Resource LC Viability Rankings

[tazz]

Me!

Also I'd like to object to the change of Tirtouga to B+ as even though the meta has kinda swung out of its favor, it still has a ton of power and is at least on par with Shellder. It's got Sturdy and huge physical bulk to set up with, and being unable to be OHKOed at full HP is not to be taken lightly. Dwebble can do the same but I'm not really sold on how great that is, and it also lacks priority which is another big part of Tirtouga's success, being the only Shell Smasher in LC to be able to avoid Sucker Punch. Don't get me wrong, I haven't been swept by or had problems with Tirtouga in a good while, but it can still hurt and if we aren't going to keep it A-, I'd suggest moving Shellder down with it since it is surely not better than Tirtouga.

For a move-down that I do support, how about Ponyta? I have not seen this Pokemon in a long time, and I wasn't even sold on it being A+ when it was first put there. The rise of trapping being everywhere has put a huge dent in Pony's viability, and while it's still annoying with Flame Body and has pretty great bulk, Attack, and recovery, it just seems a lot less effective than it used to be.

Shellder is probably the best smash in the meta, including omanyte, and I would definitely put it above tirtouga. Once pawniard or magnemite are removed from the other team (done by pressuring or trapping), shellder is incredibly difficult to stop from setting up and sweeping, just because of bulk and the surprising power of +2 icicle spear (OHKOs standard mienfoo after rocks, just to give an idea).

supporting ponyta to A

 

[Celestavian]

It needs a lot more than just Pawn and Mag gone; with an awful special bulk of 30/25 it can't set up on any special attacker at all without taking a ton of damage, and especially not after a Shell Smash. For example, even before a Smash, Abra KOes with Energy Ball 100% of the time, and Psychic also KOes 50% of the time after SR if it doesn't have E-Ball. Max Special Attack Skrelp actually OHKOes with Sludge Wave most of the time even without SR! It also suffers from 4MSS, as it would love to run all of Icicle Spear, Razor Shell, Rock Blast and Ice Shard in addition to Shell Smash, but because it can't it will always have some kind of coverage gap, no priority, or no STAB move to use. Not denying that it hits hard, and having a multi-hit move is really nice, but it still needs a ton of support, like Tirtouga, to do its sweep.

 

[Rowan]

yeah tirtouga=shellder imo. much easier time setting up thanks to solid rock or sturdy and has nice ajet priority for pawniard. stone edge is just about enough to get past grass types with a little wearing down of pump/foongus. and zenbutt can surprise mienfoo/croagunk. the sturdy set can pivot more than omanyte+shellder mid game as well as it can just get back up to full health, whilst being a fletchling switch in maybe once or twice, and then set up later, something which shellder+omanyte can't do. keep it at A-.

 

[tazz]

It needs a lot more than just Pawn and Mag gone; with an awful special bulk of 30/25 it can't set up on any special attacker at all without taking a ton of damage, and especially not after a Shell Smash. For example, even before a Smash, Abra KOes with Energy Ball 100% of the time, and Psychic also KOes 50% of the time after SR if it doesn't have E-Ball. Max Special Attack Skrelp actually OHKOes with Sludge Wave most of the time even without SR! It also suffers from 4MSS, as it would love to run all of Icicle Spear, Razor Shell, Rock Blast and Ice Shard in addition to Shell Smash, but because it can't it will always have some kind of coverage gap, no priority, or no STAB move to use. Not denying that it hits hard, and having a multi-hit move is really nice, but it still needs a ton of support, like Tirtouga, to do its sweep.

I think you're really underrating shellder and really overrating tirtouga as a smasher. Tirtouga=shellder is honestly absurd, sure shellder has some cons but it's pros greatly outweigh those. Just going through tirt vs shellder (big cons and pros bolded),

Shellder:
Pros:
- Multi hit moves
- enough physical bulk to easily set up on most physical attackers
- priority in ice shard
- LC rolls make rock blast/icicle spear ridiculously powerful, enough to kill most bulky pokemon after they've been knocked off
- pure water typing
- decent coverage in ice/rock
- basically every relevant check is trapped by diglett, and is forced out by fletchling
- if it doesn't actually get to set up can still punch holes
- sets up on and sweeps through fletchling after rocks
Cons:
- bad special bulk, can't set up on a lot of special attackers
- Needs Pawniard and other steels removed
- slight 4MSS
- needs some support
Tirtouga:
Pros:
- easily sets up
- extremely powerful attacks
- aqua jet allows it to beat pawniard if it wins 50/50s
- sturdy juice
- can run rocks on smash set if neccesary
- great coverage, can even go special to surprise people
- absurdly powerful stone edge
- sets up all over fletchling
Cons:
- It is revenged by 17 spe scarfers!!!!!!! (huge)
- 4MSS (you clearly state that shellder has it (which honestly isn't true at all but w/e) but tirtouga wants ss,sr,stone edge, aqua jet, earthquake, knock off, waterfall, zen headbutt, and a crapload of other stuff, its 4MSS is easily worse than shellder (if it even has 4MSS))
- Needs fighters removed or weakened
- needs stone edge to beat really bulky pokemon, which is prone to missing
- needs much more support than shellder
- relies on 50/50s to beat pawniard

just going from this I think it's clear that shellder=/=tirtouga

 

[The Avalanches]

Nominating Vullaby for a move to A.

This thing is just amazing right now. I'm not sure if it's just great in this metagame or I'm just realizing its potential, but Vullaby can deal with so much in this metagame. It can switch in on a decent portion of the metagame. and yet nothing likes to switch in on it. Brave Bird rips a chunk out of anything that doesn't resist it, U-turn keeps up offensive pressure, and Roost can make Vullaby even harder to wear down. Knock Off is utterly amazing, and Vullaby's is the second most powerful in the tier. Nothing likes to take one, and even Pokemon that can switch into Vullaby, such as Pawniard and Ferroseed, hate being worn down, in addition to running the risk of taking a rare Heat Wave from offensive mixed variants.

It's stats are just amazing. I've recently run a more offensive variant of Vullaby (156+ Atk) and it is still really bulky and fast, able to wall most of the same things it could before. Conversely, defensive Defog variants are still able to hurt switch ins, although the Defog set has fallen out of favour for Rapid Spinners, the defensive set can simply run U-turn or Heat Wave.

There's also the Weak Armor + Nasty Plot set, but whatever.

It's really good in this metagame, and it's my favourite Flying-type at the moment. Brave Bird off 15 Attack hits harder than Fletchling's Acrobatics, I might mention, and it can OHKO most of the Fighting-types in the tier.

 

[Celestavian]

I think you're really underrating shellder and really overrating tirtouga as a smasher. Tirtouga=shellder is honestly absurd, sure shellder has some cons but it's pros greatly outweigh those. Just going through tirt vs shellder (big cons and pros bolded),

Shellder:
Pros:
- Multi hit moves
- enough physical bulk to easily set up on most physical attackers
- priority in ice shard
- LC rolls make rock blast/icicle spear ridiculously powerful, enough to kill most bulky pokemon after they've been knocked off
- pure water typing
- decent coverage in ice/rock
- basically every relevant check is trapped by diglett, and is forced out by fletchling
- if it doesn't actually get to set up can still punch holes
- sets up on and sweeps through fletchling after rocks
Cons:
- bad special bulk, can't set up on a lot of special attackers
- Needs Pawniard and other steels removed
- slight 4MSS
- needs some support
Tirtouga:
Pros:
- easily sets up
- extremely powerful attacks
- aqua jet allows it to beat pawniard if it wins 50/50s
- sturdy juice
- can run rocks on smash set if neccesary
- great coverage, can even go special to surprise people
- absurdly powerful stone edge
- sets up all over fletchling
Cons:
- It is revenged by 17 spe scarfers!!!!!!! (huge)
- 4MSS (you clearly state that shellder has it (which honestly isn't true at all but w/e) but tirtouga wants ss,sr,stone edge, aqua jet, earthquake, knock off, waterfall, zen headbutt, and a crapload of other stuff, its 4MSS is easily worse than shellder (if it even has 4MSS))
- Needs fighters removed or weakened
- needs stone edge to beat really bulky pokemon, which is prone to missing
- needs much more support than shellder
- relies on 50/50s to beat pawniard

just going from this I think it's clear that shellder=/=tirtouga

I was thinking it kinda dumb for Shellder to not run a STAB move, but I guess it doesn't really add anything coverage-wise and it does less damage than Icicle Spear or Rock Blast even without STAB, so I suppose it doesn't really have as bad of 4MSS as I thought. Speaking of "without STAB", that's Shellder's main problem as well: it doesn't get a STAB bonus on any of its most common moves. I'm pretty sure it would be broken if it did, but as it stands, Shellder is missing out on a lot of power, especially on Ice Shard, without STAB on its main attacking moves. Icicle Spear and Rock Blast still hit like a truck when boosted, but before that, it kinda lacks in power. Also, in what way is every relevant check trapped by Diglett or forced out by Fletchling? Porygon and Ferroseed sure aren't, to name a few, and I highly doubt that the combination of the two can force out or kill every special attacker in the metagame, all of whom I consider a check, at least when Shellder is unboosted if not after boosting as well.

As for Tirtouga, I think you are drastically overstating its 4MSS for the Shell Smash set. Why does a set based on sweeping really want SR? Why does a Pokemon who only has Ferroseed and Croagunk that resists its STABs in LC want Knock Off? Why does it need Earthquake at all? Zen Headbutt is a good option for hitting Fighters, but certainly Tirtouga is allowed to have support from its team to weaken or remove them. You mention Diglett and Fletchling for Shellder, why not Tirtouga? Stone Edge/Waterfall/Aqua Jet is what it wants 95% of the time. Stone Edge can miss, but Rock Blast can as well even if the chance is lower. I also don't understand why Tirtouga needs a lot more support than Shellder since Tirtouga can set up on a lot more Pokemon since it isn't deathly allergic to special attackers and has SturdyJuice nonsense. Tirtouga's Stone Edge also does the same or more damage than Shellder's Icicle Spear and Rock Blast do, so it doesn't need too much more weakening with the exception of targets that you have to hit with Waterfall. Perhaps more support, but not "much more".

I am not trying to say that Shellder is awful and Tirt is God, but what I am saying is that they are quite similar, which is why I believe they should be tiered the same: A-.

 

[tazz]

I was thinking it kinda dumb for Shellder to not run a STAB move, but I guess it doesn't really add anything coverage-wise and it does less damage than Icicle Spear or Rock Blast even without STAB, so I suppose it doesn't really have as bad of 4MSS as I thought. Speaking of "without STAB", that's Shellder's main problem as well: it doesn't get a STAB bonus on any of its most common moves. I'm pretty sure it would be broken if it did, but as it stands, Shellder is missing out on a lot of power, especially on Ice Shard, without STAB on its main attacking moves. Icicle Spear and Rock Blast still hit like a truck when boosted, but before that, it kinda lacks in power. Also, in what way is every relevant check trapped by Diglett or forced out by Fletchling? Porygon and Ferroseed sure aren't, to name a few, and I highly doubt that the combination of the two can force out or kill every special attacker in the metagame, all of whom I consider a check, at least when Shellder is unboosted if not after boosting as well.

Shellder having no STAB on its moves is unfortunate, but even without STAB it's not really a problem at all as icicle spear and rock blast are both 125 base power moves boosted to who knows what by LC rolls. Even without boosts, shellder is plenty powerful, I'm not sure where you're coming from there (scarf shellder is actually a thing, which hits plenty hard). porygon and ferroseed (and the other bulky mons) are naturally worn down over the course of the battle, and +2 icicle spear will always do a crapton of damage. and how is every special attacker in the metagame a check……..

As for Tirtouga, I think you are drastically overstating its 4MSS for the Shell Smash set. Why does a set based on sweeping really want SR? Why does a Pokemon who only has Ferroseed and Croagunk that resists its STABs in LC want Knock Off? Why does it need Earthquake at all? Zen Headbutt is a good option for hitting Fighters, but certainly Tirtouga is allowed to have support from its team to weaken or remove them. You mention Diglett and Fletchling for Shellder, why not Tirtouga? Stone Edge/Waterfall/Aqua Jet is what it wants 95% of the time. Stone Edge can miss, but Rock Blast can as well even if the chance is lower. I also don't understand why Tirtouga needs a lot more support than Shellder since Tirtouga can set up on a lot more Pokemon since it isn't deathly allergic to special attackers and has SturdyJuice nonsense. Tirtouga's Stone Edge also does the same or more damage than Shellder's Icicle Spear and Rock Blast do, so it doesn't need too much more weakening with the exception of targets that you have to hit with Waterfall. Perhaps more support, but not "much more".

I am not trying to say that Shellder is awful and Tirt is God, but what I am saying is that they are quite similar, which is why I believe they should be tiered the same: A-.

I did overstate its 4MSS syndrome, but it definitely is a problem. Stone edge/Waterfall/aqua jet is probably the most optimal, but with that set it really struggles vs just about anything that resists Stone Edge and has decent bulk, not to mention stone miss. Stone edge still fails to kill bulkier mons such as porygon and spritzee, which is definitely worth noting. Sure rock blast can miss, but most of the time shellder will be using icicle spear as it doesn't rely on it's shaky move to KO bulkier mons like tirtouga does. I'm not talking about support to get setup opportunities, i'm talking about support to wear down its checks. Shellder really only needs SR and knock off support to work its magic (both of which literally every team should have), while tirtouga needs fighters removed or weakened, which is difficult in this meta, hazards removed (if sturdy juice), hazards on the other side of the field, and 17 spe scarfers removed. It is also checked by sturdyjuice users and sash abra/gastly, something that shellder doesn't suffer from. Tirtouga definitely needs more support, maybe not a lot more, but more.

 

[Rowan]

shellder is probaby the better sweeper, but imo tirtouga has more usefulness early-mid game, whilst shellder can basically do fuck all unless it's setting up. this ability to pivot a bit more is what makes tirtouga the same rank. for that reason it can work really well on hyper offensive teams, where the ability to pivot is more important. the ability to pivot into fletch and set up rocks, or knock something off makes it a really useful choice on certain teams. shellder is basically just a late game sweeper and doesn't succeed in doing much more else. shellder just isn't really versatile. it's tirtougas versatility imo that makes it the same level as it.

 

[Svalkenaeres]

Nominating Charmander for D Rank

I was looking for a sixth mon in a sun team and I first the mon who has Chlorophyll. Then Solar Power. And I found Charmander.
So I used Scarf Charmander first for fun, but after some battles, I noticed this thing was good and a really cool late game sweeper, and even wallbreaker under sun. Solar Power transform this thing into a nuke. Calcs :

Houndour is one of the most powerful fire sweeper in the whole metagame.
196+ SpA Houndour Fire Blast vs. 236 HP / 76+ SpD Eviolite Porygon in Sun: 15-18 (57.6 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And here is Charmander :

200+ SpA Solar Power Charmander Fire Blast vs. 236 HP / 76+ SpD Eviolite Porygon in Sun: 18-22 (69.2 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This calc is irrelevant, it's just in order to show how Charmander is powerful. Now some useful calcs :

Hide

200+ SpA Solar Power Charmander Ancient Power vs. 76 HP / 76 SpD Archen in Sun: 18-22 (78.2 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

196 SpA Houndour Dark Pulse vs. 76 HP / 76 SpD Archen: 13-16 (56.5 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(Dark Pulse : 80 x 1.5 = 60 x 2)

200+ SpA Solar Power Charmander Fire Blast vs. 212 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Spritzee in Sun: 22-27 (81.4 - 100%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

196+ SpA Houndour Fire Blast vs. 212 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Spritzee in Sun: 16-19 (59.2 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

There is probably a lot of others. Also LO Charmander under Sun give a free kill each time this thing can attack (but really frail and quite slow badly.)

Hide

200+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Charmander Fire Blast vs. 236 HP / 76+ SpD Eviolite Porygon in Sun: 23-29 (88.4 - 111.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

Also Charmander has Belly Drum and Dragon Dance but both are bad. However, Solar Power is in my opinion a really cool niche with its fire STAB and this thing deserves D more than a lot of actual D Rank, in my opinion. I'm actually #5 and #7 with this thing (even if the level of the ladder is actually weak imo). That shows that even if Charmander has a lot of failings (Movepool quite bad even if it's not that bad for me, Stealth Rock weakness, priority weakness, frail etc), this thing has a real niche in the current metagame.

 

[apt-get]

Nominating Charmander for D Rank

I was looking for a sixth mon in a sun team and I first the mon who has Chlorophyll. Then Solar Power. And I found Charmander.
So I used Scarf Charmander first for fun, but after some battles, I noticed this thing was good and a really cool late game sweeper, and even wallbreaker under sun. Solar Power transform this thing into a nuke. Calcs :

Houndour is one of the most powerful fire sweeper in the whole metagame.
196+ SpA Houndour Fire Blast vs. 236 HP / 76+ SpD Eviolite Porygon in Sun: 15-18 (57.6 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And here is Charmander :

200+ SpA Solar Power Charmander Fire Blast vs. 236 HP / 76+ SpD Eviolite Porygon in Sun: 18-22 (69.2 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This calc is irrelevant, it's just in order to show how Charmander is powerful. Now some useful calcs :

Hide

200+ SpA Solar Power Charmander Ancient Power vs. 76 HP / 76 SpD Archen in Sun: 18-22 (78.2 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

196 SpA Houndour Dark Pulse vs. 76 HP / 76 SpD Archen: 13-16 (56.5 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(Dark Pulse : 80 x 1.5 = 60 x 2)

200+ SpA Solar Power Charmander Fire Blast vs. 212 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Spritzee in Sun: 22-27 (81.4 - 100%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

196+ SpA Houndour Fire Blast vs. 212 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Spritzee in Sun: 16-19 (59.2 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

There is probably a lot of others. Also LO Charmander under Sun give a free kill each time this thing can attack (but really frail and quite slow badly.)

Hide

200+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Charmander Fire Blast vs. 236 HP / 76+ SpD Eviolite Porygon in Sun: 23-29 (88.4 - 111.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

Also Charmander has Belly Drum and Dragon Dance but both are bad. However, Solar Power is in my opinion a really cool niche with its fire STAB and this thing deserves D more than a lot of actual D Rank, in my opinion. I'm actually #5 and #7 with this thing (even if the level of the ladder is actually weak imo). That shows that even if Charmander has a lot of failings (Movepool quite bad even if it's not that bad for me, Stealth Rock weakness, priority weakness, frail etc), this thing has a real niche in the current metagame.

houndour has no LO in your calcs.

 

[Svalkenaeres]

Logic I guess. I put Choice Scarf who is one of the most common set.
I can put LO, but I will put LO Charmander, if you want.
With both LO, the outdamages is even best for Charmander.

 

[apt-get]

Logic I guess. I put Choice Scarf who is one of the most common set.
I can put LO, but I will put LO Charmander, if you want.
With both LO, the outdamages is even best for Charmander.

Choice Scarf Houndour isn't really... common? I dunno, I've never seen it
It seems logical, at least for me, to compare scarf charmander and LO Houndour: they're both fast, powerful fire-types. LO Charmander is too slow to do anything and gets too much recoil damage.

ScarfMander is simply outclassed: it cannot switch moves, doesn't have pursuit nor sucker punch priority, and no secondary STAB. Their damage outputs are equal, too.

 

[Rowan]

Choice Scarf Houndour isn't really... common? I dunno, I've never seen it
It seems logical, at least for me, to compare scarf charmander and LO Houndour: they're both fast, powerful fire-types. LO Charmander is too slow to do anything and gets too much recoil damage.

ScarfMander is simply outclassed: it cannot switch moves, doesn't have pursuit nor sucker punch priority, and no secondary STAB. Their damage outputs are equal, too.

charmander is as fast as dour. but yeah lack of sucker punch means bigger prone to revenging, and i agree it's basically outclassed by houndour.

since we recently decided to be more strict about D rank, and kick loads of mons out, i don't see why charmander deserves it

 

[Svalkenaeres]

charmander is as fast as dour. but yeah lack of sucker punch means bigger prone to revenging, and i agree it's basically outclassed by houndour.

since we recently decided to be more strict about D rank, and kick loads of mons out, i don't see why charmander deserves it

Yeah, but you have an LO Dour with 17 spd, and a Charmander 24 spd.Choiced yeah. But with the power of Fire Blast under sun, being choiced is not that crippling. K sucker punch is cool for the lack of speed but in late game Scarfmander is better than Hound LO imo, even if sucker punch can help. The thing that cripple charmander, is that outside of sun, it is totally outclassed. But in a very specific task (here, +20 speed mon under sun) this probably one of the best fire type of the metagame.

 

[Rowan]

Celestavian will now be hosting this, alongside myself still.

a new thread will be up soon, since this one is like 90 pages long now