins and hard to revenge kill for all types of teams after a boost.

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 151-179 (49.1 - 58.3%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO.

Lol this isn't even bulky ddance Mega Altaria, and its not a guaranteed 2hko. The only thing that reliably revenges it is something like choice band Scizor, and thats not even considering cotton guard sets. Hoopa U however is unique in that its ridiculous mixed coverage and power give slow teams a hard time, but its not really a traditional balance breaker in the sense that Greninja was because with that low base 80 speed its going to be forced out alot by the faster balance mons and although it gets many 2hkoes alot of passive mons can 2hko it back since it has no resists. It has nothing to do with not using Hoopa correctly, it just puts extra risk on the user of it in battle and also doesn't add anything defensively to the cores its built around exposing you to more threats. Sure , you can fix this problem to a degree by running scarf but I'm not exactly convinced that its as threatening to slow teams because i personally want to run a LO with it ..., and it still doesn't help its bad matchup versus all priority in the tier. The one thing i will say about Hoopa U is that versus full stall ( which hasn't exactly been in favor this gen) its pretty disgusting even more so than previous wall breakers , i won't lie but I don't think that is enough to put something thats not consistent versus all the play styles in S.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

I see people cherry picking their S rank arguments, "a pokemon is S rank if it does X". But then the same person fails to address that said pokemon does Z and Y effectively, neglecting Z and Y to strengthen their argument by stating that said pokemon does not preform X effectively, an example would be nominating Clefable to drop because of it being a poor sweeper, when its real key is in support. My two cents on that front, however...

A pokemon is S rank, in my opinion, if it preforms one role very, very effectively, Genesect and Greninja, and to a lesser extent Charizard-X. Or when a pokemon preforms one role great, and preform multiple others good, Mega Altaria, Clefable. If a pokemon many roles good, but doesn't excel at one in particular it's honestly not S rank to me, it's good, but it can't excel into that next level because you can't run all of its sets at once, averaging it out at good.

On the topic of Scizor, Tornadus and Hoopa. Scizor is a pokemon that preforms one role great, and multiple others good. It's a sweeper that can provide support and defensive synergy. Mega Scizors presence in this metagame is iffy, I thought it should be A+ because there are such a large portion of pokemon who invalidates all of its sets but looking at it again, this is just one problem. In my eyes Scizor doesn't have another major problem, it doesn't have crippling Stealth rock weakness, it isn't entirely depended facing a specific playstyle to be effective nor does it give you bad synergy, quite the opposite infact. You give this thing team support to take advantage of its common switch ins and in tandem, they will ruin your opponents team. Scizor for S

Let me discuss Tornadus tomorrow, as well as Hoopa. If the decision is urget, Hoopa should be S rank but I really don't care, Hoopa is the best stallbreaker in the game, but at this point I don't think the council/community literally gives a crap about stall as they're already allowing Gothitelle. I mean seriously, this thing is crap when you dismiss the fact that stall is not viable... at all. It's a little frustrating for people who want to run stall that a community collectively agrees to dismiss an entire playstyle as "annoying" and then deems Gothitelle/Hoopa not completely and utterly broken. I hoped i'd make this short but for gods sake, Hoopa can run one set. Focus blast, NP, Dark pulse and Psyshock and it literally has Zero counters. There has never, ever, been a pokemon that can do that, but yet people dismiss it entirely because "it has shit speed and is frail af" /rant

 

[lllg17]

I'd like to ask why the description of B-rank is "their positive traits are generally on par with their negative traits" while the description of C rank is "Their positive traits are slightly hindered by their negative traits?" This doesn't make sense to me.
Hinder: make it difficult for (someone) to do something or for (something) to happen.
How can a Mon whose negative traits are balanced with their positive traits be better than a Mon who's usage is only sometimes made difficult? I feel like all of the descriptions need to be reworded. They are all too vague. To accurately rank Mons according to descriptions, we need accurate descriptions. This would make proposing a move or placement much easier.

 

[AM]

I'd like to ask why the description of B-rank is "their positive traits are generally on par with their negative traits" while the description of C rank is "Their positive traits are slightly hindered by their negative traits?" This doesn't make sense to me.
Hinder: make it difficult for (someone) to do something or for (something) to happen.
How can a Mon whose negative traits are balanced with their positive traits be better than a Mon who's usage is only sometimes made difficult? I feel like all of the descriptions need to be reworded. They are all too vague. To accurately rank Mons according to descriptions, we need accurate descriptions. This would make proposing a move or placement much easier.

Or just actually use the mon instead of definitions, that works to.

 

[Flamer]

God damn this place is becoming more cancerous after each nom. If you want my honest opinion and also the opinion of several tour player, the rankings are really quite accurate at the moment. Why do you guys constantly want stuff to move when the fact of the matter is, the upper rankings are pretty well on point to the current meta. Other than a few tidbits such as the odd drop in A-, there is literally no reason to make useless noms that go on for 5+ pages for things like Tornadus or Scizor to S. The Hoopa discussion is warranted I guess but even then its placement is pretty accurate.

If you really want to fix up something in the rankings, go check out the B-D ranks, thats a treasure trove for inaccurate placements. Just please stop arguing about which pokemons dick is slightly longer than the other and then use the vague descriptions to justify your point. If the metagame changes to something completely different then the upper ranks can be shifted but as it currently stands there is very little uncertainty in the upper rankings.

 

[lllg17]

Then why do we have descriptions in the first place if we don't use them?

 

[Magcargo]

I think that maybe limiting discussions to the lower ranks right now wouldn't be a bad idea. Like Flamer stated, most people are focusing to much on the upper ranks currently despite most of the mons there being set in stone. A huge number of lower ranking mons in my opinion need more discussion considering a large amount have been sitting in the same rank for a while despite several major changes in the metagame (Cresselia for example, is in C+, the same rank it was before Landorus was banned).