np: Doubles OU Stage 3 - Hate to Love You - SKYMIN HAS BEEN BANNED

[Bedschibaer]

This was actually my first serious attempt at laddering in doubles, apart from toying around in vgc a bit, and I gotta say that I genuinely enjoyed it. My perceptions on how competitive pokemon should or should not be are based on singles knowledge mostly, so please point out if i miss any substantial points or anything.

Before I went into laddering I thought Skymin would be a huge centralizing threat, so I used a team that was well prepared for it and that was a solid team overall. It does have very viable checks, counters and countermeasures. Shaymin might look extremely threatening on paper, but in practice it can be played around. Priority and speed control are fairly reliable ways from stopping skymin to go ham on a team and both of these things are mandatory on all doubles teams anyways. That of course doesn't make it a willy nilly mon that you don't have to prepare for anyways, because a well played shaymin can decide matches, very often because of a 60% chance, more on that later though.

I am well aware that usage and viability aren't the same thing, but it's not a secret that skymin isn't exactly the most used mon in doubles. What came with usage in the other suspect tests i voted in was "centralization". Centralization only really works when you will see the centralizing pokemon so often that you are forced to run counters to it that would otherwise be poor choices, be unviable, etc. I just don't feel that is the case here, skymin isn't the most centralizing pokemon because the metagame does have several reliable ways to beat it. Most notably speed control. Speed control teams were very popular on the ladder, and since the speed is what makes skymin so hard to deal with, executing your speed control will very often remove that instant threat of skymin. I saw weather quite alot too and that prevents skymin from getting out of hand too, chlorosaur, swift swimmers once they are set up and hail, all of those keep skymin in check. Because speed control in general is way more popular than teams with shaymin there isn't a too big of a centralization. If a mon is centralizing or not isn't the only premise to ban or keep it though.

What does make shaymin such a problematic mon is that it relies on chances alot. Smogons ban philosophy originally wanted to keep the luck factor in the game as low as possible and that is a very reasonable viewpoint. Skymin is just the kind of mon that creates scenarios that turn games into (more or less) coinflips basically. Important games being decided by such things is always an issue, this is only slightly different from other forms of hax though, just with higher probabilities. What really bothers me is that skymins moves are so low risk - high reward. Air Slash might not flinch 40% of the time, but then it's still a strong attack coming off an attacker that outspeeds most of the meta. And if that strong attack isn't enough, the player still has the possibility to go for the chance of flinch which is in his favor. I don't think you should be able to do that in a competitive game. I know the word is thrown around alot and you always go on a slippery slope when using it, but skymin is in certain situations uncompetitive. A good player can prevent those situations, but a good player can also force these situations. I'd argue this is really unhealthy for the game when it becomes a dominant problem. If it is a dominant problem or if it can become a dominant problem in the future isn't something i know yet, but I will try to find that out before voting.

 

[Qazoo306]

I don't think Skymin is broken. It's broken on paper due to it's speed and high probability of flinches and SpD drops, but I don't think it's broken in practice. In my experience, it fires off one or two Seed Flares or Air Slashes, and is either forced out by a bad matchup or outright KOed. We ban nothing based on theorymonning, and always let it into the metagame to see how it actually functions. On paper, Hoopa Unis broken due to it's high offensive stats, solid special bulk, and it's two signature moves allow it to bypas protect and deal damage no matter what the defender does, but it's held back by it's extremely low physical Defence and awkward speed tier. The same thing can be applied to Skymin. An 80% chance to drop SpD on hit is extremely strong when spammed, and a 60% chance to immobilize a slower target for a turn doesn't even sound fun to play against, but those odds only break her on paper. In practice, Skymin has trouble switching in and stayif in for long. An issue it has is frailty. Shaymin Sky must get a free switch through a teammate being KOed or a good prediction. It has to hold a sash or it gets destroyed by priority. Any ice shard is an OHKO, Yoloburd's Brave Bird is an OHKO, and any other non Mach Punch / Aqua Jet priority deals heavy damage. Speed control also ruins Skymin, I'll always switch it out if I think it will get hit by Icy wind or Thunder Wave. When I use Skymin, I'm always very careful about not letting it take any unnecessary damage so it's sash is intact for later in the game. I play play with Skymin as carefully as my opponent plays around it. Is Skymin a strong threat that should be thought about when team building? Yes. Is Skymin broken to the point where it needs a ban? No.

TL;DR - Skymin is a strong threat, but it doesn't consistently get the results that pro ban users talk about. No Ban.

 

[charlie.x.3000]

Air slash has a 60% chance to flinch on a single pokemon, so it means that you basically have 1.4 pokemon attacking every turn. Rock Slide has a 30% by itself, and in total it has 0.7*0.7*100%=49% chance of not flinching the opponent. Then it has a 0.3*0.3*100%=9% of flinching both mons. Therefore, rockslide has a similar effect to Airslash. However, Airslash flinches one single opponent, meaning you can surgically remove that give that threat a chance to do nothing. Also, Rock Slide has bad distribution for the flinches, and the fast mon's that get rock slide do not get STAB from rock slide, making it weaker over all (The best rock types with rock slide are Terrakion and Aerodactyl). However, I find that speed control is SE against Skymin, Talonflame can tailwind to outspeed or it can brave bird. Weather teams have their respective speed abilities (except hail), and yellow magic always works.

I'm pretty sure I've never gone for a Seed flare in the midgame hoping for a SpDef drop, but I can see how that's annoying to face. But, However, I'm 99% sure people dislike Skymin because of airslash and not Seed Flare.

Therefore, if I ever manage to get reqs, I veer on the side of no ban.

 

[Syncrasy]

Ok so got reqs and wanted to do my obligatory post, Didn't really find Skymin much and when i did wasn't that hard to handle. The 60% chance is really annoying but is ez to beta w/ moves such as tailwind/trick room which let you out speed or out slow skymin.priority moves such as FO also handle it quite nicely letting you take it out w/ your partner mon than might not out speed skymin.The spD drops are also quite annoying but if you play offensively vs it they usually don't end up mattering in the long run.Also airslash only flinches ONE mon which leaves your other partner to ez combat it. moves like rockslide can flinch both opponents but we would nvr consider banning rockslide bcs that would be ridiculous. Skymin may be pokemon that can be considered uncompetetive bcs of its chances of luck but isn't that a part of pokemon in general. for these reasons im toward no ban atm.

 

[Vapo]

I've dabbled in doubles a bit during ORAS, but this suspect was the first time I seriously laddered in it, so I'd like to share my experiences with Skymin (and hopefully this isn't the same as everyone else's; a lot has been said in the thread so far).

I did the majority of the suspect laddering with a semi trick room team I stole off the forums. Going into it and from my limited prior experience in the tier, I thought Skymin was pretty uncompetitive and would be a major problem for my team, especially if paired with a Fake Out user, seeing as how that combo has a 60% chance to shut down both of my lead pokemon. Amoonguss, the most common redirector on trick room, can't even do its job with Skymin on the field due to the mechanics of Rage Powder. It's safe to say that TR is one of Skymin's better matchups. I did face it quite a bit, and while it was not an autolose from team preview, it certainly made the match considerably harder and caused me to lose more often than not.

The previous paragraph isn't a reason why I believe Skymin should be banned (causing a certain playstyle trouble is nowhere near grounds for a ban. Stallbreakers shouldn't be banned just because they break stall, etc) but rather a recount of my frustrations on the ladder. I'm not 100% sure on what I will be voting when the time comes. However, I am leaning slightly towards ban, partly because of the lackluster 'No Ban' arguments I've been seeing. One of the arguments for 'No Ban' that I've been noticing is that Skymin can only flinch down one target at a time, so the other is free to attack and KO it. I don't see this as the most solid argument for a few reasons. In a metagame where Protect is on almost every non-choiced pokemon, double targeting is risky. You could KO said threat, or you could completely waste a turn. It does come down to predictions, yes, but to say that double targeting Skymin is a reliable way of getting around its hax and eliminating it from play is a fallacy. I understand this is not a quality solely possessed by Skymin, but it still applies. Redirection, as well as Quick/Wide Guard, also exist, so even if Skymin chooses to not protect, with the proper support it can continuously attack and potentially hax your team without taking damage. Again, this applies to other pokemon, but I'm simply stating why the whole "attack Skymin with the pokemon that isn't flinched" suggestion is not a simple fix to a rather large problem. Another argument I've seen made multiple times throughout the thread is that hax is a part of the game and should not be a legitimate reason to ban Skymin. When I saw these arguments being made, it made me think of teal6's post in the UU Pidgeot Suspect thread that I believe applies in this case as well.

We are already playing a simulated version of an unofficial metagame in a lower tier - if we, the community, think something is more fun as a whole I see absolutely no reason not to vote accordingly. Put simply, I'd rather ban something that's not necessarily "broken" but is incredibly not fun to play against than to have a tier where I legitimately don't have fun playing the games.

Now, this is not to say that I believe Skymin should be banned just because of its haxy nature and its ability to create incredibly frustrating situations, but I don't see why it isn't a valid reason to use to support a 'Ban' vote either. And no, I don't think we should ban every move that can cause hax, because as we've all stated, hax is a part of the game and is what keeps pokemon from being a super predictable snoozefest. However, when said hax is stacked with other factors, things get messy. Air Slash with a 60% chance to flinch is only effective coming from a fast pokemon, and Skymin happens to have one of the highest base speeds in the tier. A base 120 STAB attack with an 80% chance to cut special defense in half is even more threatening coming off a high base 120 Spa stat, etc.

Again, my opinion on Skymin is not completely solidified. While I've formed a few ideas about it from my personal experiences, I am still relatively new to the tier and am completely open to other ideas, so I'll continue to read the posts in this thread and ladder until I've formed a more concrete opinion.

 

[Thisbemyalt]

Frankly as someone with very little doubles knowledge I will have to play longer for a really concrete post and thought process however I have a few on paper reasons that make skymin hard to deal with. Seed flare+slash with the right partner can usually win turn 1 plays because u are very likely to shut down both mons or if that isnt even necessary you can fire off an amazing STAB move with a great chance to drop sp def. This mon paired with a mega kanga on paper seems like an amazingly good combo. Another problem as Vapo said is how well it matches against semi trick room teams which seem to be pretty common in the tier. Also it has a speed tier that allows it to outpace most of the offensive meta and a sp atk+great stab combo that allows it to beat most of the defensive meta. Finally some very good partners for skymin are very common in this meta game from the looks of it like kanga, lando, tran, etc. Overall this certainly looks broken on paper however many people have been talking about how it is much less scary in an actual game so I certainly haven't made a decision yet and will be on the lookout for how well skymin can actually do.

 

[TheFourthChaser]

I just don't see Skymin's hax to be consistent or egregious enough to be banworthy. Before this test, I saw a seasonal match or two where Skymin's Serene Grace really put in work. However I've been spectating and battling myriads of seasonal matches, room tour matches, and ladder matches recently, and Skymin's hax proved to be inconsistent and less game-breaking than I expected. Skymin's haxing capabilities may sound impressive on paper, but apparently in actual games decent players have learned to manage an opposing Skymin effectively.

Of course when 2 players of equal skill collide, a little bit of hax can break an even match. That is why people run moves like Sleep Powder, Thunder Wave, Iron Head, and Rock Slide to improve our odds of winning through chance events. We aren't going to start removing every haxy elements that "tilts the odds in favor of the one with the tool to do so," especially when these RNG factors can be managed with good play. You're essentially asking to ban a whole host of RNG elements in your post, including Rock Slide and Thunder Wave among other things, because they all can improve the odds of the player to win. Why else would people use these moves? lol

Swagger in a way is more annoying than Air Slash flinch, because its effect lasts for multiple turns while the Swagger user is doing additional things. Swagger forces a lot of switches, which loses momentum. In Skymin's case, once you bring out your answer to Skymin, you really don't need to waltz around it anymore, and you force the Skymin to switch out, aka gaining momentum. Also Skymin is susceptible to the ever prevalent Speed control and priority moves, whereas Prankster Swagger dgaf about the former and can only really be blocked by more exclusive items (faster Prankster Taunt, Magic Bounce, Quick Guard, Lum Berry, Safeguard).

All the other hax moves are worse, at least arguably, than Skymin's. First, I do not include Sleep Powder as a hax move and Thunder Wave is shaky since, for the most part, people use it for the Speed reduction and not the 1/4 chance of paralysis. I really wish Game Freak would remove that as a possibility from paralysis but they're just so stuck to traditional RPG mechanics. 1/4th is a lot less than Skymin's flinch chance.

I will grant Swagger and Rock Slide as similar moves in this argument, they prevent movement and have similar hax percentages. The former is most definitely used to try and prevent the opponent from moving and the latter, I think, has additional uses because of it's flinching abilities. Swagger, on the turn of use, effectively has more of a chance to fail than succeed and in order to change this an additional move needs to be used. That's 2 turns. Rock Slide in Doubles, at least iirc, has a 54% to do something haxy, be it miss or flinch one of the opponents mons. Skymin has 57% to flinch with Air Slash, it and Seed Flare are the only 1 turn moves likely to activate.

Following the idea that Skymin is likely, unlike the other aforementioned attacks, to prevent movement, I feel it is worth bringing up Jirachi and why Skymin as a Pokemon matters outside of the idea that hax sucks. Jirachi actually has a stronger flinch chance than Skymin and has Thunder Wave as an option. Honestly, Jirachi is pretty nuts. Loads of support options, strong ability to prevent opponent movement, why isn't this being suspected? I'd say typing, Speed, and power- all of which Jirachi lacks relative to Skymin.

While we're on Speed, a lot of the priority mentioned that beats Skymin is kinda shaky to me. Fake Out from Kang can be Protected and neutralized, Skymin takes Sucker, and while Weavile/Mamo Ice Shard are solid options they've never been the most common and traditionally saying "slap Mamo on your team" has never been an acceptable answer. It's an offensive check but relying on Ice Shard solely to beat Skymin has never been enough. Moves like Icy Wind and Thunder Wave are nice, assuming you can get them to land on Skymin in the first place. Earlier I said I felt that Thundurus was the only truly reliable priority user against Skymin and I feel this still stands. As for Choice Scarf, I grant that it can be a nice offensive check itself but in all the speed control talks it seems that people never consider the Skymin team is capable of having moves like Icy Wind at the same time. Outside of speed control, 127 base Speed is outspeeding a pretty large majority of the metagame. 120 base SpA with Grass/Flying/Ground coverage is strong, especially with Serene Grace in consideration.

If Skymin had a BST of 6 we wouldn't be having this discussion. It is strong enough by itself to create holes while, at the same time, has the ability to prevent the opponent from moving. Now the partner Mega Kang/Garde/Char/whatever has the ability to abuse this as well. This is bad for strategy, tactics, yada yada yada

 

[Bughouse]

There is no magical 50% threshold after which hax somehow becomes unhealthy but before then it's ok.

That is an incredibly unsophisticated idea and one that was rejected numerous times when people tried to preserve Swagger in Singles because it has only a 45% chance of the opponent hitting themselves. Swagger can still be banned despite being lower than 50%, and so could Rock Slide in Doubles. There is nothing magical about Skymin's somewhat higher chance.

Quite simply, it's either broken or it isn't.

 

[Stratos]

You can't play better to deal with an Air Slash flinch. If your check to Shaymin is slower, if he got flinched 6 times in a row, no matter how good you played your battle, you lost.

where the fuck was your partner for those six turns? id argue that if your single check to skymin is slower than it, and you spent six turns without once double targeting skymin, i dont think you played your battle well.


people act like if they get themselves into an endgame situation where they can be swept by skymin, they deserve to win the match. why? you don't. Now if these situations are extremely common then you could make an argument that skymin is overpowered, but these situations really arent very hard to avoid.

The thing about skymin is that it is incapable of 2v1'ing virtually any combination of two pokemon. This means it is almost always under threat and relies heavily on its partner to keep it safe. Since its partners tend to be offensive, this reliance usually goes both ways. But since Skymin can't OHKO much, what you get is it filling a sort of support role, fishing for 57% flinch chances while its partner attacks the opponent on which it has a good matchup, at great risk to both skymin and its partner. When Skymin isn't feeling threatened is when it can start to fire off Seed Flares, but for now, let's focus on Air Slash, which seems to be the thing that has people in a tizzy.this is an example of skymin in action.

As such there are essentially three ways to counter skymin:

1. have a Pokemon which skymin can't flinch. this is obvious. if you have a pokemon which doesn't fear air slash, such as lando-t, genesect, talon, mega aero, mega gengar, abomasnow, thundurus, kangaskhan, bisharp, or scarf cube, or if you can redirect the air slash with Jirachi or Togekiss, Skymin+partner probably won't win the turn (though protect shenanigans do come into play, especially vs the scarfers in this list).
   
2. have two pokemon which skymin's partner can't beat. Skymin can only incapacitate one Pokemon at a time, so if its partner is incapable of taking care of the other, the Skymin user is in a losing matchup. This is hard to theory, since you can't just guess what Skymin's partner will be, but it's possibly the most common way of dealing with Skymin in practice.
   
3. make the risk of a not-flinch not worth it for the skymin user. if the consequences of failing to flinch are too high, the skymin will switch. this is a win, since 1) you get a free hit and 2) skymin is typically not great in the late game. often this can be accomplished simply by threatening an OHKO on skymin or its partner.

Typically, the later in the game it gets, the worse Skymin becomes, so these tools are far from worthless. As skymin's choice of partners for different situations decreases, so does its own usefulness.

So far, most people in this thread have just singled out the first of these three options, noticed that there are less than a dozen pokemon that outspeed skymin, and decided that that's too restrictive for counterplaying skymin. But that's far from the truth when it comes to this Pokemon. In fact, I have a team (togekiss/kangaskhan/subcube/aegislash/rotom-w/darkrai) that is entirely slower than skymin, yet i consider it to have a good skymin matchup.

 

[TheFourthChaser]

The only reason over 50% was significant was to point out that Skymin was more drastic than the other effects it was being compared to, which Singles suspect history agrees with. No one said it was ok before 50%, it isn't healthy before 50% but when it hits the point that it's likely it's goes from stupid to absolutely fuckin ridiculous.

edit: fuck stratos

 

[Darkmalice]

The only reason over 50% was significant was to point out that Skymin was more drastic than the other effects it was being compared to, which Singles suspect history agrees with. No one said it was ok before 50%, it isn't healthy before 50% but when it hits the point that it's likely it's goes from stupid to absolutely fuckin ridiculous.

This is referring to Swagger which is a different case. In Singles, Swagger only had one use - to confuse the other Pokemon. Given its wide distribution, it could easily be abused, creating entire team strategies revolving around it, mainly with Prankster. This was deemed uncompetitive and arguably broken too. It was not simply the 50% benchmark. I'm pretty sure Swagger would still be uncompetitive if confusion had a 49% of causing confusion in Singles. The 50% benchmark is not a thing. It should not be applied to Skymin. Neither should all this theorymon "on paper is broken" stuff, and sadly some of the posts here are entirely theorymon. Frankly we should be considering primarily how it performs in practice. If we only used theorymon, Hoopa-U would have never been allowed in DOU, but when we tested it, we realised our theorymon was wrong and it was manageable.

Generally in practice, I find it quite manageable. A lot of the game is about momentum. Skymin kinda needs momentum on its side to function. Otherwise, it struggles too badly at abusing Air Slash flinches, Seed Flare drops, abusing its coverage and in general being Skymin. When it does have momentum is when it can do stuff, and it commonly needs to abuse its Air Slash hax to maintain the momentu, for example by stopping TR or Tailwind going up.

In a more theoretical list of things that stops Skymin, Stratos' list is fine. In addition to what he said, you can also use speed support. For example, Skymin isn't outspeeding a lot if the opponent has Tailwind, if TR is up etc. Interestingly enough, Togekiss and Jirachi who redirect can also provide that. I do find that those two are good check to Skymin. Just make sure you avoid a Seed Flare SpD drop. Fyi Earth Power does not 2HKO Jirachi.

Another big reason I find I handle it is this:

The thing about skymin is that it is incapable of 2v1'ing virtually any combination of two pokemon. This means it is almost always under threat and relies heavily on its partner to keep it safe. Since its partners tend to be offensive, this reliance usually goes both ways. But since Skymin can't OHKO much, what you get is it filling a sort of support role, fishing for 57% flinch chances while its partner attacks the opponent on which it has a good matchup, at great risk to both skymin and its partner. When Skymin isn't feeling threatened is when it can start to fire off Seed Flares, but for now, let's focus on Air Slash, which seems to be the thing that has people in a tizzy.this is an example of skymin in action.

Skymin commonly finds itself in scenarios where it can stop one opposing Pokemon but not both, and when it can't stop both, it's commonly in a bad position.

Also if you are in a scenario where an Air Slash flinch is likely to be hazardous, you don't usually have to take it. There's Protect. But more importantly is switching out to something that can take it. Air Slash without the flinch isn't a dangerous move thanks to its low base power. Pretty much any that isn't weak to it and has at least decent special bulk wouldn't have much issue in switching in.

I've never found Skymin to be a problem for the entirety of 6th generation. It got better when we removed sleep clause since it's great at dealing with the Spore users, but I've never found it over the top. Generally I find my teams manage it without necessarily accounting for it, and I find my teams account for it when finding checks for other things, like such as Talonflame (dealing with super speedy Flying-type moves) and Zard + Venusaur (dealing with super speedy Grass-type and also being able to deal with it in the face of large offensive pressure). in the case of Trick Room, you gotta be prepared for dealing with faster threats in general, not just Skymin Air Slash, also options that have a higher success rate like opposing sleep inducers, Taunt users (especially surprise Taunt users), Fake Out, and super-effective attacks in general. No well-built TR team will be able to handle all those above threats but not Air Slash - it would already be capable of handling it.

 

[Rare Poison]

Although the flinch/drop rate of Air Slash/Seed Flare does seem annoying on paper, it's quite manageable in practice. Being able to only flinch one Pokémon at a time leaves it open to the Pokémon that it's not attacking. Now, Doubles is a tier that is driven by combinations between the two Pokémon on the field. I feel that the success of Skymin really depends on what is supporting it and what it is fighting against. While Skymin can essentially take the play out of a Pokémon 57% of the time, there is also the factor of what the other opposing Pokémon can do as well as what Skymin's partner can do in the situation.

I guess what I am trying to say is that the effectiveness of Skymin is dependent on many variables. While it is a good Pokémon in the tier, it doesn't produce consistent results that make the tier unplayable. There is not one strategy or combination that almost always guarantees success for Skymin; this leads me to believe that it is not broken.

 

[Pak]

I'm somewhat new the the Doubles OU format but based on my laddering experience, here is my position on Skymin. Skymin is a mon with very good coverage with the combination of seed flare, air slash, and earth power. Not only are its stab moves powerful coming off of base 120 special attack but they also come with annoying sp def drops and flinches from seed flare and air slash respectively. It also has one of the highest base speeds in the meta behind only a few other common Pokemon without the use of a choice scarf. Even with all of these positives, skymin does have a major weakness. Any form or speed control such as T-Wave, trick room, icy wind, tailwind, etc. can neutralize this major threat. If it is not faster, skymin can't proceed to air slash with the favorable flinch chance. Any good team should have some sort of speed control. Overall in this suspect I'm really on the fence but I'm leaning towards ban. The reason lies in the fact that the flinch chance is in the favor of the skymin user with the serene grace boost. Other pokemon with access to serene grace such as jirachi and togekiss are not nearly as fast as skymin without the use of a scarf. Air slash flinches can sway the momentum of the entire game.

For example, say one player has a heatran and cresselia out on the field, running a trick room team, against a skymin with its sash broken and decently whittled keldeo. Heatran can safely protect as cress sets up the trick room and the following turn Heatran can knock out skymin and cress the keldeo with some sort of psychic type move. However, if the skymin user goes for the air slash on the cresselia and gets the flinch, the tr user would be forced to either switch out the heatran or go for a double protect. This situationis completely hypothetical but it does show how one flinch can change the entire course of a match and sway the momentum one way or another. If the speed control pokemon is flinched before it can do its job, that player will be put at a huge disadvantage and lose all momentum.

 

[Haruno]

Although the flinch/drop rate of Air Slash/Seed Flare does seem annoying on paper, it's quite manageable in practice. Being able to only flinch one Pokémon at a time leaves it open to the Pokémon that it's not attacking. Now, Doubles is a tier that is driven by combinations between the two Pokémon on the field. I feel that the success of Skymin really depends on what is supporting it and what it is fighting against. While Skymin can essentially take the play out of a Pokémon 57% of the time, there is also the factor of what the other opposing Pokémon can do as well as what Skymin's partner can do in the situation.

I guess what I am trying to say is that the effectiveness of Skymin is dependent on many variables. While it is a good Pokémon in the tier, it doesn't produce consistent results that make the tier unplayable. There is not one strategy or combination that almost always guarantees success for Skymin; this leads me to believe that it is not broken.

Fake out says hi, a flinch on a single target is very important in a large amount of situations. I don't see why you're saying that a single target flinch isn't godlike just because partners exist.

 

[KyleCole]

Thunder Wave is shaky since, for the most part, people use it for the Speed reduction and not the 1/4 chance of paralysis.

This just happened about 2 minutes before I read your post

 

[moods]

Fake out says hi, a flinch on a single target is very important in a large amount of situations. I don't see why you're saying that a single target flinch isn't godlike just because partners exist.

single target chance to flinch isn't godlike because the user needs to outspeed the target, and thats really bad for a mon that works only on tailwind teams

 

[Blitz]

I'll cut straight to the chase and offer a different viewpoint. Skymin already has some weaknesses that play directly into its influence in battle. We know:

- Speed control is something Skymin can definitely take advantage off to abuse its flinches and drops, but screws with it massively by taking away its most important asset (more on this later).
- It has bad bulk, relying on Sash. It's legitimately getting 2HKOed by most spread moves (Diamond Storm, Rock Slide, Heat Wave, Blizzard, Hyper Voice, and even Icy Wind). Same goes for the majority of priority, which bypasses its stellar speed.

I'll focus on the effects its best moves have to offer. It's one-dimensional in what it does and everyone knows what it will abuse when it comes out - while its toolkit is really good and further boosted by Serene Grace, Skymin loves teammates to abuse them to the fullest. Air Slash's flinching allows Skymin to potentially make its teammate go 1v1 vs the other mon to dispatch it or allows the duo to avoid a key attack / support move from the opposing side. It requires you to be faster than the foe, and even though Skymin's amazing speed allows it to abuse that well, it's kept in check by priority and the different types of speed control that exist in the tier (Tailwind, Trick Room, Icy Wind, Thunder Wave), which are going to come out that turn in order to neutralize Skymin. Sure, the teammate can defend against that by having these tools available to themselves or circumventing the opponent's: Tailwind to circumvent the opposing Tailwind or Icy Wind speed drops, Quick Guard for block priority, Fake Out as a full stop to a Pokemon for one turn, etc. However, that costs Skymin's teammate its ability to capitalize on the situation in the off chance that Air Slash does flinch... in addition to dealing with an opposing teammate who will have that turn to do whatever it wants. Seed Flare's SpD drop can be abused by double targetting a threat that can p much be OHKOed or by practically mandating a switch, which comes at the potential cost of a free turn by an untouched teammate or a waste of a turn by use of Protect.

In theory, the positive outcomes behind these situations outweigh the drawbacks and can cause the player to go for it, but in practice it isn't consistent to do so. You have two events to already take into account (the miss chance and the chance to simply do damage and that's it) before you even think to abuse the effects of its 2 best moves, and then you have the outliers that are directly influenced by the other player. E.g Any type of move that is used to bypass Skymin's speed really screws it over and it has no way of defending against it by itself (accentuated by the lack of bulk), and this further affects its ability to abuse Serene Grace. So, what you have right now is a Pokemon that, in a real battle, actually has a smaller chance of capitalizing on Serene Grace than originally perceived and in turn, its offensive power stops being so deceptive. Skymin will not consistently and decisively change battles for the player despite having a greater chance than any other Pokemon to influence the game's RNG, but rather contribute to the usual risk vs. reward scenario with drawbacks that prevent its turn from being one-sided.

 

[Gros orteil]

Hey, the debate is very intense there and arguments are really convincing on both sides, some people here made my opinion change several times before choosing a definitive one.
So I'm writing down my thoughts about the suspect and my reasons for voting no ban.

- Despite a very pressuring offensive presence, Shaymin-Sky remains frail, its five weaknesses makes it vulnerable to common typings and skymin is easily 2hko'ed by almost all the offensive moves in the doubles metagame, particularly the spread moves, which destroy it.
- Based on the common skymin set (focus sash, air slash, seed flare, earth power, protect), plenty of common things check it in the metagame, I'm not listing the pokemons since KyleCole already did, but looking at the moves we have fake out, thunder wave, trick room, stealth rock, icy wind, tailwind, protect, priority moves, spread moves. These moves are useful against skymin and in one way or another will eventually kill it. In addition to the moves, there are also some items (focus sash, choice scarf), abilities (gale wings, prankster, sturdy, stance change), weather teams, speed control, bulky pokemons, to get rid of it. All that to say that even if you are not prepared for shaymin-sky in your team, you have most of the time something to deal with it, moreover, Seed Flare or Air Slash rarely ohko the target, letting the opportunity to hit back.

Concerning the Air Slash problem, first, as it has been said higher, the amazing probability of flinching the opponent sounds attractive on the paper, but it turns to be not that effective in battle; Air Slash hits only one opponent and leaves skymin potentially vulnerable to the other one, plus the probability of flinching is not 100%, meaning you can't rely on it everytime. Air Slash is clearly an asset on shaymin-sky but does not make it broken for all that. Also, I've read multiple times that it's an "uncompetitive" combination (serene grace grace + air slash on skymin), this is a very subjective point of view here, I personally think that air slash is not really competitive, but from there, there are also many other things that could be considered as uncompetitive (sleeping moves spam, baton pass, rock slide..) and aren't banworthy either. They are just considered as threats you have to play around to deal with, and this is how I consider skymin's air slash. Skymin is not broken on itself and I refuse to vote ban because it has an uncompetitive move, that sounds absurd to me.

My last word will be that Skymin has a unique double typing (not counting the few PU mons with the same double type because they are not usable at all in overused) and an exclusive signature move, both allowing players to create tactics only playable with skymin and it would be a pity to deprive players of this exclusivity.

Skymin is definitely a strong and threatening pokemon, that can also use a high-probability haxx move when needed, but it's not mighty/centralizing/uncompetitive enough to be banworthy.

 

[TheFourthChaser]

*post*

The 50% benchmark is only marking when it moves from unlikely to likely event, in literally anything ever that deals with percentages this will be a thing. Suspect history was referring to Skymin, not Swagger. For 3 generations Skymin being an uncompetitive Pokemon was enough to ban it, this also led to the only 100% vote ever. In my eyes this is the closest you can get to objectively calling it bad for a competitive game.

It commonly needs momentum in order to function is a point I've gotten from your post. If there were some way I could prevent my opponent from moving a majority of the time and have my partner Pokemon maintain offense I feel like this would give me more offensive momentum. Thanks, Skymin!

You mention that Togekiss and Jirachi work assuming you avoid an SpD drop. THATS A LIKELY EVENT MAN. If you switch in you're at risk, if my partner allows me a chance at getting the drop you're at risk, and if I'm at risk (you don't have a drop and I don't have a way to KO nor will flinching be much help) why don't I just save Skymin for a situation in which it's easier to abuse my RNG manipulation? Granted, I may lose some short term momentum but Skymin's speed makes it pretty easy to come back in and restart that momentum.

single target chance to flinch isn't godlike because the user needs to outspeed the target, and thats really bad for a mon that works only on tailwind teams

If you've qualified and believe this I feel it is good reason to think that ladder teaches nothing, Skymin doesn't need Tailwind at all.

Concerning the Air Slash problem, first, as it has been said higher, the amazing probability of flinching the opponent sounds attractive on the paper, but it turns to be not that effective in battle; Air Slash hits only one opponent and leaves skymin potentially vulnerable to the other one, plus the probability of flinching is not 100%, meaning you can't rely on it everytime. Air Slash is clearly an asset on shaymin-sky but does not make it broken for all that. Also, I've read multiple times that it's an "uncompetitive" combination (serene grace grace + air slash on skymin), this is a very subjective point of view here, I personally think that air slash is not really competitive, but from there, there are also many other things that could be considered as uncompetitive (sleeping moves spam, baton pass, rock slide..) and aren't banworthy either. They are just considered as threats you have to play around to deal with, and this is how I consider skymin's air slash. Skymin is not broken on itself and I refuse to vote ban because it has an uncompetitive move, that sounds absurd to me.

My last word will be that Skymin has a unique double typing (not counting the few PU mons with the same double type because they are not usable at all in overused) and an exclusive signature move, both allowing players to create tactics only playable with skymin and it would be a pity to deprive players of this exclusivity.

I don't think I'm ever going to understand why we just write off Skymin's hax abilities as part of the game and be satisfied. Let's look at things that "could" be considered uncompetitive according to this: sleep move spam, Baton Pass, Rock Slide. If Skymin, Thundurus, anything that was fast and reliable had Spore you'd ban that shit. Sleep is a lot easier to prevent in general because the general speed of the reliable sleep users is low. Amoonguss needs Trick Room, Venusaur needs Sun, etc. This is unlike Skymin which needs only the most basic offensive support, true of every option in a Doubles metagame. Baton Pass isn't a problem in Doubles and was severly limited where it was, Singles. Rock Slide could be argued but it's also coupled with the fact that Landorus-Therian is just hella good.

It may seem that having Skymin, something more "unique", around increases tactics but this is untrue. The tactics brought along with Skymin limit general strategy and tactics. Having an extra one isn't worth losing 2.

 

[Audiosurfer]

The 50% benchmark is only marking when it moves from unlikely to likely event, in literally anything ever that deals with percentages this will be a thing. Suspect history was referring to Skymin, not Swagger. For 3 generations Skymin being an uncompetitive Pokemon was enough to ban it, this also led to the only 100% vote ever. In my eyes this is the closest you can get to objectively calling it bad for a competitive game.

Ok I keep seeing this argument and it'ss mischaracterizing the reason for Skymin's banning in singles. Skymin was not banned for being uncompetitive, it was banned for being broken, and its ability to take advantage of its high flinch rate is what made it broken. The difference between this and being banned for being uncompetitive is that if 60% flinch were universally uncompetitive, mons such as Jirachi and Togekiss would be banned as well. They are not banned, though, since brokenness was the criteria for banning Skymin in all of those generations, and Jirachi and Togekiss aren't broken in OU despite their access to 60% flinch.

The implication this info has for the current suspect is that this notion of looking to Singles bans for this ban just doesn't work since this isn't an issue of uncompetitiveness, but brokenness. It'd be like banning Mega Kangaskhan because it was banned in OU. You have to prove that Skymin's access to 60% flinch makes it broken in Doubles, which means things such as 'luck factor' need to stop being brought up as though they're uniquely unhealthy for the game. It's already been shown that Skymin isn't uncompetitive since it isn't preventing skillful play from taking place nor is it trying to get around the processes that lead to it.

 

[Checkmater]

Honestly some very good points are being made but we honestly need to move past the whole "how haxy is too haxy". People trying to ban skymin should be making points (like mizu did in chat last night) about how its hax ADDS to its power to make it overpowered. Talking semantics of "oh it's 57% that's more than swagger" like legit no one cares. Trying to benchmark "how haxy is too haxy" is just stupid.

Haruno makes some good points about how powerful fake out is and trying to say that "skymin can't flinch both, your partner has got you" is pretty invalid considering how powerful fake out is.

Anyways, a point I haven't seen many people make is about the playstyle of skymin teams. Simply put, it's like always ho. This means your games are going to be fast paced quick and end in about 10 turns. Fast-paced, fast kills, mons dropping like flies. That's ho. It's like a high-tempo dance. Slip, and you fall. And relying on skymin air slashes gives you ample chances to slip and fall. Even if your opposing mons doesn't have the aforementioned "skymin checks" (aka landot, kang, bisharp, togekiss, jirachi, thundurus, tflame, to list a few) when you're playing ho you're playing an extremely fast paced game that can't afford slips. So basically the moment you don't get a flinch you're kinda fucked. When you play ho you're walking a tightrope of keeping up tempo and offensive pressure and when your air slash loses that 57/43 roll, you kinda lose all your tempo. Opposing team gets trick room, or gets to ko mons and build momentum, etc.

Also stop assuming the skymin user knows exactly when you're going to switch so it'll go for seed flare, but it also knows when you'll stay in so it'll always go for air slash. These things are called predictions. More often than not, the skymin player won't seed flare your switch, and air slash is pretty easy to switchin on.

 

[TheFourthChaser]

Ok I keep seeing this argument and it'ss mischaracterizing the reason for Skymin's banning in singles. Skymin was not banned for being uncompetitive, it was banned for being broken, and its ability to take advantage of its high flinch rate is what made it broken. The difference between this and being banned for being uncompetitive is that if 60% flinch were universally uncompetitive, mons such as Jirachi and Togekiss would be banned as well. They are not banned, though, since brokenness was the criteria for banning Skymin in all of those generations, and Jirachi and Togekiss aren't broken in OU despite their access to 60% flinch.

The implication this info has for the current suspect is that this notion of looking to Singles bans for this ban just doesn't work since this isn't an issue of uncompetitiveness, but brokenness. It'd be like banning Mega Kangaskhan because it was banned in OU. You have to prove that Skymin's access to 60% flinch makes it broken in Doubles, which means things such as 'luck factor' need to stop being brought up as though they're uniquely unhealthy for the game. It's already been shown that Skymin isn't uncompetitive since it isn't preventing skillful play from taking place nor is it trying to get around the processes that lead to it.

If we're in the business of linking our own post, I already give some detail as to why Skymin was broken when Jirachi (and, by extension Togekiss) did not bite into being broken despite similar hax possibilities. Serene Grace is the main reason Skymin is broken and it happens to be uncompetitive as all hell. Bringing up Singles was not being used as an argument to ban Skymin in Doubles, it was being used as an example that this community has viewed Skymin and what it does as stupid for years. The Doubles dynamic definitely changes how Skymin plays around but at the end of the day, it's incredibly similar and just as stupid.

I don't see how your post shows Skymin to be uncompetitive when it sounds to me that it bites into your own uncompetitive definition. "The only time in which luck-based strategies are uncompetitive is when they (and here I use my definition of uncompetitive, which you may not agree with but I feel is accurate) deliberately seek to avoid interacting with the opponent's strategy, thus circumventing the normal flow of prediction, risk vs. reward, etc and making the game less skillful as a result." This is happening. Players often need to assume worse-case scenario when dealing with Skymin because of its speed and ability to either prevent movement or greatly decrease the SpD stat.

Honestly some very good points are being made but we honestly need to move past the whole "how haxy is too haxy". People trying to ban skymin should be making points (like mizu did in chat last night) about how its hax ADDS to its power to make it overpowered. Talking semantics of "oh it's 57% that's more than swagger" like legit no one cares. Trying to benchmark "how haxy is too haxy" is just stupid.

Haruno makes some good points about how powerful fake out is and trying to say that "skymin can't flinch both, your partner has got you" is pretty invalid considering how powerful fake out is.

Anyways, a point I haven't seen many people make is about the playstyle of skymin teams. Simply put, it's like always ho. This means your games are going to be fast paced quick and end in about 10 turns. Fast-paced, fast kills, mons dropping like flies. That's ho. It's like a high-tempo dance. Slip, and you fall. And relying on skymin air slashes gives you ample chances to slip and fall. Even if your opposing mons doesn't have the aforementioned "skymin checks" (aka landot, kang, bisharp, togekiss, jirachi, thundurus, tflame, to list a few) when you're playing ho you're playing an extremely fast paced game that can't afford slips. So basically the moment you don't get a flinch you're kinda fucked. When you play ho you're walking a tightrope of keeping up tempo and offensive pressure and when your air slash loses that 57/43 roll, you kinda lose all your tempo. Opposing team gets trick room, or gets to ko mons and build momentum, etc.

Also stop assuming the skymin user knows exactly when you're going to switch so it'll go for seed flare, but it also knows when you'll stay in so it'll always go for air slash. These things are called predictions. More often than not, the skymin player won't seed flare your switch, and air slash is pretty easy to switchin on.

Numbers keep coming up because people kept either thinking that hax was no big deal or that a comparison to some move like Swagger was a justifying thought, both of which are way worse ideas than bringing up a "benchmark". Skymin's defining broken factor is Serene Grace, nothing else is worth discussing as much as this ability. Speed, typing, and other supplementary advantages that Skymin have been brought up multiple times, they just aren't worth talking about as much as how Skymin has the power to throw out luck effects.

Going for a quick disagreement on how it has to be HO, you can use a bulky offensive team with Skymin. If I could be bothered to try and find old Grand Slam games (I remember this being against Laga?), I had a Skymin team which used Pokemon like Scrafty and Cress. It isn't difficult to slap Skymin onto teams lol, the only team I would immediately say was a bad idea to use it on was Trick Room. Anything else is fair game.

I haven't seen any arguments that assumed prediction always worked out for the Skymin player so I don't feel much need to touch that one.

 

[Luckstard.]

where the fuck was your partner for those six turns? id argue that if your single check to skymin is slower than it, and you spent six turns without once double targeting skymin, i dont think you played your battle well.

The guy I was quoting was talking about a situation where you were in 1v1.

- Despite a very pressuring offensive presence, Shaymin-Sky remains frail, its five weaknesses makes it vulnerable to common typings and skymin is easily 2hko'ed by almost all the offensive moves in the doubles metagame, particularly the spread moves, which destroy it.

There is a ton of threats that have been banned over the times despite being weak to common moves. Your argument here does not make sense because there is nothing disallowing Skymin to protect (bar being taunted) or even to switch out (bar Mega Gengar).

I'll add that by this kind of process you can unban Mega Lucario. It's frail, has a lot of annoying weakness making him weak to common typings and is easily 1HKO'd (not even 2HKO'd !!) by a lot of moves played in Doubles OU, especially Earthquake and fighting move !

- Based on the common skymin set (focus sash, air slash, seed flare, earth power, protect), plenty of common things check it in the metagame, I'm not listing the pokemons since KyleCole already did, but looking at the moves we have fake out, thunder wave, trick room, stealth rock, icy wind, tailwind, protect, priority moves, spread moves. These moves are useful against skymin and in one way or another will eventually kill it.

Skymin canProtect or Switch Out to avoid being hitted by priority moves. It's not a solid argument you are making here.

In addition to the moves, there are also some items (focus sash, choice scarf), abilities (gale wings, prankster, sturdy, stance change), weather teams, speed control, bulky pokemons, to get rid of it.

First I don't know how stance change actually helps to deal with Skymin, it's not like Skymin was supposed to do a ton of work against a mon resisting its both stabbs.
Once again, sash / sturdy does not help because even if it sounds cool, if you are relying to it, you are risking to get flinched. And it actually matters because even if Skymin is not 100% it's gonna flinch, there is a good chance it will. Moreover, Skymin also has a sash, so even if you take a hit and then hit him back, you are not KO'ing him.

And Bulky mons are probably the worst way to deal with Skymin since you are slower. There is a good chance you are getting flicnhed or KO'ed because Skymin is not alone on the field.

All that to say that even if you are not prepared for shaymin-sky in your team, you have most of the time something to deal with it, moreover, Seed Flare or Air Slash rarely ohko the target, letting the opportunity to hit back.

It's not as easy as you may think to get rid of Skymin. It's a top tier for a good reason, and you seem to forget it.

Concerning the Air Slash problem, first, as it has been said higher, the amazing probability of flinching the opponent sounds attractive on the paper, but it turns to be not that effective in battle; Air Slash hits only one opponent and leaves skymin potentially vulnerable to the other one,

That's only true if you are up in a situation where you have 2 mons on the field able to threaten Skymin, 2 mons on the field that are both unthreaten by Skymin's partner. And this situation happens 0.05% of the time?

plus the probability of flinching is not 100%, meaning you can't rely on it everytime. Air Slash is clearly an asset on shaymin-sky but does not make it broken for all that. Also, I've read multiple times that it's an "uncompetitive" combination (serene grace grace + air slash on skymin), this is a very subjective point of view here, I personally think that air slash is not really competitive, but from there, there are also many other things that could be considered as uncompetitive (sleeping moves spam, baton pass, rock slide..) and aren't banworthy either.

Baton Pass is far from being a problem in DOU.

And there is ahuge difference between Air Slash from Skymin and Rock Slide from every mons using it.

You can't click Rock Slide thinking "if I flinch X, I'll get a chance to win". The chance of flinching are too low to expect it. Skymin's Air Slash has a better chance, sure it does not happens everytime, but you have more chance to get it than not to got it.

They are just considered as threats you have to play around to deal with, and this is how I consider skymin's air slash. Skymin is not broken on itself and I refuse to vote ban because it has an uncompetitive move, that sounds absurd to me.

Did you read the thread? We are not considering a ban of Skymin because of Air Slash + Serene Grace (or at least not only), Skymin is fast, Skymin is strong. A well-played Skymin can trouble a lot of build, and that without even relying on luck. Air Slash flinches are putting him at an higher level.

My last word will be that Skymin has a unique double typing (not counting the few PU mons with the same double type because they are not usable at all in overused) and an exclusive signature move, both allowing players to create tactics only playable with skymin and it would be a pity to deprive players of this exclusivity.

Like what? Droping SpDef then allowing to special attacker to kill threats? Flinching the mons threatening its partner so it can kill something? That absolutely does not make Skymin healthy for the metagame. Not at all.

Skymin is definitely a strong and threatening pokemon, that can also use a high-probability haxx move when needed, but it's not mighty/centralizing/uncompetitive enough to be banworthy.

Mighty ?_?

Sure it does not centralize the game. But I don't know how you can consider something like Skymin enough healthy for the metagame.

edit: yea forgot to highlight it, but funny to see you are already 100% sure what you'll vote in 1 week when you did not take part of discussion and when your arguments are mostly not valid.


I'll add few more points, I've been laddering for a long time, even after getting reqs, and I've won a ton of game because the end game was up to "if I flinch X to allow my partner to kill X/Y, then I won".

Skymin actually helps people in bad situations to escape them using haxx. And as someone already said "the more haxxy is the game, the less it is competitive".

The more I play with Skymin, the more I feel it should be banned.

 

[Bughouse]

I'll add that by this kind of process you can unban Mega Lucario. It's frail, has a lot of annoying weakness making him weak to common typings and is easily 1HKO'd (not even 2HKO'd !!) by a lot of moves played in Doubles OU, especially Earthquake and fighting move !

Congrats, Mega Lucario IS legal, and isn't even good. It's niche.

Your posts are revealing a really stunning lack of knowledge of the doubles metagame and I encourage you to either do better or just stop.

 

[Bughouse]

I just want to clarify the above post and apologize. It was not a polite, nor accurate way for me to respond. My frustration with Luckstard has nothing to do with Mega Lucario or whether or not Luckstard is particularly knowledgeable about doubles. In fact it has to do with the following:

Skymin is not broken, as you said and I agree with you, he is a very good mon. But he is unhealthy, and for that reason, he should be banned.

Luckstard earlier in this thread admitted that he does not think Skymin is broken. But it apparently is too haxy for his taste.

even if Skymin is not 100% it's gonna flinch, there is a good chance it will.

...

You can't click Rock Slide thinking "if I flinch X, I'll get a chance to win". The chance of flinching are too low to expect it. Skymin's Air Slash has a better chance, sure it does not happens everytime, but you have more chance to get it than not to got it.

...

The more I play with Skymin, the more I feel it should be banned.

However, it has been rejected numerous times in this thread that a certain amount of hax (or even hax in any quantity) is enough alone to ban something. It's not just been me. Stratos, Audiosurfer, Darkmalice, and others have all said similar things. Skymin is broken or it's not. What we call hax is a factor in that, for sure, as yes Serene Grace is a defining attribute of Skymin. But it cannot be sole factor because yeah on paper it looks a tad ridiculous but in practice numerous people, including Luckstard himself, have called it manageable.

And if you don't actually think it's broken (and he doesn't), you just can't vote to ban. That's absurd.
Ban it if it is broken, don't ban it if it's not. It's that simple.