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Don't really understand the logic in ever using Roserade, like D makes a bit of sense but not C-. Granted this is self proclaimed terrible logic but having 0 relevancy to provide anything is kind of offputting to say the least.
Roserade is a great choice scarf user, especially in times of heavy offense. Its STAB options, coverage, and speed make it amazing at taking down fast and frail threats, or revenge kill slower dragon dance users like M-Gyarados and M-Altaria. I mean look how many fast offensive threats it can revenge or just outright KOs.
252 SpA Roserade Leaf Storm vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Mega Alakazam: 216-255 (83.3 - 98.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Roserade Sludge Bomb vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 276-326 (89.9 - 106.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Roserade Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 330-390 (99.6 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Roserade Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Lopunny: 214-253 (78.9 - 93.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Roserade Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mega Diancie: 422-500 (175.1 - 207.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Roserade Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Sceptile: 326-386 (116 - 137.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Roserade Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Manectric: 249-294 (88.6 - 104.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Technician Roserade Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 176 SpD Mega Scizor: 324-384 (94.4 - 111.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Technician Roserade Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 292-348 (82.9 - 98.8%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Roserade Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 470-554 (111.9 - 131.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Roserade Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 498-588 (126.3 - 149.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Roserade Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 300-354 (103 - 121.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Its actually amazing how clutch it can be against so many things and how handy it is considering scarf is very unexpected. And strong Grass and Poison STAB are hard to come by outside Mega Venusaur, who you cant use with other megas, meaning Roserade has a much better defined niche than people give it credit for. Even uninvested it has good special defense and typing to allow it to switch in on Scalds and Clefable Moonblasts quite easily, as well as absorb powder moves and Toxic even without Natural Cure, removes Toxic Spikes naturally, etc. It also acts as a hard check to Rotom-W, Azumarill and Keldeo, checks and revenges Manaphy, andTechnician HP Fire handles Bisharp, Ferrothorn, Scizor and Klefki, or HP Ice for Gliscor, Garchomp, Landorus-T and Dargonite.
Its main issues of course are being choice locked, Leaf Storm's SpA drop, poor defense, and AV Tornadus, Weavile, Heatran, Talonflame, Charizard and Volcarona. But nobody can tell me this thing deserves to be Unranked or has no useful niches. This thing wins me games. I honestly say its as good as C rank. It needs to at least be one higher than regular Venusaur who requires Sun support, which Roserade doesn't need to perform well, and is certainly better than Whimsicott or Shaymin.
As a reply to the Wobb nom that I don't really feel like pulling up right now, I do agree but I wanna say that Garchomp often runs toxic in its 4th moveslot now and it can easily just sit there and toxic and laugh at you while you can't do anything back. Sure you can encore it and then what? Switch into MZor and wait for Chomp's encore to wear off and DTail you? Or switch into Clef and get a CM/Moonblast off as they switch into their clef check?
If chomp decides to use toxic the turn you encore, then Wobbufett can encore it into toxic, and it use safegaurd to protect its teammates from toxic, basically rendering the mon useless for 2-3 turns. After safeguard is up, you can go into a setup sweeper of your choice to set up. Azumarill can belly drum up for free, which is devastating vs weakened teams, or at least teams that are azu weak, or you could go into your mega slowbro and get that +1 Special defense that it needs to beat mmane 1v1 when it switches in and proceed to sweep through the opponents team. Another option on Wobbufett that people are overlooking is the fact that it can use CUSTAP BERRY DESTINY BOND, which allows it to guarentee a kill vs attacker, volturner or sweeper, and maybe even guarantee yourself a win.(even shit immune to countercoat like msableye)
Roserade is a great choice scarf user, especially in times of heavy offense. Its STAB options, coverage, and speed make it amazing at taking down fast and frail threats, or revenge kill slower dragon dance users like M-Gyarados and M-Altaria. I mean look how many fast offensive threats it can revenge or just outright KOs.
252 SpA Roserade Leaf Storm vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Mega Alakazam: 216-255 (83.3 - 98.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Roserade Sludge Bomb vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 276-326 (89.9 - 106.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Roserade Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 330-390 (99.6 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Roserade Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Lopunny: 214-253 (78.9 - 93.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Roserade Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mega Diancie: 422-500 (175.1 - 207.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Roserade Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Sceptile: 326-386 (116 - 137.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Roserade Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Manectric: 249-294 (88.6 - 104.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Technician Roserade Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 176 SpD Mega Scizor: 324-384 (94.4 - 111.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Technician Roserade Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 292-348 (82.9 - 98.8%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Roserade Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 470-554 (111.9 - 131.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Roserade Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 498-588 (126.3 - 149.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Roserade Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 300-354 (103 - 121.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Its actually amazing how clutch it can be against so many things and how handy it is considering scarf is very unexpected. And strong Grass and Poison STAB are hard to come by outside Mega Venusaur, who you cant use with other megas, meaning Roserade has a much better defined niche than people give it credit for. Even uninvested it has good special defense and typing to allow it to switch in on Scalds and Clefable Moonblasts quite easily, as well as absorb powder moves and Toxic even without Natural Cure, removes Toxic Spikes naturally, etc. It also acts as a hard check to Rotom-W, Azumarill and Keldeo, checks and revenges Manaphy, andTechnician HP Fire handles Bisharp, Ferrothorn, Scizor and Klefki, or HP Ice for Gliscor, Garchomp, Landorus-T and Dargonite.
Its main issues of course are being choice locked, Leaf Storm's SpA drop, poor defense, and AV Tornadus, Weavile, Heatran, Talonflame, Charizard and Volcarona. But nobody can tell me this thing deserves to be Unranked or has no useful niches. This thing wins me games. I honestly say its as good as C rank. It needs to at least be one higher than regular Venusaur who requires Sun support, which Roserade doesn't need to perform well, and is certainly better than Whimsicott or Shaymin.
i could make a case explaining how whimsicott is much more useful than roserade but im at work. Roserade isnt really better than half the D stuff to me so moving it up to C is a huge exaggeration in my eyes.
i could make a case explaining how whimsicott is much more useful than roserade but im at work. Roserade isnt really better than half the D stuff to me so moving it up to C is a huge exaggeration in my eyes.
I may sound like I'm playing it up better than it is, and perhaps I am a bit, but thats more in response to the idea it should move down, which it absolutely shouldn't. And your Whimsicott comment is likely true, its just I'm unfamiliar with it and you are more unfamiliar with Roserade. If I had replays I'd show them but it really isn't as bad as you make it out to be is all, and we can leave it there.
Did someone bring up Scarf Roserade? Seriously, don't use that garbage that is outclassed as a revenge killer by virtually every other scarfer in the tier.
The main reason why Roserade is ranked is because of its ability to set up (reasonably fast) spikes and t-spikes in conjunction with its ability to take multiple hits and not be complete Will-O bait (the latter of which virtually every other defensively-orineted spiker/t-spiker is). Remember, Roserade has access to two semi-reliable coverage options in Synthesis and Natural Cure Rest. This means that, unlike a lot (not all) of its other competition for dual hazards (e.g. Nidoqueen, Forretress, Ferrothorn etc.), it has a lot of staying power while also not giving two f*cks about being burned (unlike the rest of the dual hazard users). I honestly don't know whether that is enough to warrant it staying in C- or not (should stay ranked tho regardless), it most certainly isn't enough for it to move up (and scarf is most certainly not a good reason for it to move up).
I normally don't pay much attention to these viability rankings, but I saw some discussion on regular sableye that i wanted to address. I have used it very extensively recently (see my recent RMT to learn more about regular sableye and its uses) and I think it does an astonishingly good job. If i based it off of my personal experience of 6-0'ing opponents with it I would rank it much higher, but I think a more rational ranking would be a C- or a C.
For reference, here is the direct C+P of my description of sableye
Divided (Sableye) @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp
- Recover
- Knock Off
Sableye is the linchpin to this team with its prankster attacks and ghost/dark typing to spinblock and take Psychic atacks. Prankster WoW is great for burning stuff, and Taunt allows me to shut down opposing set-up, hazards, defog, recovery, etc. Prankster recover is great for stalling the opponent, and Knock Off is surprisingly strong STAB with good utility by removing the opponents item. I didn't really need Sableye to be able to take physical attacks very well, but I did desperately need good special defense to tank hits from alakazam, starmie, gengar, etc. so I went essentially max max with a fairly simple EV spread. Although Sableye is generally able to take physical attacks if the opponent is burned, risking a miss is often unnecessary and regular Sableye's poor bulk can still be easily seen at times (for example, Sableye cannot switch into Gengar or LO Starmie directly).
It is not uncommon for sableye to find itself in a position to 1v1 the opposing team (especially offense) by spreading burns, taunting, and abusing prankster recover. However, if sableye is crucially important for something, never ever risk a WoW miss that could lose you the game. You must especially play carefully with T-spikes, because they are a double edged sword with sableye. Although the support helps sableye a lot and it can keep them up fairly consistently, it can also hurt you if you need to burn something other than a steel type or levitator, such as a Garchomp. Against Fairies that almost make sableye useless such as Clef or especially Diancie, use Sableye as a check to the opponent and to gain momentum by forcing those fairies in. I generally knock off the clef and then use it to get hazards, spin, etc., and I try to poison the Diancie with TSpikes so it gets continuously worn down every time it comes in. Another thing to note is that you need to play smartly with Recover. Although you can stall out the opponent with status + recover + taunt (and knock off for lefties etc.) it is sometimes not worth risking crits / random side effects. If you stall like this too often, Sableye won't be able to come out of the situation with 100% health (often around 60%) and then you lack the bulk to handle bigger threats later on. One very common situation you must learn to play is Sableye vs Defensive Starmie. If hazards are very very important, I always make sure to spinblock it unless I will lose sableye if I mispredict and then they will get to spin afterwards regardless. It helps a lot to get up 2 TSpikes and then force the Starmie in as it makes Spinblocking much easier. If this is not possible, however, I generally Knock it off and then utilize Taunt + WoW + Recover to stall it out depending on if they scald burn (I have played games where Sableye takes 10 scalds/discharges in a row and doesn't get burned/paralyzed). Taunt is key here to force the Starmie low, which works especially well with status. If Starmie switches and comes back in later on Heatran I just taunt it on the switch. l can whirlwind it with Skarm to prevent a recover, or just double with Tentacruel.
Alakazam
252 SpA Mega Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 103-122 (33.8 - 40.1%) -- 33.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Sableye Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Alakazam: 156-186 (62.1 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 110-130 (36.1 - 42.7%) -- 96.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Sableye Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Alakazam: 306-362 (121.9 - 144.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO Gengar
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 161-191 (52.9 - 62.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery Manectric
252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 144-169 (47.3 - 55.5%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery Starmie
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 185-218 (60.8 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Sableye Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 188-224 (71.7 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Starmie Scald vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 82-97 (26.9 - 31.9%) -- 34.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery Hoopa-U
252 Atk Life Orb burned Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 8 Def Sableye: 156-183 (51.3 - 60.1%) -- 89.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
In my experience I have found that sableye excells at things m-sableye does not do as well. With prankster taunt (M-Sab generally does not run this) and WoW + Recover its very good at shutting down fat mons and offense effectively. There are quite a few offense teams that rely on a lum (sd) sr lead such as Chomp or Lando-T to pressure out the sableye after it uses up its prankster WoW, and then later on be able to take it on with something that doesn't want to get burned like Azumarill or SubCM Keldeo. Regular sableye can not only prevent hazards with prankster taunt, but by maintaining prankster it is a major threat to most offensive attackers especially as it has prankster recover to stall out the opponent, or knock off to cripple the opponent or hit dark weaks like Gar/Zam.
It's not just a matter of getting outclassed; regular Sableye doesn't really offer that much to the meta to begin with, especially with the increase in Fairies, burn absorbers (in a sense), and people preparing for Mega Sableye, which only makes things much harder for Sableye. You say that running Mega Sableye means that you cannot run other Megas, but the opportunity cost of saddling a Sableye that cannot Mega Evolve on your team is arguably just as huge because you're not running something that could contribute more. How many threats can Prankster Wisp actually hold off nowadays compared to just a bulkier Wisp, and can Sableye burn / stallbreak better than say, Mew or bulky Talonflame? Sableye's not even a good enough spinblocker to warrant use over those two since Starmie drowns Sableye with ease (especially with Analytic) whereas Excadrill can 2HKO max Def Sableye on the switch even if it gets burned before the second attack.
I would argue, first of all, that although regular sableye is generally outclassed by mega sableye, it has a few key niche's that not only allow it to be passable and effective on a team that supports it well like mine, but also excels in such teams. The examples of Fairies like Clef / Diancie or all purpose burn absorbers (not just one time lum users like i mentioned earlier) that help people vs mega sableye do indeed defeat regular sableye as well (most of the time). However, many more times people don't prepare for a sableye maintaining prankster wisp / taunt and end up facing poorly against it. I'm not gonna say that sableye is good for any team. Rather, it certainly needs a solid team to have justified usage and can't just be slapped on anywhere like lati or keld can very often. In these cases however, sableye is actually a boon to the team by not only performing well but allowing greater freedom for the rest of the team by allowing a mega.
Sableye's not even a good enough spinblocker to warrant use over those two since Starmie drowns Sableye with ease (especially with Analytic) whereas Excadrill can 2HKO max Def Sableye on the switch even if it gets burned before the second attack.
For starmie, it is true that offensive starmie can spin on sableye provided the sableye does not get a safe switchin to it. However, one thing i see very often is a defensive starmie, often paired on balance/semistall teams or a bulky sand team. This starmie is so easily spinblocked and removed by sableye with taunt + knock off that you can easily hazard stack and pressure the opponent to the point of no recovery (sableye can also win when its burned, whereas mega sableye would have a tougher time due to the lack of prankster taunt to stop recover). As for excadrill, i find it to be a very poor spinner as the most common Stealth Rock users beat it (Hippo, Lando-t, Garchomp) so spinning becomes almost useless. For sableye, however, it again loses to sableye if it manages to get a free switch (so basically both starmie and exca lose to sab 1v1). Both also get worn down more easily as they are generally LO variants and always taking continuous damage when they attack. This way sableye doesn't really need to win 1v1 if you can just wear them down to the point where they will lose to hazards.
lol, 'spinblocker'. Haven't heard that one in forever. Unless you're facing Spikestacking offense, what you're actually blocking is Defog. From Latios. That 'Pranskter WoW before Mega' strategy is normally only used for the M-evo turn and it's a waste if you see a Charizard or Clefable on the enemy team. It can't even annoy offense properly when all of S-rank is unhindered by it and it has only a few good match-ups in A-ranks.
I honestly don't even care where normal Sab is ranked, I just can't believe someone seriously used the term 'spinblocker'. When that role becomes relevant again, we're definitely not using Sableye for it.
To me, this post clearly shows a lack of understanding of the OU Metagame. Although defog from Lati is common, its not the only form of hazard removal in ou, and to invalidate the role of a "spinblocker" is pretty foolish and shows a very one-sided view. I already discussed starmie as a spinner that has risen in usage and is certainly relevant to the ou metagame as much as lati@s. I also want to make a point that sableye can beat defog latios AND prevent hazards 1v1 as my SDef set lives a latios' LO draco from full, allowing you to taunt if necessary and still be safe to recover stall. By knocking off the opposing lati@s' LO you even more easily live a hit and knock them down very low where they are barely alive. You also beat some other defoggers such as Zapdos and can effectively defeat a lot of common hazard users. Sableye is not the only spinblocker in the ou metagame, one of the most relevant being Gengar which has been a staple on offense for a long time due to spinblocking + taunt for defog. Rapid Spin is crucially different from defog in that it does not remove your own hazards, which makes it very valuable to offensive AND defensive teams (Gamefreak, give us more ou viable spinners PLEASE!). In no way can you invalidate this role and thus remove from sableye (both mega and regular) one of its very positive attributes.
In some sense, I can also say "I think we have enough answers to stall lol, not exactly a point in togekiss' favor" or insert any other stallbreaker (it would a little far-fetched to insert Manaphy or Hoopa-U since they are the main ones but i could arguably say that for them as well if the original quote was to be valid). This isn't really a fair argument as your basically trying to say regular sableye is outclassed in stallbreaking (not that we have enough stallbreakers, i think you would also understand this argument doesn't really make sense), whereas it actually has a completely different niche and ability to stallbreak that cannot be ignored.
Mega Latios C -> A+
Sorry AM for a similar post last time. Anyway, it applies under this topic so I will disscuss my feelings again. When talking purely in terms of viability, mega latios is just as viable (more so) than regular latios and it has more options. The major benefit is that you have increased bulk compared to regular latios and do not need to take LO recoil which allows you to be able to better check threats such as keldeo, raikou, mega manectric, conkeldurr, slowbro, rotom-w and zapdos. Going along with this, it allows you to run substitute efectively because you wont need to be taking LO and SR damage throughout a game. Lastly, it is able to effectively run a DD set thanks to the bulk allowing it to set up more consistantly and safely than the regular would be able to do and while the DD set is gimmicky, it does have surprise factor and that is one of the reasons charizard is so terrifying to face. As far as it taking up a mega slot, that is a legitimate point to make but latios is an A+ mon itself and the mega only improves on what the LO variant can do (other than SLIGHTLY less damage output) but taking up a mega slot should have no bearing on the placement of a mon's viability when it should really come from how well it performs in the OU metagame.
Mega Latios C -> A+
Sorry AM for a similar post last time. Anyway, it applies under this topic so I will disscuss my feelings again. When talking purely in terms of viability, mega latios is just as viable (more so) than regular latios and it has more options. The major benefit is that you have increased bulk compared to regular latios and do not need to take LO recoil which allows you to be able to better check threats such as keldeo, raikou, mega manectric, conkeldurr, slowbro, rotom-w and zapdos. Going along with this, it allows you to run substitute efectively because you wont need to be taking LO and SR damage throughout a game. Lastly, it is able to effectively run a DD set thanks to the bulk allowing it to set up more consistantly and safely than the regular would be able to do and while the DD set is gimmicky, it does have surprise factor and that is one of the reasons charizard is so terrifying to face. As far as it taking up a mega slot, that is a legitimate point to make but latios is an A+ mon itself and the mega only improves on what the LO variant can do (other than SLIGHTLY less damage output) but taking up a mega slot should have no bearing on the placement of a mon's viability when it should really come from how well it performs in the OU metagame.
Mega Garchomp: B -> A+
Sorry AM for a similar post last time. Anyway, it applies under this topic so I will disscuss my feelings again. When talking purely in terms of viability, mega garchomp is just as viable (more so) than regular garchomp and it has more options. The major benefit is that you have increased bulk compared to regular garchomp and do not need to take LO recoil which allows you to be able to better check threats such as raikou, ferrothorn, scizor, zapdos, hoopa-unbound and skarmory. Going along with this, it allows you to run substitute efectively because you wont need to be taking LO and SR damage throughout a game. Lastly, it is able to effectively run a SD set thanks to the bulk allowing it to set up more consistantly and safely than the regular would be able to do and while the SD set is gimmicky, it does have surprise factor and that is one of the reasons bisharp is so terrifying to face. As far as it taking up a mega slot, that is a legitimate point to make but garchomp is an A+ mon itself and the mega only improves on what the LO variant can do (other than SLIGHTLY less damage output) but taking up a mega slot should have no bearing on the placement of a mon's viability when it should really come from how well it performs in the OU metagame.
Mega Garchomp: B -> A+
Sorry AM for a similar post last time. Anyway, it applies under this topic so I will disscuss my feelings again. When talking purely in terms of viability, mega garchomp is just as viable (more so) than regular garchomp and it has more options. The major benefit is that you have increased bulk compared to regular garchomp and do not need to take LO recoil which allows you to be able to better check threats such as raikou, ferrothorn, scizor, zapdos, hoopa-unbound and skarmory. Going along with this, it allows you to run substitute efectively because you wont need to be taking LO and SR damage throughout a game. Lastly, it is able to effectively run a SD set thanks to the bulk allowing it to set up more consistantly and safely than the regular would be able to do and while the SD set is gimmicky, it does have surprise factor and that is one of the reasons bisharp is so terrifying to face. As far as it taking up a mega slot, that is a legitimate point to make but garchomp is an A+ mon itself and the mega only improves on what the LO variant can do (other than SLIGHTLY less damage output) but taking up a mega slot should have no bearing on the placement of a mon's viability when it should really come from how well it performs in the OU metagame.
Yes, i do see where you are going with that but those two examples are not parallel. The difference is is that things like mega garchomp need more team support (such as sand for example) when compared to the regular (which is more splash-able but performs a different role when comparing it to the mega). Mega latios performs the Same role as LO latios with significantly more bulk and slightly less power, but also can effectively perform more roles like Sub plus 3 attacks, Sub CM, or DD therefore making it similarly viable (more so) than the regular (not S matereal or anything) and I feel that it should be ranked accordingly.
Mega Latios is trash. The benefits it provides are very marginal while eating up your Mega, making it pretty worthless when LO Latios doesn't restrict teambuilding. I still think it should be unranked because I'd rather use anything in D-rank before it.
Also DD Mega Latios is not an argument for its viability when it's outclassed by literally every Dragon Dancer ever.
Mega Latios is trash. The benefits it provides are very marginal while eating up your Mega, making it pretty worthless when LO Latios doesn't restrict teambuilding. I still think it should be unranked because I'd rather use anything in D-rank before it.
Not necisarily true because it is the fastest DDer and even though running max speed wont necessarily help, you can invest less in speed (while hitting similar speed tiers to other DDers) and more in bulk to make it easier to set up with (and it has more of a surprise factor than zard x and guessing the wrong zard
Has been proven to be detrimental to teams so not expecting DD M Latios can allow you to do major damage to opposing special walls).
Yes it does. If I have to jump through hoops to make something work it shouldn't be anything higher than C because it only works on select builds that makes it difficult to utilize effectively. And you're asking for fucking A+, which is for shit I can slap onto a team without much hassle.
Yeah it does. If something is extremely restrictive towards what options you can have for your team, it leads to an inherent drop in viability as there is less incentive to use it over anything else. Splashability is part of what you consider when thinking about a 'mon's viability, and Mega Latios has none of that.
Not necisarily true because it is the fastest DDer and even though running max speed wont necessarily help, you can invest less in speed (while hitting similar speed tiers to other DDers) and more in bulk to make it easier to set up with (and it has more of a surprise factor than zard x and guessing the wrong zard
Has been proven to be detrimental to teams so not expecting DD M Latios can allow you to do major damage to opposing special walls).
DD Mega Latios is trash as it doesn't outpace anything notable that Zard doesn't, doesn't get ExtremeSpeed like Dragonite does and doesn't have amazing typing like Mega Altaria does. Also, surprise value on a trash set is really crappy reasoning as it doesn't change the fact that it is horrifically outclassed by every other DD user. Also, if someone switches a special wall in on your DD, they'll move to their physical tank and just wall you on that side instead. The surprise is there for one turn, and then its gone again once they know what it is. Mega Latios lacks ways of breaking through its checks/counters like the other DD users do (Mega Latios can't afford to carry HP Fire as it is stupidly weak unboosted, leaving it at the mercy of Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Bronzong etc.. However, Mega Altaria can afford to carry Fire Blast if the team handles Heatran, Mega Zard can afford to carry Iron Tail/Earthquake if the team struggles with Mega Altaria/Heatran, and Dragonite carries Fire Punch, Superpower or Earthquake according to the team's needs.), and this severely hinders its ability to act as a reliable sweeper.
Not necisarily true because it is the fastest DDer and even though running max speed wont necessarily help, you can invest less in speed (while hitting similar speed tiers to other DDers) and more in bulk to make it easier to set up with (and it has more of a surprise factor than zard x and guessing the wrong zard
Has been proven to be detrimental to teams so not expecting DD M Latios can allow you to do major damage to opposing special walls).
Even if you manage to surprise your opponent, DD Mega Latios is far from being a threat when compared to other DDers like Mega Altaria and Mega Zard X due to it's weak as hell STABs. Even at +1, it's incapable of putting in much of a dent in anything bulky, even failing to OHKO defensive Mega Venusaur.
+1 252+ Atk Mega Latios Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Venusaur: 270-320 (74.1 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Mega Latios Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 151-178 (35.9 - 42.3%) -- 92.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Latios Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 127-150 (32.2 - 38%) -- 1.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Mega Latios Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 189-223 (47.9 - 56.5%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Completely outclassed as a DDer, and is most definitely not a reason for it to jump all the way up to A+. I think this discussion should really just drop. Noms for Mega Latios to go up to A+ because of a DD set is silly and is not productive in any way.
Edit: Mega Latios C -> Unranked
Ironic that I am posting this but after all the discussion, I realized why the mega was not ranked A+, how Mega Latios poses no Significant advantage to LO variants, that DD set is shit, and how the mega is nowhere near as splashable as the regular. There is no reason to legitimately use Mega Latios over the life orb variant.
But you don't jump through hoops just to use it. It is simply a better option when compared to the LO and is there if you don't have another mega and already have a latios on your team. Every time you use LO lati, you could theoretically use the mega as well;however, when building with the mega, you have more viable options than with the LO variant. So not wanting to slap it onto a team has no bearing on its viability. I would also like to point out that an A Rank is "...Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the OU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits."
If latios can fit this, than the mega sure as hell can because this is to specifically rank the viability of a mon in OU and M Latios can do just as much as the regular ergo it should be A+ with its regular form.
Dude. The definitions are awful reasons to use as they are just guidelines. Not to mention that Mega Latios doesn't even meet the definition in the first place, as it is not fantastic, it struggles to sweep significant portions of the metagame and it needs an entire team built around it to be used effectively due to the fact it takes up your mega slot for a suboptimal DD user.
Goddammit we're back to rank-definition-as-reasoning.
If you are using Mega Latios, you cannot use any other Mega that would very likely benefit whatever build you are using and would still work with LO normal Latios. There is almost no reason to use the thing because the LO set exists and is way easier to build with.
EDIT: Re-nominating Mega Latios for D because fuck this thing.
Before I read 3 pages of Mega Latios discussion that's more than likely gonna go nowhere I'll address some points I've seen.
First off, let's stop using rank definitions I took them out for a reason originally cause to put it bluntly they're garbage.
Second, contrary to the OU Forum hype in bandwagoning the fuck out of popular opinion that I'm seeing, Mega Latios isn't shit. Yeah don't drop your jaw too hard to the floor on that one cause threads known to bust out jaw droppers for better or worse a lot. However, there is no legitimate reason to use it. The most legitimate reason to use Mega Latios, is for me to use Mega Latios, and if I'm using Mega Latios its to troll Vertex or bludz in a test match for shits and giggles.
Third, naw you don't have more viable options with Mega Latios. If your logic is that if you still have the mega slot you can use Mega Latios is dumb as hell when we got stuff like M-Alt + Char-X in the tier.
Fourth, I'm loving these solid replays on these nominations.
Fifth, I have no fifth ranking team can decide on whatever if they see all of this as I see TDK is watching in the shadows with his Tangrowth besides him aka TheEnder. gg
Yeah it does. If something is extremely restrictive towards what options you can have for your team, it leads to an inherent drop in viability as there is less incentive to use it over anything else. Splashability is part of what you consider when thinking about a 'mon's viability, and Mega Latios has none of that.
DD Mega Latios is trash as it doesn't outpace anything notable that Zard doesn't, doesn't get ExtremeSpeed like Dragonite does and doesn't have amazing typing like Mega Altaria does. Also, surprise value on a trash set is really crappy reasoning as it doesn't change the fact that it is horrifically outclassed by every other DD user. Also, if someone switches a special wall in on your DD, they'll move to their physical tank and just wall you on that side instead. The surprise is there for one turn, and then its gone again once they know what it is. Mega Latios lacks ways of breaking through its checks/counters like the other DD users do (Mega Latios can't afford to carry HP Fire as it is stupidly weak unboosted, leaving it at the mercy of Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Bronzong etc.. However, Mega Altaria can afford to carry Fire Blast if the team handles Heatran, Mega Zard can afford to carry Iron Tail/Earthquake if the team struggles with Mega Altaria/Heatran, and Dragonite carries Fire Punch, Superpower or Earthquake according to the team's needs.), and this severely hinders its ability to act as a reliable sweeper.
I don't deny that it limit your teams options compared to the LO vairent, its best teammate is keldeo which is not a mega so it doesn't hinder building that much. Your point about its splashability is legitimate As well as your point about the DD set.
MLatios talk aside, i wanna talk about a mon that is really a bit underrated and i think it should move up to B-.
I'm talking about Staraptor. This guy hits very hard and even though birdspam is not as good as it was lets say back in early oras Staraptor really is actually somewhat hard to stop. Yes, it falls on its knees from priority, and... yes it is kinda frail... but it is a surprisingly hard hitting mon with its great ability, Reckless. Witness Jolly Staraptor doing 51% with a close combat to Mega Metagross, who hates taking that much damage.
252 Atk Choice Band Staraptor Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 130-154 (43.1 - 51.1%) -- 54.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
I know this sounds stupid, but steel type mons like Mega Metagross actually can have a bit of trouble walling Staraptor. And it also takes out Metagross if its not mega on the switchin, which really isnt a rare case as Metagross would probably be considered a soft counter to Staraptor. Also, witness "birdspam counters" losing or taking a lot of damage to Bandraptor on switchin. Staraptor can even beat Hippo if it doesnt have Stone Edge, as some prefer Toxic or Roar.
252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 213-252 (50.7 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Staraptor Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 116-137 (34.7 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (with a bit of prior damage, im talking like 15-20% damage, Staraptor kills Skarm on switchin.)
-1 252+ Atk Reckless Staraptor Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Manectric: 195-231 (69.3 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock. (Mega Man can beat Staraptor, but Adamant Scarf takes a gigantic chunk out of him.
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 171-202 (43.4 - 51.2%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Staraptor hits very hard and literally 2HKO's most of the metagame with Band or it outspeeds and kills threats like Non-scarfed Keldeo, Latios/Latias, Scarf Kyurem with a bit of prior damage, etc. Now, one thing i must say is that Staraptor does have a huge threat, and that threat is obviously Tankchomp. Birdspam isnt meant to take on Tankchomp, but Staraptor really just is a waste of space if Tankchomp is still alive or even on a team. I think Staraptor deserves B- just because it has a surprisingly low amount of switchins on its band set and can kill speedy threats with its scarf set. The problem with Staraptor though is that if you fuck up with a move you will face the consequences and predicting is really key with Raptor, just like it is with every other mon. All in all, B- imo.
I think it should definitely be ranked, but perhaps only at a C or C+
I pretty much agree with the argument that DD Latios is pretty much wholly outclassed as a DD user as the surprise value is barely effective and it only has its different typing to account for its viability. However, I have used 4 atks mixed latios very effectively and it is certainly useful over LO latios. Although LO certainly does not take away your mega slot and hits slightly harder, it lacks longevity as its constantly taking 10% from LO and also has much less bulk than M-Latios. On top of this, considering how common knock off is in this metagame, M-Latios' extra bulk and weakening knock off while also tanking random dragon hits better is extremely handy. I have even done tricks like killing something without mega'ing to lure in a weavile that feels safe to knock off, while i can mega and sponge the hit to ko back. Obviously this is pretty situational and LO Latios is certainly much more cost effective and consistent than any variant of M-Latios, but i feel M-Latios has its own bag of tricks that warrant it a C or C+ rank in the viability rankings.
Idk why Latios is even up for discussion still. It comes up every few pages, and it's the same "unrank it!!" "A rank!!!" "Leave in c!!" argument every single time. Unranking it is stupid, and a high rank discounts the opportunity cost that does indeed exist.
MLatios talk aside, i wanna talk about a mon that is really a bit underrated and i think it should move up to B-.
I'm talking about Staraptor. This guy hits very hard and even though birdspam is not as good as it was lets say back in early oras Staraptor really is actually somewhat hard to stop. Yes, it falls on its knees from priority, and... yes it is kinda frail... but it is a surprisingly hard hitting mon with its great ability, Reckless. Witness Jolly Staraptor doing 51% with a close combat to Mega Metagross, who hates taking that much damage.
252 Atk Choice Band Staraptor Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 130-154 (43.1 - 51.1%) -- 54.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
I know this sounds stupid, but steel type mons like Mega Metagross actually can have a bit of trouble walling Staraptor. And it also takes out Metagross if its not mega on the switch in, which really isnt a rare case as Metagross would probably be considered a soft counter to Staraptor. Also, witness "birdspam counters" losing or taking a lot of damage to Bandraptor on switchin. Staraptor can even beat Hippo if it doesnt have Stone Edge, as some prefer Toxic or Roar.
252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 213-252 (50.7 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Staraptor Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 116-137 (34.7 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (with a bit of prior damage, im talking like 15-20% damage, Staraptor kills Skarm on switchin.)
-1 252+ Atk Reckless Staraptor Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Manectric: 195-231 (69.3 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock. (Mega Man can beat Staraptor, but Adamant Scarf takes a gigantic chunk out of him.
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 171-202 (43.4 - 51.2%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Staraptor hits very hard and literally 2HKO's most of the metagame with Band or it outspeeds and kills threats like Non-scarfed Keldeo, Latios/Latias, Scarf Kyurem with a bit of prior damage, etc. Now, one thing i must say is that Staraptor does have a huge threat, and that threat is obviously Tankchomp. Birdspam isnt meant to take on Tankchomp, but Staraptor really just is a waste of space if Tankchomp is still alive or even on a team. I think Staraptor deserves B- just because it has a surprisingly low amount of switchins on its band set and can kill speedy threats with its scarf set. The problem with Staraptor though is that if you fuck up with a move you will face the consequences and predicting is really key with Raptor, just like it is with every other mon. All in all, B- imo.
I second this just because even though it faces stiff competition with talonflame, it does hit harder and thanks to close combat and STAB double edge it can handle birdspam counters/checks outside of hippo and PhysDef Lando-T, while not being 4x weak to SR.
Staraptor C+ -> B-
Just blacklist latios-mega so we never have to go through this shit ever again.
Other thoughts:
Roserade is only good as a hazard aetter. Scarf set is awful. Just use it to sleep stuff, get up hazards and then utilize natural cure rest.
Normal Sableye isn't bad at all, the fact that MSAB usually waits to mega unless hazards are about to go up just shows how much utility there is in prankster.
Nidoking is way better than its sister in OU as the only reason to use them is for Dat sheer force. Poison jab and sucker are both great.
I still think Hoopa-C ought to drop, but not to unranked.I think put it in C, it can befriend latios-mega.
Bliss is terrible unless you run sets with like fire blast or shadow ball. D for me.
And yeah raise wobb to goth's rank or drop goth. Wobb is less deadweight 8n fewer matchups, but not as good vs stall. Overall I prefer Wobb but they are probably equally good. So yeah that's all.
Just blacklist latios-mega so we never have to go through this shit ever again.
Other thoughts:
Roserade is only good as a hazard aetter. Scarf set is awful. Just use it to sleep stuff, get up hazards and then utilize natural cure rest.
Normal Sableye isn't bad at all, the fact that MSAB usually waits to mega unless hazards are about to go up just shows how much utility there is in prankster.
Nidoking is way better than its sister in OU as the only reason to use them is for Dat sheer force. Poison jab and sucker are both great.
I still think Hoopa-C ought to drop, but not to unranked.I think put it in C, it can befriend latios-mega.
Bliss is terrible unless you run sets with like fire blast or shadow ball. D for me.
And yeah raise wobb to goth's rank or drop goth. Wobb is less deadweight 8n fewer matchups, but not as good vs stall. Overall I prefer Wobb but they are probably equally good. So yeah that's all.
I agree except for the Nidos and blissy. With lando-I gone, nidoking has a niche now but nidoqueen is not comparable as it is primarily used for SR and toxic spikes as well as being able to tank hits and hit hard with STAB sheer force sludge wave and earth power. They are both fine where they are. Also, blissy is fine because it is able to hold lefties while not being as passive as chansey so it should also stay where it is (because these things were factored in for its initial ranking).
