Ladder Mix and Mega

[21:45:27] MVL Invalid: What is the difference between "uncompetitive" and "broken"?
[21:45:37] Josh: uncompetitve is like swagger
[21:45:39] ScorrchingTheaph: one relies on hax
[21:45:41] Josh: or skymin parahax
[21:45:48] Josh: broken is like m-alt in monotype
[21:45:49] Rain ☆ Delta: one is nearly unstopable
[21:46:13] Melodic D Minor: Uncompetitive is like a game that is based off of /dice aka swag play

AJA, explain Uncompetitive.
 
How exactly does stall laugh in its face? Many threats of stall can't do anything to it at all, and are eventually worn down and removed by plus 6 thunderbolts and dragon pulses, or just straight up PP stalled.

Meanwhile, every team in the tier should be prepared for Espeed abusers, and Invalid's RMT is extremely well prepared for them.

This thing had all but taken over the tier when the month ended, it's no joke and it's no gimmick. Also, what does "uncompetitive" mean? You literally can't hit it with most of the tier.

Heliolisk is like a Flying/Ground/Normal/Steel/Fairy/Ghost with Magic Guard only better.
 
1nvalid, I'd say it's kinda in its own category that combines the two. It's uncompetitive in that it requires 0 skill to use, but it's also broken because it's actually completely viable at the same time, centralizes the meta, and it makes certain strategies just completely unviable. It's basically an auto-win, and that's stupid.
 
How exactly does stall laugh in its face? Many threats of stall can't do anything to it at all, and are eventually worn down and removed by plus 6 thunderbolts and dragon pulses, or just straight up PP stalled.
cm blissey basically doesn't care in the slightest and is viable for checking manaphy and beating opposing stall, I never had trouble with it on the ladder (I know that doesn't make it not broken, but it's certainly untrue to say it trashes or even really threatens stall imo)
 
Calm Mind Blissey is trash and pretty much every team has something to deal with it. I personally Toxic it with Gyaradosite Nidoqueen, and Roar it out if it has heal bell.

Correction, any good player will have something to deal with CM Blissey. Forcing Heliolisk to switch using a non-threatening Pokemon isn't a big deal. I've ran CM blissey, I've never gotten a sweep with it ever, at all. I've ran Sablenite and Slowbronite.
 
Calm Mind Blissey is trash and pretty much every team has something to deal with it. I personally Toxic it with Gyaradosite Nidoqueen, and Roar it out if it has heal bell.

Correction, any good player will have something to deal with CM Blissey. Forcing Heliolisk to switch using a non-threatening Pokemon isn't a big deal. I've ran CM blissey, I've never gotten a sweep with it ever, at all. I've ran Sablenite and Slowbronite.
Tbh, I have found that the best way to beat blissey is just to overwhelm it through sheer force. It's not super easy, but stuff like terrain and NP pidgeotite thundy can make short work of it. Thundy in particular is super cool, since people seem to underestimate it's power and automatically assume blissey will wall it. They're wrong, in case you were wondering.
 
[21:45:27] MVL Invalid: What is the difference between "uncompetitive" and "broken"?
[21:45:37] Josh: uncompetitve is like swagger
[21:45:39] ScorrchingTheaph: one relies on hax
[21:45:41] Josh: or skymin parahax
[21:45:48] Josh: broken is like m-alt in monotype
[21:45:49] Rain ☆ Delta: one is nearly unstopable
[21:46:13] Melodic D Minor: Uncompetitive is like a game that is based off of /dice aka swag play

AJA, explain Uncompetitive.
Uncompetitive means, basically, that player skill has been taken out of the equation, or severely reduced in importance. In the case of Heliolisk, pretty much any team can take it out, but it requires prediction to do so (attack when they attack, don't attack when they use Electrify) if you aren't faster than Heliolisk, don't have priority, have no Speed boosting, and don't have Mold Breaker, with the consequences of a mis-predict being strongly weighted toward the Heliolisk player.

If you mispredict, the two possible consequences are A: they take no damage and get a +1, and after enough of those can sweep a team lacking priority and/or Pokemon faster than Heliolisk or B: they dish out damage to you while you switch, use a self-targeting move, or otherwise do nothing targeting Heliolisk. If they mispredict, the two possible consequences are A: they dish out damage to you but take damage in turn (In a lot of cases, this will be a mutual 2HKO and Heliolisk can finish the target anyway) or B: they use Electrify and nothing happens but 1 out of 32 PP is wasted.

So the best case scenario for the non-Heliolisk Pokemon is pretty bad, if it isn't something like "use Swords Dance and then successfully predict an attack to net the OHKO", which is hard, and screwing it up can result in you fainting without ever touching Heliolisk anyway, Swords Dance or no.

This is a long series of 50/50 type predictions that favor Heliolisk, with even things going wrong for it tending to amount to "Heliolisk KOs a Pokemon before it goes down, having mauled another Pokemon first". It's not broken, not in the usual sense, as it requires a certain amount of luck -prediction, rather than actual dice- to become an abomination, but said luck favors it in terms of how the payoff is weighted.
 
Uncompetitive means, basically, that player skill has been taken out of the equation, or severely reduced in importance. In the case of Heliolisk, pretty much any team can take it out, but it requires prediction to do so (attack when they attack, don't attack when they use Electrify) if you aren't faster than Heliolisk, don't have priority, have no Speed boosting, and don't have Mold Breaker, with the consequences of a mis-predict being strongly weighted toward the Heliolisk player.

If you mispredict, the two possible consequences are A: they take no damage and get a +1, and after enough of those can sweep a team lacking priority and/or Pokemon faster than Heliolisk or B: they dish out damage to you while you switch, use a self-targeting move, or otherwise do nothing targeting Heliolisk. If they mispredict, the two possible consequences are A: they dish out damage to you but take damage in turn (In a lot of cases, this will be a mutual 2HKO and Heliolisk can finish the target anyway) or B: they use Electrify and nothing happens but 1 out of 32 PP is wasted.

So the best case scenario for the non-Heliolisk Pokemon is pretty bad, if it isn't something like "use Swords Dance and then successfully predict an attack to net the OHKO", which is hard, and screwing it up can result in you fainting without ever touching Heliolisk anyway, Swords Dance or no.

This is a long series of 50/50 type predictions that favor Heliolisk, with even things going wrong for it tending to amount to "Heliolisk KOs a Pokemon before it goes down, having mauled another Pokemon first". It's not broken, not in the usual sense, as it requires a certain amount of luck -prediction, rather than actual dice- to become an abomination, but said luck favors it in terms of how the payoff is weighted.
basically the situation is similar to aegislash in OU.
 
Ghoul King That's a fair explanation of a concept, which to me is just a form of being broken. The reason I think the Uncompetitive vs. Broken distinction is a problem is, Uncompetitive is a word thrown around a lot by people who will call anything they don't personally like uncompetitive, and not really understand what they mean by it. For example, I've heard people call Keldeo uncompetitive, and I can't think of any logical reason that would be true, based on this definition of uncompetitive. Maybe it's a respected thing and most people know better than to listen to that, but since I don't know how everybody else thinks, I worry.

Also, by this definition, lots of things that are very common strategies in many tiers seem to fit. For example, a U-turn core with good options for a lot of things and 3 set up Pokemon. Since you spam U-turn until your opponent eventually sends out something that something can easily set up on, predictions don't favor the opponent.

I hope AllJokesAside answers so I know for sure what he meant, because I don't want to take his meaning wrong.
 
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I mean, at this point it's pretty clear B- isn't where Heliolisk belongs at all. With a moderate amount of support, you can make a team with a solid core whose 6th member happens to be immortal in a large number of situations.

You can argue that new players to the tier wouldn't know how to use it, but in the last few days of the month new players were using Invalid's RMT just fine, since she took the liberty of explaining exactly how and when to use any member of it.

Another thing I would take into consideration of moving it into the upper levels of the threat list (besides just that Flygon isn't anywhere near the same level of threat that it is) is that having it that low on the threat list won't give new players a proper idea of what to expect from the tier when it comes back in a few months. Thanks again to Invalid, the standard team will include Heliolisk, because it's extremely easy to use and rank up quickly with.

In summation, either ban it or move it to A+/S. There's nothing gimmicky about a pokemon that rewards even moderate play with completely shutting down enemy teams.
 
We could always just ban Electrify. This is literally the controversial moveset of Heliolisk and it revolves around a move that would see no competitive use outside of it. Instead of banning Heliolisk or complex banning Heliolisk and Sceptilite, this is probably the easiest ban.
Literally what I suggested a few pages back:
If I might say one word about Heliolisk: why not simply ban Electrify, as that seems to be the root of the problem, rather than the Pokemon itself?
To which Ghoul King replied:
The Council voted on exactly that and the result was 1 B, 3 DNB, 1 Abstain.
I think most of us can agree that simply banning the move gets rid of the problem while causing zero effective collateral damage. Smeargle would never use the move anyway, it sees zero competitive use in any game outside of this one purpose, and Heliolisk is actually perfectly usable without it.
 
How exactly does stall laugh in its face? Many threats of stall can't do anything to it at all, and are eventually worn down and removed by plus 6 thunderbolts and dragon pulses, or just straight up PP stalled.

Meanwhile, every team in the tier should be prepared for Espeed abusers, and Invalid's RMT is extremely well prepared for them.

This thing had all but taken over the tier when the month ended, it's no joke and it's no gimmick. Also, what does "uncompetitive" mean? You literally can't hit it with most of the tier.

Heliolisk is like a Flying/Ground/Normal/Steel/Fairy/Ghost with Magic Guard only better.
Stall would never attempt to hit it, a heloisk at neutral isn't doing crap.

Also I don't think sleep is uncompetitive, Josh worded it nicely. Sleep is never used to rely on hax, paralyze or swagplay is. You can't beat a team of six pokemon with Sleep, you can with swagplay.
 

xJownage

Even pendulums swing both ways
I have yet to see one good reason why we shouldn't ban electrify...it centralizes the metagame and has no real use outside of one set. The set does not rely on skill, only spamming moves, and for that reason, its not a competitive strategy; it can easily allow a bad player to beat a much better one due to its presence alone.

Stall would never attempt to hit it, a heloisk at neutral isn't doing crap.
While this is just wrong, its not the point either. I'm not gonna bother addressing this and you should drop it as well because its not a good argument for either side.

What does banning it do besides stop the excessive metagame centralization atm? Nothing. There is no collateral damage, we aren't losing some valuable metagame threat; we're just eliminating something that makes battles matchup based and forces teams to overprepare or be auto swept. Heliolisk is way too effective as a cleaner because it is completely consistent and unbeatable if you don't predict properly, and it defies the word competitive.

Like I said, we have no good reason not to ban it, since its effectiveness is really irrelevant.
 
Centralising the metagame... Not really. The metagame already revolves around e-speed and speed control, it's not like Helioisk changed that.
First of all, it was voted on 3 for banning it, 1 for not banning it and one abstain, and the votes should be anonymous, feels better that way so there's no witch hunting. It feels grossly overhyped and overrated, I tried to use it effectively and the only time I've come to the conclusion "it's broken" is from theory-monning, but in-game? it's not that good, I was very rarely in a position where I could get a boost. If you want a reason, and the reason that bans aren't so common in any metagame- the second you ban something it's placed in a box, the box has a label on it. You need to fit the pokemon into the correct box, a "broken box", "uncompetitive box", "unhealthy box" and "centralising box". The council reached the conclusion that helioisk doesn't fit into either of these boxes and the metagame quiet easily handles it's. If we ban something regardless of not fitting into either of these boxes we're forced to create an entirely new box, which means we're going to end up banning a whole butt-load of other pokemon.
 

xJownage

Even pendulums swing both ways
Centralising the metagame... Not really. The metagame already revolves around e-speed and speed control, it's not like Helioisk changed that.
First of all, it was voted on 3 for banning it, 1 for not banning it and one abstain, and the votes should be anonymous, feels better that way so there's no witch hunting. It feels grossly overhyped and overrated, I tried to use it effectively and the only time I've come to the conclusion "it's broken" is from theory-monning, but in-game? it's not that good, I was very rarely in a position where I could get a boost. If you want a reason, and the reason that bans aren't so common in any metagame- the second you ban something it's placed in a box, the box has a label on it. You need to fit the pokemon into the correct box, a "broken box", "uncompetitive box", "unhealthy box" and "centralising box". The council reached the conclusion that helioisk doesn't fit into either of these boxes and the metagame quiet easily handles it's. If we ban something regardless of not fitting into either of these boxes we're forced to create an entirely new box, which means we're going to end up banning a whole butt-load of other pokemon.
What even is this logic? It fits right into both the centralizing and uncompetitive box. Uncompetitive doesn't just involve luck, but strategies that prevent competitive play and opportunity. There is a such thing as something being broken to the point of being uncompetitive as well, look at mega rayquaza. So broken it was unanimously uncompetitive because it removed skill from the game. That is exactly what heliolisk does. While its not to the same extent as mega rayquaza, it is unhealthy for the tier. I don't see your logic on not banning it because it needs a new box, it fits right under unhealthy, centralizing, broken, and uncompetitive. It warps and centralizes the metagame, is broken because it invalidates many team types, and is uncompetitive because it makes mons unviable.

Oh and again, effectiveness is completely irrelevant. Stop talking about it.
 
What even is this logic? It fits right into both the centralizing and uncompetitive box. Uncompetitive doesn't just involve luck, but strategies that prevent competitive play and opportunity. There is a such thing as something being broken to the point of being uncompetitive as well, look at mega rayquaza. So broken it was unanimously uncompetitive because it removed skill from the game. That is exactly what heliolisk does. While its not to the same extent as mega rayquaza, it is unhealthy for the tier. I don't see your logic on not banning it because it needs a new box, it fits right under unhealthy, centralizing, broken, and uncompetitive. It warps and centralizes the metagame, is broken because it invalidates many team types, and is uncompetitive because it makes mons unviable.

Oh and again, effectiveness is completely irrelevant. Stop talking about it.
And three council members respectfully disagree with that. They believe it's not centralising, the metagame hardly changed because of helioisk. And Mega Rayquaza fit into all four boxes, it's the definition of all of them.

Well... Here's the thing, it's not all that effective. In theory it should be, but in reality it's not all that powerful meaning it can't dent stall which can PP stall it if needs be, while offence usually just outspeeds it or uses priority. Didn't really do anything, yet again, the council voted and...

The vote is over, much like the Lucario discussion the discussing is still going on. I'd rather here some of peoples thoughts about how the metagame as a whole was, I really enjoyed how fast the metagame changed/adapted :)
 
"Uncompetitive" isn't just about luck-based strategies. Trapping is uncompetitive -not necessarily broken (What team is afraid of Probopass, again?), but uncompetitive, and it's not random in the slightest. Endless battles are uncompetitive, and are basically the antithesis of broken, because they deliberately avoid winning. And again, endless battle isn't random. (Well, Leppa Harvest has a component of randomness, but its virtually nil, requiring an absurd chain of missed 50% rolls to actually matter)

Broken is about winning. Uncompetitive is about removing skill from the equation. (Or placing its importance far below other considerations, such as luck)

I'm also personally unfond of Electrify Sceptilite Heliolisk just because it's unfun.

Meanwhile, the only argument I'm getting for why not to ban Electrify is "Electrify Sceptilite Heliolisk is not broken", which, even if I accept that it's true, isn't really a good argument to not ban it. Heck, Evasion Clause isn't actually about Evasion being good -the general consensus, competitively, is that it's not, but it's competitively unhealthy regardless.

I'm taking this to council, round 2.
 
False. Trapping is not uncompetitive, if you see your opponent has a goth or dug you play around it. It's entirely competitive.
are you even serious right now?

False again. Endless battles are against the rules, what does that even have to do with anything? They aren't uncompetitive OR broken, they're BANNED ease it's literally pointless when you aren't playing to win.
they're banned because they're uncompetitive. see above.

Broken and uncompetitive are both about winning. Your definitions are all flawed.
uncompetitiveness has nothing to do with winning. uncompetitiveness is anything that breaks the fair nature of a metagame and brings the possibility of preventing a more skilled player from winning. trapping and endless battles both bring this about as well as things like assistdon in BH and the particular situation we're in.
 
False. Trapping is not uncompetitive, if you see your opponent has a goth or dug you play around it. It's entirely competitive.

False again. Endless battles are against the rules, what does that even have to do with anything? They aren't uncompetitive OR broken, they're BANNED ease it's literally pointless when you aren't playing to win.

Broken and uncompetitive are both about winning. Your definitions are all flawed.
A: What's the point of using two different words if you insist they mean the same thing?

B: There's no formal, dictionary definition of uncompetitive out there aside from the ones that define it basically as "incompetent", not even anywhere on Smogon. My definition and yours have no official support of any kind.

C: How, exactly, do you "play around" trapping?

D: Yes, endless battles are against the rules. So is putting Gengarite on Gengar in OU. So is running myriad Evasion boosters in OU. What's your point?

What was the point of this dickish, dictatorial post telling me I'm 100%-for-sure wrong about my interpretations of vague words that have no formal definition everybody agrees on?
 
Well... Here's the thing, it's not all that effective. In theory it should be, but in reality it's not all that powerful meaning it can't dent stall which can PP stall it if needs be, while offence usually just outspeeds it or uses priority. Didn't really do anything, yet again, the council voted and..
You say things are ineffective because you want it to be true. If it's inneffective, how did I take heliolisk to rank 1? And no, I'm not demeaning the 1st place ranks that you also held, I'm saying, how is the crux of my team, Heliolisk, ineffective? As I've said before, Heliolisk is the PP staller in chief, it has 48 PP to just dump out on the floor whenever it feels like with complete immunity to everything during the process.

Heliolisk @ Sceptilite
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 76 HP / 180 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Electrify
- Thunderbolt
- Dragon Pulse
- Protect

Stats: HP: 62 / Atk: 80 / Def: 62 / SpA: 149 / SpD: 94 / Spe: 134

Outspeeding Heliolisk is not the cake walk you make it out to be. Base 134 is higher than the boatload of threats that sit at 130, including Lucarionite + Terrakion / Keldeo. And no, I'm not saying it's impossible to outspeed, I'm commenting on how loosely you throw around the idea of outspeeding it. My opinion is that Electrify should be banned from Mix and Mega. In closing, I'm sorry to xJownage for allowing this effectiveness based discussion to derail to what he feels is unimportant to the argument, but it bothers me to have AJA saying it's ineffective without saying anything back.
 

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