Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[Alfalfa]

Yes but what has helped wobbufet recently hoppa? Wobbufet has nothing going for it with the addition of hoopa and the increase in bisharp/ttar for pursuit trapping sure it doesn't kill but many pokemon can play around wobbufet and wobbufet can be entirely useless against some mons on stall such as chancey seeing as how they click toxic and win I personally hate wobbufet not because it's really good but it's annoying but i do see viability with it if used right but in my opinion give the spot to another pokemon because it can't wall a team no recovery and most importantly taunt stops wob in it's tracks making it useless.

If you are keeping Wobbuffet in on Hoopa, that is your own fault. Tyranitar doesn't even beat Wobbuffet unless it is weakened, as outside of Banded Crunch, Tyranitar can't even KO Wobbuffet unless it has lost a significant amount of its health. Most defensive Pokemon can play around Wobbuffet by hitting it with status, but most offensive Pokemon flat-out lose to it. Also, Wobbuffet isn't supposed to beat stall; it is supposed to beat most offensive Pokemon along with a small number of defensive Pokemon.

 

[AM]

Small update.

I removed definitions from each rank.

trc, tdk, and a couple of other people I have talked to believe that the definitions put too much focus on the semantics of the meaning of it, while ignoring the practicality of the group of Pokemon in said ranks. As such discussions would be sidetracked about non-factors that wasn't applicable in the grand scheme of ranking stuff not only from a ranking team perspective, but the perspective of many of the users here.

The discussion in this thread is sort of at a very stagnant point and Halycon had some interest in using my version of viability rankings on potw to use as the benchmark for some of the ranking placements, based on a prior comment I saw. I plan on making a long comment on that possibly in a bit justifying my reasoning for each one but there's the heads up as it'll take awhile to write it all out.

From there you guys can maturely decide on what to discuss upon.

 

[henry]

HOW DO I KNOW WHAT'S WHAT NOW

 

[AM]

I'll preface this comment by saying this is my own interpretation of the ranking threads, nothing more nothing less. This version also establishes what some of the ranking guys were discussing in some convos about establishing a different approach in the S rank category. I'll also say that unless I'm significantly inclined to I'll probably not be replying to a whole lot here that I get quoted on if at all. Sort of wanted to steer the thread into better discussion points since it's been in need of one for a bit. The original version from my potw has changed it a bit after seeing a couple of things and realize this isn't all alphabetical either, and is subject to change in the long run as I see new stuff and read arguments of course. Anyways on to show.

My version of VR thread

S Rank

Altaria (Mega)

Charizard (Mega-X)

Clefable

Azumarill (change)

Garchomp (change)

Manaphy (change)

A+ Rank

Bisharp

Excadrill

Gengar (Debatable in the long run)

Gyarados (Mega)

Hoopa Unbound

Heatran

Keldeo

Landorus-T

Lopunny (Mega)

Latios

Metagross (Mega)

Sableye (Mega)

Scizor (Mega)

Talonflame

Thundurus

Tornadus-T

Weavile (change)

A Rank

Diancie (Mega) (change)

Alakazam (Mega)

Charizard (Mega-Y)

Ferrothorn

Gardevoir (Mega)

Hippowdon

Klefki (change)

Kyurem-B

Latias (Mega)

Manectric (Mega)

Skarmory

Slowbro

Slowbro (Mega) (change)

Starmie

Tyranitar

Venusaur (Mega) (This could probably be A+ just for its defensive set alone, we debated about it behind the scenes all the time when I was on team)

A- Rank

Gliscor (change)

Aerodactyl (Mega)

Alakazam

Gyarados

Jirachi

Latias (change)

Magnezone

Mew

Pinsir (Mega)

Politoed

Raikou

Rotom-W

Serperior (could be argued for A)

Volcarona

B+ Rank

Breloom

Celebi (change)

Diggersby

Dragonite

Feraligatr (change)

Gallade (Mega)

Heracross (Mega)

Hydreigon

Kabutops

Kingdra

Mamoswine

Medicham (Mega)

Scolipede

Slowking

Suicune

Swampert (Mega)

Terrakion

Togekiss

B Rank

Beedrill (Mega) (people argue this all the time to drop but most m-bee teams that are built well are so annoying to face)

Chansey

Crawdaunt

Dragalge (change)

Empoleon

Garchomp (Mega)

Hawlucha

Quagsire

Omastar

Reuniclus

Sceptile (Mega)

Scizor
Tangrowth (change)

Tyranitar (Mega)

Victini (change)

Zapdos

B- Rank

Amoonguss

Azelf (change)

Cobalion

Conkeldurr

Gastrodon

Hoopa

Lucario

Magneton

Mandibuzz

Pidgeot (Mega) (change)

Sharpedo (Mega) (change)

Sylveon

Tentacruel (change)
Toxicroak

Tyrantrum (could argue for B)

C+ Rank

Alomomola

Ampharos (Mega)

Banette (Mega) (change)

Blastoise (Mega)

Bronzong (change)

Chesnaught (change)

Entei (change)

Gothitelle (change)

Heracross

Houndoom (Mega) (change)

Infernape (change)

Seismitoad

Staraptor

Thundurus-T (I saw a rank nom for this to move up and I don't think it should. Needs a lot of things out of the way to work well / team support)

Wobbuffet

Whimsicott (change)

C Rank

Absol (Mega)

Cofagrigus

Cresselia (change)

Dugtrio (A case can be made for moving up. I've been using a Char-X, Volcarona, Dugtrio combo and it's monstrous.)

Goodra

Gourgeist-XL

Krookodile

Kyurem

Latios (Mega) ( I would unrank this personally)

Rhyperior (change)

Rotom-H

Porygon2

Shuckle

C- Rank

Aggron (Mega)

Blissey

Forretress

Froslass

Pangoro

Meloetta (change)

Metagross (change)

Nidoking (change)

Nidoqueen (change)

Venusaur (change)

D Rank

Abomasnow (Mega) (change)

Chandelure

Camerupt (Mega) (change)

Cloyster

Emboar

Espeon (I'd unrank this personally)

Haxorus

Honchkrow

Jellicent

Mienshao

Roserade (change)

Sableye

Salamence

Shaymin

Smeargle

Zygarde (change)

Justification for each choice / change or just general stuff based on discussion points. I'll start with S rank by itself first in this comment and how I perceive it. I'd like people to sort of gauge an opinion on this rank alone. I was planning on touching upon everything but rather not get the topic all over the place. The other placements should be stuff to consider in the future or as a reference point if you so desire for yourself or others. It'd be nice if people helped steer discussion since it clearly helps just so people don't lose their minds. Let's start.

The Revamp of S:

Cases for M-Altaria being dropped in this thread while may be warranted depending on who you ask, I believe isn't necessarily the right time to say it's gotten worse. It hasn't necessarily gotten better, but it still puts an immense amount of team-building constraint with its Dragon Dance set. What pushes M-Altaria to the edge is the combination of defensive utility packed with offensive process being granted two of the most consistent typings in the OU meta if not the game of Pokemon itself. This is all coupled in with coverage to, as cliche as it sounds, pick and choose its counters. The increase in Mega Scizor may be a problem to some extent but this is where Fire Blast has become more viable as a coverage move in the meta, thus making Mega Scizor a shaky answer at best. Its adaptability is also shown in the usage of Speed nature M-Altarias using Jolly natures to outspeed the likes of Bisharp all the way up to Heatran. Most players have caught on to this and the amount of support it needs to actually get its snowball effects going is very small. It's S for its Dragon Dance variants alone. The other sets are just icing on the cake.

While Mega Altaria is revered as one of the best defensive Dragon Dancers, Charizard-X is the premiere offensive Dragon Dancer at this point in time. Its checks are limited to highly defensive waters and grounds such as Slowbro, Defensive Lando-T, Hippowdon and as the sets become more detailed based on team these checks start to diminish in the team-builder phase. Charizard-X's team support is one partner at best and perhaps just hazard support, which is a necessity of every team anyways, and its partners being some of the larger team building constraints in the tier already such as Manaphy and Serperior. The tier right now puts emphasis and rewards those who can excel at both power and speed. Doing both at once similar to the likes of Volcarona and PuP Lopunny is a strong appeal warranting a teamslot. Doing this and already providing every positive that comes with being Zard-X with little necessary to remove its large issue in SR certifies itself as an S rank threat.

Clefable will be the symbol of balance as much as people like to fool themselves in thinking that it has remotely gotten worse. Hoopa-Us presence hasn't faltered Clefables traits, even encouraging the use of more Unaware T-Wave variants for balance to tackle threats such as Manaphy, Serperior, SD Chomp and hinder the progress of certain Dragon Dancers like Mega Altaria. The sentiment from players thinking Clefable has gotten worse is always coming from an offensive player position, when you need to take into account the player pool who aren't solely focused on high octane offense. Being prepped for fairies like the next point about Azumarill, is not being prepared for Clefable. When one asks are you prepped for fairies, it's indicating Clefable as being one of the defining ones in the tier subliminally, players associated to the tier know this, it's almost second nature at this point. It's a much more exclusive fairy because it has a combination of traits that smooths out many balanced builds and cores to succeed in the meta while naturally providing incredible assets in a dragon immunity, hazard immunity with Magic Guard, and Unaware as a fall back for various offensive threats. It is the practical definition of an S rank Pokemon for a balance team / archetype.

Azumarill is part of the new S in my eyes. The increase in Zard-X, Weavile, Heatran, the omni-present usage of sand balance, the lack of actual good counter-play against Azumarill that isn't exploitable to hazards or aren't even solid answers to begin with such as Rotom-W, has put Azumarill in my eyes one of the largest team-building constraints. Counter arguments always include such things as, "well it's slow, it can be revenge killed" when this is much easier said than done. Azumarill is able to create situations through either itself or through its team to guarantee a kill per game. This kill per game aspect comes from its ability to not be part of the typical water and fairy stereotypes associated in handling it cause it sports the traits of both at once, and the freedom and utility to change what it wants to beat and how it supports a team-mate at a much higher level than those of the A+ rank to me. When Mega Venusaur becomes one of the only counters to you and the tier puts themselves in a position to get murdered by a BD or Band Azu, it's time to move the bunny up.

Garchomp is a weird case. Under the current S it's impossible to put it at S, which we've had to refuse everytime it was brought up. You can't exactly put it on the level of Char-X and M-Alt because these two are sort of the extremes of the picture that symbolize an S rank, to the point that from a comparison value people wanted to drop Clefable and thought it was a good idea to have only two megas in S ._. . This is where the change of S comes to more fruition. Tank chomp, Scarf Chomp, SD chomp, and Sash Chomp the combination of these sets is where my justification for S stems from. Each of these sets holds a certain amount of viability on a variety of teams, a variety that applies to just about every single viable archetype. Tankchomp has changed the way so many teams and Pokemon have had to adapt and putting an emphasis on the shift towards specially inclined Pokemon to avoid using contact attackers. It was the beginning of M-Metagross and its decline in fame and even level of brokenness in the eyes of many, the shift towards offensive SD Landorus-T as opposed to Scarf, Wisp Talonflame as its offensive variants became more difficult to use on all teams all the time which wasn't the case before, these are just a few and this only starts on some of the more centralizing Pokemon in the tier not touching upon every single nuance. Tankchomp has maintained consistency even with the rise of threats such as Weavile and Zard-X, while still having the benefits of its offensive variants that we all know and love. Sporting a speed tier that stands above the likes of M-Gard, the Zards, Kyurem-B, basically base 100 and below is what gives it such an edge for a teamslot. There's not a whole lot of elaboration that I think is necessary since many know what it does and know how vital it is to the tier in terms of team-building and threat level.

Manaphy I think should've been S for awhile after much playing, thought, and deliberation. The counterarguments for this one is that it's weak without a Tail Glow and that once again can be revenge killed. So considering all this being said, why is it that Manaphy has been a point of discussion to myself and other council members from a variety of players to be suspected and to many balance and defensive oriented players broken? That's sort of the problem right now with the counter argument assertions, they're contradictory to what a majority of players outside of this thread have spoken upon and seen. Manaphy is the definition of a wall-breaker, it will break something and these scenarios that it does break something are easily found. The tiers slow shift towards a more offensive meta is partially to blame from Manaphy, with Hoopa-U certifying this to what is practically a new meta shift. Manaphy is one the most powerful water types in the tier and it dictates a lot of team-building, dictates a lot of player control, and it not only has the threat level of something top tier but one that is even able to supplement other top tier threats to succeed such as Zard-X. Being broken is questionable, but I don't think being S is hard to consider if we go a different route for S rank and the fact it's such a defining force against the balanced archetype and the way said playstyle has had to adapt, and even then adapting not too well.

So that's my thought of what S should look like. Obviously there's different perception of S but to me that's what I think has enough effectiveness to maintain themselves there. At a later point I'll bring up the other ranks.

 

[teamsnickers]

HOW DO I KNOW WHAT'S WHAT NOW

Maybe we can re introduce tornadus t for s, this thing is so splashable and the most used argument onto why tornadus t shouldn't be s is hurricane miss.which while annoying is by no means debilitating enough for a rank difference.....Tornadus t can run many different lures items and sets and regn with u turn makes tornadus t even more of a threat, it fits on almost all types of teams because of its offensive versatility is literally insane....... that combined with great typing in flying and above average bulk idk how you can leave tornadus t out of s when your only argument is hurricane miss... this thing literally rapes all types of teams with its power movepool speed and bulk


EDIT.. someone finally agrees on azumarill for s yeeeeeee ty AM

 

[dice]

torn-t's like the most overrated pokemon ever o my god

like u have to rely on two 70% moves most of the time and half the time the nikka just gets batted wit a scald and loses its effectiveness. The opportunity cost of using torn-t is legitimately not being able to use any other pokemon. defensively speaking, torn-t only /really/ /definitely/ soft checks gengar and serperior (and venusaur i guess if it ain't drop the thun thun thun with sludge bomb [other grass types aren't threatening enough to retain a defensive niche for a mon.... do you really think 'hey i need an amoonguss check' when making a team??]) so it's more niche than wanting to toss torn-t on every squad imaginable. not only is it liable to miss and fuck you over, but it has an amalgam of 4mss and item issues wanting all of av, lo, iron tail, heat wave, superpower, taunt, etc. this mon is like the epitome of an "annoyance" but typically not a "threat" and half the time it just sits there hitting knock off on the switch on suboptimal teams where another pokemon would be better in its place. like seriously ugh why is this mon so popular

 

[thesecondbest]

like seriously ugh why is this mon so popular

Because it's insanely effective in battle. Sure, you can rag on it for having 4 MSS but any four moves still decimates teams because they have to play around all of them. If you bring this in on a keldeo they have to switch out, even though you might not have hurricane. Knock off still annoys everything, u-turn is insanely good in utility. RegenVest is the best combo in the game (possible exaggeration but not by much) and with a way to switch out and a great utility move in knock off this is great. Then you have two more moveslots. You can put your disgustingly strong stab flying move, one of the best stab typs in the game, heat wave, iron tail, your choice. This isn't 4MSS because 2 moves is enough to be decent. The coverage slots are icing on the cake. It's on every team because it pulls its weight. Saying something isn't S worthy because of a 30% chance to miss and a 30% chance to get burnt is honestly pure rhetoric and no substance.

 

[AM]

Uh

I don't think Torn-T is S and yes Hurricane is the biggest factor as to why it shouldn't be. Winning and losing matches based on Hurricane is not consistency, something that is heavily emphasized for hitting an S rank criteria, and it happens a ton on turns and game scenarios where it matters. I have no comment on the 4mss thing while it's sort of this thing with Torn-T I never agreed with the 4mss arguments in general for anything.

 

[thesecondbest]

Hurricane has a 21% chance of confusing, which, on average, loses your opponent 1.25 turns (if they switch out it is 1 turn and you get switch initiative with u-turn) and missing loses you one turn (30%). That's a 3.75% net turn loss when going for hurricane. Dragon Tail with garchomp has a 10% chance to miss and no good hax side effect, so Chomp will get haxed more often than Torn-T. So if the hurrimiss is the only argument, to keep it out of S, then you should look at the scald effect that hurricane brings to the table - a 21% chance to confuse your opponent. This is like Piloted Shredder in Hearthstone. You guys can say "oh doomsayer, captain's parrot, this card sucks" but it's in practically every deck because it can get stuff like millhouse too.

 

[blank]

Azumarill is part of the new S in my eyes. The increase in Zard-X, Weavile, Heatran, the omni-present usage of sand balance, the lack of actual good counter-play against Azumarill that isn't exploitable to hazards or aren't even solid answers to begin with such as Rotom-W, has put Azumarill in my eyes one of the largest team-building constraints. Counter arguments always include such things as, "well it's slow, it can be revenge killed" when this is much easier said than done. Azumarill is able to create situations through either itself or through its team to guarantee a kill per game. This kill per game aspect comes from its ability to not be part of the typical water and fairy stereotypes associated in handling it cause it sports the traits of both at once, and the freedom and utility to change what it wants to beat and how it supports a team-mate at a much higher level than those of the A+ rank to me. When Mega Venusaur becomes one of the only counters to you and the tier puts themselves in a position to get murdered by a BD or Band Azu, it's time to move the bunny up.

I definitely agree with Azumarill for S rank. AM brought up a bunch of examples of the meta turning in this thing's favor, but I have a few things I wanna add. First, Azumarill has always been a pretty splashable Pokemon, but thanks to lots of the current meta trends (mentioned previously by AM), it's even better than before. It's powerful, it's bulky, it has fantastic typing offensively and defensively, and it has two amazing sets & one decent one. There isn't much in the tier that likes to handle Azumarill defensively at all... it's pretty difficult (and kinda risky) to try and switch into CB Azu, and most likely it'll put a dent in whoever's facing its team. BD Azumarill is capable of cleaning shit up as we've already known, but I really wanna stress how this thing has so few counters. Amoonguss has been declining & gets bopped by Knock Off, Ferrothorn doesn't appreciate Knock Off, and if you're running Superpower it can say goodbye, Mega Scizor definitely doesn't appreciate a Waterfall, and finally... Jolly Return BD Azu has been becoming an alternative option to hit unsuspecting Mega Venusaurs lmfao. While this set isn't optimal most of the time & Mega Venusaur is still an amazing Azu counter, this just kinda shows you can never be 100% sure lol. Azumarill checks/counters lots of popular shit, and counters for the thing are starting to run low.

 

[Clone]

can we put jirachi in a please?

a- is really underselling its capabilities as a defensive steel type. its one of the best switch ins to the lati twins, is a very solid stealth rocker for balance and bulky offense, and its movepool is so damn divers it's unreal. it has a good stab, which, when combined with its ability and potential paralysis support, is deadly to a lot of mons because they simply can't move. furthermore, jirachi has reliable recover in wish, which lets it heal both itself and teammates. jirachi also is one of the better clefable counters out there because it is capable of defeating every non-thunder wave variant while also not being either a) easily worn down, or b) really passive. it is also one of the few switch ins to mega gardevoir that doesn't take up the mega slot (the others being av metagross and spdef skarmory).

that was just its defensive set. its scarf set is really solid because it sports a good speed tier and is also capable of providing healing wish support, which is invaluable for many hyper offense teams. its subtoxic set can be a nightmare for fatter teams, and is absolutely deadly vs the standard ladder stall. i won't go into too much detail, but being able to status a plethora of mons while not being walled by standard steels like scizor or ferrothorn is great (fuck heatran tho :c). finally, jirachi has a pretty good expert belt set that is capable of luring its usualy checks; hippowdon dies to grass knot, icy wind decimates gliscor and garchomp, and if heatran is that much of an issue, hp ground can even be run. its just a solid set that is capable of opening up holes into opposing teams for a teammate such as mega gyarados to sweep much easier.

i honestly think this thing is on par with common steels such as ferrothorn and skarmory, as well as common balance mons like slowbro, so i feel a raise to a is warranted.

also holy crap it's been forever since i've made a detailed post here.

 

[MegaStarUniverse]

I

I'll preface this comment by saying this is my own interpretation of the ranking threads, nothing more nothing less. This version also establishes what some of the ranking guys were discussing in some convos about establishing a different approach in the S rank category. I'll also say that unless I'm significantly inclined to I'll probably not be replying to a whole lot here that I get quoted on if at all. Sort of wanted to steer the thread into better discussion points since it's been in need of one for a bit. The original version from my potw has changed it a bit after seeing a couple of things and realize this isn't all alphabetical either, and is subject to change in the long run as I see new stuff and read arguments of course. Anyways on to show.

My version of VR thread

S Rank

Altaria (Mega)

Charizard (Mega-X)

Clefable

Azumarill (change)

Garchomp (change)

Manaphy (change)

A+ Rank

Bisharp

Excadrill

Gengar (Debatable in the long run)

Gyarados (Mega)

Hoopa Unbound

Heatran

Keldeo

Landorus-T

Lopunny (Mega)

Latios

Metagross (Mega)

Sableye (Mega)

Scizor (Mega)

Talonflame

Thundurus

Tornadus-T

Weavile (change)

A Rank

Diancie (Mega) (change)

Alakazam (Mega)

Charizard (Mega-Y)

Ferrothorn

Gardevoir (Mega)

Hippowdon

Klefki (change)

Kyurem-B

Latias (Mega)

Manectric (Mega)

Skarmory

Slowbro

Slowbro (Mega) (change)

Starmie

Tyranitar

Venusaur (Mega) (This could probably be A+ just for its defensive set alone, we debated about it behind the scenes all the time when I was on team)

A- Rank

Gliscor (change)

Aerodactyl (Mega)

Alakazam

Gyarados

Jirachi

Latias (change)

Magnezone

Mew

Pinsir (Mega)

Politoed

Raikou

Rotom-W

Serperior (could be argued for A)

Volcarona

B+ Rank

Breloom

Celebi (change)

Diggersby

Dragonite

Feraligatr (change)

Gallade (Mega)

Heracross (Mega)

Hydreigon

Kabutops

Kingdra

Mamoswine

Medicham (Mega)

Scolipede

Slowking

Suicune

Swampert (Mega)

Terrakion

Togekiss

B Rank

Beedrill (Mega) (people argue this all the time to drop but most m-bee teams that are built well are so annoying to face)

Chansey

Crawdaunt

Dragalge (change)

Empoleon

Garchomp (Mega)

Hawlucha

Quagsire

Omastar

Reuniclus

Sceptile (Mega)

Scizor
Tangrowth (change)

Tyranitar (Mega)

Victini (change)

Zapdos

B- Rank

Amoonguss

Azelf (change)

Cobalion

Conkeldurr

Gastrodon

Hoopa

Lucario

Magneton

Mandibuzz

Pidgeot (Mega) (change)

Sharpedo (Mega) (change)

Sylveon

Tentacruel (change)
Toxicroak

Tyrantrum (could argue for B)

C+ Rank

Alomomola

Ampharos (Mega)

Banette (Mega) (change)

Blastoise (Mega)

Bronzong (change)

Chesnaught (change)

Entei (change)

Gothitelle (change)

Heracross

Houndoom (Mega) (change)

Infernape (change)

Seismitoad

Staraptor

Thundurus-T (I saw a rank nom for this to move up and I don't think it should. Needs a lot of things out of the way to work well / team support)

Wobbuffet

Whimsicott (change)

C Rank

Absol (Mega)

Cofagrigus

Cresselia (change)

Dugtrio (A case can be made for moving up. I've been using a Char-X, Volcarona, Dugtrio combo and it's monstrous.)

Goodra

Gourgeist-XL

Krookodile

Kyurem

Latios (Mega) ( I would unrank this personally)

Rhyperior (change)

Rotom-H

Porygon2

Shuckle

C- Rank

Aggron (Mega)

Blissey

Forretress

Froslass

Pangoro

Meloetta (change)

Metagross (change)

Nidoking (change)

Nidoqueen (change)

Venusaur (change)

D Rank

Abomasnow (Mega) (change)

Chandelure

Camerupt (Mega) (change)

Cloyster

Emboar

Espeon (I'd unrank this personally)

Haxorus

Honchkrow

Jellicent

Mienshao

Roserade (change)

Sableye

Salamence

Shaymin

Smeargle

Zygarde (change)

Justification for each choice / change or just general stuff based on discussion points. I'll start with S rank by itself first in this comment and how I perceive it. I'd like people to sort of gauge an opinion on this rank alone. I was planning on touching upon everything but rather not get the topic all over the place. The other placements should be stuff to consider in the future or as a reference point if you so desire for yourself or others. It'd be nice if people helped steer discussion since it clearly helps just so people don't lose their minds. Let's start.

The Revamp of S:

Cases for M-Altaria being dropped in this thread while may be warranted depending on who you ask, I believe isn't necessarily the right time to say it's gotten worse. It hasn't necessarily gotten better, but it still puts an immense amount of team-building constraint with its Dragon Dance set. What pushes M-Altaria to the edge is the combination of defensive utility packed with offensive process being granted two of the most consistent typings in the OU meta if not the game of Pokemon itself. This is all coupled in with coverage to, as cliche as it sounds, pick and choose its counters. The increase in Mega Scizor may be a problem to some extent but this is where Fire Blast has become more viable as a coverage move in the meta, thus making Mega Scizor a shaky answer at best. Its adaptability is also shown in the usage of Speed nature M-Altarias using Jolly natures to outspeed the likes of Bisharp all the way up to Heatran. Most players have caught on to this and the amount of support it needs to actually get its snowball effects going is very small. It's S for its Dragon Dance variants alone. The other sets are just icing on the cake.

While Mega Altaria is revered as one of the best defensive Dragon Dancers, Charizard-X is the premiere offensive Dragon Dancer at this point in time. Its checks are limited to highly defensive waters and grounds such as Slowbro, Defensive Lando-T, Hippowdon and as the sets become more detailed based on team these checks start to diminish in the team-builder phase. Charizard-X's team support is one partner at best and perhaps just hazard support, which is a necessity of every team anyways, and its partners being some of the larger team building constraints in the tier already such as Manaphy and Serperior. The tier right now puts emphasis and rewards those who can excel at both power and speed. Doing both at once similar to the likes of Volcarona and PuP Lopunny is a strong appeal warranting a teamslot. Doing this and already providing every positive that comes with being Zard-X with little necessary to remove its large issue in SR certifies itself as an S rank threat.

Clefable will be the symbol of balance as much as people like to fool themselves in thinking that it has remotely gotten worse. Hoopa-Us presence hasn't faltered Clefables traits, even encouraging the use of more Unaware T-Wave variants for balance to tackle threats such as Manaphy, Serperior, SD Chomp and hinder the progress of certain Dragon Dancers like Mega Altaria. The sentiment from players thinking Clefable has gotten worse is always coming from an offensive player position, when you need to take into account the player pool who aren't solely focused on high octane offense. Being prepped for fairies like the next point about Azumarill, is not being prepared for Clefable. When one asks are you prepped for fairies, it's indicating Clefable as being one of the defining ones in the tier subliminally, players associated to the tier know this, it's almost second nature at this point. It's a much more exclusive fairy because it has a combination of traits that smooths out many balanced builds and cores to succeed in the meta while naturally providing incredible assets in a dragon immunity, hazard immunity with Magic Guard, and Unaware as a fall back for various offensive threats. It is the practical definition of an S rank Pokemon for a balance team / archetype.

Azumarill is part of the new S in my eyes. The increase in Zard-X, Weavile, Heatran, the omni-present usage of sand balance, the lack of actual good counter-play against Azumarill that isn't exploitable to hazards or aren't even solid answers to begin with such as Rotom-W, has put Azumarill in my eyes one of the largest team-building constraints. Counter arguments always include such things as, "well it's slow, it can be revenge killed" when this is much easier said than done. Azumarill is able to create situations through either itself or through its team to guarantee a kill per game. This kill per game aspect comes from its ability to not be part of the typical water and fairy stereotypes associated in handling it cause it sports the traits of both at once, and the freedom and utility to change what it wants to beat and how it supports a team-mate at a much higher level than those of the A+ rank to me. When Mega Venusaur becomes one of the only counters to you and the tier puts themselves in a position to get murdered by a BD or Band Azu, it's time to move the bunny up.

Garchomp is a weird case. Under the current S it's impossible to put it at S, which we've had to refuse everytime it was brought up. You can't exactly put it on the level of Char-X and M-Alt because these two are sort of the extremes of the picture that symbolize an S rank, to the point that from a comparison value people wanted to drop Clefable and thought it was a good idea to have only two megas in S ._. . This is where the change of S comes to more fruition. Tank chomp, Scarf Chomp, SD chomp, and Sash Chomp the combination of these sets is where my justification for S stems from. Each of these sets holds a certain amount of viability on a variety of teams, a variety that applies to just about every single viable archetype. Tankchomp has changed the way so many teams and Pokemon have had to adapt and putting an emphasis on the shift towards specially inclined Pokemon to avoid using contact attackers. It was the beginning of M-Metagross and its decline in fame and even level of brokenness in the eyes of many, the shift towards offensive SD Landorus-T as opposed to Scarf, Wisp Talonflame as its offensive variants became more difficult to use on all teams all the time which wasn't the case before, these are just a few and this only starts on some of the more centralizing Pokemon in the tier not touching upon every single nuance. Tankchomp has maintained consistency even with the rise of threats such as Weavile and Zard-X, while still having the benefits of its offensive variants that we all know and love. Sporting a speed tier that stands above the likes of M-Gard, the Zards, Kyurem-B, basically base 100 and below is what gives it such an edge for a teamslot. There's not a whole lot of elaboration that I think is necessary since many know what it does and know how vital it is to the tier in terms of team-building and threat level.

Manaphy I think should've been S for awhile after much playing, thought, and deliberation. The counterarguments for this one is that it's weak without a Tail Glow and that once again can be revenge killed. So considering all this being said, why is it that Manaphy has been a point of discussion to myself and other council members from a variety of players to be suspected and to many balance and defensive oriented players broken? That's sort of the problem right now with the counter argument assertions, they're contradictory to what a majority of players outside of this thread have spoken upon and seen. Manaphy is the definition of a wall-breaker, it will break something and these scenarios that it does break something are easily found. The tiers slow shift towards a more offensive meta is partially to blame from Manaphy, with Hoopa-U certifying this to what is practically a new meta shift. Manaphy is one the most powerful water types in the tier and it dictates a lot of team-building, dictates a lot of player control, and it not only has the threat level of something top tier but one that is even able to supplement other top tier threats to succeed such as Zard-X. Being broken is questionable, but I don't think being S is hard to consider if we go a different route for S rank and the fact it's such a defining force against the balanced archetype and the way said playstyle has had to adapt, and even then adapting not too well.

So that's my thought of what S should look like. Obviously there's different perception of S but to me that's what I think has enough effectiveness to maintain themselves there. At a later point I'll bring up the other ranks.

I Agree with AM on Manaphy. This thing is a complete monster in the current metagame. its Tail Glow 3 Attacks Set is a nightmare, i have been seeing more people run unaware clefable just because of it. Its very bulky and after you set up a tail glow its amazing its Bulky , fast (very decent speed) , and powerful which is hard to say about just one pokemon. great typing , amazing ability with 2 two of its sets. Stall and Balance is just getting destroyed and it does not stop there. Hyper Offense is still not safe from it. the fact that it still has decent speed and bulk is the problem with people saying " Manaphy is bad vs HO" it can still get damage off or even a kill which is what you guys need to understand. the 3 current S rank pokemon do good vs every playstyle and so does manaphy! its just not its best vs HO.

Azumarill i can't say for sure since im more sure about manaphy but i also agree that its getting better in this meta game which is scary.

 

[viol and bass]

can we put jirachi in a please?

a- is really underselling its capabilities as a defensive steel type. its one of the best switch ins to the lati twins, is a very solid stealth rocker for balance and bulky offense, and its movepool is so damn divers it's unreal. it has a good stab, which, when combined with its ability and potential paralysis support, is deadly to a lot of mons because they simply can't move. furthermore, jirachi has reliable recover in wish, which lets it heal both itself and teammates. jirachi also is one of the better clefable counters out there because it is capable of defeating every non-thunder wave variant while also not being either a) easily worn down, or b) really passive. it is also one of the few switch ins to mega gardevoir that doesn't take up the mega slot (the others being av metagross and spdef skarmory).

that was just its defensive set. its scarf set is really solid because it sports a good speed tier and is also capable of providing healing wish support, which is invaluable for many hyper offense teams. its subtoxic set can be a nightmare for fatter teams, and is absolutely deadly vs the standard ladder stall. i won't go into too much detail, but being able to status a plethora of mons while not being walled by standard steels like scizor or ferrothorn is great (fuck heatran tho :c). finally, jirachi has a pretty good expert belt set that is capable of luring its usualy checks; hippowdon dies to grass knot, icy wind decimates gliscor and garchomp, and if heatran is that much of an issue, hp ground can even be run. its just a solid set that is capable of opening up holes into opposing teams for a teammate such as mega gyarados to sweep much easier.

i honestly think this thing is on par with common steels such as ferrothorn and skarmory, as well as common balance mons like slowbro, so i feel a raise to a is warranted.

also holy crap it's been forever since i've made a detailed post here.

I also want to add that the rare combination of Wish and U-turn on a slowish set seems really nice on paper. It's extremely reliable in that it allows you to actually heal mons who otherwise would be deadweight for most Wish-passers.

 

[Goodra]

I definitely could see Serperior raising to A rank as AM noted in his earlier post. It definitely has it's checks but with those removed it absolutely neuters the other team with it's pseudo Nasty Plot and high speed. Also has some decent support with Glare and Taunt and the SubSeed set actually has it uses as well. I don't know it's exact usage but from my experience I've seen this Pokemon in at least half the battles I go up on which should be a testament how scary this thing can be. Though I guess it could be argued that A- is just fine for it as well. Either way I see it remaining prominent in the current meta with the raise of mons like Manaphy and the continued use of Azumarill.

 

[i ran out of names]

torn-t's like the most overrated pokemon ever o my god

like u have to rely on two 70% moves most of the time and half the time the nikka just gets batted wit a scald and loses its effectiveness. The opportunity cost of using torn-t is legitimately not being able to use any other pokemon. defensively speaking, torn-t only /really/ /definitely/ soft checks gengar and serperior (and venusaur i guess if it ain't drop the thun thun thun with sludge bomb [other grass types aren't threatening enough to retain a defensive niche for a mon.... do you really think 'hey i need an amoonguss check' when making a team??]) so it's more niche than wanting to toss torn-t on every squad imaginable. not only is it liable to miss and fuck you over, but it has an amalgam of 4mss and item issues wanting all of av, lo, iron tail, heat wave, superpower, taunt, etc. this mon is like the epitome of an "annoyance" but typically not a "threat" and half the time it just sits there hitting knock off on the switch on suboptimal teams where another pokemon would be better in its place. like seriously ugh why is this mon so popular

I don't think that torn should go to s but did you just say it soft checks m-venosaur and serp? No it survives a +4 hp rock from serp even with rocks and ohkos with hurricane and not to mention it has regenerator, great bulk, amazing speed, and hits decently hard. The only thing keeping this back is rocks and it needs just a tad more power.

I definitely could see Serperior raising to A rank as AM noted in his earlier post. It definitely has it's checks but with those removed it absolutely neuters the other team with it's pseudo Nasty Plot and high speed. Also has some decent support with Glare and Taunt and the SubSeed set actually has it uses as well. I don't know it's exact usage but from my experience I've seen this Pokemon in at least half the battles I go up on which should be a testament how scary this thing can be. Though I guess it could be argued that A- is just fine for it as well. Either way I see it remaining prominent in the current meta with the raise of mons like Manaphy and the continued use of Azumarill.

I agree 100%, wear down it's counters and it's deadly. Not to mention it can clean sweep if your opponent has sticky web or if you make the god play of switching into a icy wind.

AraEDIT: Don't doublepost

 

[Josh]

To the guys who replied to me about m-swampert, you're right I was wrong about some info, I apologize. Anyways, moving on...

S Rank

Agreed.

Whoever argued Wobb to move up because I can't find post

I agree completely and am very happy it was brought up. Trapping is so amazing, and gothitelle is quite different as a trapper so please don't bring that up. I actually can't think of something that can OHKO it, and it's a practically guaranteed kill on ANYTHING you want if played right. The magic coat/encore/counter/mirror coat/lefties set is the common one afaik, but it can also run encore/counter/mirror coat/destiny bond/custap berry. This set can get 2 kills if played right quite often, or at LEAST guarantee the kill you were struggling to get. Both are viable and fit on different teams, and both work. It's definitely worthy of a raise. Wobb is a solid B mon imo.



On that note of trappers I nom Dugtrio to rise from C to C+ personally. It's fragile, sure, but it's speed tier is very very good and it can trapkill a good portion of the meta. Sash on it along with reversal/eq/se/sucker punch is a powerful and good set.

calcs for fun

252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 218-258 (73.4 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 236-282 (86.7 - 103.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Dugtrio Reversal (200 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 632-744 (232.3 - 273.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 218-258 (90.4 - 107%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 356-420 (98.6 - 116.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Dugtrio Reversal (200 BP) vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 300-354 (92 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO if it's the air balloon variant, it obviously OHKO's any other tran.
252 Atk Dugtrio Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 420-496 (116.9 - 138.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO (this isn't trapping, but it can work)

Those are all of the OU mons in S/A+ that dugtrio traps and revenges, if sash is broken it still takes all of them besides bisharp.
It also beats megazam (might take predicting though, whether to sucker punch or eq if you predict sub), offensive ferro wish sash, zard-y with sash, kyub with sash, manectric with sash, ttar, and weavile with sash. Also beats hoopa-u, but I am too lazy to manually calc it because it's not on calc still. It fairs fairly well against the rest of the meta as well. And of course, it can revenge a whole lot more if they're relatively weakened. All good dugtrios have -def or -spd and 0 def/spd ivs, because once he breaks that sash reversal is a monster.
I understand it's not amazing, but it kills a quite large portion of the meta because of its quite good 120 base speed and good enough coverage, especially with 200 bp reversal. Works very well with hazard control, because of how useful that sash is (more fragile than hoopa-u's physical side lol). It's definitely worthy of C+ imo with everything that it deals with. I think most of us can agree it is definitely at least on par with the mons in that tier in terms of usefulness.

 

[blank]

I disagree with this Wobbuffet nom (wherever it came from). I've used Wobbuffet A LOT; I've built a lot of teams with it (some of my favorites too). Anyways, Wobbuffet definitely doesn't deserve to rise.

...and it's a practically guaranteed kill on ANYTHING you want if played right. The magic coat/encore/counter/mirror coat/lefties set is the common one afaik, but it can also run encore/counter/mirror coat/destiny bond/custap berry. This set can get 2 kills if played right quite often, or at LEAST guarantee the kill you were struggling to get. Both are viable and fit on different teams, and both work. It's definitely worthy of a raise. Wobb is a solid B mon imo.

The issue here is that Wobbuffet (and STAG shit in general) is really unreliable; there's a huge risk factor & "playing right" isn't all you can do to make up for that. This risk factor I'm talking about is present against almost every offensive Pokemon in the tier that isn't running a Choice item or four attacks that are all Physical/Special. With mixed attackers and anything carrying a status move, there's lots of "50/50s" (for lack of a better term). You might be thinking "can't I just Encore?"... no, not always. Encore definitely helps to alleviate these situations; you can lock something into a rather harmless status move allowing you to bring in a Pokemon of your own that can set up, force the opposing Pokemon out, etc.. However, you risk using Encore on an attack that will do TOO much damage to you. This is especially true with mixed attackers who can weaken you to the point of only getting rid of one Pokemon (or maybe even none at all). On top of this, more defensive/passive Pokemon can also be risky with Wobbuffet; your Wobbuffet getting burned or Toxic'd or Leech Seeded due to a "50/50" with Mirror Coat/Counter is definitely not appreciated, and can whittle Wobbuffet down pretty easily. This unreliability also applies to Custap + Destiny Bond. To put it simply: Custap range can fuck you over. I can't even say how many times I was just under Custap range, thus making that Custap + DBond combo useless. This can be caused by the stuff I said above like taking too much damage due to a 50/50 and/or getting Toxic'd, Burned, etc., but there are other factors to this as well. Hazards are definitely a nuisance here and to the longevity of your Wobbuffet in general. I may be biased because more of my experience with Wob is on Wobboffense rather than more passive playstyles, but taking just barely the wrong damage can fuck over that Custap range (and again is unreliable as fuck). Another HUGE factor here is min/max rolls on moves. Wob is the only Pokemon that comes to mind where you sometimes WANT your opponent to get the higher roll because the lower one doesn't put you in Custap range. tl;dr- Wobbuffet is a little too unreliable and a little too "luck" reliant to rise to B-

I could go on about other things like shit that's immune to Mirror Coar / Counter and how Taunt is a major pain in the ass for it, but I think that stuff is rather self explanatory for the most part.

 

[Clone]

serious question: why does taunt keep getting brought up with wobbuffet? it is literally never going to come in on a pokemon that carries it unless it's something really random like a taunt keldeo or thundurus or something. even then, counter and mirror coat can still be used and immunities don't really mean much when wobbuffet is the one doing the trapping, not the other way around (which means it can simple switch out). and even then, wobb will have done its job because nothing can come in on it unless its a revenge kill.

i'm relatively neutral on the nom but this stuff really bothers me so i had to post.

 

[Halcyon.]

I do agree with just about every change AM suggested in his POTW thread, and with those changes, I think the higher tiers would be largely set for the time being. By changing them, we could instead focus on the lower tiers, which I think are pretty wonky and should be switched up a bit. I would change them to be as follows:

Hide

C Rank:

C+ Rank

(C->C+) This thing is not terrible, certainly not as bad as Goodra, so it should rise to C rank. I would use this mon about as often as I would use Thundy-T, so it makes sense for them to be the same rank.

(D->C+) I will never understand what people have against this mon. Its AV set is easily the single best Lati checks in the game. It is strong, has Pursuit, checks Clef, Serp, Diancie, Gardevoir, Lati, and others. People see Metagross and instantly think "if it's not mega it's bad," but AV meta is still very threatening. I should know, sugarhigh beats me with it consistently.

C Rank

(C- ->C) Not as bad as people think, and certainly not as bad as Forretress. I would put it in the same tier as the other Megas in this tier, as I would probably use it sooner than Mega Absol, but probably the same as I would use something like Chansey, i.e. only on certain niche stall teams.

(B- ->C) Seriously what is this doing in B-, I would use AV Metagross a million times before using Bronzong. Passive as fuck and doesn't even relaly beat anything besides Excadrill due to its lack of recovery (Sub SD Lando can set up on it if it gets intimidated)

(D->C) This thing hits ridiculously hard and doesn't have the nasty Rock typing that Terrakion has, meaning that it has a few perks over it. It also has access to Knock Off, better SAtk for HP Ice, etc. But the main reason to use this is Reckless LO HJK, which does insane damage.

(D->C) Some might look at this and think that it is simply an inferior Landorus-I, and they would be right, bt it's no so inferior that it should sit all the way in D rank. It is certainly more on par with the mons in this tier than some of the others. I would personally put it higher, but I'm not entirely sure its on the same level as Mega Amph or Pidgeot so C it goes.

(C+->C) This thing is a neat check to Zard accept that it has no recovery and gets fucked over by WIsp sets, so you're almost always better off going with Hippowdon. It has more offensive presence I suppose, but Rock Ground is terrible typing and it doesn't really do anything Hippo doesn't do better. Not on par with the other C+ mons so it should be in C rank.

(C- ->C) I would use this thing about as often as I would use Gourgeist, Krook, etc. and by that I mean that it is largely outclassed by a very similar mon in all but a select few circumstances, but those teams that do use it well make it work, so it should be C

C- Rank

(C->C-) Trick Room mons should all be in this rank. TR is an ok gimmick, but it's just that: a gimmick. You win with it because your opponent was not prepared for it, and that's all. A strong Taunt mon, like Gengar, will shut down every TR setter, rendering the whole team useless. Certain mons like Reuniclus and Victini can pull off TR sets on their own that have merits, but dedicated TR mons like this are bad and should be C- rank.

(C+->C-) Lost a ton of viability when Lando was banned. Using this thing is like holding up a sign that says "please switch in your Bisharp, Scizor, or Tyranitar! Also it has the same issue as Cofag when it comes to the TR sets. More on par with stuff like Rose than Gourgeist or P2.

(D->C-) It's interesting, to say the least. Specs, CM, AV, LO Relic song are all sets I've used and though we all like to make fun of TRC and Jukain for approving it in early XY, it's not as bad as we all thought (sorry about that btw :p). LO sets make for ok cleaners when prio is gone, where as CM AV and Specs work as great Gengar checks, and can fire off powerful Psychic/Normal moves.

(D->C-) This thing is not outclassed by Celebi at all. I don't think people really understand that Leaf Storm is a million times worse than Seed Flare, ESPECIALLY on a mon that is Pursuit weak, but somehow people still use that Argument. LO Seed Flare hits very hard, and can threaten mons like Lati, which would otherwise be decent switch ins to it. The advantages it has over Serp are obvious, better bulk, more immediate power, and access to better coverage.

(C->C-) This mon is always super underwhelming when I use it. It seems to be on par with Roserade so I put them in the same ranking. Not super passionate about this one though.

D Rank:

(C->D) This mon is bad and should be D rank. Never in your team building should you have no mega, have a CM Lati, and then decide to use this mon. If you do, you have found the holy grail of teams, because there are so many mega Pokemon with so much more to bring to a team than Mega Lati brings. Regular CM Latios is perfectly fine and lets you use a whole host of other options. But ti should still be ranked (all Mega mons should imo), so D it is.

(C- ->D) Even as far as TR mons go, Pangoro is pretty niche. I would sooner use Exploud or Camerupt before this thing. Nor horrible, but TR is niche enough as it is, and this thing doesn't provide much defensive synergy outside of being a decent switch-in to Ttar (though Superpower still destroys it).

(C- ->D) This thing has never been good and it, like the other DDers in the low tiers, should be D rank. I would actually sooner use Salamence or Haxorus than this thing. It's really that bad.

EDIT: Also I really don't encourage everyone else to start making giant changes lists like this. It will just clutter things up and honestly people who do it will look extremely entitled (myself included, I probably look like a huge douche for suggesting this many changes). I only posted this because I feel like there's too much focus on the high tiers right now and also AM brought up my interest in his own changes so I figured maybe my opinion mattered a little :x

but yeah please don't emulate me. I'm a jackass.

 

[That Grammar Terrorist]

My problem with wob is lets take your example into play i need a keldeo counter well why not get a mega-venosaur or a azumarill that after useful after said pokemon is eliminated for me there's no reason to run wobufet because imo wob can be replaced by a good portion of pokemon that do it's job of countering just as good not to mention it can give two of the biggest treats in the meta a free double being hoopa and taunt gengar which not much can switch safely into either.

Note: I know taunt gengar isn't meta defining but on the current extremely offensive meta not much appreciates switching into gengar.

Wobbuffet shouldn't be used to counter Keldeo. You're supposed to be using it to trap and kill it or encore it into a status move for something to set up on it.

To answer the "why not get a mega-Venusaur or Azumarill" question is so offensive teams can sacrifice it to gain free momentum. Wobbuffet is commonly employed by offensive teams, so Mega Venusaur is out of the question, while Azumarill and Wobbuffet are incomparable for roles.
If you're using Mega-Venusaur to counter Keldeo, you'd have to lose momentum to switch it in and out to stop Keldeo, where as you can get a free switch in by sacrificing your weakened wobbuffet.

As some other posters have stated, you don't need to keep Wobbuffet alive forever, assuming you've used it correctly, it has already done what it is supposed to by the time it faints.

Also, why would you be switching in or leaving Wobbuffet in on a Taunt Gengar or Hoopa in the first place? Have you even used Wobbuffet or are you theorymonning? If they're switching in after you trapped and eliminated something, then you've probably already done your job and have a weakened Wobbuffet, so you might as well sacrifice it and bring in something that threatens the aforementioned Pokémon to gain free momentum as they flee in terror.

I'm on board with Wobbuffet for B-. I do have some replays, unfortunately, they aren't from showdown.

EDIT:

(C- ->D) This thing has never been good and it, like the other DDers in the low tiers, should be D rank. I would actually sooner use Salamence or Haxorus than this thing. It's really that bad.

I thought Zygarde's main use was its para shuffler set or Sub + Coil?

 

[Josh]

What -Clone- said, wobb choses who he comes in on. That's his whole deal. If he manages to revenge someone succesfully which is nearly always, he's not going to stay in 90% of the time provided he has the HP left to justify switching. You can't just send in taunt on wobb, because he gets sent in on YOU. Like -clone- said, if you happen to guess wrong and opponent does have taunt for whatever reason, you are the one trapping. Switching out isn't a problem.

Again, wobb choses who he comes in on. He's generally used to take out the biggest threat to your team because that's what he is good at. It's simple. If you're a wobb user, calc what moves the other mon likely has (bar super gimmick sets like special ttar). If you are guaranteed to live 2 of the most powerful, encore first just in case you predicted wrong. This is the scenario at least 80% of the time, because there really aren't that many mons that can 2hko wobb unboosted, and most of the ones that can aren't ones you'd send wobb in on anyways. If not, you just have to go with it. And if wobb can pick up the kill and drop into custap range, he can switch out and come back later for the free dbond or encore depending on the situation.

Wobbuffet shouldn't be used to counter Keldeo. You're supposed to be using it to trap and kill it or encore it into a status move for something to set up on it.

To answer the "why not get a mega-Venusaur or Azumarill" question is so offensive teams can sacrifice it to gain free momentum. Wobbuffet is commonly employed by offensive teams, so Mega Venusaur is out of the question, while Azumarill and Wobbuffet are incomparable for roles.
If you're using Mega-Venusaur to counter Keldeo, you'd have to lose momentum to switch it in and out to stop Keldeo, where as you can get a free switch in by sacrificing your weakened wobbuffet.

As some other posters have stated, you don't need to keep Wobbuffet alive forever, assuming you've used it correctly, it has already done what it is supposed to by the time it faints.

Also, why would you be switching in or leaving Wobbuffet in on a Taunt Gengar or Hoopa in the first place? Have you even used Wobbuffet or are you theorymonning? If they're switching in after you trapped and eliminated something, then you've probably already done your job and have a weakened Wobbuffet, so you might as well sacrifice it and bring in something that threatens the aforementioned Pokémon to gain free momentum as they flee in terror.

This as well. Specifically out of this though:

you don't need to keep Wobbuffet alive forever, assuming you've used it correctly, it has already done what it is supposed to by the time it faints.

Like I said. Wobb's job is generally to take whatever threatens your team the most, trap it, and kill it. If it does more, which it often does that's a bonus. Often wobb will be in custap range if using that set, so switching out is the best thing you can do after killing. That way you have a blanket check later in the game. Something is setting up and killing you? Hello priority encore, and then switch to something that can kill it now that it doesn't have to take a hit. Something is choiced or AV/some other mono attacking set? Welcome dbond!

B- isn't really pushing it in my opinion.

 

[Karxrida]

Totally in agreement with Halcyon., especially concerning Meinshao. Reckless LO High Jump Kick lets it nuke switch-ins while access to Knock Off means Psychics are hard-pressed to switch into it when they would cockblock Mega Medicham. If you so choose, Regenerator means you don't have to worry about the recoil from missing since you'll get your health back anyway and can try again later, plus it make Meinshao extremely hard to wear down without Spikes thanks to the Stealth Rock resistance. The Speed tier is also pretty sweet, avoiding the ties with Base 100s that Medicham has to deal with while also beating non-Scarf Garchomp (and if you're super cheeky you can run HP Ice for it and Lando). Overall it's a pretty underrated mon that deserves to be higher than D, since it isn't garbage by any stretch of the definition.

 

[AM]

I moved Cress down to C-. It's dogshit and was so obvious the moment I asked team for an opinion.

More discussion points by Henry and TDK.

Henry:
landot to A
hippowdon to a+
volcarona b+
mew to a
medicham to a-/a
tangrowth to b
tentacruel to b-
cresselia to low c/c-
rotom-h to c/c+
tentacruel to b-

dont give a fuck about d rank

[8/9/15, 12:47:34 AM] Henry: : D
[8/9/15, 12:47:41 AM] Henry: DONT MOVE BRELOOM DOWN LOL

TDK:
Manaphy A+ -> S
Mega Latias A -> B+
Mega Slowbro A- -> A
Medicham B+ -> A-
Scolipede B+ -> B
Mega Gallade B+ -> B - iffy
Feraligatr B -> B+
Gastrodon B- -> B - iffy
Tangrowth B- -> B
Infernape B- -> C+ - iffy
Heracross C+ - C
Kyurem C -> C+
Rotom-H C- -> C+
Regular Metagross -> C

btw if you want me to explain any of those lmk - tdk

trc:
[8/9/15, 12:48:02 AM] AM: trc
[8/9/15, 12:48:08 AM] AM: if you got any opinions speak now
[8/9/15, 12:48:10 AM] AM: before I post to ask thread
[8/9/15, 12:48:56 AM] trc: I have an opinion
[8/9/15, 12:48:58 AM] trc: am post a picture

So there you go as well.

 

[blank]

serious question: why does taunt keep getting brought up with wobbuffet? it is literally never going to come in on a pokemon that carries it unless it's something really random like a taunt keldeo or thundurus or something. even then, counter and mirror coat can still be used and immunities don't really mean much when wobbuffet is the one doing the trapping, not the other way around (which means it can simple switch out). and even then, wobb will have done its job because nothing can come in on it unless its a revenge kill.
(
i'm relatively neutral on the nom but this stuff really bothers me so i had to post.

That's mostly it... your opponent carrying an uncommon/semi-uncommon/unexpected Taunter or a surprise Taunt in general can hurt. Also, Taunters put lots of pressure on Wobbuffet; a stallbreaker with Taunt coming in on Wob can force it out, meaning your opponent may have the upper hand even if Wobbuffet did it's job and killed something.

 

[That Grammar Terrorist]

That's mostly it... your opponent carrying an uncommon/semi-uncommon/unexpected Taunter or a surprise Taunt in general can hurt. Also, Taunters put lots of pressure on Wobbuffet; a stallbreaker with Taunt coming in on Wob can force it out, meaning your opponent may have the upper hand even if Wobbuffet did it's job and killed something.

Can't the same be said of any support pokemon? Even offensive pokemon like TG Manaphy are crippled by surprise taunts, yet, that doesn't hold Manaphy back from being considered for S. Why does it apply to Wobbuffet specifically? Wobbuffet still has Counter+Coat, so it isn't overly passive without encore. You can also switch out and just kill something later with Custap + Destiny Bond.

Once Wobbuffet did its job and killed something, then what's the point? Unless you're dealing with something that carries a setup move in addition to taunt, such as Mega Houndoom, but even then, you shouldn't be using Wobbuffet as your sole safety net.