np: Doubles OU Stage 3 - Hate to Love You - SKYMIN HAS BEEN BANNED

[Pocket]

I don't see any reason in particular why it should be as simple as clicking Air Slash to let in something that could dominate a situation, not to mention that putting Kyurem-B on any team with Skymin makes rain and sun far less threatening, which are probably some of the best ways to get rid of Skymin, not mentioning that Landorus-T already faces off well against sun and Skymin can do ok against rain still.

...have you literally not seen the latest highlight seasonal match kamikaze vs Tesung? LOL

Also yes, slapping a Skymin isn't an auto-win against TR: croven vs talkingtree

Skymin + Keldeo + Kyu-B + Kanga + Lando-T / whatever isn't even an auto-win against goodstuffs team: DaAwesomeDude vs a semi cute people

Skymin requires skill to use (aka competitive). It's not an easy hax button that lets you cheese your way to victory. Banking on Air Slash flinches, even when there are safer plays, are easy ways to have your Skymin lose its sash and die.

A better player beats a worse player, despite Skymin - nothing is wrong with that. A better player can outplay in a way that limits Skymin's Serene Grace effect, which implies that counterplay do in fact exist. Anybody who says otherwise is literally talking out of their butt.

 

[Confide]

As a person who hates the serene grace flinch mons such ass togekiss and jirachi, I am 100% for banning skymin. Most people know that Doubles ou requires more skill than the other official tiers, but spamming air slash and getting a flinch isn't "skill". I'm not saying that it can't be handled, but it definitely is uncompetitive and seems very unhealthy for the meta. (Please don't hate me if im wrong, im still relatively new to the tier ;-;)

 

[KyleCole]

As a person who hates the serene grace flinch mons such ass togekiss and jirachi, I am 100% for banning skymin. Most people know that Doubles ou requires more skill than the other official tiers, but spamming air slash and getting a flinch isn't "skill". I'm not saying that it can't be handled, but it definitely is uncompetitive and seems very unhealthy for the meta. (Please don't hate me if im wrong, im still relatively new to the tier ;-;)

Food for thought: If you're outplaying your opponent and have them in a losing position, but then your opponent wins because of an Air Slash flinch or Seed Flare SDef drop, did you really outplay them? @everyone

 

[skillzfodayz]

After reading most of these comments, I have to say that the metagame needs to remove Skymin as the main problem is that there are too little ways to effectively check it and it has so much freedom to change the direction of the game. Regardless of the tier, one turn can change the entire outcome of a match and Skymin has this ability all too easily.
While imo Skymin lacks different sets, it's one set (focus sash w/ protect, seed flare, air slash, earth power) is more than enough to do it's job+more.
With the slightest of team support, Skymin can become a mon that has strong influence in the outcome of the match, even if it hardly does anything.
I understand why it could stay and it's not completely destorying the metagame, but doubles ou would be better without Skymin, so ban.

 

[Confide]

Food for thought: If you're outplaying your opponent and have them in a losing position, but then your opponent wins because of an Air Slash flinch or Seed Flare SDef drop, did you really outplay them? @everyone

is that a rhetorical question

 

[Digital Sound]

This is sort of my first time doing this, so don't bash me and get the wrong idea because I will try my absolute best to be straightforward as possible, so any way let's get this started.

Firstly, I just don't know why some of you people are stating that it is probably considered (which is not) a non-competitive Pokemon. I don't know how I can explain this without making myself look so dumb, but Shaymin-S being non-competitive isn't the problem, I just feel like some of you people who don't know that much about the metagame clearly misunderstood this Pokemon. Sure, it can be rather obnoxious to deal with this Pokemon causing flinches and drop all the time, which can pretty much leave bunch of holes through the opponent's teams, but I feel like that pretty much all has to do with the luck factor. I like the way how Audiosurfer explain that hax can be an up-changing point throughout the game, whether you're stuck in a tight position where it pretty much all comes down to hoping you can win the game with luck on your side, and that's fine basically because no one won't call you and unskilled player because you hax your opponent to victory in the end. I feel like that people need to accept the fact that luck is a part of this game whether or not you don't care about and if you're just one of those stubborn players that think hax are just cheap and lame way to win a battle, unless you're dealing with one of those players who try to abuse hax and win the game from there on. An old friend of mine told me that you shouldn't try to abuse hax just to win a match because clearly that strategy could possibly fail and make you look even more stupider and an unskilled player, just by trying to force luck to be on your side (which you clearly can't do). Finally, to sum all of this up, I hope you could at least think twice before deciding whether upon voting for this Pokemon to be banned, or just not ban it at all. I'm not trying to persuade you people (which I'm obviously bad at), but to be honest, I feel like the vote is basically up to you people.

 

[MegaMasher]

I've never played with Shaymin-S in OU doubles...I actually didn't even know it was allowed in it! XD Myself and a friend of mine did a collab to discuss this subject.

To be honest, even through discussing it and thinking very very hard about both sides of the spectrum, I am still literally 50/50, right down the middle on this whole thing so I'll talk about both sides briefly.

Pro-Ban:
- Serene grace with 2 moves that become broken IMO with the boost from it
- Base 127 speed is very unique and it outpaces everything up to Talonflame (even though gale Wings lol)
- 120 SpA with Life Orb is very respectable for Shaymin-S

No-Ban:
- 100/75/75 bulk isn't the best and with possible Life Orb recoil, it's life diminishes rather quick
- weak to common wide spread moves like: Heat Wave, Rock Slide, Icy Wind
- Can be Focus Fired on with the combo of Fake Out + a powerful attack (that can happen to anything though)
- Weak to Priority ice Shard (so are some other mons that are less OP than Shaymin-Sky

These are all just quick notes, nothing too detailed. I am very much open for discussion smogon brethren :]

 

[Derivatives]

Okay big question: when the guy gets lucky with the Air Slash flinches at the end of the game after all the misplays, and the best play was to go for the Air Slash flinch and he gets it, how is this just acceptable?
Sure he made one right play but he probably did a bunch of screwed up plays to get him to need it. It's still incredibly wrong to just pick up a win after being an idiot the rest of the match. You can literally stop the bad players from getting lucky as often by banning Shaymin-Sky. Sure there will still be some guys who get like 10 Rock Slide flinches, but the Air Slash flinches are controlled - the player gets to pick who it will flinch rather than clicking Rock Slide and hoping for the best. It's complete bullshit to talk about what was in the control of the players in the impending victory ahead, because they're only using what's available to them, and that base 127 speed Air Slash flinch is available to them. Technically, was he a good player in the sense that he made the right play leading him to the win? Yes. Was he a good player in the sense that even without the Air Slash flinch, he would have won? Not in the slightest if he needed it. The Air Slash flinch demon was just available to him to effortlessly win most late game scenarios, but without that the player probably becomes a lot worse.

Don't get this post wrong in any way, it's not just the retarded end game that makes it broken. If it were that, we'd probably suspect something like Jirachi (lol). It's a combination of a Pokémon that practically provides Fake Tears to a Life Orb base 129 Special Attack Keldeo, almost perfectly supporting Keldeo in stopping lots of its checks before Air Slash flinches and Seed Flare drops, creating free turns effortlessly, and having a choice of "who am I going to flinch this time?" in your end game scenarios.

edit:

...have you literally not seen the latest highlight seasonal match kamikaze vs Tesung? LOL

Also yes, slapping a Skymin isn't an auto-win against TR: croven vs talkingtree

Skymin + Keldeo + Kyu-B + Kanga + Lando-T / whatever isn't even an auto-win against goodstuffs team: DaAwesomeDude vs a semi cute people

I counted at least 3 Skymin checks on the opposing team every replay including one anti Skymin archetype, 10/10

tl;dr I'm still going to complain about luck because it's a huge issue that some of the most respected players on the council are completely accepting as an "okay" fundamental of the game, probably because Air Slash flinch abuser: Shaymin-Sky has been around since the beginning of DOU.

 

[Bughouse]

I counted at least 3 Skymin checks on the opposing team every replay

then perhaps it's not so hard to accommodate...

 

[ForgottenOnes]

I completely agree with It Is Guest . As he said, having Skymin on your team basically giving yourself a second chance at winning by clicking Air Slash and flinching everything. Honestly, this is just unfair. There shouldn't be a mon just there to reliably "hax" the other team. To be honest, having anything with a percentage chance of over 50% happen shouldn't be considered "hax" anymore. I mean its more than 50%, it should happen at least 1 time out of 2.

Let me put Skymin's hax in a different view. When I build teams (I build shitty teams, pm me if u want a shitty team), I think of each of the 6 Pokemon slots as a chance to beat my opponent. You have to buy that slot by placing a Pokemon there. And when these 6 Pokemon work together, they can win. Now, when u "buy" Skymin, you are basically "buying" "reliable" "hax". Lets not forget to mention the quick speed. Now even moreso in Doubles, you can create combos with mons, unlike in singles. Now with I dunno Rage Powder from Amoonguss, Skymin is almost untouchable (with the exception of moves that hit both mons). Now when you think of it like this, the damage output of your opponent's 2 mons are decreased substantially basically rendering 1 mon 60% useless. Yep. Too OP. Ban Skymin pls.

tl;dr: By putting Skymin on your team you are literally choosing a Pokemon that gives you auto-"hax" (60% - Air slash / 80% - Seed Flare). Too fast, too strong. >probably on steroids imo. Ban pls

 

[megacyber]

I'm noticing a lot of people talking about Skymin's Air Slash flinches happening in an end-game situation, when usually, they happen mid to early game, in my experience. A timely flinch on say, an Amoonguss going for a Spore on Skymin's partner can completely change the outcome of the game.

 

[TGMD]

Shaymin-Sky is the fastest viable Pokemon in the doubles metagame other than Mega Gengar and it has access to a STAB 60% flinch move coming off base 120 Special Attack. In a tier where there's literally 1 good scarf Pokemon and Ice Shard is pretty uncommon, you're essentially almost always going to be moving after it and just banking on breaking through odds that aren't in your favour. In addition, because of Skymin's obscene power, it rarely needs more than a single flinch on any one Pokemon, 2HKOing the majority of the metagame with ease, making the odds of beating it even more astonishing. Not to mention, it has a literally perfect partner in Quick Guard Keldeo. I know this is basically just a reiteration of most "Skymin is uncompetitive" arguments, but that's because there are very clear reasons why it's broken that everyone is aware of and I don't really think I need to write an essay to explain why a blatantly stupid mon is stupid.

 

[Yellow Paint]

Okay big question: when the guy gets lucky with the Air Slash flinches at the end of the game after all the misplays, and the best play was to go for the Air Slash flinch and he gets it, how is this just acceptable?
Sure he made one right play but he probably did a bunch of screwed up plays to get him to need it. It's still incredibly wrong to just pick up a win after being an idiot the rest of the match. You can literally stop the bad players from getting lucky as often by banning Sure there will still be some guys who get like 10 Rock Slide flinches, but the Air Slash flinches are controlled - the player gets to pick who it will flinch rather than clicking Rock Slide and hoping for the best. It's complete bullshit to talk about what was in the control of the players in the impending victory ahead, because they're only using what's available to them, and that base 127 speed Air Slash flinch is available to them. Technically, was he a good player in the sense that he made the right play leading him to the win? Yes. Was he a good player in the sense that even without the Air Slash flinch, he would have won? Not in the slightest if he needed it. The Air Slash flinch demon was just available to him to effortlessly win most late game scenarios, but without that the player probably becomes a lot worse.

If someone made "a bunch of screwed up plays", they are not going to suddenly win after a single endgame air slash flinch. Games are fast enough that if you have four bad turns, you've already lost. Skymin is uncompetitive if a person who was clearly losing can win with rng, but that just isn't so. You're overexaggerating the effects of hax on a match, and also the fact that someone who flinches with skymin must be a bad player.

Another thing, you're assuming your own definition of a good player. What makes a skymin user any worse of a player than someone who needs to not get flinched to win, or needs to hit a stone edge? If you brought yourself into a situation where you have a significant chance of losing, you did not bring yourself into a winning position, and have no entitlement to "deserving" the win.

Edit:

Now with I dunno Rage Powder from Amoonguss, Skymin is almost untouchable (with the exception of moves that hit both mons). Now when you think of it like this, the damage output of your opponent's 2 mons are decreased substantially basically rendering 1 mon 60% useless. Yep. Too OP. Ban Skymin pls.

Mence+redirection at its finest.

 

[Derivatives]

If someone made "a bunch of screwed up plays", they are not going to suddenly win after a single endgame air slash flinch. Games are fast enough that if you have four bad turns, you've already lost. Skymin is uncompetitive if a person who was clearly losing can win with rng, but that just isn't so. You're overexaggerating the effects of hax on a match, and also the fact that someone who flinches with skymin must be a bad player.

By no means do I call a Skymin user a bad player. It's just that the bad player is notably capable of using a Skymin and getting a fair portion of luck to rule over a skillfully played game on the part of the opponent, and it doesn't even have to be the bad player in that scenario. If you're the good player with Skymin facing some guy on the ladder that has no idea what he's doing and somehow puts himself in a better position without even realizing it, you can so easily get a necessary flinch and get the win.

By this I also don't mean that one single Air Slash flinch causes the end of the game. It can end some, but it certainly won't happen often. However, getting more than one flinch that is necessary for the end of the game actually has a decent chance of happening. Just getting two flinches is as simple as a 32.49% chance, three is a 18.5193% chance, four is a 10.556001% chance, etc. One in three times, which is tremendously high and very, very ridiculous, you will get two possibly vital flinches. One in ten times you will get four flinches - not seeming to be all that high, that's still going to happen quite a lot.

 

[Climbing Higher]

I think, it is actually hard, to contribute new points after 140 posts about Skymin, but I can still try to share my thoughts about Shaymin-Sky.
Whenever I encounter a Skymin, I´m not that afraid, even though I use tr most of the time. Sure, it can flinch a mon of mine, but because we are in doubles, I can potentially take it out with my other mon. Also it has the enough mentioned drawbacks of its fragility, the potential to miss, need of speed control and finally the problem, that you just can´t entirely rely on hax.

My personal experience with Skymin is, that I´m almost never in a situation, where I can combine a good play with the flinching chance, leaving the user the decision of hoping on hax or making solid moves. With this in mind, I think it is - at least in the more competitive meta - not a problem. Of course it can be annoying, but definitely not banworthy and how often decides a flinch a match? Losing to hax happens a lot in other ways with parahax or crits and after all it´s the rng which just belongs to Pokemon.

In my opinion Skymin is not uncompetitive and I will vote no ban.

 

[Big_Danny_Mason]

Food for thought: If you're outplaying your opponent and have them in a losing position, but then your opponent wins because of an Air Slash flinch or Seed Flare SDef drop, did you really outplay them? @everyone

Lets say we are in a 1v1 situation of scarf lando t vs mega metagross, with the both mons being down to where the next hit will ko them. As the lando owner, you click earthquake, and think that you have won and the game is over. Instead, the metagross uses bullet punch and you lose. Now were you outplayed or was the opponent just lucky to have bullet punch on this particular metagross? The reality is that, while you certainly had a strong chance of the metagross not carrying bullet punch, the possibility of it is something that you should have been aware of and should have planned accordingly, and you were outplayed. Along this same line of thought, its rational to think that not being prepared for an air slash flinch or Seed Flare drop is not planning accordingly. While I wouldn't go as far as to say if you lose to one of these than you were outplayed, its a possibility that you should be prepared for and plan accordingly.

 

[Luckstard.]

Lets say we are in a 1v1 situation of scarf lando t vs mega metagross, with the both mons being down to where the next hit will ko them. As the lando owner, you click earthquake, and think that you have won and the game is over. Instead, the metagross uses bullet punch and you lose. Now were you outplayed or was the opponent just lucky to have bullet punch on this particular metagross?

None. The user using Metagross just prepared for this kind of situation. Bullet Punch is actually a good move on Metagross for that reason. It's not luck, it's not outplaying, it's just a situation there was nothing you could have done. That's all.

The reality is that, while you certainly had a strong chance of the metagross not carrying bullet punch, the possibility of it is something that you should have been aware of and should have planned accordingly, and you were outplayed.

Being outplayed actually means your opponent played better than you, making the good predictions on you. You don't get outplayed because you went down to a Lando-T vs Metagross. It's depending of the whole match, not that single turn. And if the user using Lando-T was playing the whole battle not being aware he could loose to BP Metagross, then he just played bad.

Along this same line of thought, its rational to think that not being prepared for an air slash flinch or Seed Flare drop is not planning accordingly. While I wouldn't go as far as to say if you lose to one of these than you were outplayed, its a possibility that you should be prepared for and plan accordingly.

You can play better and put you in a position where your Landorus-T does not loose to BP Metagross, by keeping him alive for example.

You can't play better to deal with an Air Slash flinch. If your check to Shaymin is slower, if he got flinched 6 times in a row, no matter how good you played your battle, you lost.

So basically, the only game plan giving you the chance to win vs Shaymin is to keep alive your mons that are faster and able to KO him (and also able to take a hit, because Shaymin has a sash and hurts pretty hard). Due to Shaymin speed tiers it's kinda hard to have a lot of mons faster than him, and depending of the battle, you might have to risk it before.

Not even mentioning all the things that can happen during battles making this even harder.

 

[Big_Danny_Mason]

I mean, i think you are misunderstanding what i'm trying to say. The point I'm trying to make is that you need to be putting yourself in a position where skymin cant flinch you to death by managing the flow of the match, which is paramount to playing at a consistently high level. Generally, it means you just don't rely on slow things to check it. There are a plethora of options, and any good team needs to have at least a couple of ways around top threats, which skymin clearly is. The key to beating skymin isn't not getting flinched, it's putting yourself in a position such that it cant just sit there and continue to flinch you to death.

 

[TheFourthChaser]

yet people are opposed to swagger ban

Swagger and Skymin are hella different. It's also worth nothing that the odds of Skymin getting its desired effects are higher and come in more forms than Swagger's.

Skymin requires skill to use (aka competitive). It's not an easy hax button that lets you cheese your way to victory. Banking on Air Slash flinches, even when there are safer plays, are easy ways to have your Skymin lose its sash and die.

A better player beats a worse player, despite Skymin - nothing is wrong with that. A better player can outplay in a way that limits Skymin's Serene Grace effect, which implies that counterplay do in fact exist. Anybody who says otherwise is literally talking out of their butt.

If you are banking on Air Slash flinches when there are safer plays then "you're doing it wrong". A better player CAN beat a worse player using Skymin but skill level becomes less relevant in these scenarios, the RNG manipulation Skymin offers only unfairly increases the odds of the worse player winning. This also applies to a situation of 2 players with roughly even skill, RNG manipulation tilts the odds in favor of the one with the tool to do so.

There are definitely ways to limit the effectiveness of the flinches or drops but those often come in the form of picking your poison, you're in a bad situation and have to choose what seems like the least bad option instead of a good one. This would be fine if it the root of the problem were not Serene Grace fun-time. A good player can limit the effectiveness of things like Evasion boosting as well, just because counterplays may exist doesn't mean something isn't broken in the same way that having counters doesn't mean something is fair.

Lets say we are in a 1v1 situation of scarf lando t vs mega metagross, with the both mons being down to where the next hit will ko them. As the lando owner, you click earthquake, and think that you have won and the game is over. Instead, the metagross uses bullet punch and you lose. Now were you outplayed or was the opponent just lucky to have bullet punch on this particular metagross?

This situation is completely different from the one Kyle offered, it is not comparable.

I'm surprised that so many people seem to be willing to accept that hax is part of the game or that you can just play around it. I'll repeat this as many times as necessary, Skymin offers nothing beneficial to the metagame and only decreases its competitive value.

 

[Pocket]

I just don't see Skymin's hax to be consistent or egregious enough to be banworthy. Before this test, I saw a seasonal match or two where Skymin's Serene Grace really put in work. However I've been spectating and battling myriads of seasonal matches, room tour matches, and ladder matches recently, and Skymin's hax proved to be inconsistent and less game-breaking than I expected. Skymin's haxing capabilities may sound impressive on paper, but apparently in actual games decent players have learned to manage an opposing Skymin effectively.

Of course when 2 players of equal skill collide, a little bit of hax can break an even match. That is why people run moves like Sleep Powder, Thunder Wave, Iron Head, and Rock Slide to improve our odds of winning through chance events. We aren't going to start removing every haxy elements that "tilts the odds in favor of the one with the tool to do so," especially when these RNG factors can be managed with good play. You're essentially asking to ban a whole host of RNG elements in your post, including Rock Slide and Thunder Wave among other things, because they all can improve the odds of the player to win. Why else would people use these moves? lol

Swagger in a way is more annoying than Air Slash flinch, because its effect lasts for multiple turns while the Swagger user is doing additional things. Swagger forces a lot of switches, which loses momentum. In Skymin's case, once you bring out your answer to Skymin, you really don't need to waltz around it anymore, and you force the Skymin to switch out, aka gaining momentum. Also Skymin is susceptible to the ever prevalent Speed control and priority moves, whereas Prankster Swagger dgaf about the former and can only really be blocked by more exclusive items (faster Prankster Taunt, Magic Bounce, Quick Guard, Lum Berry, Safeguard).

 

[Derivatives]

adjective
1.
of, pertaining to, involving, or decided by competition :
competitive sports; a competitive examination.

By the definition of competitive, Skymin falls under that category. Despite it being a competitive Pokémon, its flinches are extreme bullshit in almost all scenarios possible. It may take skill to use, but so would a Primal Kyogre....... maybe if that were a part of the tier, Mega Lucario, Mega Heracross, Mega Mawile, and Mega Beedrill would all be considerably viable since they just straight OHKO it, but that doesn't mean they're switching in anytime soon.

I understand in this meta game that Skymin is a very similarly based Pokémon in that there are so many checks to it that just come out of the viability gods' ass trying to fix this game, and they aren't even reliable checks in most cases. You'll see things like Heatran try to take on a Skymin - oh, too bad, it just got OHKOd by Earth Power. Maybe since Mega Diancie can OHKO it after Focus Sash with Diamond Storm - oh, sorry, didn't mean to Seed Flare your Mega Diancie. Suicune might be able to set up Tailwind against Skymin, right? Wrong. Straight KO on the water dog and it's down for the count. Maybe Scarf Mamoswine? LOL good luck switching in on a potential Secret Sword/Hydro Pump/Seed Flare. Scarf Landorus-T? I'd say it's pretty solid since it would still work well outside of a Skymin meta game, all I have to say is it has trouble with Hydro Pumps from Keldeo and that Skymin isn't dying from Rock Slides if its Focus Sash is intact. If Skymin leaves, all I have to say is good riddance.

Also, without Skymin in the meta game, would Talonflame and Thundurus really be that good? I mean I'll be honest they are very good choices for a team and they probably will be without Skymin in the meta game but their main purpose is to fix a Hyper Offense weakness in most cases, and without Skymin in the meta game Hyper Offense would already be a shaky archetype to use.

 

[Pocket]

You are confused It Is Guest. Primal Kyogre isn't banned for being uncompetitive; it's banned for being overpowered.

In this suspect test, we want to know if Skymin is also overbearing/stifling to this metagame or not. We already noted how it is a competitive mon that requires a skilled hand to actually win games against a good player. In the hands of a worse player, Skymin's hax would more often than not fail to turn the game around, as shown by the replays I've posted in response to your other post.

So yes, Stratos is right - don't ban Skymin because it CAN hax. Thundurus and Ferrothorn can hax with TWave. Togekiss and Jirachi can hax. Landorus-T and Terrakion can hax. Argue whether or not Skymin's hax combined with its other outstanding features is consistently strong enough to narrow the skill gap between the lower skill player and a higher skill player to win a game. Posting replays where Skymin cheesed its way to victory and the deserving winner had lost would be a good start to gather some concrete evidence of how Skymin's hax come into play in actual games.

 

[n10siT]

Argue whether or not Skymin's hax combined with its other outstanding features is consistently strong enough to narrow the skill gap between the lower skill player and a higher skill player to win a game.

This is what my post should've argued more clearly. Thank you for this.

 

[moods]

while laddering on suspect i realized that there is a higher chance of shaymin missing an air slash that getting a serious opponent :(
in my oppinion shaymin has many great counters like thund or zapdos, looses to every speed control, its obv good, but not worth banning
air slash flinched arent the worst thing about it since again SPEED CONTROL. if you are outspeed by a shaymin for a whole game you are just doing it wrong lol.
PS. this is shaymin-sky suspect test, we are not testing swagger, pls stop

 

[v0lca]

I don't think it really breaks in this meta, it's weak against ice moves such as deoxys' ice beam or simply mamoswine's ice shard, so imho don't ban it plz