-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139
- Thread starter AM
- Start date
- Status
The definitions in viability rankings are honestly pointless, and don't really help anything anyways. It's common sense that S mons are the most viable, and D mons are the least viable, and everything inbetween. Having the definitions is just a waste of space and honestly just mislead people into making bad arguments towards a certain mon rising or falling.
This particularly:
I'm not really sure if you mean you don't have all of the mons tiering memorized or the definitions, but both of those are pretty dumb anyways. Having the mons tiering memorized is helpful. but the whole point of having a thread like this is so you don't need to have the tiering memorized; you can just use the thread for reference whenever needed. Not having the definitions memorized is perfectly fine, because the definitions were quite stupid anyways and don't mean anything really.
Again, it's common knowledge S mons = most viable, D mons = least viable, etc. Having arbitrary definitions doesn't change that, it just serves to confuse people.
By that logic Weedle is D rank because it's one of the least viable mons you could use. The issue is the subjectivity of what is and isn't viable in competitive mons. Technically speaking, Shedinja is "viable," but it requires of fuck load of support, is extremely circumstantial, it's weak, and it's slow. Having definitions that draw the line in the subjectivity of viability, which merely means the capability of something to be used effectively, is necessary to be able to objectively rank the viability of all mons. At least a definition of D rank and S rank would be the most important, as then people would know exactly what quality of traits(such as how much support from teammates is necessary to cover the most significant flaws of a mon) constitutes the bare minimum of what we consider to be "viable" in the metagame, also what constitutes the cream of the crop in the metagame.
Lhet that's not happening
I can put a size 6 disclaimer all across the OP in Bold, Italics, and Underlined on every second line and people will still not get it and will always use it to justify some shitty logic based on theory than actually playing the game and seeing what's good and what isn't. Then we get into discussion about definition and other stuff not one person on ranking team or here will inevitably care about. I dumbed down the definitions before to almost Pre-K level and people still tried using and justifying points with it. Play the game, read what the others said above me, and find out what's good by actually playing the game. It's for the better.
Move on now.
I can put a size 6 disclaimer all across the OP in Bold, Italics, and Underlined on every second line and people will still not get it and will always use it to justify some shitty logic based on theory than actually playing the game and seeing what's good and what isn't. Then we get into discussion about definition and other stuff not one person on ranking team or here will inevitably care about. I dumbed down the definitions before to almost Pre-K level and people still tried using and justifying points with it. Play the game, read what the others said above me, and find out what's good by actually playing the game. It's for the better.
Move on now.
(You mentioned mmeta twice.)
None of those breakers you mentioned have the ability to set up/remove toxic spikes, very few don't need to resort to Hidden Power as you mentioned, very few are able to easily deal with fairies (MMeta, Gengar, Entei) and most of them are much more predictable than Nidoking, who can run moves such as Superpower, Sucker Punch, Fire Blast, Ice Beam, Thunderbolt or even Focus Miss. Nidoking should move up, but only to C-, as I don't think it's on Entei's level and is less consistent than other balance breakers.
Last edited:
Azu's AV set is so damn good and that is the set that makes it S. It is surprinsingly bulky on both sides while have enough power to be used as a blanket 1 time counter/check if you get cornered. It can act as a glue for your team and puts a lot of pressure on the enemy once it is out since the oppponent has to guess if it is AV, band or belly drum.
Some crazy calcs:
252 SpA Mega Sceptile Leaf Storm vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 362-428 (90.2 - 106.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 236-282 (58.8 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
While -1 play rough+ aqua jet is 83-87%
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 240-284 (59.8 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
While waterfall+aquajet is a ko.
It can be a 1 time stop to even offensive CharX and mega Altaria.
+1 192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 364-430 (90.7 - 107.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
It will never feel useless. One its biggest strenghs is knock off coupled with a favorable match up against a lot of megas. Priority can turn it into a late game win condition.
Some crazy calcs:
252 SpA Mega Sceptile Leaf Storm vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 362-428 (90.2 - 106.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 236-282 (58.8 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
While -1 play rough+ aqua jet is 83-87%
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 240-284 (59.8 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
While waterfall+aquajet is a ko.
It can be a 1 time stop to even offensive CharX and mega Altaria.
+1 192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 364-430 (90.7 - 107.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
It will never feel useless. One its biggest strenghs is knock off coupled with a favorable match up against a lot of megas. Priority can turn it into a late game win condition.
AV azu is by far the worst set, it doesn't have any form of reliable recovery, it doesn't really hit hard enough and is too slow. Aqua Jet just won't cut it, as it fails to KO any pokemon unless it's severely weakened.
AV is definetely good on azumarill because of its unique defensive typing, switching into dark, fire, water, and bug types, and the fact that it hits hard without an attack boosting item, especially if it has hw/wish support.
Did you try it?
It may not impress on paper (just like Clefable) but it does some serious work. The set won't sweep for you but it wins 1v1 against so many pokemon that it basically serves as a more offensive blanket check than Clefable. Against teams with antisynergy (use multiple threats with same counters/checks in order to overwhelm) or simply to close the holes in your team, it is incredible
It even wins against thundurus for example (when banded loses):
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 291-346 (72.5 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 238-282 (79.5 - 94.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
You should also note that if you survive the hit (much higher chance than other sets) you're almost as strong as the banded set: waterfall+aqua jet= banded waterfall. This is extremely important in practical play to calc for damage. There are many scenarii where you deal more damage since you can go with stab+aqua jet instead of banded aqua jet and that is at least twice the damage.
Basically, you can be sure it will throw a big wrench in your opponent's game plan.
Last edited:
The thing is that Azu has NO way of recovery, meaning it's gonna be worn down over time, so it's definitely not as effective as clef as a blanket check. This set may appear to be great against offense, but most pokemon outspeed it, and it really isn't powerful enough to OHKO something which isn't weak to its attacks. It can't even 2hko hoopa-U with Aqua Jet, which kinda speaks for itself. This means Azumarill is very easy to wear down, which is a problem other AV mons such as Torn-T and Tangrowth don't have due to regenerator. Also how is AV azu going to switch into thundy? It wins against it 1v1, but I'd rather not rely on it to beat Thundurus, and instead use something such as Weavile. Not to mention the threat of NP.
littlelucario: i suppose Healing Wish support might help it stay alive, but this is less of a problem for tangrowth/torn-T due to regenerator and thus they are more independent.
No need to bust out the mod orders, I wasn't trying to spark a heated debate or cause drama. If it will cause people to spend all their posts bickering, then I suppose defining the tiers isn't worth it. I suppose I'm just used to fighting game tier lists, which have very strict definitions and can often be assembled purely through processing enough match data.
Did want to clarify one thing though: So I understand that multiple usable sets can certainly bump up a pokemon's viability. This is solely due to unpredictability, correct? If, say, Clefable was actually 2 pokemon (Clefmagicguardble and Clefunawareble), would it still be S-tier, or would it possibly drop given that an opponent would feel safer with a belly drum or toxic?
I bust out mod orders so thread doesn't spiral into an inevitable downward trend, it's kind of a thing at times.
Unpredictability, splashability, effectiveness, granted subjective points as you can tell, is how placements are gauged. Normally the best set is what puts it at a rank position but stuff like splashability can hit that criteria of a rank as well. From a comparison and contrasting standpoint you have different pokemon occupying the same ranks so justification for drops or rises is based on what occupies that rank. There's not a clear cut and dry case but the last point is usually what sells it, among other factors.
Hmm. I suppose the main thing is I just need to think of this viability ranking as a resource rather than a guide. Useful for glancing at if I feel like trying [some role] to see if [some role] is good for my team, but less useful when it's time to really start digging down and refining.
So...you decided to restrict people from making their own nominations because of a few shit posts and restricted discussion to only a certain few pokemon instead of restricting discussion about Hoopa U for a while?
This has been bugging me lately do to the fact that I can't nominate a pokemon to rise or lower due to someone else's posts. Can you please tell me if we can at least suggest nominations to the Ranking Team, or if we just have to say to ourselves, "Damn, Keldeo's not on the discussion points. Oh well. Better suck it up and hope for next week."?
To avoid making this a shit post, I agree with Goodra going to C+. The assault vest set is extremely good at checking several pokemon, such as Charizard Y, Thundurus, Mega Venusaur, Ferrothorn, and Mega Alakazam. One if it's downsides, lacking recovery, can be made up for with wish support, especially since Goodra has great synergy with two common wish passers, Alomomola and Clefable. Goodra's mono dragon typing is pretty good, having resists to 4 common types In the tier (one of which becomes an immunity due to sap sipper) while only having weaknesses to Dragon, Fairy, and Ice. Goodra's typing is backed up by its amazing bulk. Goodra also has a wide move pool to deal with whatever you're team is having trouble with. Draco Meteor, while unboosted, still hits pretty hard on anything that doesn't resist it. Goodra also has access to Thunderbolt (Talonflame, Rain Team check) Fire Blast (Ferrothorn, Scizor switchins), Muddy Water (Talonflame, Fire types in general) and Sludge Bomb (Fairies). All of these, in my opinion, make Goodra C+ worthy. The only drawbacks are it's lack of recovery, lacking physical bulk, and generally being worn down by repeatedly switching into attacks and hazards.
Your argument against Nidoking really seems to boil down to you believing it is outclassed by the list of mons you gave without actually backing that up with any concrete facts or examples. For example, what makes Pangoro, a mon that has worse coverage, worse typing, and a reliance on Trick Room, a better balance than Nidoking? You dont expand on that and simply expect us to take you at your word that these mons are better.
As for the specific reasons that Nidoking is a good breaker, it has amazing coverage, letting it hit Heatran, Clefable, Jirachi, Altaria, Celebi, Ferrothorn, Scizor, Azumarill, Zapdos, Lati@s, Tornadus-T, Hippo, Landorus-T, Gliscor, Garchomp, Skarmory, Tangrowth, Klefki, Raikou, Mandibuzz, and Tyranitar for super-effective damage. And I dont really buy the speed issue, since of those listed, only Azu, Lati, Torn, Offensive Lando/Chomp and Raikou will commonly outspeed it (well, Azu hits it with prio). Not to mention, Nidoking can run Sucker Punch to beat certain faster threats such as Lati, Gengar and Zam. There are, of course, other walls that Nido can't hit for super-effective damage that it still 2HKOs like Rotom, Sableye, Quag, Slowbro, etc. That arguably makes it one of the best breakers in the tier, in terms of sheer breaking ability. The thing that really holds it back in my opinion is its relatively frail bulk. It can't really switch in on many attacks unless it resists them, though it does have an immunity to Toxic and T wave, meaning stuff like Klefki and Clefable are 100% free switch-ins (I guess outside of the rare Ice Beam Clef).
Let's also not forget that Nido can run SR and T Spikes rather well, since it has the added benefit of being able to KO the common Spinners/Defoggers of the tier on the switch (Starmie, Lati, and Excadrill all have a tough time switching in, whereas niche stuff like Empoleon, Zapdos, and Mandi are straight up beaten).
Nido is a standard sub-B mon. It's no something I would ever instinctively add to a team to fill a role off the bat, but it's something that can be built around fairly easily and has good results in my experience both using it and fighting against it. And it deserves at least C.
A few shit posts is a massive understatement, and I don't think I can emphasize that enough if you've been paying attention to some of the bursts of nonsense I've witnessed along with deleting. I think at minimum on a relatively active day I delete 5 posts of pure brainlessness in this thread, you're welcome btw. Hoopa-U was going to be a case of a bunch of theorymon at the time that needed to be ranked by team in the long run, simple as that. If you want a side of roses and dandelions with this response to cushion the reality it's not happening.
You can ask ranking team on the side, as in not on this thread, to raise or lower stuff and bring to discussion but they will be the ones to say yes or no if it'll end up as a discussion point. So technically yes you're gonna have to suck it up until next week when it's on the next slate in the end anyways.
Out of the courtesy to once again address and diminish the amount of salt in these kind of posts that this intends to attract everytime a decision is made, with a post that you clearly didn't read the aftermath of why I had to do this in the first place, I'm going to say if you plan on making posts like this of constant complaining don't bother. Keep it in Skype, keep it in PS, keep it on IRC, keep it off the thread. I'm just going to delete it next time and acknowledging that the upper portion of your post is a shit post with me keeping it there is now just providing way more gratitude than should be allowed. Move on.
dark/fighting isn't necessarily worse than poison/ground, as being able to hit T-tar, Heatran, Lati@s and Ferrothorn super-effectively is awesome. Also since when is pangoro reliant on trick room? Maybe you're talking about the SD set which yes, needs TR, but the AoA set can also fit on bulky offense teams that need an answer to mega sableye and lati@s.
yeah, fairies exist, but so does gunk shot.
I think you are missing the point by nit-picking Halcyon's post like that. Pangoro has awesome STAB coverage (including Knock off) with Gunk Shot to round up the fairies, that is true. But it still has slow-ass speed at base 58 and lacks any priority moves to remedy it which makes it unfortunately hard to use efficiently.
But whatever, the biggest difference between Pangoro and Nidoking is while Pangoro can hit everything neutrally, Nidoking can hit almost everything super-effectively. I want to stress out that that is a big reason why Nidoking can be so hard to switch into, because sheer force + life orb boosted ice beam and fire blast are gonna hurt a lot more that you would normally expect from a coverage move.
And Nidoking is one of the few mons who can switch into Clefable without giving a damn ^^
Last edited:
Honestly I don't think I've ever seen Pangoro once, even on Trick Room, whereas with the Nidos I've seen them multiple times even in world cup where it proved at least decently effective in multiple matches.
As a balance player, Nidoking/queen scare me. Their coverage is insane and they hit everything hard despite their seemingly low stats, not to mention that the coverage they do provide rips apart many common balance cores. Also, there's the huge fact that it's a clefable check that's immune to thunder wave, which I would argue alone is enough to get it out of D Rank for something that isn't a completely terrible pokemon. I have no clue how this can possibly be seen as worse than Pangoro, Zygarde, and Porygon 2 of all things and moving it up should be a no brainer.
As a balance player, Nidoking/queen scare me. Their coverage is insane and they hit everything hard despite their seemingly low stats, not to mention that the coverage they do provide rips apart many common balance cores. Also, there's the huge fact that it's a clefable check that's immune to thunder wave, which I would argue alone is enough to get it out of D Rank for something that isn't a completely terrible pokemon. I have no clue how this can possibly be seen as worse than Pangoro, Zygarde, and Porygon 2 of all things and moving it up should be a no brainer.
Last edited:
Updated
How did Klefki not go up? I'm pretty sure literally everyone supported it going to A.
Anyways, one mon I find really fun to use is Mega Pidgeot. Not many teams prepare for something to hit every single Hurricane with a high chance of Confusion. Just as Torn-T is able to do well in the tier as a pivot, Mega Pidgeot is able to act as a more offensive version, with the one limiting factor being the lack of coverage. Despite this, it's able to 2-3HKO most mons in the meta including Clefable and Zard Y. I wanna raise more discussion on it instead of nominating it, so what do you guys think?
252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 210-247 (50 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 202-238 (51.2 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 165-195 (55.5 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 202-238 (51.2 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 165-195 (55.5 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
p2
Banned deucer.
SIGILYPH FOR D RANK PLEASE
It's a really niche mon on offense and acts as a middle ground between Alakazam and Clefable. It has the powerful Fire/Ice coverage that Alakazam lacks, but the speed to actually outspeed shit that Clefable lacks, while also providing a nice Ground immunity. It's a neat option alongside mons weak to the likes of BulkyChomp such as a bunch of Fighting types as it breaks most of their counters. It also has a decent surprise factor since people dont seem to expect it at all and they usually expect the shitty cosmic power set. Sigi only fits on specific builds but that's why I'm only nomming it for D rank.
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou-258301292 no other decent replays because half the time i sacced it t1, but it actually does stuff in this one
It's a really niche mon on offense and acts as a middle ground between Alakazam and Clefable. It has the powerful Fire/Ice coverage that Alakazam lacks, but the speed to actually outspeed shit that Clefable lacks, while also providing a nice Ground immunity. It's a neat option alongside mons weak to the likes of BulkyChomp such as a bunch of Fighting types as it breaks most of their counters. It also has a decent surprise factor since people dont seem to expect it at all and they usually expect the shitty cosmic power set. Sigi only fits on specific builds but that's why I'm only nomming it for D rank.
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou-258301292 no other decent replays because half the time i sacced it t1, but it actually does stuff in this one
- Status