jumpluff
This is backwards logic. This assumes that Da Letter El is scum and acidphoenix is probably his partner, but allows for the possibility that Celever etc. is his partner. Instead your proposition for the lynch is that we lynch acidphoenix, who has been repeatedly noted to have multiple relations of that type (along with UncleSam and myself) not Da Letter El, the person who in this scenario is your major premise as scum. Elaborate, please?
The reason I think acidphoenix is a better lynch is because he's pretty much guaranteed scum. DLE, while most likely scum, is not guarenteed. DLE is at least somewhat contributing by sharing his thoughts (even though they are incorrect, some effort is put into them), and I feel like I would rather keep him than acidphoenix. I guess DLE's flip provides more information which could be helpful, but I personally I think that getting rid of acid and keeping DLE would be more beneficial.
Seconded, although I do not think he is trying to lynch me at all. I think he is not trying to lynch anyone actively. I think he is fine with you being lynched, though. I think he is probably less okay with DLE or acidphoenix being lynched based on the timing of his posts. And I quote from
this post,
There has been zero attempt from Celever to actually push this UltrasPlot (rssp1?) lynch, even though Yeti provided in two instances arguments he could have latched onto to propose an UltrasPlot lynch. In context of him completely ignoring you, this is stupid as hell because the lynch is shifting from DLE to you. I will acknowledge in fairness that that post looks like it was composed on the go rather than from a pre-built conclusion due to the absence of an initial UltrasPlot scumread, and I never posted about UltrasPlot like I intended to and was asked, but Yeti absolutely did, twice.
You raise a good point about Celever not really ignoring me. The problem is, he didn't really do anything against DLE's lynch as well, which makes me wonder what alignment he really is. I just can't tell what he's trying to do at this point.
This doesn't fly when you're being threatened with a lynch for similar reasons, especially when the players you subbed in for did the exact same thing. By the same logic, why should I let you evade my questions when I have clearly delineated my points against you? And I quote,
The bolded part, 'but I felt like DLE was trying to cover [Celever] up' is a clear contradiction with your suggestion that DLE was covering up acidphoenix, which I laid out at the start of this post, as well as your original read about Celever buddying with UncleSam.
What I meant is that they haven't posted anything (one post for acid, two posts for Celever). I have been responding to your questions, so I don't really understand the first part of this point. I still remember Celever buddying with UncleSam and will continue to keep that in my mind, but I have gotten more town vibes from UncleSam recently, and what DLE is doing to acidphoenix also applies to Celever as well. It's interesting how one of DLE and Celever has always been inactive when the other is posting; wonder if they are trying to coordinate something.
Anyway, I will reiterate as logically as possible what I wrote, although it is all readable
here for anyone else who would like to evaluate whether I clearly laid out my points or not as I developed them (CTRL-F for Celever).
- U-turn Out's original reads post placed an ambivalent town/scumread on Celever based on several points, the primary of which are a) buddying with UncleSam b) defensiveness c) evasiveness and feigning helpfulness d) aggression towards users e) contribution level
- It also placed a stronger scumread on PokeguyNXB for inactivity and unwillingness to contribute when actually present
- It placed the strongest scumread on acidphoenix for bandwagoning Gale and Haunted Diamond and inactivity, and the strongest town read on Da Letter El
- When responding to Da Letter El's attack on him, U-turn Out appealed to DLE's other scumreads by asking what happened to Celever and acidphoenix, scumreads DLE had also made
- As of U-turn Out's most recent statements, acidphoenix and PokeguyNXB were U-turn Out's strongest scumreads, therefore to omit PokeguyNXB suggested deflection onto Celever rather than an attempt to actually guide the lynch in preferred direction or defend themselves
- The post consequently came across as disingenuous, especially since the other part of the post was about who would make the best lynch and was entirely disparate from the attempt to redirect Da Letter El towards Celever and acidphoenix
- The defensiveness and refusal to defend self (what UncleSam identified as 'WHY MEEE?' behaviour) is neither town or scum behaviour but simply the manifestation of pressured players in an experience differential. However, a town player in such a situation typically will redirect to their own scumreads and not appeal to the biases of the person attacking them. A scum player is happy for whomever to be lynched as long as it's not them (although I think whoever acidphoenix's partner is today is happy to lynch them if forced to)
- There was a clear scumslip in response to Da Letter El's comment that the best lynch would be U-Turn Out because the flip would yield lots of information, namely that if U-Turn Out was mafia I would become #1 suspect for their partner and if U-Turn Out was town then suspicion would fall on Sam and Celever due to absence of scumreads in the lynch
- I disputed DLE's comment in a previous post because I found the logic objectionable in the listed case that U-Turn Out could be town, especially in the context that I felt DLE was trying to subtly build up suspicion on me, and remarked that the flip was accordingly not very useful by DLE's own comments because the only person it would shed any light on is me
- U-Turn Out cited my argument by 'We really don't get much info from my flip at all; jumpluff is the only person who would be affected by my flip as you say they would be my partner if I was mafia.'
- I observed that the bolded part was a very pronounced scumslip as it a) directly assumes the case U-Turn Out flips mafia, which is not the default assumption for someone who knows they are town and would be mislynched b) ignores the case U-Turn Out flips town, in which case U-Turn Out should have opinions on if there were any scum who were culprits directly or indirectly for the mislynch
- The evidence underlying my point b) in the line above is that U-Turn Out made cases for the flips of Celever and acidphoenix (if one flips scum, DLE is their partner), but did not make a case for their own flip as town
- That flip logic ignores U-Turn Out's previous points that UncleSam and Celever were buddying.
Therefore, I concluded the post was coming purely from a desire not to be lynched, and not a desire to correctly redirect the lynch. A remotely rational town player is not happy for anyone to be lynched but them when a mislynch places the town numbers at equal with the mafia numbers. That scenario 'works', but at the most basic level of good play, not if there are people who you can make a correct case for to be lynched (which UTO failed to do when responding to Da Letter El, and only did when responding to UncleSam and myself). A town player wants to defend themselves from the lynch adequately so that they are not mislynched, and also prevent mislynches onto other players, and provide useful information in the case they die, tendencies U-Turn Out had already previously identified as pro-town behaviour that their scumreads (Celever et al.) were not exhibiting and hence can be accountable for not doing in points of pressure.
In conclusion, U-Turn Out, your interactions with Celever are minimal and primarily suggest a desire for attention to return to them (or acidphoenix) off you rather than to establish any point about him. They are purely defensive in nature, something you have identified as scummy behaviour of Celever's yourself.
I already explained the situation about PokeguyNXB; when he subbed out he was more of a null read for me; his sub has been posting and right now he looks pretty towny. acidphoenix and Celever were my top two scumreads at that moment, which is why I specifically called them out; I still see them as my top two scumreads and the best lynches for today. I still wouldn't refer the bolded part as a scumslip, more as a misunderstanding; while you say that the argument makes sense from your point of view, it also made sense from DLE's point of view and his main argument for the information, which is why I put it there, as I said before. I also want to mention that I don't think that UncleSam was buddying Celever, more like Celever buddying UncleSam, which was I was thinking a Celever flip wouldn't really strengthen the case against UncleSam too much, although we should still consider it if Celever does indeed flip mafia.
This is good and I am happy to hear it. I think it is important both to individually identify scummy play and to try to identify weird relationships or absences thereof between players. At this point in the game, process of elimination is valid from one's own PoV to attempt to identify likely scum. This post was far more internally consistent, although I'd like to hear US's response to your question since I can see both of your points (you explicitly identified which scumteam DLE could be on, but responded to DLE clearly and acknowledgedly as if he were town while he, from your PoV, aggressively started a mislynch on you). I would like to hear what you think is a more reasonable set of four scum than Pokeguy/Celever/UltrasPlot[rssp1]/acidphoenix though, since your only proposed list is, as you noted, clunky and inconsistent with your views on PokeguyNXB.
If I were allowed to include DLE in this list he would probably replace one of rssp1 or Pokeguy. UncleSam could possibly go on this list as well, as a scum team with Celever, leaving DLE and acidphoenix as the other team. Most likely, the scumteams are probably DLE + acidphoenix and Celever + rssp1/pokeguy, or Celever + UncleSam and DLE + acidphoenix. I can go into further detail later if you want me to.
Yes, my problem was explicitly that you used my argument to combat them. My argument only makes sense from my PoV. It makes no sense from yours because from your PoV you are not mafia. You are still ignoring the possibility you are town, which is.... really, really weird, to say the least. What would you advise if you are mislynched? What do you think that suggests about Da Letter El and UncleSam?
If I am mislynched (which would be the case if I am lynched), I would highly suggest looking into DLE, he's the one who pushed this lynch in the first place and pretty much focused all his attention on me; acid would pretty much be confirmed scum to everybody, and I would take a deeper look into UncleSam; I think he's just a town mislynching, because his posts just seem like town to me right now, but he should still be under suspicion. I feel like that's pretty much it; there's not really too much to gain from my flip.
UncleSam, can you tell me what part of my posts you aren't satisfied with?
I am really confused by Celever's latest post. I was pretty convinced by jumpluff's theory that he wasn't ignoring me, just staying silent and let the lynch happen. Does he see anything useful that will happen by siding with me? While I do appreciate it, it just seems like a weird thing for Celever to say at the current moment given that jumpluff is correct.
acidphoenix please actually post relevant thoughts such as lynch targets and comments on discussion; your last post just made you look more scummy in my eyes.
I will be more available in the upcoming days, so expect more posts later