Lower Tiers PU Viability Rankings

[pokemonisfun]

I would like to please nominate Wailord to D rank because of the merits of this set
Wailord @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Def / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Aqua Ring
- Substitute
- Scald

This functions a lot like Stallrein in the past two gens as well as Sub Protect Poison Heal Gliscor and Sub leech seed....basically you alternate between sub and protect and wait for your opponent to die from toxic spikes/get pp stalled. You need to set up aqua ring first obviously or you lose net hp. It works best on a stall team since they typically provide spin/defog support, cleric support, wish support, and a toxic user, all of which help make this into a semi reliable "win condition" of sorts. toxic spikes is really the only ancillary service wailord requires. it also has decent bulk to function like a typical bulky water imo

unfortunately it faces a lot of competition from politoed and requires so much support so it can only function on stall which is a less than stellar playstyle according to most people because of too many threats. additionally it takes 2 turns to set up so it can only come in on things it forces out if it wants to set up rather than just soaking up a hit and setting up in one turn like most traditional win conditions.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-257867110

I have a lot more replays of wailord...to be honest with you it usually doesn't work as well as the above one but this demonstrates the strategy i was talking about. i would say its a threat to about 70% or so of the teams i saw when i was on top of the ladder and managed to actually set up about 20% of the time while in nearly 95% of the games being able to function as a typical bulky water

 

[Mistress Remilia]

I would like to please nominate Wailord to D rank because of the merits of this set
Wailord @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Def / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Aqua Ring
- Substitute
- Scald

This functions a lot like Stallrein in the past two gens as well as Sub Protect Poison Heal Gliscor and Sub leech seed....basically you alternate between sub and protect and wait for your opponent to die from toxic spikes/get pp stalled. You need to set up aqua ring first obviously or you lose net hp. It works best on a stall team since they typically provide spin/defog support, cleric support, wish support, and a toxic user, all of which help make this into a semi reliable "win condition" of sorts. toxic spikes is really the only ancillary service wailord requires. it also has decent bulk to function like a typical bulky water imo

unfortunately it faces a lot of competition from politoed and requires so much support so it can only function on stall which is a less than stellar playstyle according to most people because of too many threats. additionally it takes 2 turns to set up so it can only come in on things it forces out if it wants to set up rather than just soaking up a hit and setting up in one turn like most traditional win conditions.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-257867110

I have a lot more replays of wailord...to be honest with you it usually doesn't work as well as the above one but this demonstrates the strategy i was talking about. i would say its a threat to about 70% or so of the teams i saw when i was on top of the ladder and managed to actually set up about 20% of the time while in nearly 95% of the games being able to function as a typical bulky water

Let's make this short:
1- Stall sucks: Literally, it's a shitty playstyle in PU that wins almost 0 matchups vs other archetypes.
2- Please ask the auth of the PU room if you wanna fight & test something: Your opponent was god awful & if he was actually good, he would use CM Clefairy over CP, who sweeps you, and leads into my 3rd point.
3- Passive shit: Any setup sweeper setups on this thing because it's weak as shit.
4- Politoed: A thing that does same work only it's not shit, it doesn't learn Aqua Ring but who cares ?_?

Tl;dr Wailord stays E

 

[pokemonisfun]

Mistress Remilia...you're simply not right. I know the set looks funny because aqua ring and pp stalling is rarely seen in competitive play which is why I explained myself but you just missed some of my points.

1)I addressed stal';s viability but I have made stall teams that cover 95%+ of the metagame so its far from a shitty playstyle that gets close to 0 good match ups.
2)I know my opponent was bad...if he used CM clefable he still would have lost...you realize he never got a chance to touch wailord so moonblast wouldnt have been a problem at +6. I have better replays but I was just too lazy to find them...my smogon is extremely laggy so if u guys want do me a favor and go to the discussion page for pu analysis to see more replays there at the end of the thread...not trying to self advertise but seriously my smogon is like messed up. a mod who sees this can feel free to delete the bolded part and just cp the replays from the thread into this post
3)youre just incorrect...set up sweepers like the suspcted carracosta and bar can't even touch me and they just quickly kill themselves with life orb or slowly waste al their pp. or if you use toxic spikes as i reccomend then they die even quicker
4)name what politoed does that wailord can't...i know it has lots of benefits like reliable perish song and water absorb but so wailord has benefits too which i mentioned. why would you just ignore these benefits?

 

[Relaxed Dedenne]

Mistress Remilia...you're simply not right. I know the set looks funny because aqua ring and pp stalling is rarely seen in competitive play which is why I explained myself but you just missed some of my points.

3)youre just incorrect...set up sweepers like the suspcted carracosta and bar can't even touch me and they just quickly kill themselves with life orb or slowly waste al their pp. or if you use toxic spikes as i reccomend then they die even quicker

Korracosta just sets up on you with shells smash, and Pp stalling isn't seen for a reason, its just bad

 

[Anty]

I don't think some of you understand this set. With leftovers and aqua ring you get 12.5% of health a turn, so after subbing up and protecting you lose no health, and with pressure, you can actually pp stall (this is much easier with toxic spikes). Set up sweepers cannot reliably set up on it as they can get pp stalled, and this set gives stall a way to beat pokes like duosion. This set does clearly have a niche, however there are major problems to it. Firstly stall is a bad playstyle (even other defensive teams are hating the metagame). Im not saying its unviable, but despite what you say, hilarius, i doubt you can 95% of the metagame, and even then rarely seen pokemon can just murder it. The wailord set is also a niche mon on stall, though this isn't a reason to leave it unranked, it means that it probably wont get out of d rank. Lastly, there is counter play. Taunt, encore, and even infiltrator pluff, although arent on every team, those three can almost shut down wailord. Offensive teams also heavily pressure it to the extent it might not be able to do normal things (but it actually doesn't have mediocre bulk so can check stuff like floatzel). Overall, wailord does have some big flaws but I don't see it going d-rank to be too farfetch'd, especcially considering we have tropius there that doesn't actually have a niche (should be e lol), and even other mons like chimecho are ridiculously niche. Overall i'm neutral on wailord but people really shouldn't dismiss it so easily.

I'm not sure if flareon should go up to c, but defo not c+. Flareon is pretty similar to other powerful wallbreakers, but does have notible flaws compared to others (like relicant, rampardos, etc). Firstly, it has huge competition from rapidash. Obviously they do have different jobs, as flareon is just played as a nuke, whereas rapidash can be used as a switch in to things like ninetales (while also being a RKer and having better coverage), and in this metagame, rapidash's niche is much more important due to how offensively-orientated it is. Flareon has also got a worse matchup vs offensive teams unlike some others. Relicanth can at least check stuff like dodrio and stoutland, but now ninetales is out of favour, flareon can only take a limitted amount offensive hits after stealth rock. Lastly, fire is a horrible STAB move to get locked into. This may change after the suspect, but not even doing 25% to carracosta is horrible as it means costa doesn't have to worry about being warn down by LO. The power is cool, but even cb rap might be better due to its speed (though it hits noticbly weaker).

The main reason to move lickilicky up would be the SD set (which i have been using recently). There is a really small hole in the metagame which it can actually fill. SD/Return/Power Whip/EQ is what I have been running (knock off + hammer arm could also be used, or maybe even sd/return/wishtect), and its a really good way to break defensive cores as once you have set up, the only common defensive mons that can take it on are ghost types (you OHKO pilo after rocks). Also as a wallbreaker, it doesn't have a shocking matchup vs offensive teams, as even with max HP it can still check quite a few pokemon (more noticeably weaker ones like scarf mime and sash kadabra), and it also baits in costa and barb (w/o a boost you OHKO barb and do 88% min to costa). Licki is also a great partner for Pokemon like dodrio and fraxure which like certain walls weakened or KO'd. I'm not suggesting a change yet because i haven't tested it enough but i just felt like i should mention it.

 

[ExplosiveChaos]

Mistress Remilia...you're simply not right. I know the set looks funny because aqua ring and pp stalling is rarely seen in competitive play which is why I explained myself but you just missed some of my points.

1)I addressed stal';s viability but I have made stall teams that cover 95%+ of the metagame so its far from a shitty playstyle that gets close to 0 good match ups.
2)I know my opponent was bad...if he used CM clefable he still would have lost...you realize he never got a chance to touch wailord so moonblast wouldnt have been a problem at +6. I have better replays but I was just too lazy to find them...my smogon is extremely laggy so if u guys want do me a favor and go to the discussion page for pu analysis to see more replays there at the end of the thread...not trying to self advertise but seriously my smogon is like messed up. a mod who sees this can feel free to delete the bolded part and just cp the replays from the thread into this post
3)youre just incorrect...set up sweepers like the suspcted carracosta and bar can't even touch me and they just quickly kill themselves with life orb or slowly waste al their pp. or if you use toxic spikes as i reccomend then they die even quicker
4)name what politoed does that wailord can't...i know it has lots of benefits like reliable perish song and water absorb but so wailord has benefits too which i mentioned. why would you just ignore these benefits?

Just a question, how are you going to PP stall on a SS smasher when they are faster than you? It is an easy win. Break sub, use Shell Smash on the Protect, and then because of Wailord's crappy defenses, 1HKO with Stone Edge, or atleast 2HKO even with all your leftover Aqua Ring stall. So pretty much, Wailord is just set up bait, which horrible in a tier that is filled with amazing setup attackers. And the second thing, which makes me laugh, is that you can just stall out Wailord. It can't protect and sub forever. And the reason stall isn't good is because of the amount of wall breakers / setup attackers in the tier. Stall is just not strong enough to stop those huge threats.
+2 252 Atk Carracosta Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Wailord: 537-633 (98.7 - 116.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

 

[ChrystalFalchion]

Wailord in general isn't very good in PU. That great HP is undermined by poor defences, and its attacking stats are mediocre too. Simipour is a better special water type; Carracosta is a better physical water type; Pelliper is a better defensive water type. Really, there's virtually nothing Wailord can do that something else can't do better.

 

[termi]

Wailord in general isn't very good in PU. That great HP is undermined by poor defences, and its attacking stats are mediocre too. Simipour is a better special water type; Carracosta is a better physical water type; Pelliper is a better defensive water type. Really, there's virtually nothing Wailord can do that something else can't do better.

None of these Pokemon do even remotely the same thing Wailord does, comparing them only shows how lacking your knowledge of the metagame is. Wailord definitely isn't a great Pokemon, and stall isn't a great playstyle either atm, but Wailord clearly does have a niche (did you even read the nomination? It shows that Wailord can do smth other Water types can't), as small as it may be, and therefore, a nom for D rank is valid. I don't care what happens to it myself, but you really shouldn't post if you have nothing to add to the discussion. We're more than happy to teach you more about the metagame on the forums and in our room on PS, but until you have a better understanding of it, you should stick to lurking in most of these threads.

 

[ChrystalFalchion]

OK, so what exactly is Wailord's niche? It could use choice items I guess with that STAB Water Spout.

 

[termi]

OK, so what exactly is Wailord's niche? It could use choice items I guess with that STAB Water Spout.

Read the nomination by hilarious on the previous page and his response to Mistress Remilia

Make sure you read all of the argument before posting! Otherwise you might say or ask about things that have already been said.

 

[ChrystalFalchion]

I did read the posts - according to Mistress Remilia, it's niche is so small as to be barely worth mentioning when stall itself is a bad playstyle in PU. I don't recall battling one stall team in my current PU ladder, although I'm not especially far up the ladder yet (1260 ish). From the sounds of it, Wailord is almost completely outclassed by Politoed.

I think Kriketune could move up to C-: it's a decent Sticky Web lead, and with Taunt and Endevor it can cripple walls and take something else down to 1 HP.

 

[kay]

The niche it has is something Politoed can't do. What it aims to do recover with aqua ring and lefties so it heals more then substitute will take from it, and then pp stall things out with pressure. Thats the niche that other water types that you listed you can't do, and is something stall could use. So in that regaurd it is NOT out classed by other water types in that role.

Now personally after first looking at it I dismissed it, but after looking at it again I think it has enough merit for D as it can pp stall with Pressure, and if it manages to set up, it can be a pain to deal with against teams that lack things like encore.

 

[MZ]

Yeah, I think there's been a lot of people misunderstanding what Wailord does every time it's been discussed. However, I'm still really unconvinced that it has any business being ranked. Wailord only has a place on stall, which is bad enough but considering how poor it is right now that just hurts a fair amount. Wailord has a massively hard time versus offensive teams, seeing as setting up can only happen versus very passive Pokemon and once that happens it's still vulnerable to Encore, Taunt and Infiltrator users. Even when it can set up versus teams, it needs to predict perfectly. As it's massive removal fodder, teams can generally switch around wailord a lot and it needs to call scald on the switch versus sub/protect on the attack over and over to not be forced out again. Yes it can do things like stall out CM duosion, but that's been fairly overhyped as stall does have other answers to it (shift gear klang beats non acid armor variants, zweilous, politoed, misdreavus, etc). I understand it can be a pain to face if it sets up while hazards are up and the other team has no remover, jumpluff, ground poison type, rest/talk, or encore/taunt users, but that's a perfect scenario for wailord to stall out teams and really isn't enough to get it ranked imo.

edit: If you're nomming Staryu to be ranked because of the defensive spinner set then please stop trying, it's worse than wartortle

 

[pokemonisfun]

Megazard

I am nominating for D rank...nobody is saying Wailord is good. D rank isn't for good pokemon. It's not even for mediocre Pokeon, its for barely viable Pokemon. Reread the OP urself to see the description, E rank is for Pokemon that aren't usable at all in the tier...and I have made pretty good case that is is usable.

And you still slightly undersell Wailord. It does NOT only set up on passive Pokemon...it sets up on any resisted choice move in the tier and if it gets that free turn then you can bet Wailord is going to survive the next turn since it can eat up stuff like LO Tbolt from Zebrastrika and set up the sub. And then you can stall from there.

Encore is highly unreliable to deal with Wailord since it only has 8 pp and if Wailord protects on it then you already lose half your pp to encore it once assuming it doesnt get a double protect. Taunt users have to beware of a decently powered scald and of course its burn chance(misdreavus is a poor switch in to wailord). Infiltrator is limited to jumpluff and ninjask, ninjask can only kill you when you're on low health and both are scared of scald burns, ninjask i believe is 2hko by scald.

it does not need to predict perfectly...the matchup i talk about a lot are against duosion and clefairy and both are slower than wailord so wailord only needs to protect a few hits to guarantee a pp stall. for instance moonblast has 24 pp cut down to 12 with pressure and assuming it has assist power thats another 8 factoring in pressure. thats only 20 hits total so you only need to get 4 protects in for you to have 16 subs...and thats also assuming clefairy didn't use any pp until then. it also needs no prediction versus choice users and most lo users since lo will wittle in 11 turns at most.

massive removal fodder? yes thats true in a way but you also beat defoggers and spinners if they switch in on you very easily and they risk getting scald burned if they do get rid of your hazards. not to mention that well everything on stall will be hazard removal fodder because stall is passive...remember the hazard users on stall are sturdy so they try to outlast the removers.

i think that covers most your points...please remember D rank is for undoubtedly bad pokemon. I've never tried to oversell wailord and i mentioned its flaws before...D rank is for pokemon with a niche...Wailord has a niche.

 

[MZ]

I won't touch on all the points since reading your post just shows me that you know how to cherrypick, but I do feel the need to say that misdreavus is in fact an excellent switch into wailord and yes, I understand it's D rank not A-, but it's still not good enough for that imo. Other than that you basically responded to the stuff you decided you could counter decently, so if you'd care to respond to any of the major points as to why wailord sucks then I'd be happy to listen (just in case you actually didn't read my post they were how everything needs to go absolutely perfect for it, it's somewhat of a liability versus teams with rest talk/taunt/are very offensive/encore to a degree, it can be switched around and does need very good prediction, it only fits on a fairly bad playstyle).

Anyway, I better respond to your arguments. "It sets up on choiced resisted hits" which are fairly rare but cool, "it can PP stall encore and hit taunt users hard with scald" it cant because scald is kinda weak to things like grumpig and missy and pp stall needs prediction so eh, "it can beat clef and duo" which we get but so can plenty of other things and "it can threaten removers with burns" which still doesnt mean much since they run recovery and have accomplished their job at this point (talking about the defoggers not the rare and mediocre spinners we have which any bulky water can cripple).

tldr

Megazard
i think that covers most your points... I've never tried to oversell wailord

lol @_@

edit: looking back on it this came out really harsh, but rather than edit it I'll just say I'm kinda sorry and not change it because it was a fairly terrible response

 

[HJAD]

Megazard

I am nominating for D rank...nobody is saying Wailord is good. D rank isn't for good pokemon. It's not even for mediocre Pokeon, its for barely viable Pokemon. Reread the OP urself to see the description, E rank is for Pokemon that aren't usable at all in the tier...and I have made pretty good case that is is usable.

And you still slightly undersell Wailord. It does NOT only set up on passive Pokemon...it sets up on any resisted choice move in the tier and if it gets that free turn then you can bet Wailord is going to survive the next turn since it can eat up stuff like LO Tbolt from Zebrastrika and set up the sub. And then you can stall from there.

Encore is highly unreliable to deal with Wailord since it only has 8 pp and if Wailord protects on it then you already lose half your pp to encore it once assuming it doesnt get a double protect. Taunt users have to beware of a decently powered scald and of course its burn chance(misdreavus is a poor switch in to wailord). Infiltrator is limited to jumpluff and ninjask, ninjask can only kill you when you're on low health and both are scared of scald burns, ninjask i believe is 2hko by scald.

it does not need to predict perfectly...the matchup i talk about a lot are against duosion and clefairy and both are slower than wailord so wailord only needs to protect a few hits to guarantee a pp stall. for instance moonblast has 24 pp cut down to 12 with pressure and assuming it has assist power thats another 8 factoring in pressure. thats only 20 hits total so you only need to get 4 protects in for you to have 16 subs...and thats also assuming clefairy didn't use any pp until then. it also needs no prediction versus choice users and most lo users since lo will wittle in 11 turns at most.

massive removal fodder? yes thats true in a way but you also beat defoggers and spinners if they switch in on you very easily and they risk getting scald burned if they do get rid of your hazards. not to mention that well everything on stall will be hazard removal fodder because stall is passive...remember the hazard users on stall are sturdy so they try to outlast the removers.

i think that covers most your points...please remember D rank is for undoubtedly bad pokemon. I've never tried to oversell wailord and i mentioned its flaws before...D rank is for pokemon with a niche...Wailord has a niche.

Palpitoad has a niche as well. It walls both Smashers, sets up SR and also walls a multitude of Pokémon in the meta (rapdidash, Klang etc). Has fantastic utility in Water Immunity + Electric Immunity and only one weakness to Grass. Palpitoad has a niche.

Palpitoad is also E Rank.

The reality of the matter is, despite its obvious utility and "niche" its not actually "good". And by good, I mean on par with mons in D Rank which have recognises niches. The set you showed us obviously gives wailord a niche, and I commend you for finding a niche for that otherwise useless Pokémon but in reality; where is it ever going to work? It's a cool set around pp stall, but outside of stall, it looks useless and pp stalling for the sake of it, not to mention settup fodder for loads of mons.

The significant amount of team support, rarity of opportunity for this to actually work and how bad the playstyle for this to actually work is in meta right now warrant E Rank imo.

 

[Rennyjesus]

About the Wailord issue... I've got to add a few things...

1.- Your set needs Toxic Spikes, which makes you almost for sure run Roselia... Ok, Roselia is a nice pokemon but if you are trying to use Toxic Spikes then you are probably running a defensive-stallish set, right? That will make a third of your team terribly passive in a tier where NP Simis, DD Fraxure and even things like BU Floatzel (I'm not saying its good just bringing it as example) or QD Butterfree can bring down a team after a few boosts... And of course, I'm not even mentioning the Smashers...
2.- You know that a lot of those things that I've mentioned in point 1, also have Taunt (And Butterfree just bypass subs with Bug Buzz)? Which will just make you deal pitiful damage with a non invested Scald (for God's sake, it can't even OHKO Simisear with a freaking STAB supereffective attack, which also means that it can't break another subs like Simipour's and Simisage's) and stop getting subs and protect...
3.- While your Rose sets Toxic Spikes, another Setup Sweeper can just... You know... Setup themselves... Or do you think that you will have 3, 4 or heck even 5 free turns? (One or two turns of Toxic Spikes, one to switch your Wailord that can be skipped if you sack your Rose, one for Aqua Ring and one for a Sub)
4.- You know that Wailord has 157 speed with 4evs? I think that a lot of things can outspeed that much speed and then beat the crap out of Wailord before it manages to get the sub, even if you can get the Aqua Ring on the switch (and if you get the sub, it will get broken when you try to setup Aqua Ring)...
5.- Infiltrator, Bug Buzz, Encore, Trick, Hyper Voice, Knock Off, Status Phazing, Any Status before you got the sub, Hippopotas Sand Stream, and of course Taunt just deals with that "Stallord"... That's a kinda big list for something that has a niche, especially when we consider that Knock Off, Taunt and Phazing are really common in this metagame...
6.- You know that Magic Guard Clefairy can also play mind games and get Calm Minds and do a lot of other shit like spending turns setting SR again and again, Recovering easily the damage at +6 and then PP Stall Wailord attacks? (SR has 32 pp that means 16 uses because of Pressure, Calm Mind also has 32 PP that are 32 uses because the move do not affect the enemy... Those are more than enough to deal with 24 PPs from Scald and even to make it burn a few PPs from Substitute, Aqua Ring, and Protect)
0 SpA Wailord Scald vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 51-60 (14.8 - 17.4%) -- possible 6HKO
0 SpA Wailord Scald vs. +6 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 19-24 (5.5 - 6.9%) -- possibly the worst move ever
7.- I would rather lead with a Scarf Wailord with Water Spout and spam that thing for a while, since at least can outspeed a few things and even has a decent chance for the 2HKO against the simis and a OHKO against uninvested Costa (Smash Costa)... And sadly that's not enough for a niche on PU IMO...

I really like low tiered Pokemon but that Wailor Set is just a Gimmick... Can be annoying and make a few people forfeit on frustration but nothing else...

Those are my two cents... See ya guys!
Edit: sorry... I've got greninja'd on a few things xD

 

[Anty]

These anti-rank posts make me want to rank it lol, so ill respond to some of them (tbh megazard, hilarius's post isnt really cherrypicking rather your response just seems ignorant)

Palpitoad has a niche as well. It walls both Smashers, sets up SR and also walls a multitude of Pokémon in the meta (rapdidash, Klang etc). Has fantastic utility in Water Immunity + Electric Immunity and only one weakness to Grass. Palpitoad has a niche.

Palpitoad is also E Rank.

The reality of the matter is, despite its obvious utility and "niche" its not actually "good". And by good, I mean on par with mons in D Rank which have recognises niches. The set you showed us obviously gives wailord a niche, and I commend you for finding a niche for that otherwise useless Pokémon but in reality; where is it ever going to work? It's a cool set around pp stall, but outside of stall, it looks useless and pp stalling for the sake of it, not to mention settup fodder for loads of mons.

The significant amount of team support, rarity of opportunity for this to actually work and how bad the playstyle for this to actually work is in meta right now warrant E Rank imo.

The part about palpitoad is irrelevant (though you wouldn't know that when you posted), as (i'm p sure) we (the VR team) were going to rank palpitoad, well at least I know that we acknowledged it is d-rank material in this current metagame. A big point of wailord is removing some of the more troubling set up sweepers for stall/other very defensive teams (like clef/duo), and outside of that, it can actually stall out a lot of pokes with toxic spikes (you can pp stall flying/levitators - the main issue with this strat tho is other rose/arbok but although it is matchup reliant, that isn't enough to keep it e-rank). You can actually pp stall most set up sweepers lol

The main reason to why this wouldn't be ranked is to do with matchup reliance (team support isnt even that much and stall's viability itself wouldnt keep out of d), and since it can effectively remove specific threats, possibly weaken the opp with toxic spikes, and even be a check to some pokemon means that it is enough for d-rank imo.

About the Wailord issue... I've got to add a few things...

1.- Your set needs Toxic Spikes, which makes you almost for sure run Roselia... Ok, Roselia is a nice pokemon but if you are trying to use Toxic Spikes then you are probably running a defensive-stallish set, right? That will make a third of your team terribly passive in a tier where NP Simis, DD Fraxure and even things like BU Floatzel (I'm not saying its good just bringing it as example) or QD Butterfree can bring down a team after a few boosts... And of course, I'm not even mentioning the Smashers...
2.- You know that a lot of those things that I've mentioned in point 1, also have Taunt (And Butterfree just bypass subs with Bug Buzz)? Which will just make you deal pitiful damage with a non invested Scald (for God's sake, it can't even OHKO Simisear with a freaking STAB supereffective attack, which also means that it can't break another subs like Simipour's and Simisage's) and stop getting subs and protect...
3.- While your Rose sets Toxic Spikes, another Setup Sweeper can just... You know... Setup themselves... Or do you think that you will have 3, 4 or heck even 5 free turns? (One or two turns of Toxic Spikes, one to switch your Wailord that can be skipped if you sack your Rose, one for Aqua Ring and one for a Sub)
4.- You know that Wailord has 157 speed with 4evs? I think that a lot of things can outspeed that much speed and then beat the crap out of Wailord before it manages to get the sub, even if you can get the Aqua Ring on the switch (and if you get the sub, it will get broken when you try to setup Aqua Ring)...
5.- Infiltrator, Bug Buzz, Encore, Trick, Hyper Voice, Knock Off, Status Phazing, Any Status before you got the sub, Hippopotas Sand Stream, and of course Taunt just deals with that "Stallord"... That's a kinda big list for something that has a niche, especially when we consider that Knock Off, Taunt and Phazing are really common in this metagame...
6.- You know that Magic Guard Clefairy can also play mind games and get Calm Minds and do a lot of other shit like spending turns setting SR again and again, Recovering easily the damage at +6 and then PP Stall Wailord attacks? (SR has 32 pp that means 16 uses because of Pressure, Calm Mind also has 32 PP that are 32 uses because the move do not affect the enemy... Those are more than enough to deal with 24 PPs from Scald and even to make it burn a few PPs from Substitute, Aqua Ring, and Protect)
0 SpA Wailord Scald vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 51-60 (14.8 - 17.4%) -- possible 6HKO
0 SpA Wailord Scald vs. +6 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 19-24 (5.5 - 6.9%) -- possibly the worst move ever
7.- I would rather lead with a Scarf Wailord with Water Spout and spam that thing for a while, since at least can outspeed a few things and even has a decent chance for the 2HKO against the simis and a OHKO against uninvested Costa (Smash Costa)... And sadly that's not enough for a niche on PU IMO...

I really like low tiered Pokemon but that Wailor Set is just a Gimmick... Can be annoying and make a few people forfeit on frustration but nothing else...

Those are my two cents... See ya guys!
Edit: sorry... I've got greninja'd on a few things xD

1. Stall is built with passive mons but still is viable (roselia isnt exactly a passivemon tho), and they have ways to stop all those set up sweepers (for example piloswine/misdreavus can beat fraxure). You listing butterfree and the non-existant offensive BU floatzel as threats to stall show that you don't really understand how these teams work
2. Taunt really isn't very common in this metagame. Yes simipour or w/e can run it, but it would much rather have more coverage (like low kick to not be countered by lickilicky). Butterfree is one example, which is not only uncommon (for a reason) but it also is stopped by lickilicky/other special walls, you are not staying in vs a butterfree to try and PP stall when you know they can beat you one on one
3. I don't think you understand how this works
4. Wailord has surprisingly good bulk, and you aren't setting up on raichu or zebstrika, rather passive mons like clefairy, or mons you force out like piloswine. If you aqua ring on the switch (or sub on the status), and if they switch to something that cant do over 75% (you can protect before to heal off hazard or chip damage, then you can sub down and stall.
252+ Atk Life Orb Carracosta Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Wailord: 255-302 (53 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
5. A lot of these are stopped by sub, bug buzz is irrelevant (nothing outside c rank uses it lol), encore is rare (only used by kadabra, which doesn't always use it), infiltrator is limited to one relevant mon, which is the biggest threat to wailord but hates burns, hyper voice persian?, you aren't setting up on faster status users, hippo's sand is rare af and doesn't last long enough to be detrimental, grumpig is the only phaser that goes through the sub and they mostly use offensive sets, and like I said earlier, taunt isn't common (only missy and pig will use it on their standard set and they dislike burns).
6. Im 98% sure calm mind uses 2 PP, and you PP stall till it struggles
7. Simipour z_z


Overall the best ways to prevent this set from 'setting up' is by a few niche moves/mons, or by immediately switching out into a poke that does over 75%, which isn't exactly a natural thing to do vs a wailord even if the opp is running stall. Honestly typing that prior sentence has made be less sure about whether it should be ranked, though these posts have shown me that people don't understand the strat, and need to focus more on the 'over 75%' part of my post.

 

[Rennyjesus]

1. Stall is built with passive mons but still is viable (roselia isnt exactly a passivemon tho), and they have ways to stop all those set up sweepers (for example piloswine/misdreavus can beat fraxure). You listing butterfree and the non-existant offensive BU floatzel as threats to stall show that you don't really understand how these teams work
2. Taunt really isn't very common in this metagame. Yes simipour or w/e can run it, but it would much rather have more coverage (like low kick to not be countered by lickilicky). Butterfree is one example, which is not only uncommon (for a reason) but it also is stopped by lickilicky/other special walls, you are not staying in vs a butterfree to try and PP stall when you know they can beat you one on one
3. I don't think you understand how this works
4. Wailord has surprisingly good bulk, and you aren't setting up on raichu or zebstrika, rather passive mons like clefairy, or mons you force out like piloswine. If you aqua ring on the switch (or sub on the status), and if they switch to something that cant do over 75% (you can protect before to heal off hazard or chip damage, then you can sub down and stall.
252+ Atk Life Orb Carracosta Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Wailord: 255-302 (53 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
5. A lot of these are stopped by sub, bug buzz is irrelevant (nothing outside c rank uses it lol), encore is rare (only used by kadabra, which doesn't always use it), infiltrator is limited to one relevant mon, which is the biggest threat to wailord but hates burns, hyper voice persian?, you aren't setting up on faster status users, hippo's sand is rare af and doesn't last long enough to be detrimental, grumpig is the only phaser that goes through the sub and they mostly use offensive sets, and like I said earlier, taunt isn't common (only missy and pig will use it on their standard set and they dislike burns).
6. Im 98% sure calm mind uses 2 PP, and you PP stall till it struggles
7. Simipour z_z


Overall the best ways to prevent this set from 'setting up' is by a few niche moves/mons, or by immediately switching out into a poke that does over 75%, which isn't exactly a natural thing to do vs a wailord even if the opp is running stall. Honestly typing that prior sentence has made be less sure about whether it should be ranked, though these posts have shown me that people don't understand the strat, and need to focus more on the 'over 75%' part of my post.

You know that I love you Anty, but I've gotta disagree on a few things:
1.- I'm not mentioning Butterfree or BU Floatzel as Stall killers, but as setup sweepers that can deal nice damage after a few boosts, keeping Wailord to get the Aqua Ring that needs to keep getting Subs... Also If you just uses things like Venipede - Whirlipede that are also passive, even shitty things like Butterfree can set up two or three QD boosts and then sweep a nice part of your team unless you have dealt some previous damage and have an offensive Piloswine with Ice Shard (it doesn't get the OHKO).
2.- It has to be my perception then... But I'm seeing Taunt a lot on things like Simis, Fraxure and Missy... Maybe to prevent Costa and Barba from Shell Smashing I dunno...
3.- What I'm just saying is that the whole strategy of getting poison spikes for that Wailord to switch and then setup Aqua Ring, to properly work against a valid portion of the meta gives the opponent A LOT of free turns... SR is an AMAZING move, and Spikes are also cool... But are you going to setup those when doing that will give your opponent enough chance to setup lets say Coil Arbok into +3/+3/+3?
4.- I know that Wailord is bulkier than many people (including myself) could expect but with those free turns, even things like Simipour, Golduck and Huntail (that have a STAB) resisted by Wailord) can get strong enough to deal the needed amount of damage to get through it... However if you go for PP stall it could be better considering that will give the opponent less turns to act... So, I'll give you that one!
5.- I know that a lot of those are stopped by the sub, but then again Wailord is too slow to setup both the sub and Aqua Ring without getting a hit... If you set Aqua Ring on the switch, then the enemy can hit you with status - Knock Off, etc before you get the sub... And if you set the sub on the switch, the sub its gonna get broken when you set up Aqua Ring, just delaying the things but getting screwed nonetheless...
6.- and I'm 99% sure that Pressure just works on moves that affects the Pressure user... Calm Mind and Moonlight/Softboiled aren't directly affecting Wailord (like SR does) so, they should have the same PP usage...
7.- Yup! That's why I've said that isn't even a huge niche to consider it ranked higher than maybe D...

So, my problem with this set is... That you could lead with it to avoid being that much setup bait, but then the opponent can use the rest of the team to avoid being PP stalled... And if you are gonna use it at the end of the match to pp stall a last Pokemon, you might be against a field full of hazards and a setup sweeper already at position to break through your Wailord... That it can work? Yes, why not? But heck... It's kinda like Shedinja... It can be really amazing against some things but absolutely terrible against a lot of the meta!

To conclude my post I've gotta say... That Wailord set can be usable and can even work against a few players/pokes... But you gotta admit that is gimmicky at best! And well if you want a D rank for that, I'm not gonna oppose... Isn't like it's gonna get a huge usage because of that IMO...

See ya! :3

 

[ExplosiveChaos]

I want to repost my thoughts on Wailord after testing it a little.Yes, Wailord is a really horid Pokemon, but I think its niche is enough for D rank.

First of all, Roselia + Wailord isn't horrible. It isn't great, but Roselia can check a lot of things that threaten Wailord's setup (such as Raichu, Zebstrika, or Simisage without Knock Off) and Wailord takes some Ice and Fire-type moves. Even though there are still some threats that the two can't check, it is a six Pokemon, not two. There are still other Pokemon left that you can put on your team for those threats. Also, no one says you have to switch into Wailord after setting T-Spikes, you can always come switch into Wailord later.

Wailord's niche can actually not be horrible on setup Pokemon. Although it is risky, you can pretty much take off one of the setup attacker's coverage just so they can kill you, meaning pretty much neutralizing the setup Pokemon. So pretty much you can sacrifice yourself so that it dies with you, or handicap it so much that it is almost dead. The only problem is that it requires perfect prediction from your part.

Now Wailord against a normal non-setup Pokemon. It can, although a little sadistic and cruel from your part, stall out the enemy's last Pokemon. Setup, PP stall, and then you can make sure you won't lose. I don't think this is a very sportsmanship promoting or fun way to play, but I guess you won. It won't work for a lot of Pokemon, but enough that I would think it should get D rank. If Wailord is not against their last Pokemon, you can probably take down one threat down with Toxic stall (if you have T-Spikes up) which is not too bad of a trade-off. A bad poke is dead to kill an even mediocre Pokemon is a good trade-off.

 

[CyclicCompound]

stuff

I'm not trying to be mean here, but I really don't think you understand the point of the set and how it's supposed to function. Its niche is PP stalling. Not being able to shrug off hits, fish for burns, heal up while something is being Toxic stalled - those are ALL things that other Pokemon do better and the fact that it's frequently the central point of your arguments against it show that you're really not accurately assessing its role.

Yeah, Wailord gives the opponent free turns. Free turns to do what, attack it? And then die because it runs out of moves to do so? Sounds like a win for the Wailord user for me. So what if your opponent sets up? Unless we're talking about extremely specific sets like RestTalk Coil Arbok and pretending nothing else exists, setting up won't mean jack shit when you still can't touch Wailord once it has a Sub up, and you're risking Scald burns on top of all of it. And that's ONLY IF the opponent isn't already being killed by Toxic Spikes anyway! Sure, Wailord requires extremely specialized team support, as really only one specific team can reliably let it carry out what it does, but the point is that if you can restrict yourself to using that team, there is a healthy chance that Wailord will at the very least threaten to stall out certain mons and force the opponent to switch around.

I know that Wailord is bulkier than many people (including myself) could expect but with those free turns, even things like Simipour, Golduck and Huntail (that have a STAB) resisted by Wailord) can get strong enough to deal the needed amount of damage to get through it...

If you need an example, here it is. Who cares if they "can get strong enough to deal the needed amount of damage to get through it?" If Wailord's behind a Substitute, which it will be if you're using turns getting "strong enough," you're not going to have the opportunity to attack it directly. With the PP stalling combined with any status effects, it is literally IMPOSSIBLE for some Pokemon to break through Wailord. Like the ones you mentioned.

You're also mentioning Knock Off and Toxic as reasons why Wailord can't afford to take a hit or set up. I usually hate to draw analogies but the occasion is too ripe: that's like saying not to run some physical setup sweeper because Will-o-Wisp exists, or not to run Roselia or any other NFE because Knock Off exists. Is it a weakness? Certainly. Is it so crippling that it shouldn't even be considered? Certainly not. You can play around it. It's as simple as keeping Wailord away from those kinds of risks until you know you won't need it anymore. Oh no, your opponent switched in something with Knock Off as you used Aqua Ring? Switch the hell out and let your hazards do the work for you. That's the kind of team this functions on.

Also, duh it needs to take a hit to set up. But as long as it can get up a Substitute after it gets hit, IT WILL STILL FULFILL ITS (limited) ROLE. This kind of reasoning on your part is why you clearly don't get what this mon is attempting to do. It is not a wall. It will take a lot of damage. But being unbreakable once set up leaves you with several opportunities to stall, and Pressure and Aqua Ring is what lets it do that where other mons cannot by nearly guaranteeing you will not be the first Pokemon to run out of PP or health, respectively.

Also, you're mentioning Butterfree, of all Pokemon, as something that can set up on it and kill it when no player would ever let that happen, and anything in C- rank is obviously irrelevant enough to disregard for all intents and purposes. If "even shitty things like Butterfree" can set up on and supposedly kill Wailord, don't use the shitty things as an example. That really goes for posting anywhere. It's not helpful at all and just derails the discussion.

Considering your points in the last few posts about Wailord have been so irrelevant to its role and clearly display a lack of understanding as to how it functions, you shouldn't really be posting about it in the future. Again, I'm not trying to be mean or pick on you. But this discussion has become so overblown and ridiculous party because of posts like yours that don't even apply to Wailord's actual role.

As a disclaimer, I really have no stake in where it gets placed. I think D-rank would be fine but honestly I don't care if it were E either, because I will admit stall and especially this build of stall is extremely iffy. But there's no way the discussion will happen if posts don't actually reference Wailord's role.

 

[WhiteDMist]

Seriously guys, this is Wailord. It's good enough for D-rank, no need for such heavy debate on both sides. PP stall is a usable strategy, one that few PU Pokemon can fulfill. Yes, it requires a decent amount of support (it's no Shedinja though) to maximize it's effectiveness. Yes, it takes a couple of turns to set up Substitute and Aqua Ring, and Stall isn't that great right now. Yes, it does have some battles where it simply does not have an opportunity to come in, or where a teammate is simply better suited to being used instead. But it's been demonstrated that Wailord can still successfully PP/Toxic stall out a decent number of Pokemon, and it certainly takes full advantage of Toxic Spikes as well. It's a nom for D rank, not C(+) rank: no need to make such a big fuss over it. You'd be better off nitpicking the B, A, and S ranks instead tbqh.

 

[Magnemite]

Yeah at this point everything that can be said about Wailord has been said. The council and I will decide on it with the next update, but at this point you guys should stick to discussing other things so the thread doesn't get any more derailed about a less than relevant mon.

 

[MZ]

I mean I honestly don't think it performs that well? It's certainly weaker than every other D except maybe Tropius which can probably drop to E. Anyway, kinda was on the fence about this nom but I'd like to see basculin b--> b+ Or at least some discussion since I think it's kinda close (and not Wailord lol). Yes, this is smasher meta and it'll probably be easier to bump it up when the suspect is over, but I picked it up on a whim recently and basculin can distinguish itself from every other water quite nicely. A lot of teams rely on specific checks for barb/costa + something for special waters to deal with water types. The immediate power basculin provides is really really good, and it allows it to beat a team that uses, for example, Spdef clef+scarf buck or politoed+kadabra. Teams are far less prepared for it now, and even straight CB works great as Tangela is much more rare. It can also help check said smashers with its pretty strong jet and has some nice lure options like zen headbutt for rose. It's not totally outclassed by something like physical floatzel either because adaptability and cool coverage options are nice. Plus while its speed isn't great, you beat stout and missy (and specs mime) and have jet to help patch it up. It'd certainly be the weakest of the B+ mons but I think it has enough merit to at least consider moving up.

 

[Rennyjesus]

I'm not trying to be mean here, but I really don't think you understand the point of the set and how it's supposed to function. Its niche is PP stalling. Not being able to shrug off hits, fish for burns, heal up while something is being Toxic stalled - those are ALL things that other Pokemon do better and the fact that it's frequently the central point of your arguments against it show that you're really not accurately assessing its role.

Yeah, Wailord gives the opponent free turns. Free turns to do what, attack it? And then die because it runs out of moves to do so? Sounds like a win for the Wailord user for me. So what if your opponent sets up? Unless we're talking about extremely specific sets like RestTalk Coil Arbok and pretending nothing else exists, setting up won't mean jack shit when you still can't touch Wailord once it has a Sub up, and you're risking Scald burns on top of all of it. And that's ONLY IF the opponent isn't already being killed by Toxic Spikes anyway! Sure, Wailord requires extremely specialized team support, as really only one specific team can reliably let it carry out what it does, but the point is that if you can restrict yourself to using that team, there is a healthy chance that Wailord will at the very least threaten to stall out certain mons and force the opponent to switch around.

If you need an example, here it is. Who cares if they "can get strong enough to deal the needed amount of damage to get through it?" If Wailord's behind a Substitute, which it will be if you're using turns getting "strong enough," you're not going to have the opportunity to attack it directly. With the PP stalling combined with any status effects, it is literally IMPOSSIBLE for some Pokemon to break through Wailord. Like the ones you mentioned.

You're also mentioning Knock Off and Toxic as reasons why Wailord can't afford to take a hit or set up. I usually hate to draw analogies but the occasion is too ripe: that's like saying not to run some physical setup sweeper because Will-o-Wisp exists, or not to run Roselia or any other NFE because Knock Off exists. Is it a weakness? Certainly. Is it so crippling that it shouldn't even be considered? Certainly not. You can play around it. It's as simple as keeping Wailord away from those kinds of risks until you know you won't need it anymore. Oh no, your opponent switched in something with Knock Off as you used Aqua Ring? Switch the hell out and let your hazards do the work for you. That's the kind of team this functions on.

Also, duh it needs to take a hit to set up. But as long as it can get up a Substitute after it gets hit, IT WILL STILL FULFILL ITS (limited) ROLE. This kind of reasoning on your part is why you clearly don't get what this mon is attempting to do. It is not a wall. It will take a lot of damage. But being unbreakable once set up leaves you with several opportunities to stall, and Pressure and Aqua Ring is what lets it do that where other mons cannot by nearly guaranteeing you will not be the first Pokemon to run out of PP or health, respectively.

Also, you're mentioning Butterfree, of all Pokemon, as something that can set up on it and kill it when no player would ever let that happen, and anything in C- rank is obviously irrelevant enough to disregard for all intents and purposes. If "even shitty things like Butterfree" can set up on and supposedly kill Wailord, don't use the shitty things as an example. That really goes for posting anywhere. It's not helpful at all and just derails the discussion.

Considering your points in the last few posts about Wailord have been so irrelevant to its role and clearly display a lack of understanding as to how it functions, you shouldn't really be posting about it in the future. Again, I'm not trying to be mean or pick on you. But this discussion has become so overblown and ridiculous party because of posts like yours that don't even apply to Wailord's actual role.

As a disclaimer, I really have no stake in where it gets placed. I think D-rank would be fine but honestly I don't care if it were E either, because I will admit stall and especially this build of stall is extremely iffy. But there's no way the discussion will happen if posts don't actually reference Wailord's role.

I have perfectly understood what was everyone proposing as a niche for wailord... I know exactly how the set works, and I know that is just boring and underwhelming... However, since you are soooooo wise and I'm that stupid, why don't you provide us with some REAL replays showing us how well Wailord gets behind a sub and destroy PPs like mad?

See ya!
P.D.: at this point, I can't care less about which niche or rank gets Wailord!
P.D.2: I think Basculin WILL get bumped as soon as the suspects are banned xD

 

[cityfolk]

I'd like to nominate Duosion to move up from B+ to A- (probably under clefairy or arbok)

This thing has gotten some hype recently and it's certainly deserved. The Acid Armor + Calm Mind set can set up on so much, just looking through S and A ranks, it can set up on Roselia, Piloswine, Zebstrika, Tangela, Raichu, Probopass, (scarfed) Sawsbuck, Mr. Mime, Clefairy, and Arbok. It can reliably switch in at/around full and proceed to set up on about half of those (Roselia, Piloswine as long as it doesn't get 5 hits on icicle spear, Zebstrika, Raichu, Tangela, Probopass, Sawsbuck if it's scarfed, Mr. Mime without Trick, Clefairy, Arbok. Even if a supposed stop to it, Mightyena, comes in as Duosion uses Acid Armor, Mightyena will be Life Orb stalled and lose. Also, as most people already know, Magic Guard prevents it from being worn down by hazards, burns, and poison/toxic.

What holds Duosion back is being total taunt bait (especially for Misdreavus) and susceptible to Encore (Kadabra, Volbeat). It's incredibly slow so almost any taunt/encore user can pretty much auto-win (if the encore user catches Duosion using calm mind/recover/acid armor). It's also reliant on eviolite for bulk, but considering every knock off user takes a heap from unboosted psyshock (or even +1 if they come in after duosion is on the field), or loses if duosion has already set up an acid armor. It also struggles to switch in and proceed to set up and/or stomach certain important hits unless it's at ~85% or higher.

One other plus to using this is that it's a fantastic shell smash check, being able to stomach any of the shell smasher's hits even when they're at +2 (and can survive Carracosta's +2 stone edge almost all the time)

Hide

+2 252+ Atk Barbaracle Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Duosion: 223-264 (66.7 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Carracosta Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Duosion: 238-281 (71.2 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Carracosta Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Duosion: 296-348 (88.6 - 104.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

This thing is very threatening and a lot of teams don't really have the sheer power to break through this once it's set up, so I believe it deserves a rise to the lower end of A-.