Resource RU Viability Ranking Thread: Abomasnow and Slowking Discussion

[tehy]

I agree that Seismitoad buids are inherently kind of weak to Mega Glalie, due to the fact that both their SR user and their Bulky Water lose to Mega Glalie, but Seismitoad is maybe the third best Rocker in the tier? (Rhyperior can't switch in, but beats it 1v1) And Mega Glalie means you aren't using the best SR mon.

well, my point was rather that there are other, entirely viable SR options which, if you're using them, usually mean you have no need for Mlix. that means you can run mega glalie.

But aside from the competition from Mega Steelix, it also has a wide range of viable counters on all team styles, the rise in Delphox hurts it, Durant (which I've heard was proven to be S rank) switches in on it (doesn't like taking more than one EQ though), SpD mola is now the dominant Mola and that doesn't even mind Freeze Dry too much, (tho it doesn't want to switch in). I just really think Mega Lix and Moth are so much better than everything else that it would be misleading to put them in the same rank as stuff like M Glalie. Like sure we could put M Glalie, Meloetta, Scrafty, Tyrantrum, Durant, and I'd argue Mola is better than at least 3 of those into S rank with Moth and Mega Lix, but then we have 8 Pokemon in S rank, when the reality is there is a huge gap after the top 2, and maybe one of the others is close, but they just aren't S rank.
There is no conspiracy here. Spirit and I and anyone else in the irc chat will discuss noms as they come up in the thread, and we usually come to a conclusion, based on your guys's post as well as our own thoughts (and very few nominations have unanimous support). Nothing is stopping you guys from coming on IRC and discussing them as well as I'd say 80% of the time we discuss in #rarelyused itself. Perhaps we could do a better job responding to some of the nominations in the thread, but we do at least try to give reasoning or let other people's posts speak for us if we don't. Aside from that there are 0 things stopping you from saying, "Hey, I oppose M glalie drop because xyz". Nothing on this list is permanent. Perhaps you and "a few other people" can appreciate the work we actually put into this thread behind the scenes, cause it takes a lot, and I'm pretty glad that Spirit is willing to put so much effort into running this, as it tends to be a pretty thankless job -_-.

i don't think there's a conspiracy, just bad handling / policy. personally, what stops me from coming IRC is a lack of energy to keep reloading as I disconnect.

SpD Mola takes a lot from freeze dry on the switch-in though, and delphox takes plenty from a return + rocks or even just an EQ as it comes in.

i think m-lix and moth are pretty excellent, but i would at least put Durant on the same level, and all the other mons mentioned outside of mola i'd put very high as well.

additionally, King Talents has quite the solid point about Durant. kingler dissented, as did arikado, but i, 49, and punchshroom agreed. 4 vs 2 and 2 of them real niggas as well...why hasn't this been further addressed? at the very least it should be a discussion point.[/quote][/quote]

 

[Ajna]

Idk, I actually kind of agree with Sweep about Scrafty, the fact is that it is incredibly weak unboosted, and while it is pretty threatening after a boost, it is still quite easy to fit something to deal with it after a boost on your team. The fact that Scrafty doesn't KO 128/0 Tangrowth with +1 LO HJK and is KOed in return by LO Leaf Storm (or Focus Blast, but I don't like missing x_x) is pretty sad. And defensive and balance teams are more than capable of fitting defensive answers to Scrafty on them, as Aroma, Granbull, Togetic, Golbat, and Gurdurr can easily fit on any team from Stall (okay not gurdurr) to Bulky Offense (and there is even more niche stuff like Poliwrath). And the solution to Scrafty's problem's isn't really slapping a resist berry on it, as without LO it loses to even more Pokemon due to its weakness at +1. Every Relevant Scarfer OHKOes Scrafty from full, with the exception of Tyrantrum which does a minimum of 86% with Super Power, and on top of that there is stuff like Fletchling or Colbur Berry Dazzling Gleam Psychics (I like Mesprit for this) that you can tech specifically to defeat Scrafty. Because as customizable as Scrafty is, its initial lack of power just makes it easy to customize a Pokemon that shouldn't counter it, in order to specifically do so. I just think that people are so focused on needing to run Fairies to beat this (which isn't actually true) and the fact that it can sometimes beat fairies (emphasis on sometimes) that they completely over estimate how much

Agree w/ moth to S though.


First off, because Mega Steelix is the best Pokemon in the tier and Durant: is not. Secondly,

Moving on, when was it proven to be an S rank mon? You sticking your fingers in your ears and going, "LALALALA NO COUNTERS LALALA" doesn't prove that Durant is an S rank Pokemon at all, especially since a lot of your argument is predicated on Durant being Choice Scarf Lum LO Band, Hone Claws Dual STAB Super Power BP Sub Crunch Thunder Fang. Don't get me wrong Durant is an excellent mon, but it is not without its flaws. The choiced sets, which are both very solid, have the flaw of having to lock into moves that are pretty terribly individually, Iron Head, its better STAB, just has so many resists, and while its coverage moves such as Crunch and Superpower provide good coverage on non-choiced sets, but they are all individually bad moves to lock into (idk if I'm getting across what I'm trying too but x_x). Hone-Claws is also a good set, but due to poor Special Bulk, it has a pretty hard time setting up, and while its deadly at +1, its not like say, Venomoth where it also is hard to revenge kill at +1, as any offensive (or balance team) without something over base 109 speed is bad and it isn't even due to the existence of Durant. On top of this, common Glue mons just tend to beat Durant, Scarf Emboar is probably the second most common glue mon (after mega Lix) and Scarf Tyrantrum is also a common glue mon on offense. I could see Durant in A+ and was thinking about nomming it for that in my last post, but its not on par with Mega Lix or Venomoth, which I think are the clear S rank right now.


Still pretty neutral about this tbh, I'm not opposed, but I lean towards keeping it A+, while, like the other noms, Meloetta is an incredibly diverse Pokemon, it both suffers from and benefits from the trend of "need something to do 900000 things for my team? I'll add Mega Lix". Its best set, at least imo, is Sub CM, but this is just kind of boned by the presence of Mega Steelix which is on so many teams, however, Specs can work to lure this (and some other things) in with Focus Blast which does help. The base 90 speed, and Psychic typing does hurt, as it is pursuit bait, even more so than Delphox, as Delphox at least outspeed (and 2hkoes) Houndoom and scares Sneasel with the prospect of Scarf Fire Blast, Meloetta does neither of these things, making it "easy" to pursuit trap (as easy as that ever is). Not necessarily opposed tho, as it is incredible, I just think some parts of the meta kinda sit poorly for it x_x.

Also as another nom I think Tyrantrum could drop to A+ (yes I'm proposing a Mega Steelix Venomoth only S rank), I can elaborate more later as to why I think this should happen, but its like 1 AM and I'm tired. So if others want to comment on this, that would be pretty cool.


I agree that Seismitoad buids are inherently kind of weak to Mega Glalie, due to the fact that both their SR user and their Bulky Water lose to Mega Glalie, but Seismitoad is maybe the third best Rocker in the tier? (Rhyperior can't switch in, but beats it 1v1) And Mega Glalie means you aren't using the best SR mon. But aside from the competition from Mega Steelix, it also has a wide range of viable counters on all team styles, the rise in Delphox hurts it, Durant (which I've heard was proven to be S rank) switches in on it (doesn't like taking more than one EQ though), SpD mola is now the dominant Mola and that doesn't even mind Freeze Dry too much, (tho it doesn't want to switch in). I just really think Mega Lix and Moth are so much better than everything else that it would be misleading to put them in the same rank as stuff like M Glalie. Like sure we could put M Glalie, Meloetta, Scrafty, Tyrantrum, Durant, and I'd argue Mola is better than at least 3 of those into S rank with Moth and Mega Lix, but then we have 8 Pokemon in S rank, when the reality is there is a huge gap after the top 2, and maybe one of the others is close, but they just aren't S rank.
There is no conspiracy here. Spirit and I and anyone else in the irc chat will discuss noms as they come up in the thread, and we usually come to a conclusion, based on your guys's post as well as our own thoughts (and very few nominations have unanimous support). Nothing is stopping you guys from coming on IRC and discussing them as well as I'd say 80% of the time we discuss in #rarelyused itself. Perhaps we could do a better job responding to some of the nominations in the thread, but we do at least try to give reasoning or let other people's posts speak for us if we don't. Aside from that there are 0 things stopping you from saying, "Hey, I oppose M glalie drop because xyz". Nothing on this list is permanent. Perhaps you and "a few other people" can appreciate the work we actually put into this thread behind the scenes, cause it takes a lot, and I'm pretty glad that Spirit is willing to put so much effort into running this, as it tends to be a pretty thankless job -_-.


Sam

I'm not gonna get into any of the other stuff haha, but I definitely do see why you and Sweep feel like Scrafty is underwhelming. I just find that Scrafty really makes building a lot harder for more passive balance teams, that's one of the main reasons I felt like it should be S. After talking with other players about it, reading your post, and then re-reading Sweep's post, I can see why Scrafty should be A+ rank.

Regarding Meloetta, I feel like it is a great mon in the tier, but not S rank worthy for 2 main reasons. One of them being 4mss on almost every single set. Specs/scarf sets want to run psychic, hyper voice, shadow ball, focus blast, u turn, and trick. It depends on if you want to cripple a stall mon, not get trapped as easily, or if you want to hit mega lix/rhyperior harder. Same goes for the sub cm sets, you're forced to choose between shadow ball, psychic, focus blast, hyper voice, and maybe even hp fire for escav(not very great but w/e) but you only have 2 slots. Same goes for Melo-P and so on, but you get the point. Add that Mel is easily trapped onto her 4mss and Meloetta doesn't seem as threatening as she sometimes looks on paper. I feel like the same goes for Durant, you can't always have the exact set that you need in order to win a specific match.

Edit: Mel also wants Dazzling Gleam on specs sets

So Scrafty to A+
Durant stays A(maybe A+ idk)
Meloetta stays A+

 

[Kingler]

Just saying that I dont find 4MSS to be a huge issue with meloetta as subcm can bop mega steelix easily with focus blast and although it gets walled by spiritomb, that's really not v common lol. Idk it actually feels like you can choose what counters you since with any four moves it's still so effective that spex will get one or two hits in to demolish offensive teams and its other sets can also put in work similarly. Meloetta is pretty damn awesome but it's just not as defining as Venomoth and Mega Steelix (tyrantrum?), so i do agree with the conclusion presented here.

 

[Natural Talent]

Even 49 agreed with me. After everyone saw 49's post and i explained my point everyone seemed to not talk. Steelix is not the best mon in the tier and probably will never be. DURANT is way above steelix in viability and is on near to par with Venomoth.

Durant can beat Steelix 1v1, "the best mon" set up bait to durant, how cool is that.

Idk, I actually kind of agree with Sweep about Scrafty, the fact is that it is incredibly weak unboosted, and while it is pretty threatening after a boost, it is still quite

Moving on, when was it proven to be an S rank mon? You sticking your fingers in your ears and going, "LALALALA NO COUNTERS LALALA" doesn't prove that Durant is an S rank Pokemon at all,

lol. Why has nobody stated any counters on defending why it shouldn't be S? Name me a counter that isn't Quagsire.

What ever gave you the idea that Steelix was the best mon in the tier?
I just don't believe steelix is an S rank mon. With the rise of all the fighting and fire types it just seems a bit misplaced

Since you don't believe it's S rank worthy would you care to give me an explanation on why not?

So Scrafty to A+

Scrafty is the scariest thing ever. in sweeps post all i see is him saying tangrowth kills it . Meaning tangrowth is 1 of it's checks, tangrowth won't even be on every team. Aromatisse can get worn down easily if it comes in on a knock off. Also, shed skin beats qwilfish with ease.
Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns").

Scrafty has a handful of checks, a handful doesn't account for the whole metagame or even the significant portion left. It creates a lot of free turns when there check is aromatisse because with hazards it forces it to wish at points.

 

[Ajna]

That's what I was trying to say. You get to choose what beats you, and what you beat, but there are often games where if you were carrying focus blast over say shadow ball, you would be able to take out the opponents mega lix, clearing the way for a Venomoth sweep. It also obviously works the other way if the opponent has an Escavalier, if you were running hp fire instead of focus blast, you could clear the way for a veno sweep. In no way am I saying that Melo isn't a great mon, I'm just saying that I don't think it's s rank due to to this.

 

[Sweep]

Agreed strongly that Venomoth is S worthy for the reasons Ajna mentioned, it's really hard to prepare for right now. Tinted Lens allows it to wear down Sleep Talk users like Steelix and some Scarfers quite easily if they switch directly into a Bug Buzz, and 90 is a really solid speed tier for outrunning threats like Scarf Medicham and Braviary after a Quiver Dance. It's frail, but its typing gives it some Pokemon to set up on (Fairies like Aromatisse and Mega Audino, as well as the admittedly bad Hitmontop for example) and Tinted Lens + Sleep Powder + 90 base Speed is really hard to deal with.

 

[Lord Death Man]

Why did Jellicent drop so drastically, so suddenly? I agree that it needed to drop (into A, not A-), but there was next to no discussion (a post by BrandonBeast and a post by -kal-, the former being a one-liner, both made two weeks ago) prior to two posts in a row at a particularly inactive time. It's a little frustrating and confusing for such a drastic change to be made with minimal discussion. What does Alomomola offer in match ups versus Balance and Stall that make it such a strong competitor against Jellicent that it's viability plummeted? Why is Roselia - not even a particularly favorable match up in Roselia's favor, since it doesn't 2hko with Giga Drain and really doesn't like being worn down by a burn + inability to access Rest/Synthesis, much less a widely seen mon even on full stall - worth mentioning in it's match up versus stall?

 

[Ping_Pong_Along]

Wow, there's a lot to talk about here. I'm on my phone, so I can't be quite as thorough as I'd like (takes too long).

Melo right now feels pretty A+ to me at the moment. While it's very versatile, it's not too difficult to check or counter. Other than the odd Meloetta-p, Moth, Sneasel, and Durant are all common offensive checks. You've also got Mega Steelix and Spiritomb, who can counter many sets. Drapion is also a rather underrated counter, with Knock Off and Toxic Spikes. All of this is not even mentioning scarf users. So yeah, I think A+ makes the most sense, though I don't it would be too big a stretch for it to be S.

I am all in favor of Venomoth for S rank. This thing is incredibly difficult to deal on defensive teams and puts a heavy strain in team building. It also has an excellent selection of coverage moves. Between Sludge Bomb, Giga Drain, Psychic, and HP Fire, it can take on any one of its counters with relative ease, though this is often better left to teammates. The fact that we're going back to Registeel and Golbat, neither of which have been relevant since Yanmeta, to me speaks of the unhealthy influence Venomoth has had on the tier. Sleep Powder makes these counters rather more unreliable than they were against Yanmega too. Escavalier lacks recovery and it's easily lured in or worn down without adding much to support the team other than as a Venomoth check.

As for Durant, I can see keeping it out of S, but this thing should have definitely gone up to A+, in my opinion. It has more switch in opportunities than I think people give it credit for, with its solid defense stat. While I don't quite agree with the "no counters" idea, I think they are somewhat rare and not entirely solid.

 

[phantom]

Durant is not S rank at all and the arguments for it are extremely exaggerated / terrible.

Let's look at the Hone Claws set. Durant needs all three of its standard attacks (Iron Head / X-Scissor / Superpower) to function at its best. The problem with saving "but Qwilfish and Jellicent are not checks because of Thunder Fang!!!" is that a when making an assertion like this, many fail to understand that by dropping one of Durant's other attacks in favor of the significantly less optimal Thunder Fang, Durant still has to pay the price of dropping a bit of its effectiveness as a result. For instance, dropping X-Scissor makes Tangrowth, Twave Uxie, and even certain Bronzong decent checks to Durant itself in exchange for being able to cut through Qwilfish / Alomomola. Durant can't just run Thunder Fang over one of its standard moves and not lose a bit of effectiveness as a result. It will always have something that can hard / wall check it. Even outside of the defensive spectrum of handling Durant's attacks, Durant can really only set up on very specific attacks (think Leaf Storms) or by forcing a switch. It's an incredibly frail Pokemon which only offers defensive synergy in the form of checking Mega Glalie on offense. Second, let's say you ended up getting that Hone Claws boost, you're still forcing a one-for-one considering practically any Choice Scarf user can revenge the thing, so in exchange for getting one kill, you're either being forced out and thus lose a ton of momentum or Durant is going down the following turn.

The problems for this set boil down to:

-Difficulty setting up
-Difficulty keeping a sweep
-Always having a handful of solid defensive responses no matter what it does

This is not S rank because it requires way too much support and has a number of significant flaws.

Let's look at the Choice Scarf set.

Because Durant is being nominated for S rank, it's fair to compare it to another S rank Choice Scarf user, Tyrantrum. Unlike Tyrantrum, Durant does not have an extremely spammable STAB, its STABs also have poor coverage in comparison and in general. The raw power of Tyrantrum's Head Smash allows it to pose as a threat to even defensive cores / Pokemon, something that Durant cannot do. I'm not saying that a Choice Scarf user should be able to put in work vs defensive teams, but what makes Tyrantrum such a good Choice Scarf user, and what sets it apart from the others, is that it can do just that simply with the threat of a single attack. This is the key thing that distinguishes Tyrantrum from the other Choice Scarf users in RU and what helped get it into S rank in the first place. In comparison to even Choice Scarf Delphox which can cripple defensive threats with Switcheroo, Scarf Durant is practically useless vs bulky water + Steel core which you will find on practically any balance / stall. An S rank threat should never be useless or a liability.

Now let's talk about the other glaring flaw with Choice Scarf Durant, that being, having to rely on a 80% accurate moves to revenge kill certain Pokemon. You should never be playing against Durant hoping it will miss, just like you wouldn't with Moltres in the past or Tyrantrum now. That's a given. However, unlike the previous two Pokemon and even other Choice Scarf users now such as Delphox, Durant does not have an accurate coverage move / STAB to fall back on. Not having something accurate to fall back on is a pretty big hit on its viability. Whenever I'm relying on Durant to revenge kill Venomoth / Scrafty, I have to cross my fingers every time and hope that it doesn't miss because if it does, I lose. I don't have to get into that same guessing game when I'm using something like Choice Scarf Delphox. With a Pokemon like that, it can revenge kill various set up sweepers with accurate moves that gives me a huge sense of security. Even with Tyrantrum and Moltres, while true they had to rely on inaccurate attacks every now and then, they had/have accurate STABs/moves to fall back on when needed. You will come across a point where Choice Scarf Durant will miss and it will cost you the game, and a lot of the time, you had no other choice but to go for the inaccurate attacks. Other S rank Choice Scarf users now and then don't have those flaws.

In short, Choice Scarf Durant:

-Will not put in work vs your bog standard balance / stall core in anyway, no Trick/Switcheroo, lack of raw power/STAB, nothing will help it put in the work, making it a liability in those matchups.
-Choice Scarf Durant can be unreliable as a result of having to rely on Hustle to be a proficient Choice Scarf user

Please don't argue saying you don't have to use Hustle on Choice Scarf because you do. Its STAB combo and move BP is already unimpressive as is, but without the Hustle boost, it's unbelievably pathetic in regards to its damage output.

This is not S rank.

The other sets, All-out Attacker / SubPass, I won't get into, but I don't think I need to explain why those sets are not S rank worthy, especially due to the fact that those two sets weren't even being acknowledged to move Durant up by those who nominated it / pushed for it to be S rank in the first place.

additionally, King Talents has quite the solid point about Durant. kingler dissented, as did arikado, but i, 49, and punchshroom agreed. 4 vs 2 and 2 of them real niggas as well...why hasn't this been further addressed? at the very least it should be a discussion point.

Just because there's a vocal minority doesn't necessarily mean a change will happen. If you want to continue to discuss Durant, but actually bring up new points instead of regurgitating the same ones that haven't convinced anyone aside from those who already agree with you, then go ahead. "Discussion points" are just meant to get some posts going in this thread, they aren't the be all end all of what should and shouldn't be talked about. This is a subjective reference list that involves community input with myself, llamas, and molk making updates to it from time to time based on what we see fit, "policy" complaints about a thread like this is some of the most frivolous bitching I've ever seen, and anymore posts about it will be deleted and infracted.


Anyway, I'll get on irc later today / this weekend and talk to llamas and other people and reorganize this thread and address some of the concerns brought up to get a more accurate and organized list that the community will be satisfied with. So stay tuned!

 

[atomicllamas]

Why did Jellicent drop so drastically, so suddenly? I agree that it needed to drop (into A, not A-), but there was next to no discussion (a post by BrandonBeast and a post by -kal-, the former being a one-liner, both made two weeks ago) prior to two posts in a row at a particularly inactive time. It's a little frustrating and confusing for such a drastic change to be made with minimal discussion. What does Alomomola offer in match ups versus Balance and Stall that make it such a strong competitor against Jellicent that it's viability plummeted? Why is Roselia - not even a particularly favorable match up in Roselia's favor, since it doesn't 2hko with Giga Drain and really doesn't like being worn down by a burn + inability to access Rest/Synthesis, much less a widely seen mon even on full stall - worth mentioning in it's match up versus stall?

I posted about it 2 days ago :o (my first post on page 14, would quote but on my phone x_x). Mola offers a much better match up against offensive balance teams, as it actually beats Fire-types, and even a lot of fighting types more cleanly. It's also a lot better against any offensive team. Jellicent is superior against stall, cause taunt, but there are a lot of other things I can use that make stall hard to use, and a lot of those like wish support. The Roselia match up seems like a stale mate, but gigs drain recovers all lost HP partially thanks to the fact you have to alternate Taunt and Recover, or give up spikes. Rose can even fish for sludge bomb poison, allowing it to wear down jelli even more quickly. Jelli is just generally inferior to mola rn in most cases, which is why it's been nommed for A- (and moved there).

 

[Hot N Cold]

Sneasel rank its too high, 55/55/75 defensive stats + 10% recoil per turn because Life Orb plus Stealth Rock weakness doesnt help. I feel its kinda of 'kill or die' at that point. I guess have a nice niche as faster pursuit in the tier without a Choice Scarf which is nice for Delphox and Sigilyph (pursuit without switch out doesnt kill them even after Stealth Rock damage, and you get HKO back by these psychic types). I mean, if you decides using Pursuit on Sneasel which is prolly his best niche then you're losing against very important offensive mons (Houndoom, Glalie-Mega, Steelix-Mega or Emboar) in case you dont pick Low Kick or against faster mons in case you're not using Ice Shard (Jolteon, Dugtrio, Scarf Braviary, Scarf Flygon, Scarf/RP/DD Tyrantrum, Scarf Rotom-C, cheap damage against Hitmonlee or Fletchinder).

Theres also some more stuff which can beat Sneasel 1vs1 in most scenarios than Sneasel does as Gurdurr, Colburr Berry Mesprit/Meloetta, Mega-Camerupt, Escavalier, Drapion, Seismitoad, Tangrowth, Clawitzer, etc. Not mention any decent Stall or Balance team hard wall Sneasel. And still against offensive teams have lot of problems because priorities, scarfs or faster mons, mons which beats him in 1 vs 1 (already mentioned before) and also hard time to switch into him.

A- Rank.

 

[Punchshroom]

Sneasel rank its too high, 55/55/75 defensive stats + 10% recoil per turn because Life Orb plus Stealth Rock weakness doesnt help. I feel its kinda of 'kill or die' at that point. I guess have a nice niche as faster pursuit in the tier without a Choice Scarf which is nice for Delphox and Sigilyph (pursuit without switch out doesnt kill them even after Stealth Rock damage, and you get HKO back by these psychic types). I mean, if you decides using Pursuit on Sneasel which is prolly his best niche then you're losing against very important offensive mons (Houndoom, Glalie-Mega, Steelix-Mega or Emboar) in case you dont pick Low Kick or against faster mons in case you're not using Ice Shard (Jolteon, Dugtrio, Scarf Braviary, Scarf Flygon, Scarf/RP/DD Tyrantrum, Scarf Rotom-C, cheap damage against Hitmonlee or Fletchinder).

Theres also some more stuff which can beat Sneasel 1vs1 in most scenarios than Sneasel does as Gurdurr, Colburr Berry Mesprit/Meloetta, Mega-Camerupt, Escavalier, Drapion, Seismitoad, Tangrowth, Clawitzer, etc. Not mention any decent Stall or Balance team hard wall Sneasel. And still against offensive teams have lot of problems because priorities, scarfs or faster mons, mons which beats him in 1 vs 1 (already mentioned before) and also hard time to switch into him.

A- Rank.

Yeah Sneasel is a "kill or die" kind of Pokemon but its Speed and STABs allow it to threaten a disgusting amount of mons, practically threatening nearly every single offensive mon in the tier with its coverage. I mean a good amount of the mons you suggested that beat Sneasel 1v1 also happen to take on Mega Glalie as well, and we're not about to drop that to A minus now are we?

Sneasel's killing power might be more target specific than most, but it threatens an incredibly wide range of mons and its power is still very respectable in its own right, and of course its Speed tier is utterly amazing. I would keep Sneasel in A+ but if you're going to drop it at least no further down than A; I have not felt that it has waned in effectiveness to warrant a significant drop.

 

[Kingler]

To be fair Mega glalie does a LOT more to these mons -- I think it 2HKOes like all of them bar like Esca and Clawitzer (which i dont think is great anyways) and i dont even think sneasel and mega glalie are very comparable. The thing is, metagames shift. People realized how good sneasel is -> people started preparing for it -> it's less effective in the meta now. That's how a metagame/tier evolves and that's part of why metagames like ADV OU can re-innovate themselves. I mean A seems fair enough bc sneasel does threaten a lot of offensive mons and has a great speed tier but isnt doing much against like mola balance besides knock off/pursuit (which is a 50/50 due to how frail sneasel in unless in on like scarf fox psychic move). there's also durant/emboar/mega steelix/scrafty 1v1 that give it problems, and an SR weak doesnt help. I kinda agree that Sneasel has waned from when it was super good but A- might be a bit too little, A seems completely fair though..

 

[lighthouses]

Uh, guys, i don't always post here but can we drop mega-banette a rank or two?
That thing is literally useless and extremely difficult to build around, while it can nab at least a kill if you play it right it just doesn't check ANYTHING, it's like you're building with 5 mons.
On another hand can we raise poliwrath's rank a little bit?
I think it provides a lot of deffensive utility at the moment, enough to at least warrant it a place on the B ranks, maybe B+ even.
Sorry i can't go too deeply into this since i'm on my phone

 

[Hot N Cold]

Well, Glalie-Mega is considerably stronger than LO Sneasel.

252 Atk Refrigerate Mega Glalie Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ditto: 366-432 (154.4 - 182.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

-----

252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ditto: 298-351 (125.7 - 148.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ditto: 261-308 (110.1 - 129.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Glalie-Mega its the best Spiker in the tier and one of a few viable users in the tier, so thats kinda huge; the only one which can win against every hazard remover in 1 vs 1 (regular STAB against defog users, boom for bulky spinners and even ice shard for defog scarf flygon).

Explosion its something that makes Glalie-Mega more scary than Sneasel b/c pretty much kills everything, even mons which are supposed to be a good answer (except a few mons as Def Jellicent, Alomomola, Registeel and Protect Bronzong vs certain sets, Alomomola and Jellicent loses to Freeze-Dry + Explosion and Registeel loses to Earthquake + Explosion after a prior damage). You dont wanna trade your Steelix-Mega against opposite Glalie-Mega BOOM in case your opponent runs Venomoth but Steelix-Mega was supposed to be your Glalie-Mega counter. The thing is playing against Glalie you need to adapt more to him during playing your game than you need to do playing against Sneasel.

 

[Wandering Wobbuffet]

Uh, guys, i don't always post here but can we drop mega-banette a rank or two?
That thing is literally useless and extremely difficult to build around, while it can nab at least a kill if you play it right it just doesn't check ANYTHING, it's like you're building with 5 mons.

This has already been discussed: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...l-dragon-edition.3538036/page-14#post-6381916

 

[Guidorealmsmc]

Uh, guys, i don't always post here but can we drop mega-banette a rank or two?
That thing is literally useless and extremely difficult to build around, while it can nab at least a kill if you play it right it just doesn't check ANYTHING, it's like you're building with 5 mons.

I disagree with this post not only because most of what is said applies to other mons higher then it. Saying mega banette is "literally useless" is a exaggeration because it's actually useful, because a well played mega banette is capable of getting more then one ko in a match and it also can run taunt . Also mega banette isn't something that is built around, it's more of a glue mon for your team like every other mega. Mega banette is fine where it is and I would never rank it below mega audino.

 

[lighthouses]

Mega audino is 1000x times more useful, also i don't think you understand what glues are at all
Just to further up my point a little bit, if mega banette is something that isn't built around, but rather, something that provides support, can someone explain to me on what teambuilding scenario you would ever think to yourself: "o mega banette fits here really well", or "i need mega banette on this slot" you just don't, ever

 

[MrAldo]

I sincerely dont believe mega banette should drop from B-. In fact I dont believe mega banette is 1000x more useful given they both provides different type of support.

Mega banette isnt a glue mon at all, whoever said that is mixing terms. It is an offensive support pokemon that fits on spikestacking teams given it has a pretty nice support movepool and with prankster it can make good use of that movepool. But thats telling the obvious, mega banette thanks to prankster can differentiate itself from the distinctive lack of ghosts (we have only jellicent and spiritomb and then cofag which I believe is worse than mega banette) but priority taunt is amazing to have, prevents defog to protect your hazards and priority status with will-o-wisp or thunder wave is amazing in an offensive metagame like this. Lack of a powerful STAB and notorious 4mss wanting to run a lot of moves at the same time doesnt help it but given the support it provides I think it should stay in B-.

Mega Audino has its own good amount of problems while being a fairy that cant handle fighting types, which blows. Healing wish support is amazing not gonna lie, I know isnt being nommed for everything but it isnt x1000 times better. Plus both suffer from the "why would use this over mega glalie/camel/steelix syndrome" anyways :V

Poliwrath to B-, or C+: I remember when 49 nommed this to get ranked and from there I got interested in it. The good array of resistances it provides are amazing in this metagame. Resistances like bug, dark, steel, fire and a water immunity are invaluable right now. The physically defensive rest talk set is a classic that has been around for a while and always being effective to do what it must do, checking physical threats like durant is fantastic on its own. Imo it should rise for the merits of specs and the special tank set, a PU creation, which provides a great middle ground of great bulk and decent offensive presence with special fighting priority in vacuum wave which is fantastic to have. Jellicent usage decreasing really helps it case as well.

Togetic shouldnt drop, not to sold in moving it to A-: Cute little thing is pretty nice tbh, really amazing support movepool. Nasty pass is amazing with nice recipients and it can always just dry pass to go away from an unfavorable matchup. Thanks to its typing, even when its eviolite gets knocked off, it can still fare well against most fighting types bar medicham thanks to its great typing. Moves like encore and thunder wave are other amazing options on it so isnt a huge setup bait for things like psychics and venomoth. The scrafty argument can be said about pretty much anything that beats scrafty but can lose to it thanks to a resist berry of sort, and this shouldnt be your only general fighting check :V countering flygon is a great trait on its own to be honest, and it far more useful than most in B. Togetic to stay on B+.

Wait I though durant was A+ and not A :o!! It should be A+ given how threatening it is to be honest. LO sets are a pain to deal with and hits like everything hard for good damage, hone claws doesnt set up on much so I dont like it. It is in no way an S rank but it should rise to A+ imo.

Venomoth is a monster, so difficult to deal with consistently oml. S rank this pls.

 

[col49]

homies been told 'bout wrath (i still think it is quite good rn, though i dislike the special tank set for its inability to make significant offensive returns off its free turns, and it not much more defensively for doing so

edit: by special tank, i mean specs set w/lefties > specs. specs itself is still usable)

moreover, since i let it slip with a few other people, i might as well drop this nom-ish tidbit for discussion here:

magmortar has a distinguishable niche in the tier at this time. while in perspective kept exclusive to offensive value, magmortar does not hold enough merit to be utilized over pokemon such as houndoom and delphox (who have a variety of highly significant tools at their disposal to be more diverse and threatening in that regard), it stands at a rather noteworthy crossroads of offensive and defensive utility that makes it pretty dang cool atm. beyond the obvious plusses to be had of being a strong-ish, specially-based fire (high-bp attacks, hard to switch into, w.e), its reasonable special bulk, vanilla fire typing, and access to vital spirit make it a very efficient switch-in (and perhaps the single best offensive one) to both venomoth and tangrowth, in addition to serving as a reasonable check to other fires, sans camel. mind you, it does require av to perform this role, and obviously there are drawbacks to the use of this pokemon (opportunity cost of running this > stronger fires, it isn't fast or able to splurge for priority), but i have found it very effectively hybridizes roles in such a way that has a very noteworthy niche in the tier. i will post the set that i use below for reference, in addition to alternatives that you can tinker with based on individual necessity, so that you can try it out for yourselves. you'll be doing me a favour here, as i have mentioned how poor i am at putting ranks on things, so do offer input if possible haha.

set

Magmortar @ Assault Vest
Ability: Vital Spirit
EVs: 112 HP / 160 SpA / 4 SpD / 232 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Fire Blast
- Thunderbolt
- Focus Blast
- Earthquake

speed puts it over base 80's, which is fairly significant if only for keeping glalie honest pre-evo. the bulk investment ensures specs tangrowth cannot 2hko with focus blast from full, in addition to putting houndoom's +2 lo dark pulse at only around a 25% chance to ohko after sr. depending on the defensive backbone your team provides, however, you can opt for a + spa nature in order to play out mag's prowess as a strong fire-type, which isn't entirely unreasonable.

fire blast and tbolt should be rather obvious / compulsory here, with focus blast keeping tyrantrum and rhyperior honest, as well as keeping offensive flygon a bit more honest and pushing through 'mons like audino a bit more realistically. eq is perhaps the least valuable, only targeting cm delphox, m-camel, doomer [accurately], and the rare lanturn, but with phox being a fairly paramount target here, i consider it to be the best option in the final slot. if you have this covered to some capacity, then you can certainly opt for something like hp grass (/ice, if you really need to catch defensive gonner), but i would not advocate it unless you're simply running a fight-heavy offense that simultaneously does not have phox issues.

 

[phantom]

I updated the VR thread. There are quite a lot of changes and due to how the thread was changed, and it would be difficult/confusing to list them all. So, I'll leave you all with this little footnote that's also in the OP.

We're going to try something different:

There are only two sub-ranks now as opposed to three in order to reduce the subjectivity of the VR thread and to have the discussions focus more so on a Pokemon's effectiveness in the metagame and how it may have changed and take less focus off of ranking semantics. If this change doesn't improve the quality of the thread or make things more organized, then the three sub-rank system will be brought back.

In addition to the above, the Pokemon in the plus ranks (+) fit the definition of whichever rank they're currently in, but fit more so with the Pokemon in the rank above and are generally more dangerous/effective than the ones ranked directly below. In contrast, the Pokemon that are given a simple vanilla rank (A, B, C, etc) are Pokemon that also fit the definition of the current rank they're in, but coincide more with the Pokemon in the rank below or are a cut below the Pokemon in the plus (+) ranks.

As a note, you're more than free to object to something moving up or down just so long as your reasoning is sound. Remember: none of these rankings are permanent. As a final note, please don't post useless one liners such as "why did this Pokemon go up or down". If you don't agree with why something is placed where it is, then nominate it to move up or down. Posts such as the one I described just derail the thread and take away from the discussion.

 

[citro]

M-Banette is a shitty defog stopper and yes I have used it. It's mainly due to it needing to actually Mega evolve before its ability comes into use so you have to choose between leading with it and getting the mega off straight away, or literally switching it in after a member has died because it doesn't come in on ANYTHING (defensive defog Flygon 2hkos ffs). However if you're forced to lead with it it means you can't start off by setting up hazards, whether that's SR or Spikes which means spike stacking teams are compromising their main strategy for a large portion of the game. This is especially bad if your team has an Accelgor or lead Qwil which only really work turn 1. Basically you have to choose between having a Mega'd Banette or any hazards on the field.

 

[Kableye]

Honestly, I prefer the old system for the viability thread but I'm interested in how this will work out.

Anyway I personally think Bronzong is too high. It certainly has a notable niche in being one of the few ground immune stealth rocker in RU, meaning it has a better match up vs a lot of defoggers (Flygon) but otherwise its extremely passive. Most of the stuff its supposed to wall it doesn't exactly "beat". The best it can do to them is Toxic, while many like Exploud or Flygon carry Fire moves to hit it. Therefore I'd only use it on teams weak to defog Flygon (if that's actually possible o-o) and there's not much of a reason to use it over especially Mega Steelix, but also Rhyperior and Seismitoad. Being Knock Off and Pursuit weak also doesn't help it much either. Compared to the other A Pokemon, I think it just doesn't fit in and B+ rank is a more suitable place for it.

If you're really that lazy that you can't read a paragraph: Bronzong for B+

 

[citro]

I think the dual screens set on Bronzong is probably most optimised to take advantage of the free turns it can grab by virtue of its typing and is ok on offense as the sole defensive pivot (obviously screens are v useful for stuff like moth, scrafty, tyrantrum Etc) but wouldn't be opposed to dropping it

Also Accelgor is B+ to me; it's the best spiker that doesn't also lose to our best and most common defogger (don't say Glalie) and so much better in practice than like, Golbat, clawitzer and eel, even though those might be low B ranks so I'm not sure if it's ok to compare them. But yeah spikes/encore/fgambit/uturn is a good set, and its really splashable so move it up imo

 

[Lord Death Man]

Totally with Bronzong dropping - definitely the worst thing about it is that it's so often put into situations where it'd like to check multiple things and can't because it wears itself down so bad on one. It's got a great set of resists with Levitate and it's typing, but it's just not that useful on balance or offense teams (dual screens, otr, suicide rocks are all usable but eh on offense) compared to other stealth rockers because of it's lack of offensive utility and it being a momentum sucker, and stall needs a more reliable answer to everything it checks. Sometimes it checks nothing because of how the team is stacked, which is Zong's other problem; it rarely checks just one thing because of how people make teams, so it's either trying too hard to stop everything and getting busted open for it, or doing nothing. It'd probably be one of the best things in B but I think that's the whole point of the new system.

Accelgor has a cool suicide spikes set, a decent offensive spikes set, and a decent pure offensive set; I think B+ is better than B for it because it's just a very solid mon with a hard to replicate niche for offense (Qwilfish gets bodied by special Flygon and is at the very least lead matchup based with a huge weakness to taunt, Accelgor is only really worried about scarf Cinccino.) The life orb offensive set is an amazing cleaner with great coverage (Focus Blast, Sludge Bomb and Energy Ball hit most resists), but sort of has a meta stacked against it right now, but that doesn't change how hard it can be for offensive teams to find a switch in to it - I think it's especially nice that it weakens the mons that are needed to check Venomoth. 145 speed means it can "replace" a scarf for teams desperate to compress roles, while also meaning it's encore can trap almost any set up sweeper which can be valuable. I think it's a massively underrated mon, but I can see it sticking in B just because of how prepared the meta is for bug-type attackers and how it can't do anything to stop defogs except suicide.