Stratos
Banned deucer.
Read the op?
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np: Doubles OU Stage 3 - Hate to Love You - SKYMIN HAS BEEN BANNED
- Thread starter Arcticblast
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going to reply anyways cuz y not
1) skymin is not "relatively bulky"... it doesn't get ohko'd by like kang sucker, sure, but it's the 3rd(?) most squishy mon in doubles ou
2) you say it's skilllessly used, but "paired with good teammtes" that sounds like good teambuilding and it definitely takes skill to use skymin, to give it room to shine, room to be able to not get stopped extremely easily, etc. Otherwise people would just always lead skymin+something and then get easy 6-0's ... clearly this isn't the case
3) Skymin really isn't hard to prepare for at all, there are a lot of mons that have great matchups and put enormous pressure that you yourself have mentioned, in addition to its crippling vulnerabilities.
wait i thought we don't need post anymore for the TC in the post McMehgan did it only said 8 votes???
BUGEDIT: this is correct. 8 votes. No posting necessary. However this Doubles test WAS done with a requirement to post in order to vote. Read the OP.
BUGEDIT: this is correct. 8 votes. No posting necessary. However this Doubles test WAS done with a requirement to post in order to vote. Read the OP.
Last edited by a moderator:
Will there be another np coming out soon to discuss the meta after skymin?
I dislike it just because its so difficult to work around; it has counters, but being forced to run a counter isn't healthy for the meta. At least the counters are commonly used, but most of them are banned in singles, and I really dislike being forced to run them. For now, I'm just going to run a trick room Dunsparce; that I feel is more balanced. You need one turn to set up, you can only flinch for 5 turns, and other pokemon paralyzed with body slam / nuzzle by a teammate will out speed you. Wonder when Dunsparce is going to have a suspect test... probably in the next generation when it receives an evolution / mega. Now that'll be fun to work around.
I think it should be banned just because it turns the meta into a coin flip. That's why evasion and moody is banned. Its okay on other pokemon because there's more options around it, but Shaymin is only countered by other top tiers. Also, when will Hoopa's alternate form be put in uber? Normal Hoopa's similar to other legendaries and belongs in OU, but unbound has the stats of Mewtwo, and shouldn't stay around.
I think it should be banned just because it turns the meta into a coin flip. That's why evasion and moody is banned. Its okay on other pokemon because there's more options around it, but Shaymin is only countered by other top tiers. Also, when will Hoopa's alternate form be put in uber? Normal Hoopa's similar to other legendaries and belongs in OU, but unbound has the stats of Mewtwo, and shouldn't stay around.
Retests never change anything. This would be a waste of time.
[19:16:30] Checkmater:Stratos can I post a thread discussing post-skymin meta or is that giong to be somewhere
[19:16:40] #Stratos:just use the np thread
yeah uhh
bunnies is going to be p o w e r f u l
I'm not going to make too many meta predictions but maybe pumpkin will be decent idk
also lo whimsi might have potential.. maybe... idk
are we going to redo samples?
[19:16:40] #Stratos:just use the np thread
yeah uhh
bunnies is going to be p o w e r f u l
I'm not going to make too many meta predictions but maybe pumpkin will be decent idk
also lo whimsi might have potential.. maybe... idk
are we going to redo samples?
Pastelle
we're all star stuff
I didn't participate in this suspect test because; one, I was too lazy to ladder and formulate a decent argument to post, and two, I didn't really have that strong of an opinion on Skymin. I could honestly see Skymin from both perspectives, and for a long time I was floating in the middle. I'm not necessarily glad Shaymin-S is gone, but I'm understanding. However this is going to impact the meta a lot.
First of all, hyper-offense teams won't be as dominating as it is now, since the amazing Keldeo-Skymin-Talon core is gone. Let's all get off the Hyper Offense Hype Train and move on.
Because of that, I see good-stuffs balanced bulky teams making a comeback. Sweet.
Like check said, bunnies are going to be everywhere, which is annoying as hell tbh. Because of that, Quick Guard, Thundurus, Amoonguss, and Frustration Kangaskhan are going to become far more common.
Also maybe Breloom will be good again
Those are my predictions for the Skymin-Free meta. Keep in mind they're only predictions and none of us really know what's going to happen.
First of all, hyper-offense teams won't be as dominating as it is now, since the amazing Keldeo-Skymin-Talon core is gone. Let's all get off the Hyper Offense Hype Train and move on.
Because of that, I see good-stuffs balanced bulky teams making a comeback. Sweet.
Like check said, bunnies are going to be everywhere, which is annoying as hell tbh. Because of that, Quick Guard, Thundurus, Amoonguss, and Frustration Kangaskhan are going to become far more common.
Also maybe Breloom will be good again
Those are my predictions for the Skymin-Free meta. Keep in mind they're only predictions and none of us really know what's going to happen.
The words "Breloom" and "good" are words that might be used together more often in a positive light now. Never thought I'd see the day.
Other Grass-types like Breloom, Virizion, and (surprise surprise!) LO Whimsicott are gonna be more usable now because they don't have to face competition from Skymin. The latter that I mentioned I really want to experiment more because it can beat the MuskaDeers and Base 110s (sans Mega Metagross) just like Skymin; I just never had the motivation to try it before because Skymin existed then, which isn't the case now.
I don't see anything else in the meta changing tbh; Skymin was just a cog in the Doubles machine that never really moved anything but was influential nonetheless. The same playstyles are more or less the same in viability (HO wasn't just SkyKeld cmon), except maybe FullRoom having more breathing room and other obvious stuff. All of them just appreciate one big thing, Skymin, being gone.
Bunnies may be more unforgiving now but l o l
Should be fun.
Other Grass-types like Breloom, Virizion, and (surprise surprise!) LO Whimsicott are gonna be more usable now because they don't have to face competition from Skymin. The latter that I mentioned I really want to experiment more because it can beat the MuskaDeers and Base 110s (sans Mega Metagross) just like Skymin; I just never had the motivation to try it before because Skymin existed then, which isn't the case now.
I don't see anything else in the meta changing tbh; Skymin was just a cog in the Doubles machine that never really moved anything but was influential nonetheless. The same playstyles are more or less the same in viability (HO wasn't just SkyKeld cmon), except maybe FullRoom having more breathing room and other obvious stuff. All of them just appreciate one big thing, Skymin, being gone.
Bunnies may be more unforgiving now but l o l
Should be fun.
yeah I've been playing around with grasswhistle offensive whimsi (took stratos' now illegal team and replaced skymin with whimsi) and honestly it's been doing pretty well. Grasswhistle imitates air slash, while not doing damage and giving coverage, still having that 55% to fuck over your opponent. It also gets a nice movepool, but admittedly shitty stats and 2% difference between skymin and whimsi DOES matter. However, it's prankster and can beat lots of threats skymin was terribly afraid of, while still providing grass coverage and hitting dragons.
Obviously skymin had loads of strengths, notably powerful grass stab and not having to always go for air slash, but whimsi has strengths too.
Still want to play around it more, but it seems like it has potential.
posting some replays to give a feel for how offensive whimsi plays... seems pretty decent so far but also not consistent (therefore hard to use on ladder) just like skymin.
http://pastebin.com/NiGVUJT2
http://pastebin.com/NiGVUJT2
hi please dear god don't use grasswhistle whimsi, thats just really bad and inconsistent. one reason why skymin was good with air slashes was because it was able to do damage at the same time; even if you didnt flinch, you still got in a good amount of damage. swaggers probably better than grasswhistle in all honesty because swagger has the chance to have an effect on a subsequent turn even if it fails on the first one.
i've had some success with a good offensive whimsicott set w/ life orb though. it's paired with megagar so obviously it's not for every team but prankster encore is fantastic on a more offensive team, giving you opportunities to quickly turn the momentum in your favor.
i really think for most teams, though, the banning of skymin represented the death of the offensive grasses ;_;
i've had some success with a good offensive whimsicott set w/ life orb though. it's paired with megagar so obviously it's not for every team but prankster encore is fantastic on a more offensive team, giving you opportunities to quickly turn the momentum in your favor.
Whimsicott @ Life Orb
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Giga Drain
- Moonblast
- Encore
- Protect
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Giga Drain
- Moonblast
- Encore
- Protect
i really think for most teams, though, the banning of skymin represented the death of the offensive grasses ;_;
sigh still can't post anything without getting immediately dismissed by people choose to theorymon rather than actually, you know, try the set or something
grasswhistle whimsi literally does everything lo whimsi does but alleviates its poor matchups (similarly to skymin having the flexibility of staying in on some of its bad matchups) with grasswhistle. You can say "oh it's 55% not good" but 55% to win the game is huge. In many contexts where I've used it, similarly to skymin, I only need something like 1/3 or 2/4 whistles to actually hit and I've won the game. And, unlike skymin, nothing can switch into whistle
Jesus why am I trying to defend a set to someone who obviously has never used it.
grasswhistle whimsi literally does everything lo whimsi does but alleviates its poor matchups (similarly to skymin having the flexibility of staying in on some of its bad matchups) with grasswhistle. You can say "oh it's 55% not good" but 55% to win the game is huge. In many contexts where I've used it, similarly to skymin, I only need something like 1/3 or 2/4 whistles to actually hit and I've won the game. And, unlike skymin, nothing can switch into whistle
Jesus why am I trying to defend a set to someone who obviously has never used it.
Whimsicott @ Focus Sash
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Grass Whistle
- Energy Ball
- Moonblast
- Encore
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Grass Whistle
- Energy Ball
- Moonblast
- Encore
It's bad because it's a grass type that can't even guarantee a 2hko on rotom-w. That set has zero damage output and you are relying ENTIRELY on a coinflip. Skymin on the other hand worked fine and didn't rely on having to use the coinflip to be useful, but if it had to, it could.
Let me just say this right off the bat: Whimsi and Skymin do absolutely different things. Comparisons are not valid. I shouldn't even tried to say it was similar to skymin in its probable immobilization kind of thing, because they really do absolutely different things. Would I use skymin in lots of contexts/attempts with offensive whimsi? The answer every time is no fucking shit of course I would. Are there advantages of whimsi over skymin? Of course there are. Does skymin do way more damage with seed flare? No shit it does.
Things whimsi does: no such thing as a whistle switchin, encore locking, fairy coverage, set bluffs. Things skymin does: shitloads of damage and good coverage and support for team.
Also on a different note if you're using scarf and not creeping other scarf (aka landot 281) you can go to something like 240 to cover serp, there are meta threats like darkrai / weavile / raikou, etc but it's interesting that we can save some hp evs on our scarf mons now.
Things whimsi does: no such thing as a whistle switchin, encore locking, fairy coverage, set bluffs. Things skymin does: shitloads of damage and good coverage and support for team.
Also on a different note if you're using scarf and not creeping other scarf (aka landot 281) you can go to something like 240 to cover serp, there are meta threats like darkrai / weavile / raikou, etc but it's interesting that we can save some hp evs on our scarf mons now.
i think ur set is garbage ur probably better off using serperior or breloom or lilligant bevause they dont rely on 55% AND do dmg. ur set is shit bc skymin did dmg and whimsicott does 0% dmg edit: also why so much violence in your post qsns just said the truth and then u started sayinh mean things :(
From an offensive standpoint, the things they check overlap. Skymin's individual traits and wider pool of mons it can check, very more often than not, was more worth it than Offensive Whimis's. While Offensive Whimsi does have its own perks, no one used it over Skymin because of obvious reasons. An Offensive Whimisicott would be almost fully overshadowed by Skymin if it were still legal (which it isn't surprise!)
Little past the point, but the song in the OP is amazing. Just wanted to point that out.
Stratos
Banned deucer.
Bump? Bump. We should really use this thread more.
I have been absolutely loving Icy Wind Sashgar lately; I'm not really sure why but i just love it. It can lead without fear against like, almost anything, and stay on the field for way longer than you would expect given the nature of what it is. Doesn't fear Kang, especially with Inner Focus being common (though I still play careful vs Kangs when I don't know the ability), manhandles scarf lando with icy wind (doing like 70% and slowing it down might even be better than killing because then you can icy wind AGAIN the next turn while setting up a subtran or something). Icy Wind is good speed control in general because it works on Diancie and Lando, but doesn't require reworking your team like Trick Room, and Tailwind is gay. I had thought Icy Wind wasn't good in this meta but it turns out the problem isn't with the move, it was with the pansy ass defensive do nothing sub bait users that everyone had been using (which still suck ass). SashGar is right up there with defensive thund in terms of support mons in this meta.
I have been absolutely loving Icy Wind Sashgar lately; I'm not really sure why but i just love it. It can lead without fear against like, almost anything, and stay on the field for way longer than you would expect given the nature of what it is. Doesn't fear Kang, especially with Inner Focus being common (though I still play careful vs Kangs when I don't know the ability), manhandles scarf lando with icy wind (doing like 70% and slowing it down might even be better than killing because then you can icy wind AGAIN the next turn while setting up a subtran or something). Icy Wind is good speed control in general because it works on Diancie and Lando, but doesn't require reworking your team like Trick Room, and Tailwind is gay. I had thought Icy Wind wasn't good in this meta but it turns out the problem isn't with the move, it was with the pansy ass defensive do nothing sub bait users that everyone had been using (which still suck ass). SashGar is right up there with defensive thund in terms of support mons in this meta.
And on topic of weird sets/pokemon (almost) no one uses I present you SD Talonflame. This set looks terribad at a first glance but hear me out. This set is my alternative whenever I don't want Steel Wing or Tailwind (which is like 60% of the time), it provides stupid amounts of offensive pressure, as just the threat of a Talonflame OHKOing your entire team (it does that) at +2 is ridiculous. Sure, recoil is a problem, but you can run leftovers to mitigate it, who needs LO when you are +2. You can also run Sharp Beak to OHKO Mega Kangaskhan and have 75% to kill Landorus-Therian at +1, if you choose to use it as bait. The only problem with this set is setting up, but SD on Talonflame can be so unexpected that most of the time when people predict your switch or Protect, you can setup and kill them afterwards. Talonflame is easily predictable, but you can make use of that predictability to setup SD. And obviously, bringing a team that supports Talonflame with redirection or whatever works.
And this is what I like the most about the doubles meta, there's a lot of room for innovation within viability, you can use stuff like Clefairy or Tangela and get away with it. As our viability rankings show, even the Pokemon in Rank 3 can be made viable with the right team, and maybe all the hidden ops we haven't figured out yet. Sure, we have a predominant core in THALK/CHALK, but when did anyone say that that was bad? Having a predominant core means that we can run a diverse variety of Pokemon to beat that core. For example, a part of what makes Kube viable is how it can 150% dick on FWG without much effort. The predominance of Pokemon that can deal with CHALK or other common things makes new Pokemon rise up to the light, such as Darkrai, Volcarona and Gengar, all of which have been seeing some usage lately.
So using that as pretext I'd like to raise discussion: How far can innovation go? What are your favorite choices that weren't a thing a while ago?
all hail doubles the superior smogon meta.
sorry if i accidentaly talked shit which i probably did because i'm a dumbass
And this is what I like the most about the doubles meta, there's a lot of room for innovation within viability, you can use stuff like Clefairy or Tangela and get away with it. As our viability rankings show, even the Pokemon in Rank 3 can be made viable with the right team, and maybe all the hidden ops we haven't figured out yet. Sure, we have a predominant core in THALK/CHALK, but when did anyone say that that was bad? Having a predominant core means that we can run a diverse variety of Pokemon to beat that core. For example, a part of what makes Kube viable is how it can 150% dick on FWG without much effort. The predominance of Pokemon that can deal with CHALK or other common things makes new Pokemon rise up to the light, such as Darkrai, Volcarona and Gengar, all of which have been seeing some usage lately.
So using that as pretext I'd like to raise discussion: How far can innovation go? What are your favorite choices that weren't a thing a while ago?
all hail doubles the superior smogon meta.
sorry if i accidentaly talked shit which i probably did because i'm a dumbass
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